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  1. #1
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    The importants of POE on a SS hub

    Are points of engagements worth the price? Just trying to con myself into getting a set of Profile elite 204 POE hubs lol...

    Currently running a Chris King and a Hope single speed hub... King is 72 so 204 is a big jump and will sound wicked...

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    I have 32 on my DTswiss 240s. Perfectly happy and we ride some super tech stuff and do a fair bit of wanna-be trials. 16 POE was not ok.
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    i ran 24 POE for a while....it was meh...

    now i run 120 POE...it is awesome..

    but I think anything around 70 POE is pretty good..IMO
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    You've gotta hate the dead spots and slack in a low POE hub or freewheel, it just feels sloppy.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by nmanchin View Post
    I have 32 on my DTswiss 240s. Perfectly happy and we ride some super tech stuff and do a fair bit of wanna-be trials. 16 POE was not ok.
    I agree... The 36 points on the DT Swiss Hubs (you need an upgraded star ratchet) is necessary. The slow engagement of the standard ratchets is ridiculous. 36 points is about as low as I would go, but the DTs are light, pretty tough and easily serviced. I think that's a pretty damned good compromise. I have a set of kings which are noticably faster engagement at 72 points. I think once you get over 72, there is a point of diminishing returns. The king feels almost instant.

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    I think my Am Claasics are 24. No complaints.

    New build with a disc cog has gazillion-infinity POE.

  7. #7
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    I prefer the lowest POE that I can find. If the crank engagement is instantaneous, I find that I was able to get further through technical sections before eating ****, which was immeasurably more painful than just walking the section after slow engagement caused me to dab.

    Also, I noticed I got moving faster out of corners and slow sections, which is scary. Whatever happened to going slow and enjoying the smell of the dog **** the hikers didn't pick up?

  8. #8
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    meh...I know I'm in the minority here, but I think high POE is overrated. Maybe I don't find myself in situations where I really need it very often (i.e. ratcheting up climbs?)...or maybe I just don't understand why high POE is so awesome.

    I've had a high engagement hub for two years, an I9 SS hub (that was plagued with problems and eventually got rid of it), and I'm currently rotating between two different wheelsets (race and non-race) one with an American Classic and another with a DT240 (without the upgrade)....both of these hubs are fine. They don't make me any faster or slower or cause me to not clear anything on the trail because they have less engagement....if anything I overall feel faster because they (the DT and the AM) seem to spin with way less mechanical resistance than what my I9 had (it's all about maintaining momentum right?). And there's never anytime where I think "OH man! I wish I had more engagement right now!!".

    again, just my opinion....maybe if hopped on a super high engagement hub like the Profile the lightbulb would go off in my head and i'd see the light. So if anyone has one they'd like to let me demo for a few SS races I'd be happy to try it out
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  9. #9
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    I think it depends on where and what we ride. When I am real fit and riding stuff where I ratchet my way through tricky sections, the quicker engagement of my updated 240s is noticeably better than it was before I swapped it out. I can see in those situations why my buddies love the Kings they're on. When I'm not in those situations, the higher POE doesn't really matter except that it makes for a louder hub, eh.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrone Shoelaces View Post
    meh...I know I'm in the minority here, but I think high POE is overrated. Maybe I don't find myself in situations where I really need it very often (i.e. ratcheting up climbs?)...or maybe I just don't understand why high POE is so awesome.

    I've had a high engagement hub for two years, an I9 SS hub (that was plagued with problems and eventually got rid of it), and I'm currently rotating between two different wheelsets (race and non-race) one with an American Classic and another with a DT240 (without the upgrade)....both of these hubs are fine. They don't make me any faster or slower or cause me to not clear anything on the trail because they have less engagement....if anything I overall feel faster because they (the DT and the AM) seem to spin with way less mechanical resistance than what my I9 had (it's all about maintaining momentum right?). And there's never anytime where I think "OH man! I wish I had more engagement right now!!".

    again, just my opinion....maybe if hopped on a super high engagement hub like the Profile the lightbulb would go off in my head and i'd see the light. So if anyone has one they'd like to let me demo for a few SS races I'd be happy to try it out
    I'm with you.
    I've been riding a DT 240S hub for 4+ years and I don't really notice any difference or increased difficulty in technical sections than when I use(d) a WI Eno which is 36 POE.

    If I was riding trials I might feel differently, but for technical New England singletrack it doesn't make a difference.

  11. #11
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    So higher engagement=more mechanical resistance therefore a lost of momentum which in Singlespeed is key. Even though I like the instance power of a higher poe hub this would be a bummer.

    I need to test my king vs hope to see which one coast better my kings feels better on climbs for sure. Thanks for everyones input.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5power View Post
    So higher engagement=more mechanical resistance therefore a lost of momentum which in Singlespeed is key. Even though I like the instance power of a higher poe hub this would be a bummer.

