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  1. #1
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    New 29er SS Build: Eccentric BB, Hub or Sliders?

    I am slowly contemplating a new 29er SS build. This will be my first SS build.

    I understand the different chain tensioning systems, but I am not clear on which one is best.

    I read the FAQ, and spent a few months lurking here.

    EBBs seems to have creaking or ovalizing issues
    Eccentric Hubs selection appears to be limited in selection and popularity
    Horizontal sliders appears to be difficult to adjust with the discs

    If you were to start from scratch, which one would you pick?

    Budget is not an issue, but no creaking is essential. I run tubeless, so flats are a rare issue and I don't need to remove the wheel for my car rack (I use bolt-on skewers anyway).

    The bikes I am considering at this point are
    - One of the Niner offerings
    - Moots
    - Linskey

    Thanks!

  2. #2
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    Slidders everything else is just mediocre and add Misfit to your List and drop the rest and oh yeah no tinkering with disc when they are paragon slidders

  3. #3
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    I have paragons on my Waltworks and have had great luck.

  4. #4
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    "Sliders" aren't hard to adjust with discs - you're thinking of horizontal dropouts (Karate Monkey for example). I'd go with the sliding dropouts if I were to build a new bike. With the exception of Voodoo or Kona, which are known to slip.

  5. #5
    bap
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    another vote for sliders (paragon).

    I have EBB on my XXIX and sliders on my other bike and certainly prefer the sliders. It's more flexible and disc brakes are easy to setup.

    another plus of Paragon sliders is that they are vertical dropouts on the sliders so you don't have to mess with super-torquing bolts or getting cam lock skewers...just slide the wheel in and use any skewer of your choice.

  6. #6
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    Just to mix it up ...

    I've got a new SS (Singular Swift) and it's got the Phil Wood EBB and it has been VERY easy to use, hasn't slipped or creaked so far. I did some very steep climbs in dry conditions and it was fine. I've got the screws at 5.5Nm and they're holding the EBB fine. I admit that I was quite concerned about it at first - but so far so good. I'll also add that I changed cogs and the EBB was quicker and easier to adjust than the sliders.

    Now, I've also got a Monocog Flight with sliders and i think they're pretty solid as well... I think it depends on the frame and set-up as well as the type of riding you do.

    I had a Felt Nine Solo and the EBB was super stiff from the first day then one of the set screws snapped in the hole. I managed to try to to make it work - but I never really liked the ride so I just got the Swift. I would say that if you're dealing with a nice EBB (i.e. Phil Wood) then you'll likely have fewer problems...

    As for ovalizing the BB - just be easy on it - follow the torque specs and it'll be fine.

    But I can understand why some don't like the whole EBB thing.

    S
    "You know how they make aluminum bike frames? They take steel and suck out all the soul..."

  7. #7
    PeT
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    Quote Originally Posted by flafonta
    If you were to start from scratch, which one would you pick?
    I did start from scratch and picked the eccentric hub, the White Industries ENO. I tried it out before having my frame built, so knew it was reliable and top quality. My frame was built with no moving parts -- no EBB, no sliders. Not surprisingly, it rides dead quiet, but for the buzz of the WI ENO freewheel. The ENO hub builds up symmetrically into a very strong wheel and since I own a large wrench and an ENO freewheel remover, gear changes (including chain tensioning) are probably faster than most could pull off using a freehub setup. After two years, thousands of miles, and my first win ever in a mtb race using that bike, I have zero regrets about going with the ENO hub.

    (I try not to like the fact that my choice is not fashionable, but I can't help but like that a little bit...)
    "The plural of anecdote is not data." -- Attributed to various people in a variety of forms, but always worth remembering...

  8. #8
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    Interestingly, I must admit that of all the rants on SS tensioning issues... the ENO seems to sit quietly unnoticed off to the side and just gets the job done... I've heard the least complaints about the ENO of all the other systems.

    S
    "You know how they make aluminum bike frames? They take steel and suck out all the soul..."

  9. #9
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    I'm a convert to sliders.

    There are pluses and minuses for all the systems, but I've warmed up to the Paragon sliders on my Moots.
    Not all sliders are equal. Search your options here on MTBR and you may see some complaints (based on your list). Paragons are top notch, and their new hardware (not pictured) is a thumb screw/4mm allen that is super easy to adjust with the tools you carry on the trail.

    No creaks, no slipping, so BS. Takes just a few minutes to tension the chain.

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  10. #10
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    Bastard....

