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  1. #1
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    Horizontal Dropouts, Quick Release, and Braking

    I've got a set of Easton Havoc wheels set up on a Santa Cruz Chameleon. This bike is geared, so I've got the axle pushed all the way up in the dropouts. When I brake hard though, the axle slips back on the brake side.

    I was wondering if Surly Tuggnuts would keep the axle from slipping back on the brake side or if they only prevent the axle from being pulled forward on the drive side? If not, any other good solutions? Trying to avoid converting the rear hub to solid axle.

    Thanks!
    slide

  2. #2
    meatier showers
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    Quote Originally Posted by slide mon
    I've got a set of Easton Havoc wheels set up on a Santa Cruz Chameleon. This bike is geared, so I've got the axle pushed all the way up in the dropouts. When I brake hard though, the axle slips back on the brake side.

    I was wondering if Surly Tuggnuts would keep the axle from slipping back on the brake side or if they only prevent the axle from being pulled forward on the drive side? If not, any other good solutions? Trying to avoid converting the rear hub to solid axle.

    Thanks!
    slide
    Tugs won't help. Tighten the QR a bit more? If that doesn't work, check your brand of QR. Shimano seems to have the most clamping force.

    --sParty
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  3. #3
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    Get yourself some XT skewers on ebay for $20.

  4. #4
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    just finished my first ss and had the same issue. i purchase origin 8 QR(they were way cheap) and my wheel would slip. My LBS had some salsa's and so far(20 miles) they seem to be holding tight.

  5. #5
    Retro Grouch
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparticus
    Tugs won't help. Tighten the QR a bit more? If that doesn't work, check your brand of QR. Shimano seems to have the most clamping force.

    --sParty
    There are only two skewers worth using on horizontal dropouts; Shimano and Campagnolo (many forget that Tullio invented the QR to work on horizontal dropouts). Since no one I know use Campy, your stuck with Shimano. The reason has to do with the difference between the clamping power of an interior cam vs exterior cam. From Sheldon Brown

    When you close the skewer, your hand strength is accomplishing two things: It's applying a clamping force to the skewer, and it's overcoming the mechanical friction of the mechanism.

    Quick Release skewers come in two distinct types: Enclosed cam and Exposed cam designs.

    Enclosed cam:Internal Cam Skewer
    The original type of quick release skewer, invented by Tullio Campagnolo features a steel cam, surrounded by a solid metal body. The body is the part that moves back and forth as you flip the lever, usually has teeth to press against the left dropout.

    The cam is well shielded against contamination, can be lubricated by applying a couple of drops of oil every couple of years.

    Exposed cam:External Cam Skewer
    Sometime in the '80s, a variant type of skewer was introduced, one that is less expensive to manufacture, and is sometimes a bit lighter. This type uses a split external cam that straddles the end of the skewer. External cam skewers use a curved plastic washer between the cam and the toothed metal washer that presses against the dropout.

    This type was originally marketed as an "upgrade" because they could be made a little bit lighter.

    Despite the marketing hype associated with these "boutique" skewers, they are actually considerably inferior in functionality to the traditional type. They are often seen under rather prestigious names, as was the one photographed here. (I photoshopped the logo off, so as not to pick on one particular brand.)

    The exposed cam can not be kept as clean and well lubricated as the shielded one can.

    In addition, the exposed cam is a larger diameter, (typically 16 mm vs 7 mm for an enclosed cam) so the friction is acting on a longer moment arm (the radius of the cam.)

    The result is that the exposed cam type provides very much less clamping force for a given amount of hand force on the lever.

    Fortunately, the move toward "boutique" skewers happened after the industry had mostly moved to frames with vertical dropouts and forks with "lawyer lips."

    The exposed-cam skewers are generally OK for vertical dropouts in back, and for forks with "lawyer lips", but should not be relied on with horizontal dropouts or plain forks.
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  6. #6
    Ovaries on the Outside
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    I have never had this problem. Some of that might be because I use Shimano QR or because I use bolt on or because I use a chain tug. Well, until I couldn't. In any case, I'd start with XT QRs because they keep their resale.

  7. #7
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    I have horizontal dropouts on my CrossCheck. I had the same wheel slipping problem, till I got a DT Swiss RWS skewer. More costly than a Shimano skewer, but something different to look at.

  8. #8
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    I've run both a Shimano QR and a 10mm RWS thru-bolt and both prevented any slipping while braking on my Inbred. That said, the Inbred's different caliper location probably directs the braking forces differently too

  9. #9
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    Sinz tensioners work.
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  10. #10
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    Thanks all. Went through the parts drawer, no XT skewers, but found a spare DTSwiss and a Deore skewer on my wife's bike so will give those a try. Have also tried Mavic, Salsa and Easton. Salsa seems to be the worst of the bunch.

    Was also wondering - on the chain tugs, there are 2 axle holes. Wonder if there's enough room to stick a short 10mm bolt and nut through the other hole to hold it in place? Probably not enough room for both the bolt and skewer...

    -slide

  11. #11
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    RE: Bolt through hole in tugnut--Even if you could, it's overkill. Plus, think of when you've got to change tires or adjust chain tension. Too much hassle, IMO. Might as well just get a bolt on axle at that point.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by p nut
    RE: Bolt through hole in tugnut--Even if you could, it's overkill. Plus, think of when you've got to change tires or adjust chain tension. Too much hassle, IMO. Might as well just get a bolt on axle at that point.
    True. Solid axle conversion is $110 on a $280 wheelset (screaming bikebling deal) though. I'd rather spend $200 on a half assed solution that doesn't work than spend $110 on that bolt on axle.

    -slide

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