    I need to test my king vs hope to see which one coast better my kings feels better on climbs for sure. Thanks for everyones input.
    Theoretically, yes, but will you notice that resistance in real life? I doubt it, and only when you're not pedaling. It's just the other extreme of the argument.

    I think the biggest advantage of high POE hubs and freewheels is they sound cool when you're coasting.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrone Shoelaces View Post
    ...And there's never anytime where I think "OH man! I wish I had more engagement right now!!"
    I have had these moments in technical terrain where I've felt like I could've used better engagement. Particularly when I was riding American Classic hubs. Ratcheting over things is much more difficult to time and I feel almost out of control trying to do it. Getting on the gas out of the corner is noticable as well. Granted, I'm used to riding and perhaps relying upon the quick engagement of a King. I suppose before I had the king, I've always been fine, so maybe this is a case of; the grass is always greener... I dunno.

    Quote Originally Posted by EBasil View Post
    I think it depends on where and what we ride. When I am real fit and riding stuff where I ratchet my way through tricky sections, the quicker engagement of my updated 240s is noticeably better than it was before I swapped it out. I can see in those situations why my buddies love the Kings they're on. When I'm not in those situations, the higher POE doesn't really matter except that it makes for a louder hub, eh.
    Exactly right. You dont notice the engagement as much if you're riding non technical or straight trails. You'll notice it much more in techy stuff and tight turns where you can't carry momentum very well. Situations where you're on and off the gas constantly are where a faster engaging hub will shine.

    P.S. My 240 and 190 hubs are both significantly louder than my king. When there's a DT hub following me, I hear that hub over the king that's attached to my bike - even at a distance.

    Quote Originally Posted by umarth View Post
    I prefer the lowest POE that I can find. If the crank engagement is instantaneous, I find that I was able to get further through technical sections before eating ****, which was immeasurably more painful than just walking the section after slow engagement caused me to dab.

    Also, I noticed I got moving faster out of corners and slow sections, which is scary. Whatever happened to going slow and enjoying the smell of the dog **** the hikers didn't pick up?
    Yep. I too prefer to fail at technical riding and riding slower overall. I love teh smell of fresh poo. :-)

    Realistically, it's a matter of personal preference. Some like that faster engagement (I'm one of those guys) and some do not. There are plusses and minusses to both, and you need to weigh your requirements when picking a hub. Or just buy the one that you're getting the best deal and forget about it. At the end of the day, they're all gonna "work"

  14. #14
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    I originally used a 36poe WI FW then upgraded the internal drive to a trials to get 72poe. What I initally noticed is there is less drag on the 36 not a ton but I could notice it. I would say lower poe seems a solid racing option, less drag higher speed?

    I do enjoy the fast engagement like most, most stuff around here I can clear at speed anyways. It really comes in handy when I go somewhere new or doing teeters, skinny, or the like.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by BShow View Post

    P.S. My 240 and 190 hubs are both significantly louder than my king. When there's a DT hub following me, I hear that hub over the king that's attached to my bike - even at a distance.
    Hmmm interesting, my DT240 is dead silent when i coast. It's pretty new (only a few hundred miles) and doesnt have the ratchet upgrade so maybe that is why. I wonder if it will get louder over time.

    Good discussion on this....my trails are pretty flowy and not entirely technical so maybe that's why I don't pay much attention to POE.

    What I might do is get the DT star ratchet upgrade just to see if I notice much difference and like it any better It's inexpensive, a snap to switch out, and it sounds like it may have even shave off a few grams so it's worth a shot to check out at least.


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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5power View Post
    Are points of engagements worth the price? Just trying to con myself into getting a set of Profile elite 204 POE hubs lol...

    Currently running a Chris King and a Hope single speed hub... King is 72 so 204 is a big jump and will sound wicked...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pink57 View Post
    I would say lower poe seems a solid racing option, less drag higher speed?
    .
    i race alot and that is my theory (less drag= higher speed). My local racing weekly series is pretty high speed, very wide open, and has little stop/go type accelerations. I race SS in Pro Open geared class and I coast and draft a ton on the straightaways. It might be all in my head, but this is why i dont want any drag. I make up ground and placings in these races on the short punchy climbs then recover on the flats when i'm coasting and the last thing i want is anything robbing me of forward momentum or i'll get dusted when the geared guys start downshifting. So for me....i look at low mechanical resistance hubs the same as i look at, say, low rolling resistance tires. Kind of same concept. (again i dont know how much difference it makes in the real world....but mentally, it clears my mind at least when my bike is the stand before a race and the hubs spin for days on end with little loss of momentum...maybe i'm just crazy lol).




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  18. #18
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    You'll hear all kinds of opinions on why high POE is better and/or worse than low POE, so it's really a personal preference.