    (see below)
    Last edited by teamdicky; 08-10-2009 at 03:42 AM.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeT
    I did start from scratch and picked the eccentric hub, the White Industries ENO. I tried it out before having my frame built, so knew it was reliable and top quality. My frame was built with no moving parts -- no EBB, no sliders. Not surprisingly, it rides dead quiet, but for the buzz of the WI ENO freewheel. The ENO hub builds up symmetrically into a very strong wheel and since I own a large wrench and an ENO freewheel remover, gear changes (including chain tensioning) are probably faster than most could pull off using a freehub setup. After two years, thousands of miles, and my first win ever in a mtb race using that bike, I have zero regrets about going with the ENO hub.

    (I try not to like the fact that my choice is not fashionable, but I can't help but like that a little bit...)
    But are the disk brake versions more difficult to work with? I believe you use v-brakes? Post some pictures!

  12. #12
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    Have you considered a Black Cat? The swinger dropouts those bikes have work great, no slipping or creaking, and has a vertical dropout which makes disc set up a snap. His (Todd at Black Cat) bikes are really nice as well. I know I have seen his dropout design on a Hunter before, so perhaps he makes them available to other builders? Worth a look.
    www.blackcatbicycles.com

  13. #13
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    Those black cat frames are sweet. Uber cool dropout design.

  14. #14
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    I have sliders on my unit and they're completely trouble free. So when I decided to build a 29er that was one of the requirements. I went with a misfit diSSent, but it looks like you want Ti. Nothing wrong with that, Ti rules.

  15. #15
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    I am a Larger rider and I just have a mental block or some thing scares me about sliders. I run an EBB.

    If you are really looking at Moots I would also to tell you to check out KentEriksen.com
    Cause he is the founder, but has been doing his own thing for about 2 years or so. Only makes about 200 frames year.

    Please note I love Ti.

  16. #16
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    Since you've already got bolt-on skewers, why not go horizontal dropouts? No moving parts to worry about and once you bolt the rear wheel on, it's not moving.
    Pivot Mach429

  17. #17
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    I wouldn't rule out EBB. The problems seem to stem either from the creaking split/wedge variety or the ovalizing set screw style. The EBB that has neither of these problems is the split shell. The split shell has the advantage of holding the EBB insert with almost 99% of the available surface, which simply leaves no room for movement or creaking. The only negative post I have ever seen was when "he who must not be named" (no Sparty I am not comparing you to Voldemort; oops ) used too much beer torque ans snapped off one of the bosses. The split shell has two bolts and you never have to touch anything else, ie disc sliders, when adjusting your chain tension. Sliders are uber cool because they are single speed specific, unlike EBBs that came from the tandem world, but there is really no comparison in simplicity of use, if you are using disc brakes.
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    Just one more rep and I get the toaster!

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by teamdicky
    Aaaa-haaaa...

    I found a picture of the new Paragon hardware:
    Here's Dicky's invisi-picture of the new Paragon Hardware without all the invisi part (edit: by uploading this one it appears to have resolved dicky's invisi-picture issue). Note, this is on a Moots frame (mine) and see those drop out hoods? That beefy junction helps keep the sliders from creaking and flexing like that of some other designs out there. Also, with the throw of this slider design I can run 34 or 35 x19,18,17,16,15 with a single chain (no half link/or adding/removing links).

    My buddy with an ebb has 2 problems with it. First is to get the gear choices he wants he has to use a half-link (not a big deal, but kinda hard to come by without pre-planning). The second is that he has to tweak his saddle height and fore/aft when swapping gears. Neither are a big deal, but something the other designs don't require. (Note: generally he's swapping between two gears)

    I also have a WhiteInd EccEno hub one another ss and it's been issue free for 4 years. Bomber, just sucks swapping out freewheels vs cogs. I'd say that is it's only downside.
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    Last edited by Johnny5; 08-09-2009 at 08:55 PM.

  19. #19
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    Sorry, maybe I'm dense here. But how are sliders any more difficult to use with disc brakes than an EBB? The slider comprises both the disk mount and the dropout so there is never any adjustment needed. The only possible thing I can think of is if you zip tie your hydraulic line to the frame and have to adjust the line a quarter inch?

