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  1. #1
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    Help me choose a dropout for my frame

    I've been dreaming about a custom SS for 3 years and finally put a deposit down on a Waltworks frame . I currently ride a Karate Monkey and I like the stye of dropout it has, I've never had a problem with slippage or wheel removal using a bolt on hub. Am I missing out by not getting a Paragon sliding, or rocker dropout? What's your experience?
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    Last edited by pushinpixels; 01-19-2012 at 12:00 PM.

  2. #2
    President of the Internet
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    I dig sliding mounts. Mine don't slip with the tugs.
    Sometimes you eat the trail, sometimes the trail eats you.

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  3. #3
    Ovaries on the Outside
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    I've done hos and sliders and haven't minded any of the set ups. Hos are the versatile option, sliders more work, but if you are doing a single ratio for a long period, can be the tits.

  4. #4
    The need for singlespeed
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    I'd go with Paul's for horizontal. They're elegant.

  5. #5
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    Black Cat swing drops.

  6. #6
    Bro Mountainbiker
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    You cant beat track ends for simplicity. My custom frame would have them.
    Raised in a Chicken-Coop by Chickens

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by p nut View Post
    Black Cat swing drops.
    This. Have a set, trouble free and super easy to adjust properly.

  8. #8
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    I love the look of Black Cat's swing drops.
    If you're lucky enough to be in the mountains,
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  9. #9
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    I like the Paragon sliders w/ the integrated brake tab, but I don't like dickin w/ brake adjustments.

  10. #10
    A Gentleman and a MTBR'
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    Quote Originally Posted by umarth View Post
    I've done hos
    hehe

    I've had both sliders and track ends and been happy with both. The sliders were great when set up and made fiddling with the disc brakes less of an issue. track ends are great for simplicity, I have them on a V-braked bike now and they're fine, especially with a chain-tug. I have a SS custom in the works now, and the builder (who I've known for a few years and always gives sound advice) recommends I go with the swing style dropouts for the build. it sounds like they come with the a stamp of approval here as well.

  11. #11
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    I really like the simplicity of horizontal "track ends". If going custom, I'd find some nice ones tho, with replaceable stainless inserts.

  12. #12
    fresh fish in stock...... SuperModerator
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    i run these:

    custom Hunter swingers

    zero slippage...set it and forget it.

    they're sexy too.
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  13. #13
    A Gentleman and a MTBR'
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    ... and super pretty!

  14. #14
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    any type of sliders, paragon or Black Cat or Hunter

    I've had them all, paragon sliders, horizontal, paragon swingers, and the swingers are the most elegant, simple solution for running SS..also sexy and will give you many options(if you want to change them to Rohloff for example)

  15. #15
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    None of the sliders or swingers mentioned have rack mounts, which a must for me. I've got Surly track ends and Kona sliders, and both have rack mounts. I like them both, but the track ends are more trouble to remove the rear wheel (I have to loosen the disc caliper - not much fun at -20 C. Been there). So the Kona is my winter bike.

  16. #16
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    I had my custom Standard built with the Paragon Rocker dropouts. I figured since they were the newest product from a well respected company they'd work well. They don't. There is no set screw to keep them from sliding forward, and the ti bolts that they came with rounded out below torque spec. I swapped them with some heavier duty 6mm bolts and it's a little better. I can get a couple of rides in before readjustment.
    Thinking about tapping a hole and using a set screw, which will probably solve the problem.
    If I were to do it over again I'd go with Black Cat.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by pushinpixels View Post
    I've been dreaming about a custom SS for 3 years and finally put a deposit down on a Waltworks frame . I currently ride a Karate Monkey and I like the stye of dropout it has, I've never had a problem with slippage or wheel removal using a bolt on hub. Am I missing out by not getting a Paragon sliding, or rocker dropout? What's your experience?
    I have a WW an love it! Paragon sliders--no squeaking, no fussy set up problems for me (YMMV). I was smitten with the looks of the Black Cat dropouts--actually smitten with the look of Todd's bikes in general--but Walt had just used some on his own bike at the time and deterred me [for a reason, follow this link to a search for "Black Cat" on Walt's blog]. My suggestion is talk directly to Walt about the types you've narrowed it down to--he won't make a build decision for you, but he'll offer his opinions as the builder of your bike on whatever you want. I hope you don't have too long of a wait, although the anticipation and fidgeting about this kind of detail can be quite a kick.
    Bb
    Yeah well, that's just, ya' know, like, your opinion, man.