    Personally I'll take a hub with a somewhat high POE number over a lower one anyday. However, anything beyond a certain point can become overkill. An example on the low end would be the new-ish SRAM hubs that for some horrible reason were designed with 12 points of engagement. IMO that's ok for a road bike where you're almost constantly pedaling... but not very good off road where you start/stop pedaling constantly. On the extremely high end would be the profile 204 POE example, or the true precision hubs with instant engagement. My guess is the profile hub comes with some additional drag, and it's well known that the true precision hubs have a good amount of drag. On the middle end you have 36-72 point hubs, which in my opinion are the sweet spot. 36 is on the low end of what I'd consider, with 72 being closer to ideal. I have kings on my race bike and find the nearly instant engagement an advantage out of corners, when getting stuck behind someone up a hill, and in technical sections where ratcheting makes a difference. It all comes down to what you want and your riding style.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrone Shoelaces View Post
    Hmmm interesting, my DT240 is dead silent when i coast. It's pretty new (only a few hundred miles) and doesnt have the ratchet upgrade so maybe that is why. I wonder if it will get louder over time.

    Good discussion on this....my trails are pretty flowy and not entirely technical so maybe that's why I don't pay much attention to POE.

    What I might do is get the DT star ratchet upgrade just to see if I notice much difference and like it any better It's inexpensive, a snap to switch out, and it sounds like it may have even shave off a few grams so it's worth a shot to check out at least.


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    Mine were kinda noisy from the get go. I had the ratchets installed on the SS 240 when the shop ordered it new, so thats all i knew there. The 190 came new with the standard ratchet and it sounded the same as the upgraded one to my untrained ears. My friend has a 240 that is not upgraded and it sounds the same as mine... just maybe a difference in frequency of ratchet sounds... but thats almost imperceptible.

    If your hub is silent, I'm interested to know what the difference is. Maybe it's really well lubed in there, whereas mine might be dry? Dunno.

    In my opinion, the star upgrade is a no brainer. It's claimed to be lighter and it engages faster. in my experience as a 165lb racer type, it's as durable as stock - it's a DT made part... not like its some hack making it. Also, I think with the way the ratchet system works, a difference in drag would be negligible.

  20. #20
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    Agreed.

    More is better, but there is a diminishing returns factor going on here. IMO, 24 points is fine for SSing. Anything less drive me batshiz. I got on a bud's bike with WTB LDLite hubs with 16 points, and right off the bat it sucked. It's especially important on gearie bikes with granny gears. Those cranks can spin awfully far around in granny gear.

    I'm running a Hope Pro2SS rear hub on the SS right now with 48 POE. I wish Hope had more POE on the gearie hubs, but I'm sure there is a technical reason why they don't, that they have not bothered to fix yet. I know some folks have blown up the pawls or the hub body on the gearie hubs... probably mashing in a low gear or something.

  21. #21
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    So...

    Do do more points of engagement mean smaller pawls/ratchets and/or fewer pawls engaged at any one time? In other words, is there a tradeoff between the number of engagement points and durability/reliability?

    Just tossing this out there since this is an interesting disussion.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by chad1376 View Post
    So...

    Do do more points of engagement mean smaller pawls/ratchets and/or fewer pawls engaged at any one time? In other words, is there a tradeoff between the number of engagement points and durability/reliability?

    Just tossing this out there since this is an interesting disussion.
    Depends on the design. In hubs that use pawls a limited number of pawls are engaging inside the hub. Usually there are 3 to 4 pawls inside the freehub that engage at a time. With king's ring drive design all 72 teeth of the ring drive engage at the same time, which is likely one of the reasons they're rated to ridiculous amounts of torque. I believe the dt swiss star ratchet design is similar to king's design where all teeth engage at the same time, but I haven't torn one apart yet (own one however). Both the king and dt swiss hubs are well known for their durability. So, the answer to your question isn't completely straightforward, it all depends on the freehub design.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5power View Post
    Are points of engagements worth the price? Just trying to con myself into getting a set of Profile elite 204 POE hubs lol...

    Currently running a Chris King and a Hope single speed hub... King is 72 so 204 is a big jump and will sound wicked...
    I find POE less important on SS than on a geared bike. 24 is fine by me.
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by kapusta View Post
    I find POE less important on SS than on a geared bike. 24 is fine by me.
    Why?

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by chad1376 View Post
    So...

    Do do more points of engagement mean smaller pawls/ratchets and/or fewer pawls engaged at any one time? In other words, is there a tradeoff between the number of engagement points and durability/reliability?