    Quote Originally Posted by aka brad
    I wouldn't rule out EBB. The problems seem to stem either from the creaking split/wedge variety or the ovalizing set screw style. The EBB that has neither of these problems is the split shell. The split shell has the advantage of holding the EBB insert with almost 99% of the available surface, which simply leaves no room for movement or creaking. The only negative post I have ever seen was when "he who must not be named" (no Sparty I am not comparing you to Voldemort; oops ) used too much beer torque ans snapped off one of the bosses. The split shell has two bolts and you never have to touch anything else, ie disc sliders, when adjusting your chain tension. Sliders are uber cool because they are single speed specific, unlike EBBs that came from the tandem world, but there is really no comparison in simplicity of use, if you are using disc brakes.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeT
    I did start from scratch and picked the eccentric hub, the White Industries ENO. I tried it out before having my frame built, so knew it was reliable and top quality. My frame was built with no moving parts -- no EBB, no sliders. Not surprisingly, it rides dead quiet, but for the buzz of the WI ENO freewheel. The ENO hub builds up symmetrically into a very strong wheel and since I own a large wrench and an ENO freewheel remover, gear changes (including chain tensioning) are probably faster than most could pull off using a freehub setup. After two years, thousands of miles, and my first win ever in a mtb race using that bike, I have zero regrets about going with the ENO hub.

    (I try not to like the fact that my choice is not fashionable, but I can't help but like that a little bit...)
    Please get your terminology straight - you have an ENO eccentric hub. There's also a non-eccentric ENO hub, which is just a normal single speed hub. It's great that you can get your freewheels off easily, I never can although that's always with non-White Industries freewheels since my WI freewheel just keeps going and going and has never needed to be replaced. Still, if I had to start over, I'd go with a Hope hub and sliding dropouts because the cassette style hubs are easier to change gearing on and the cogs are a lot cheaper to replace than a WI freewheel.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_slacker
    Sorry, maybe I'm dense here. But how are sliders any more difficult to use with disc brakes than an EBB? The slider comprises both the disk mount and the dropout so there is never any adjustment needed. The only possible thing I can think of is if you zip tie your hydraulic line to the frame and have to adjust the line a quarter inch?
    Well, for one when you need to adjust chain tension, you have to loosen 4 bolts, two on either side and then make sure you adjust both sides equally, normally requiring chain tensioners on both sides. Also, while not an ease issue, sliders are by definition weaker than dropouts that are welded to the stays.
    Just one more rep and I get the toaster!

  22. #22
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    voodoo sliders

    Quote Originally Posted by Thor29
    "Sliders" aren't hard to adjust with discs - you're thinking of horizontal dropouts (Karate Monkey for example). I'd go with the sliding dropouts if I were to build a new bike. With the exception of Voodoo or Kona, which are known to slip.
    I have a Voodoo and fought with the slipping sliders on two different frames. Then i was supplied some steel washers instead of the aluminum ones and I could get the initial torque required without the Al deforming. My first mount on them and I had no slipping and have not touched it since. This is not how the process went with the Al washers.... So maybe that's the key, steel washers that you can torque down harder than the aluminum ones.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by aka brad
    Well, for one when you need to adjust chain tension, you have to loosen 4 bolts, two on either side and then make sure you adjust both sides equally, normally requiring chain tensioners on both sides.
    Yeah, it takes me a few more minutes effort to do my sliders than my EBB (for me there's six bolts), but I was wondering about this:


    Quote Originally Posted by aka brad
    Also, while not an ease issue, sliders are by definition weaker than dropouts that are welded to the stays.
    I'm not sure this could be assumed to be true considering I've never seen a broken slider, the bolts are massive, and the attachment of the static portion of the slider to the seatstay is just like any other dropout.
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by aka brad
    Well, for one when you need to adjust chain tension, you have to loosen 4 bolts, two on either side and then make sure you adjust both sides equally, normally requiring chain tensioners on both sides. Also, while not an ease issue, sliders are by definition weaker than dropouts that are welded to the stays.
    Both of those are weaknesses of sliders, but neither really has anything to do with disc brakes.

    In practice all you do is pull back on the rear wheel till the chain doesn't have a ton of slack and tighten the bolts a little. Make sure the chainline is straight, make adjustments and tighten all the way down. Then you don't touch it literally for months, until there is massive chain stretch/slack or you change rear cogs. Set it and forget it.

  25. #25
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    I highly recommend a Misfit diSSent (FE) steel frame bike that competes in wieght with an aluminum bike at 1/3 the price of Ti, it has a great slider drop out design that has your brake caliper mounted to the slider so their is no brake adjustment after the intial installation, great riding geometry. plus Pete, the owner is a super cool take care of You kinda guy!!!

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