Results 1 to 27 of 27
  1. #1
    mtbr member
    Reputation: traffic002's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    1,938

    How important are hubs? (Monocog reference)

    So after 4 good trail rides on my Monocog Flight 29, my biggest gripe is the engagement of the hubs.

    I believe my bike comes with a "Redline" hub. So I have no idea what the specs are.

    But what would be a cost effective upgrade for this hub? Is it a whole wheelset? Or is it just rebuilding the wheel with a new hub?

    Other than smoother engagments with more engagement points, what are other benefits that I may be able to feel. I've read about rolling resistance. But how significant is that? I find it hard to believe that people can actually feel that. Well, maybe like comparing a high end brand and entry level brand. But if you're somewhere in the middle, does it matter?

    I'm 160# and a good technical rider that rides mostly technical trails. (ok, I ride easy trails with my son too...) and just wondering what's the best bang for the buck for improving my drivetrain.

  2. #2
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    540
    Quote Originally Posted by traffic002
    So after 4 good trail rides on my Monocog Flight 29, my biggest gripe is the engagement of the hubs.

    I believe my bike comes with a "Redline" hub. So I have no idea what the specs are.
    The stock Redline hubs suck... not so much that you should throw them out immediately, but riding technical trails, especially if they ever get wet, is going to kill them quickly. Fortunately, the rear hub has a cartridge bearing on both sides (6000 series) which is easily replaceable when the hub starts to get grindy and notchy. AFAIK, the front is cup-and-cone, so it's serviceable with a handful of loose ball bearings, some grease, and new cones... if the cups aren't all scored up.

    Really just depends how much hub maintenance you feel like doing, or ride 'em until they explode and get something nice like a Surly or a White Ind.


    edit: regarding engagement points, a popular solution is to get a wheel built around a hub designed for a SS freewheel (surly, white, etc.)... so the rear wheel is stronger b/c it is dishless, and you can put a White Ind. Trials freewheel on there for 72 points of engagement.

  3. #3
    aka baycat
    Reputation: Ryan G.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    8,478
    White Industries or some Phil Wood hubs would be excellent on a single speed, heard they hook up nicely but unsure if I would notice the difference.

    If you are on a budget look into some Hope hubs. Popular SS hub and they are at a good price point and you can color coordinate. One caveat is they are noisy. Not the I spent a lot of money buzz you get with Kinds but enough to warn people you are coming down the trail.

  4. #4
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    538
    i have a Gt peace 9'r and the hubs are the same thin as on the monocog. from what i have gathered most sub 1000 dollar single speeds share this weak point. they are a formula hub usually branded by the bike company. (for example i have gt hubs). i got a year out of mine and then the free hub loosened up and would skip a lot. i have since replaced it but the new one skips a lot too! i have a new wheel set on its way. Surly hubs, semi disc hoops and white industries trials free wheel should be bullet proof. for what its worth the free hubs for the stock wheel set is very hard to come by.

  5. #5
    mtbr member
    Reputation: traffic002's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    1,938
    So please forgive my complete newb-ness on this. I've actually rarely broken anything other than when I slam into a tree or miss-judge a jump and came down on the corner of a curb with my rear wheel and the like.

    So...

    Is it better for me to just pick up a new wheel for the rear than trying to rebuild the wheel I have?

    Assuming I ride 1.5x a week, rain or shine (yes, we ride through rainforest mud over the winter), what is the expected lifespan on technical single track for a fit 160# rider on a single speed? (I've never ridden consistently throughout the year prior to last year.)

    What is the nomenclature of a freewheel and freehub? So one has the freewheel built into the hub and splined to accept a cassette or cog??? and the other is like the front hub and has the freewheel built into the cog (like old skool bmx bikes?) <----as opposed to my son's Redline mini bmx has a cassette type and we can share rear cogs.

    Pros and cons of each type?

    (and why isn't there a sticky on this subject????)

  6. #6
    Life is Go0d!
    Reputation: mo0se's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    891
    The difference is, a freewheel is secured onto a non-ratcheting hub. The white industries freewheel allows for coasting. A cassette hub, which you have, is used with spacers to achieve the same thing. The freewheels are not cheap, at least the Whites are not. They run about 65 bucks. When my stock hubs give out, I will use Hope for a replacement. I like having lots of cogs for different terrain, having several White freewheels is not cost effective. Lots of info on the subject here: www.sheldonbrown.com
    The only regrets in life, are the risks you didn't take.