    Just tossing this out there since this is an interesting disussion.
    good point and to add one more topic about this POE, i think the guys who run a smaller gear ratio will benefit the freewheel with more POE's. the concept is pretty much the same with coaster hub. it takes longer for the cog to turn with a smaller gear ratio thus engaging time is also longer, so adding more POE will reduce that dead spot.

    guys with taller gear ratio will be mind blowing. imagine a 52:14 ratio with 204 POE, i bet even a minute crank arm movement the pawls are already engaged.
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  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by BShow View Post
    Why?
    In short, because in situations where engagement is more important (usually low speed, technical), on an SS I am generally going to find myself in a higher gear ratio than if I were on a geared bike.

    I guess this might need some explanation. POE as measured at the hub is not what you experience at the cranks. That is changed by the gearing. For example, take a 24 POE hub. That is 15 degrees between engagement points measured at the hub. However, it is what you experience at the cranks that matters.

    If you are running a 2:1 ratio SS gearing (32/16 for example), that means it will be 7.5 degrees crank rotation between POE. If you were in a 1:1 ratio (like being on a geared bike in 32/32 ring/cog) it would be 15 degrees between POE at the cranks. If you are in 22/32 (granny ring, big cog) then it would be 21.8 degrees at the cranks.

    In my particular case, I ran 32/18 on my SS with a 24 POE hub, so that was ~8.4 degrees between engagement points on the hub. In situations where I might need to ratchet, on my geared bike I am typically in something like 32/34, 32/30 or 32/27 which come out to 16.0, 14.1, and 12.7 degrees respectively between engagement points.

    Whether 24 POE is OK for whatever gear ratio you are running is personal taste. For me, with the ratios I typically run with SS, 24 POE is just fine. On the geared bike it is acceptable, but I would not mind a little more.
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  27. #27
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    My head just exploded.


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  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by kapusta View Post
    In short, because in situations where engagement is more important (usually low speed, technical), on an SS I am generally going to find myself in a higher gear ratio than if I were on a geared bike.

    I guess this might need some explanation. POE as measured at the hub is not what you experience at the cranks. That is changed by the gearing. For example, take a 24 POE hub. That is 15 degrees between engagement points measured at the hub. However, it is what you experience at the cranks that matters.

    If you are running a 2:1 ratio SS gearing (32/16 for example), that means it will be 7.5 degrees crank rotation between POE. If you were in a 1:1 ratio (like being on a geared bike in 32/32 ring/cog) it would be 15 degrees between POE at the cranks. If you are in 22/32 (granny ring, big cog) then it would be 21.8 degrees at the cranks.

    In my particular case, I ran 32/18 on my SS with a 24 POE hub, so that was ~8.4 degrees between engagement points on the hub. In situations where I might need to ratchet, on my geared bike I am typically in something like 32/34, 32/30 or 32/27 which come out to 16.0, 14.1, and 12.7 degrees respectively between engagement points.

    Whether 24 POE is OK for whatever gear ratio you are running is personal taste. For me, with the ratios I typically run with SS, 24 POE is just fine. On the geared bike it is acceptable, but I would not mind a little more.
    Do it again with different crank arm lengths.

  29. #29
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    I removed three of the six pawls in my Industry 9's to reduce drag. Drag that was noticeable in the stand, but not so much when actually riding. The engagement went from 3° to 6°.

    It was noticeable... the reduced engagement. I hated it (the noticing part), and when you think about the real difference between 3° and 6°... it's not a whole lot...

    But I could tell.

    My hubs were back at I9 for a servicing (they're like 2.5 hours from my house). While they had them in their hands, I asked if they could re-install the three pawls, and whilst there they sent a gentle reminder to leave good enough alone. I found this the next time I serviced them myself.





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  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by umarth View Post
    Do it again with different crank arm lengths.
    If you care, you do it.
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by umarth View Post
    Do it again with different crank arm lengths.
    Rotational (i.e. angular) measurements do not depend on radius, therefore all crank lengths would go through the same angle.

    Sorry for the thread resurrection, but there is good info here (for once) and the math should be set straight.
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    Re: The importants of POE on a SS hub

    Quote Originally Posted by tbaier View Post
    Rotational (i.e. angular) measurements do not depend on radius, therefore all crank lengths would go through the same angle.

    Sorry for the thread resurrection, but there is good info here (for once) and the math should be set straight.
    I can't decipher the initial post that was quoted. It's long and drawn out; my attention span barely allowed me to trace it back, let alone read it.

    Anyway...

    The pedals attached to longer crank arms will travel farther at the same rotational degree. Engagement might feel slower as a result.

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    Quote Originally Posted by teamdicky View Post
    I removed three of the six pawls in my Industry 9's to reduce drag. Drag that was noticeable in the stand, but not so much when actually riding. The engagement went from 3° to 6°.

    It was noticeable... the reduced engagement. I hated it (the noticing part), and when you think about the real difference between 3° and 6°... it's not a whole lot...

    But I could tell.