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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by jack in the matrix View Post
    None of the sliders or swingers mentioned have rack mounts, which a must for me. I've got Surly track ends and Kona sliders, and both have rack mounts. I like them both, but the track ends are more trouble to remove the rear wheel (I have to loosen the disc caliper - not much fun at -20 C. Been there). So the Kona is my winter bike.
    The rack mounts go on the frame, not the sliders or swingers. Any builder will add rack mounts to a custom frame, hopefully in a spot that doesn't interfere with the disc caliper!

    I am going to throw another option out there: EBB! I know they are not in favor anymore, but I still prefer them. I have never tried any of the swingers, and that Hunter setup looks super sweet, but I was not happy with track ends or sliders.

    I had an On One inbred that required some kind of chaintug, which just complicated everything. Why do I have to buy another part to make my frame work right? And the disc caliper had to be adjusted whenever you move the wheel. You also had to be careful to keep the wheel centered everytime you mounted the wheel. PITA

    I sold that frame and got a Carver with sliding droupouts, which is better than the On One, but still not ideal. You still have to be careful to keep the wheel centered when adjusting, and no matter how tight everything is, it still moves after a while. Bottom line: Carver Ti frame for sale soon!

    Before I had any of those I had (still have the frame) and old school Hunter SS frame with a pinch bolt EBB, and I still feel that is the best system. It never moved, never made a peep, and is super easy to adjust. No wheelbase changes when adjusting position, and you get a choice of slightly higher BB for techy terrain or slightly lower for a lower CoG. Someone will complain that they need to move the seat when adjusting it, but I never noticed the couple of millimeters difference, I'm usually standing anyway!

    Flame away!

    You may now carry on with your slider/swinger/track end discussion, thank you for your time.

    Mark
    Last edited by bikeny; 01-20-2012 at 07:44 AM.

  19. #19
    What day are we riding?
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    Had a bunch of different styles. Favorite has been my custom swing-style made by Wade at Vulture Cycles. I would go with a swing style as the adjustment motion is off the direct line of the force from pedaling.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikeny View Post
    I sold that frame and got a Carver with sliding droupouts, which is better than the On One, but still not ideal. You still have to be careful to keep the wheel centered when adjusting, and no matter how tight everything is, it still moves after a while. Bottom line: Carver Ti frame for sale soon!
    You should replace those sliders with swing drops.

  21. #21
    www.EpicCyclist.com
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    I have paragon sliders with ti bolts and so far never had a problem (going on three years). My bike lives mainly on the north shore/whistler area and get beaten up pretty good.(drops jumps...)

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbmxer View Post
    I had my custom Standard built with the Paragon Rocker dropouts. I figured since they were the newest product from a well respected company they'd work well. They don't. There is no set screw to keep them from sliding forward, and the ti bolts that they came with rounded out below torque spec. I swapped them with some heavier duty 6mm bolts and it's a little better. I can get a couple of rides in before readjustment.
    Thinking about tapping a hole and using a set screw, which will probably solve the problem.
    If I were to do it over again I'd go with Black Cat.
    Hmmm, my new build is in progress using these, the Ti/Rohloff version and I opted for the beefier bolt upgrade at time of purchase. Decision was made for pretty similar reasons to yourself but also as I wanted rack/guard mounts and the caliper on the chainstay, plus rohloff/derailleur options.

    I'd be interested in any more detail you may have or hearing about any fixes you try. Possibly the fact that I won't be SS may lessen the load. I know this is the SS forum but this particular build is a touring bike. Have you used any threadlock of any kind, I'm sure I read the bolts needed the blue stuff on them?

    I must admit I'd been slightly hesitant re the lack of set screw but I'd kind of bought the whole 'not needed due to different direction of force' argument. I suppose absolute worst that can happen is I need to create some sort of set screw workaround.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacB View Post
    Hmmm, my new build is in progress using these, the Ti/Rohloff version and I opted for the beefier bolt upgrade at time of purchase. Decision was made for pretty similar reasons to yourself but also as I wanted rack/guard mounts and the caliper on the chainstay, plus rohloff/derailleur options.