  7. #7
    mtbr member
    Reputation: traffic002's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    1,938
    Thanks for the break down.

    So out of cassette hubs, are the Redlines' spline any different than a standard Shimano cassette hub made for gears?

    And this would relate to my next question of can I just pick up any standard 29-er rear wheel with cassette hubs or do I have to stick with a certain size hub?

  8. #8
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    1,255
    I have no idea what engagement formula brand hubs are but if you're not happy I'd guess that they around 24. Could be 36pt but 36pt is actually pretty decent, I think Shimano XTs have 36pt.

    Engagement is very important to SS because we don't get the luxury of shifting down, we have to ratchet our way to victory over the tough stuff.

    There is a very significant different between 24pt engagement and 48pt. 48pt feels almost instantaneous while 24 feels like eternity. I probably wouldn't get a SS wheelset if it had less that 36pts of engagement.

    Building a new wheelset is easier with new parts than used. So if you're up to the challenge go for it, take your time, Sheldon brown's website will be your best friend. However, in the cost aspect its almost as cheap having them built for you.

    Mike C from Lacemine29.com is a godly wheelbuilder and has specialis going on all the time, super quality work.

    Orioncycles (sales@orioncycles.com) also does a really good job, cheaper than doing them yourself. He is a bit slow buildling and shipping though, about 2.5 weeks.

  9. #9
    I'm gonna have to kill ya
    Reputation: roybatty666's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    321
    I have chris kings on my AM geared FS and Hopes on my SS with a SS specific rear.

    If you get some hope wheels through Chain Reactions Cycles they are pretty bargaintastic reasonably light and the SS rear has 48pt engagement and a stronger shell. You also get a stronger wheel as has been mentioned with the lack of dish due to te wider flanges.

    I wouldn't bother rebuilding your old wheel as it won't really save you anything and may cost more as you will only be keeping the rim as spokes will be the wrong length and need replacing as well.

    Get a pair and get some colour bling on your stead

  10. #10
    mtbr member
    Reputation: asphaltdude's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    637
    Quote Originally Posted by traffic002
    So out of cassette hubs, are the Redlines' spline any different than a standard Shimano cassette hub made for gears?
    No, they're the same!

    And this would relate to my next question of can I just pick up any standard 29-er rear wheel with cassette hubs or do I have to stick with a certain size hub?
    You can use any hub, you'll just need some cassette spacers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Renovatio
    I have no idea what engagement formula brand hubs are but if you're not happy I'd guess that they around 24.

    Only 15 or 16 engagement points
    Ride more!

  11. #11
    mtbr member
    Reputation: traffic002's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    1,938
    thanks for the references. I'd like to get something with more instant engagement. Maybe just get a new rear wheel and have my trail cog and then use the stock wheel as a commuter with some CX tires mounted and the smallest cog that will work with my chain length.

  12. #12
    mtbr member
    Reputation: traffic002's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    1,938
    Quote Originally Posted by asphaltdude
    No, they're the same!


    You can use any hub, you'll just need some cassette spacers.



    Only 15 or 16 engagement points
    No wonder it feels like I'm freewheeling forward and then it finally catches. Never felt that in my old XT hub and my recent M475(?) hub on my geared bikes.

    So if I shoot for 48pts?

    Any notceable improvements going higher other than cool sounds and bling?

  13. #13
    mtbr member
    Reputation: traffic002's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    1,938
    so I just peeked on notubes.com and looked some Stans arch 29 with ZTR hubs. The hub has 3 pawl, 24pt engagement. So does equate to an actual 72pt engagement? Or has the math been done already?

  14. #14
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    1,255
    Quote Originally Posted by traffic002
    so I just peeked on notubes.com and looked some Stans arch 29 with ZTR hubs. The hub has 3 pawl, 24pt engagement. So does equate to an actual 72pt engagement? Or has the math been done already?
    I don't know. Purely judging by the price of being $180 less than Hope Pro 2s, they would be 24pt. 72pt is like Hadley and Chris King, expensive.

    Best bang for the buck would be XT which I believe are 36pt and less than $100 for Front and rear. Yes they are traditional cup and cone bearing style but repack them once or twice and you'll be a pro. Repack them often enough and they'll last forever without scoring the races.

    I'm not trying to push Shimano or anything, I ride Hope Pro 2 SS, but it sounds a bit out of your budget. In all honesty my next set of wheels for my geared bike will not be 24pt.