    My hubs were back at I9 for a servicing (they're like 2.5 hours from my house). While they had them in their hands, I asked if they could re-install the three pawls, and whilst there they sent a gentle reminder to leave good enough alone. I found this the next time I serviced them myself.





    I will buy another I9 hub just because of that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BShow View Post
    I can't decipher the initial post that was quoted. It's long and drawn out; my attention span barely allowed me to trace it back, let alone read it.

    Anyway...

    The pedals attached to longer crank arms will travel farther at the same rotational degree. Engagement might feel slower as a result.

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    The initial post centered on degrees of rotation not arc length which, of course, is different. 9th grade mathematics, this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by deuxdiesel View Post
    I will buy another I9 hub just because of that.
    HAHA They are a pretty cool bunch there.

    I never had an issue with low poe (24) until I got my I9s on my single speed. Ended up having the 24 poe hub on my geared bike drive me insane after that, so I just put a set of Kings on it (I9 didn't have the color I wanted).

    I can't tell the difference between the Kings and the I9 engagement. Don't have enough time on the Kings yet to see which one coasts better or has more drag.

    I9s are very notably louder than the Kings though.

    Either way, to the original question, I think maybe once you get to the new Hope 40t engagement, beyond that it might not be as noticeable. But I could never be content on a 24 poe or less wheel anymore now that I know what I am missing. Maybe if I lived somewhere with smoother singletrack I wouldn't mind. But PA is extremely rocky and technical, and I really clear a lot more on the high engagement hubs than before.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by BShow View Post

    The pedals attached to longer crank arms will travel farther at the same rotational degree. Engagement might feel slower as a result.
    This is true. Had not thought of that.

    However, unless you are comparing some freakishly long and short cranks, the difference is pretty small. The difference in how far the pedals will travel is going to be roughly proportional to the difference in the crank lengths.

    Comparing a 170mm to 175mm cranks, that's ~3% difference. That is not even the difference of going from a 24 down to 23 POE hub. It's like going from a 72 to 69 or 70 POE. I am pretty sure nobody could tell the difference.

    Comparing 165mm to 180mm (the extremes in what you typically see out there), it's a 9% difference. Even that is not much. It would be like the difference of going from a 24 down to a 22 POE hub. Or from a 72 to a 65. I guess some could maybe tell riding back to back, but I am pretty sure I could not.
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

  37. #37
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    Re: The importants of POE on a SS hub

    Quote Originally Posted by tbaier View Post
    9th grade mathematics, this.
    It's not a math forum, this.

    What was the original topic? I can tell a significant difference between 36 Poe and 72 Poe. All else the same, I'd much rather have more Poe.


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    Quote Originally Posted by BShow View Post
    It's not a math forum, this.

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    So *actual science* is not allowed to help answer questions? Maybe now I see why the actual benefit of these forums has become so vanishingly small.
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  39. #39
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    poop on trails

    Quote Originally Posted by umarth View Post
    I prefer the lowest POE that I can find. If the crank engagement is instantaneous, I find that I was able to get further through technical sections before eating ****, which was immeasurably more painful than just walking the section after slow engagement caused me to dab.

    Also, I noticed I got moving faster out of corners and slow sections, which is scary. Whatever happened to going slow and enjoying the smell of the dog **** the hikers didn't pick up?
    low POE stinks, Walking sucks.
    I've run through more Horse sh!t than dog sh!t. But the smell of dog **** will get me to pedal faster.

  40. #40
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    Re: The importants of POE on a SS hub

    Quote Originally Posted by tbaier View Post
    The initial post centered on degrees of rotation not arc length which, of course, is different. 9th grade mathematics, this.
    I could be wrong, but I think the original post was asking what the importance of high engagement is. I don't think the op was centered specifically on degrees of rotation. It s more of a whole picture question.

    Given the context of this forum and the question at hand, I don't think it's fair to say that arc length is unrelated. Your post comes across as condescending and as a result, it rubs me the wrong way. Obviously , you're entitled to post up and display your application of 9th grade mathematics. It's an open forum. You're also entitled to not participate if it's not worth your while as you've so eloquently eluded to.

    Cheers.

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    Apologies, boss. I did come across rather d!ck!sh, didn't I, probably because you hit on my major forum pet peeve: dismissive-ness.

    Quote Originally Posted by BShow View Post
    I can't decipher the initial post that was quoted. It's long and drawn out; my attention span barely allowed me to trace it back, let alone read it.
    As much as we would like to believe that forums of this sort are the righteous public square where the unmatched power of truth is able to shout down all falsehoods, the reality is that great, truly informative posts (like the one to which you were referring here) are often lost in a sea of conjecture, error, and those who remove pawls to decrease drag (at least it was humorous). Your opening salvo perpetuated that, in my mind. So I owe you a beer.