    I'd be interested in any more detail you may have or hearing about any fixes you try. Possibly the fact that I won't be SS may lessen the load. I know this is the SS forum but this particular build is a touring bike. Have you used any threadlock of any kind, I'm sure I read the bolts needed the blue stuff on them?

    I must admit I'd been slightly hesitant re the lack of set screw but I'd kind of bought the whole 'not needed due to different direction of force' argument. I suppose absolute worst that can happen is I need to create some sort of set screw workaround.
    I used the blue threadlock on the "upgraded" ti bolts. I didn't use a torque wrench on them at first because I knew I would be under the torque spec. The dropouts slipped fairly soon into the first ride. Next I used a torque wrench. Paragon says to make sure to use a new hex tool, which I did, and that the upper end of the torque spec could round out the steel bolt, but shouldn't be a problem for the ti. Well, the ti bolt head rounded out just below the lower end of the torque spec.
    With the heavier duty 6mm bolts in there the axle creeps forward much more slowly. I've only dropped a chain once in the three months I've had the bike.
    I researched the Rockers as much as I could before and after I decided on them and have yet to find any kind of review of them actually being ridden. They don't creak and they are easy to adjust, so I guess that's good.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbmxer View Post
    I used the blue threadlock on the "upgraded" ti bolts. I didn't use a torque wrench on them at first because I knew I would be under the torque spec. The dropouts slipped fairly soon into the first ride. Next I used a torque wrench. Paragon says to make sure to use a new hex tool, which I did, and that the upper end of the torque spec could round out the steel bolt, but shouldn't be a problem for the ti. Well, the ti bolt head rounded out just below the lower end of the torque spec.
    With the heavier duty 6mm bolts in there the axle creeps forward much more slowly. I've only dropped a chain once in the three months I've had the bike.
    I researched the Rockers as much as I could before and after I decided on them and have yet to find any kind of review of them actually being ridden. They don't creak and they are easy to adjust, so I guess that's good.
    Thank you, sounds like a mirror image of my researches. On a previous build I actually ended up speccing the Forward Components mini EBB. Just because I didn't like the sliders from an aesthetic viewpoint nor their limitations around racks/guards. I've got to be honest I thought the Rocker dropouts were the perfect solution, both aesthetically and practically.

    It sounds as if they are everything they were meant to be apart from slippage potential. I wonder if future variations will see some sort of retention bolt added. I'll see how mine pan out, the Paragon site actually claims that the upgraded Ti bolts can cope with being over torqued. It's quite easy to see how a further retention device could be added. Possibly even a slight modification of an existing tugnut design and fitted to the lower bolt. If it does prove to be an ongoing issue hopefully Paragon will do a redesign but also issue an upgrade/add-on for existing dropouts.

    In the meantime I'll proceed carefully and be prepared to employ even beefier bolts if need be...thanks again for the feedback...I'm focusing on clinging to the positives right now

  25. #25
    Dive Bomber
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    Quote Originally Posted by CHUM View Post
    i run these:

    custom Hunter swingers

    zero slippage...set it and forget it.

    they're sexy too.
    This is so cool, the best adjustable DO system so far.

    I like this one too.
    It's Kona Explosif 2008 not mine though.

    The other one is my bike, picture taken from official websites.
    Honestly I kinda hated mine, even with 3 bolts on each side it still cause my brakepad to scratch the rotor.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Help me choose a dropout for my frame-kona_do.jpg  

    Help me choose a dropout for my frame-do_dx.jpg  

    Last edited by jackspade; 01-21-2012 at 07:34 AM.

  26. #26
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    I've been on Paragon sliders for 5 years (two different bikes) and have never had a problem. That said, if the track ends on your KM work for you and how you ride then stick with that. I think track ends look more organic.

    I've also had bikes with EBB and track ends and find that no matter what tension system a SS uses there is always some fiddle factor in setting up tension.

    Check out the Coconino Coco-Moto drop outs at the bottom of this link Designed to get your rear wheel in and out without having to dink with the disc caliper. Good possibility Walt could get those for you.

    Have fun with your build.

  27. #27
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    Hey guys, thanks for your suggestions. It sounds like the sliders are built proof reliable, but a bit fussy to set up. I was secretly cheering for the rockers but I'm paranoid about slippage... The Coconino dropouts look like a great option if Walt can get them.

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