  15. #15
    mtbr member
    Reputation: asphaltdude's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    637
    Quote Originally Posted by traffic002
    The hub has 3 pawl, 24pt engagement. So does equate to an actual 72pt engagement?
    No, 24 engagement points, 3 pawls engaging at the same time.
    Ride more!

  16. #16
    mtbr member
    Reputation: traffic002's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    1,938
    Quote Originally Posted by asphaltdude
    No, 24 engagement points, 3 pawls engaging at the same time.
    So 24pt engagement every 15*. But with three pawls, reliable? Hm, so even the ZTR hub is on the lwer end of middle? And a shimano XT is 36pt? Wow. Guess that makes it the best value hub?

    Are the Arch rims worth running higher end hubs?

  17. #17
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    123
    The stock rear hubs will give you fits.....

    I have to rebuild mine every 6 months...

    Even if you just rebuild the rear wheel with a Surly hub and ACS freewheel your life will be better.....

    My winter project is a new set of wheels, just need to find the right color combos, what a sad way to make choices...

    Profile's new hubs are supposed to have 204 points of engagement......

    http://www.profileracing.com/news_full.php?id=902

    I know they'll probally come in a SS option, not as cheap as say Surly, but less than Kings.....
    Attached Images Attached Images

  18. #18
    mtbr member
    Reputation: traffic002's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    1,938
    Quote Originally Posted by Yeti Clyde
    The stock rear hubs will give you fits.....

    I have to rebuild mine every 6 months...

    Even if you just rebuild the rear wheel with a Surly hub and ACS freewheel your life will be better.....

    My winter project is a new set of wheels, just need to find the right color combos, what a sad way to make choices...

    Profile's new hubs are supposed to have 204 points of engagement......

    http://www.profileracing.com/news_full.php?id=902

    I know they'll probally come in a SS option, not as cheap as say Surly, but less than Kings.....
    So I'm assuming these aren't the same hubs..."only" $227...


    They sure do look nice.

    So what's the engagement on the Surly's like? Yes, I am on a budget. Somehow, spending half the price of my bike on a hub just doesn't sound right. Granted, I do want to get quality. But I'm trying to strike that balance.

  19. #19
    mtbr member
    Reputation: traffic002's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    1,938
    So looking on bicyclewheelwarehouse.com, looks like a set of WTB Speedisc 29 wheelset with XT hubs run about $180. Front = 1042g, rear = 1230g, wheel set = 2272g

    The same rim with only changing out the rear hub to DT 240 adds $220 to the price. (front DT 240 puts it another $155 up.

    So is the $220 worth the upgrade? I'm assuming the meat and potatoes is in the rear hubs, right?

    $180 with XT hubs. $400 with XT front/DT240 rear. ????? or $555 with DT240 f/r hubs.

    (btw, looking at the Mavic wheelset $55 more, it's about 100g lighter. Also, running DT240 front/rear shaves another 200g...so $610)

    I'm not a weight weenie. Nor do I care for much bling. But man, 200g is 1/2 #. Plus another 100g possible. No telling how much these wheels weigh less than the MC Flight wheels either! Drop the 'Cog's weight to under 25# is not too difficult I see. Oh, I can see this being a very slippery slope.

  20. #20
    Life is Go0d!
    Reputation: mo0se's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    891
    You can make it closer to 22lbs for 200 beans. Origin 8, or White brothers carbon fork. just a bit over 20 with a lighter set of cranks and wheels. Or, you can just ride the hell out of it, and forget what I just said. :-) Peter, at misfit psycles can build a good wheel, his prices are good too.
    The only regrets in life, are the risks you didn't take.

  21. #21
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    123
    Quote Originally Posted by traffic002
    So I'm assuming these aren't the same hubs..."only" $227...


    They sure do look nice.

    So what's the engagement on the Surly's like? Yes, I am on a budget. Somehow, spending half the price of my bike on a hub just doesn't sound right. Granted, I do want to get quality. But I'm trying to strike that balance.

    No, those are the older hubs, I just posted the new Profiles because the 204 points of engagement intrigued me......

    I'm in the same situation as you......

    I have a Monocog which I've put some $, but the task of building a new wheel set can get crazy.....

    Just to rebuild the rear wheel with a Surly hub and a ACS freewheel (no cassette) would be the cheapest option, not to mention the headache of the Formula cassette hub would go away.......

    Yes, as some said the ACS is noisy, but will last and is cheap.....