    Anyway... back to the regularly scheduled programming...
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  42. #42
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    The importants of POE on a SS hub

    All things being equal higher poe hubs are generally made to higher quality.
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  43. #43
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    Thread resurrection!

    Building a new wheel soon. Looking at the Hope Pro 4, Hadley, and maybe a Bitex hub to save $$, but willing to pay more for reliability. Currently on a dying Stans 3.30 hub. Must be a gearie hub so I can use it for 1x10 applications, but will be SS most of the time. 165 pound rider in central Texas (very rocky, short and steep climbs). Thoughts?

    The importants of POE on a SS hub-freehubengagementgraphic.jpg

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by mack_turtle View Post
    Thread resurrection!

    Building a new wheel soon. Looking at the Hope Pro 4, Hadley, and maybe a Bitex hub to save $$, but willing to pay more for reliability. Currently on a dying Stans 3.30 hub. Must be a gearie hub so I can use it for 1x10 applications, but will be SS most of the time. 165 pound rider in central Texas (very rocky, short and steep climbs). Thoughts?

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Well, my thought sucks, but here it goes...

    I like the graph. If you superimpose the slices it will render the disparities between POE more clearly.

    I run an oval chainring. If you do the same, you've probably noticed that the chain will become a little more slack during certain points of rotation, rendering crazy high POE kind of pointless... Sometimes (depending where the crank arm is) I'm taking up chain slack before the hub engages regardless of POE.

    Ultimately, though, get what you want. Have fun with it, that's what matters. You'll probably be excited and happy with whatever you choose.

  45. #45
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    ^ that's the first time i've heard the slack chain feeling with an oval ring. I certainly don't notice it. perhaps you should take a little slack out of the chain? even in the 'slack' position there's plenty of tension on my chain.

    Mack: I built two wheels with BHS hubs this year and honestly i have nothing but good things to say. 6 pawls, 54poe, medium clickey noise, convertible, come in a couple colors. I use them on my HT which is mostly my race bike. I like to stand and mash (205 lb) and they've been flawless.

    anyway, POE is more important to me on the SS. (currently running a WI trials freewheel 80 poe) small ratchets in rock gardens or going over a log on a uphill are easier with a little better engagement for me.

    I think i'd be pretty happy with a 54poe hub on the SS, i could easily live with it, but i'm happy to have the 80. anything beyond that is luxury IMO and you reach a point of diminishing returns above 72.

    the next time i build a SS wheel I'd love to use a Hadley SS hub. second choice would be Hope. (i'm actually a little worried Hope would be too loud and i wouldn't like it) they're all good hubs, just depends on what you want to spend and what you want out of it. colors, sound, made in USA, price. that's my $.02
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  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by *OneSpeed* View Post
    ^ that's the first time i've heard the slack chain feeling with an oval ring. I certainly don't notice it. perhaps you should take a little slack out of the chain? even in the 'slack' position there's plenty of tension on my chain.

    Mack: I built two wheels with BHS hubs this year and honestly i have nothing but good things to say. 6 pawls, 54poe, medium clickey noise, convertible, come in a couple colors. I use them on my HT which is mostly my race bike. I like to stand and mash (205 lb) and they've been flawless.

    anyway, POE is more important to me on the SS. (currently running a WI trials freewheel 80 poe) small ratchets in rock gardens or going over a log on a uphill are easier with a little better engagement for me.

    I think i'd be pretty happy with a 54poe hub on the SS, i could easily live with it, but i'm happy to have the 80. anything beyond that is luxury IMO and you reach a point of diminishing returns above 72.

    the next time i build a SS wheel I'd love to use a Hadley SS hub. second choice would be Hope. (i'm actually a little worried Hope would be too loud and i wouldn't like it) they're all good hubs, just depends on what you want to spend and what you want out of it. colors, sound, made in USA, price. that's my $.02
    What brand/size oval ring do you use? Is there much or any slack at when the chainring is vertically oblong? Maybe I'm just running mine a little loose.

  47. #47
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    I use an AB 32t oval ring and it does have a slight loose spot in it, but not any more than I am used to with a round ring. No ring is perfectly round. All drivetrains have some slack in them. If you use the amount of chain slack as a common denominator, POE could set one hub apart from another. If the chain take 3 degrees before it starts to drive, an you hub takes 12 degrees to engage, that's 15 degrees. But if your hub takes 6 degrees, that's on 9 to get going. Sounds trivial but if you're going to buy a new hub...

  48. #48
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    Low PoE also means stronger pawls, most of the time. I'm happy with 32 on my DT 350, and won't go higher because I want thick, durable pawls. Half the reason I go SS is durability.
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  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by mdilthey View Post
    Low PoE also means stronger pawls, most of the time.
    The exception being Shimano. I have seen too many blown up Shimano XT hubs.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by mack_turtle View Post
    The exception being Shimano. I have seen too many blown up Shimano XT hubs.
    Agreed... that's why I upgraded my Deore to a DT Swiss 350.
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  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by *OneSpeed* View Post
    ^ that's the first time i've heard the slack chain feeling with an oval ring. I certainly don't notice it. perhaps you should take a little slack out of the chain? even in the 'slack' position there's plenty of tension on my chain.

    Mack: I built two wheels with BHS hubs this year and honestly i have nothing but good things to say. 6 pawls, 54poe, medium clickey noise, convertible, come in a couple colors. I use them on my HT which is mostly my race bike. I like to stand and mash (205 lb) and they've been flawless.

    anyway, POE is more important to me on the SS. (currently running a WI trials freewheel 80 poe) small ratchets in rock gardens or going over a log on a uphill are easier with a little better engagement for me.

    I think i'd be pretty happy with a 54poe hub on the SS, i could easily live with it, but i'm happy to have the 80. anything beyond that is luxury IMO and you reach a point of diminishing returns above 72.

    the next time i build a SS wheel I'd love to use a Hadley SS hub. second choice would be Hope. (i'm actually a little worried Hope would be too loud and i wouldn't like it) they're all good hubs, just depends on what you want to spend and what you want out of it. colors, sound, made in USA, price. that's my $.02
    I love my Hadley hubs. Engagement, spin and durability can't be beat.

  52. #52
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    I ride SS 29er's more often than gears, these days primarily on two wheel sets: DT 240s (that were upgraded from the standard 18 to 36-step star ratchets) and Kings.

    I also ride wheel sets with Stan's, Shimano M525 (SS) and other rear hubs. At 195 lbs, I've crushed bearings in a couple of hubs but haven't completely blown one up yet. I perform basic maintenance on them occasionally which might be part of why that is the case.

    With 1,000's of miles on a number of wheel sets, varying POE has zero impact on my climbing ability. I can't detect that a King rear hub has twice the POE of a DT 240S 36 star ratchet hub and climb with the same level of gusto and frequent success...

    If you want quality and simplicity, DT is as good as it gets IMO.
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  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeZee View Post
    I love my Hadley hubs. Engagement, spin and durability can't be beat.
    +1
    Mines a cassette hub with a KickAss cog, but I long ago decided that these were 'forever' parts.
    I'm planning on a set of wide carbon rims next year once grad school is done, and I'm unlacing the Arch rims and keeping my beloved Hadleys.

  54. #54
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    I love my Hadley SS hubs too. I'm using wide DT XM481 i30 rims but wouldn't mind going with i35 or i40 rims since I'm a fan of "wider is better" My friend uses 2.35 tires on his wide Derby rims and he shreds.
    Quote Originally Posted by ARandomBiker View Post
    +1
    Mines a cassette hub with a KickAss cog, but I long ago decided that these were 'forever' parts.
    I'm planning on a set of wide carbon rims next year once grad school is done, and I'm unlacing the Arch rims and keeping my beloved Hadleys.
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  55. #55
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    A single speed specific hub will make a much stiffer 29er wheel because of the wider flange hub body. Better for short power climb sections. I use Hadley's and highly recommend them because of the durable Ti free hub. If I where to go for higher POE I'd go with I9 or 321, maybe the ONXY but I'm not sure if the make a 142x12 SS hub.
    Quote Originally Posted by mack_turtle View Post
    Thread resurrection!

    Building a new wheel soon. Looking at the Hope Pro 4, Hadley, and maybe a Bitex hub to save $$, but willing to pay more for reliability. Currently on a dying Stans 3.30 hub. Must be a gearie hub so I can use it for 1x10 applications, but will be SS most of the time. 165 pound rider in central Texas (very rocky, short and steep climbs). Thoughts?

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  56. #56
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    For me, a hub with a higher POE comes in handy when I've sort of stalled and and need to get going again or need to ratchet the cranks. Usually on a slower technical section. Aside from that it is pretty much a non-issue. A DT Swiss with 54T ratchet feels as quick engaging as a CK or at least I can't detect a difference.

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  57. #57
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    I found average POE (40poe hope pro2) were fine on the SS when I put that wheel set on a geared bike I was like **** I want 120+. Non stop pedalling and no gear changes takes away a lot of the times a lower POE hub will piss you off.

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flat Ark View Post
    A DT Swiss with 54T ratchet feels as quick engaging as a CK or at least I can't detect a difference.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk
    I would agree with this. It's comparing a 5* hub to a 6.6* hub though, so not a very large difference. Going to a 3* hub would be a big enough jump that it should be noticeable, but then you won't want to coast because your freehub sounds like the Vulcan cannon on an A-10.