    In fact, you

  22. #22
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    1,255
    Quote Originally Posted by traffic002
    So looking on bicyclewheelwarehouse.com, looks like a set of WTB Speedisc 29 wheelset with XT hubs run about $180. Front = 1042g, rear = 1230g, wheel set = 2272g

    The same rim with only changing out the rear hub to DT 240 adds $220 to the price. (front DT 240 puts it another $155 up.

    So is the $220 worth the upgrade? I'm assuming the meat and potatoes is in the rear hubs, right?

    $180 with XT hubs. $400 with XT front/DT240 rear. ????? or $555 with DT240 f/r hubs.

    (btw, looking at the Mavic wheelset $55 more, it's about 100g lighter. Also, running DT240 front/rear shaves another 200g...so $610)

    I'm not a weight weenie. Nor do I care for much bling. But man, 200g is 1/2 #. Plus another 100g possible. No telling how much these wheels weigh less than the MC Flight wheels either! Drop the 'Cog's weight to under 25# is not too difficult I see. Oh, I can see this being a very slippery slope.
    DT240s have 24pts of engagment, nice hub but not for singlespeed (I think they have a SS version though).

    If you want to save weight, save it farthest from the axel, it will create the greatest amount of centripetal force and make your wheels feel heavier and sluggish. So try to save weight in the rims and (this is already quoted but I meant spokes ) nipples, the hubs do make a difference but not as much.

    Stan's rims are some of the best IMO. Expensive but quality build and a dream to setup tubeless.

    2200g isn't bad for a cheaper wheelset, really you could go much worse.
    Last edited by Renovatio; 09-28-2009 at 02:18 PM.

  23. #23
    mtbr member
    Reputation: traffic002's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    1,938
    Quote Originally Posted by Renovatio
    DT240s have 24pts of engagment, nice hub but not for singlespeed (I think they have a SS version though).

    If you want to save weight, save it farthest from the axel, it will create the greatest amount of centripetal force and make your wheels feel heavier and sluggish. So try to save weight in the rims and nipples, the hubs do make a difference but not as much.

    Stan's rims are some of the best IMO. Expensive but quality build and a dream to setup tubeless.

    2200g isn't bad for a cheaper wheelset, really you could go much worse.
    Excellent point(s)!

    I would prefer the 36pt engagement of the XT hubs if anything (with respect to singlespeed), correct?

    And I could look into lighter rims run...gulp...tubeless.

    So it sounds like the XT hubs are the best bang for the buck for our application? Is Surly or any other brands a better option?

  24. #24
    mtbr member
    Reputation: traffic002's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    1,938
    Quote Originally Posted by mo0se
    You can make it closer to 22lbs for 200 beans. Origin 8, or White brothers carbon fork. just a bit over 20 with a lighter set of cranks and wheels. Or, you can just ride the hell out of it, and forget what I just said. :-) Peter, at misfit psycles can build a good wheel, his prices are good too.
    Well, not sure I'm ready to go full bling. Surely the price is out of my range.

    But I seem to be greatly attracted to the Hope Pro 2 SS/trials hub...

    Would I be committing suicide trying to build my own wheel? Or should I just look for a wheelset on e-bay?

  25. #25
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    447
    just ride the heck out of them. bearings can be had (cartridge, easy to replace) and go until the freehub dies. My redline freehub is a few years old and still working fine. don't get hung up on worrying about them.

  26. #26
    mtbr member
    Reputation: traffic002's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    1,938
    Quote Originally Posted by racerdave
    just ride the heck out of them. bearings can be had (cartridge, easy to replace) and go until the freehub dies. My redline freehub is a few years old and still working fine. don't get hung up on worrying about them.
    I have never broken anything out of just use. Usually it involves impacting some immovable trail feature.

    I'm 165# at my heaviest and I'm a finesse technical XC rider. So I don't "abuse" my equipment at all. Chances are, the Redline hubs will last me 10yrs.

    So I have to go 10yrs with lousy engagement...

  27. #27
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    447
    lol

    You don't have to use them... if the engagement bugs you, then have a rear wheel built up with a surly rear hub and freewheel. Probably easier to buy a whole new rear wheel, or look for one on ebay.

    I use mine as my "beater" set.

Members who have read this thread: 1

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

THE SITE

ABOUT MTBR

VISIT US AT

mtbr.com and the ConsumerReview Network are business units of Invenda Corporation

(C) Copyright 1996-2018. All Rights Reserved.