  59. #59
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    So i am torn between Hadley, Hope Pro 4, and those BHS hubs. If I go Hadley, I will regret nothing but the opportunity to spend money on other things. Hope seems like a solid middle ground. BHS/Bitex hubs get great reviews but I will always feel like I sild myself short on ling term durability and quality, although that might really be all in my head.
    Last edited by mack_turtle; 09-06-2016 at 10:48 AM.

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by mack_turtle View Post
    So i am toen between Hadley, Hope Pro 4, and those BHS hubs. If I go Hadley, I will regret nothing but the opportunity to spend money on other things. Hope seems like a solid middle ground. BHS/Bitex hubs get great reviews but I will always feel like I sild myself short on ling term durability and quality, although that might really be all in my head.
    take comfort in the fact that you can easily justify any decision you make. there is no wrong choice.
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  61. #61
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    The new Hope hubs are going to be a solid choice at 40 POE and I think the SS version is even higher? Plus they can be configured in so many different ways as your bike tastes change. I have a set of Hope Pro 2s that are still valid today with all the new axle types coming out. I am currently running them on a gravel race bike with thru bolt DT Swiss.

    My SS is now running a DT Swiss 350 with a 54t upgrade, this is more than enough. I did like my old I9 but 120 is simply not needed for me, I do not really ratchet thru a lot of our stuff here vs just sort of glide over it since I've been riding this stuff for over 10 years.
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  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pink57 View Post
    The new Hope hubs are going to be a solid choice at 40 POE and I think the SS version is even higher? Plus they can be configured in so many different ways as your bike tastes change. I have a set of Hope Pro 2s that are still valid today with all the new axle types coming out. I am currently running them on a gravel race bike with thru bolt DT Swiss.
    note that he is using a standard hub, not SS, and all the hubs being discussed are equally convertible.
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  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flat Ark View Post
    For me, a hub with a higher POE comes in handy when I've sort of stalled and and need to get going again or need to ratchet the cranks. Usually on a slower technical section. Aside from that it is pretty much a non-issue. A DT Swiss with 54T ratchet feels as quick engaging as a CK or at least I can't detect a difference.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk
    Yeah my experience as well, really noticed it when I bought my ROS9+ which came with a Stans 3.30 11 spd (24 POE? felt like 12) but only rode it in one gear. There's a section on one trail I ride where you have to get up over 2 large rocks in a row and as you're clearing the second you need to make a sharp right and negotiate another forcing you to pause for a second, my clearance rate plummeted with the Stans hub, got my Hadley SS wheelset and back to clearing this pretty much everytime again.

  64. #64
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    Also consider the DT Swiss 350 with the upgraded star ratchet to either 36t or 54t. I've used a number of other hubs in the past and have been moving all of my bikes over to DT lately. Super reliable and simple freehub system and Swiss quality.

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by teamdicky View Post


    I have two sets of wheels for my SS, Rich's old i9s above (with the proper number of pawls...), and a Surly hub set with a WI freewheel (not trials). The difference in the engagement between the two wheel setups is highly noticeable. I wonder if a trials FW would be better, but I bet it still wouldn't be the same as the i9.

  66. #66
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    I have a Rohloff for my Krampus. Took apart the base wheels and built it into the Rabbit Holes after riding the stock wheels for a couple of months. The stock rear wheel was good, I think it had an XT hub on it. Really upped my confidence in the woods ratcheting and climbing up and over rocks and roots and even tight switchbacks.

    That was late fall. By the time I put the Rohloff on the ice and non winter winter had set in here in VT and I spent many rides on forest roads with studded tires happily enjoying the Rohloff.

    Fast forward to last spring when I started riding the Rohloff wheel in the woods and I kept stalling out, tipping over, and getting hung up on rocks and roots (New England). I borrowed a Chris King SS wheelset from a friend and noticed an amazing difference in trail riding. And almost immediately found a used wheelset to buy built with King hubs and WTB scraper rims. Difference for me is night and day when ratcheting over rocks and roots, or even just getting my feet in a better position to handle a switchback.

    The Rohloff is now for bikepacking where the single track is tame and the route is geared more towards gravel, forest roads, and double track. For a trip coming up I turned my king SS wheel setup into a 1x5 because we'll have some rooty, rocky singletrack in the mix.

    I'm on the fence about the Rohloff, but if I ever sell it I'll be building a king 1x10 setup. Can't not go back to not having power exactly where and when I expect it.

    POE, yes, SS of geared to me is very important.

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by ARandomBiker View Post
    +1
    Mines a cassette hub with a KickAss cog, but I long ago decided that these were 'forever' parts.
    I'm planning on a set of wide carbon rims next year once grad school is done, and I'm unlacing the Arch rims and keeping my beloved Hadleys.
    Funny...this weekend I am unlacing my Hadley's with Arch rims and installing Easton Arc 30 rims. The wide high volume tires will be a nice upgrade for the rigid.

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