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  1. #1
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    ENO Eccentric Slippage......HELP!!!

    Who else here has had problems with their wheel slipping with their ENO Eccentric and how was it solved ? I've had this wheel built for over 2 months now and have not been riding because of this problem. The shops here are not familiar with the hub, and can't seem to offer any help. The frame is a 2001 Steelman manzanita, which has been nothing but a P.O.S. bike since day one. I must've scored the lemon. This could be the real problem.

    I've already sent the frame back once to have a new hanger/dropout rewelded on and I think part of the problem could still be due to frame alignment, even though I've only ridden it twice since it was supposedly fixed. The problem was there from the start. The wheel wants to sit to the non-drive side so I always end up having to tweak it a little to keep it as centered as possible. Is that bad ? I've torqued the bolts until I can't get them to turn anymore. Within minutes of the ride though, it slips and ends up back to the non-drive side with less chain tension. My brakes rub my tire, and in the worse case my tire rubs my chainstay. It has been very frustrating...causing me to not hit the trails.

    Somebody please help before I become a full fledged rail trail rider ! All summer 99.9% of my rides have been one my Trek ss pulling my little on behind in her Burley, which has been great, but I want to hit some singletrack. I'm supposed to be going on a 5 day trip to some of the best singletrack in WV in 3 weeks and I need to get some real miles in beforhand.

    Somebody please help!!! I want to ride my bicycle, I want to ride my bike !

    Thanks.
    Last edited by chili; 07-18-2005 at 01:49 PM.
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  2. #2
    drev-il, not Dr. Evil!
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    Quote Originally Posted by chili
    Who else here has had problems with their wheel slipping with their ENO and how was it solved ? I've had this wheel built for over 2 months now and have not been riding because of this problem. The shops here are not familiar with the hub, and can't seem to offer any help. The frame is a 2001 Steelman manzanita, which has been nothing but a P.O.S. bike since day one. I must've scored the lemon. This could be the real problem.

    I've already sent the frame back once to have a new hanger/dropout rewelded on and I think part of the problem could still be due to frame alignment, even though I've only ridden it twice since it was supposedly fixed. The problem was there from the start. The wheel wants to sit to the non-drive side so I always end up having to tweak it a little to keep it as centered as possible. Is that bad ? I've torqued the bolts until I can't get them to turn anymore. Within minutes of the ride though, it slips and ends up back to the non-drive side with less chain tension. My brakes rub my tire, and in the worse case my tire rubs my chainstay. It has been very frustrating...causing me to not hit the trails.

    Somebody please help before I become a full fledged rail trail rider ! All summer 99.9% of my rides have been on my Trek ss pulling my little on behind in her Burley, which has been great, but I want to hit some singletrack. I'm supposed to be going on a 5 day trip to some of the best singletrack in WV in 3 weeks and I need to get some real miles in beforhand.

    Somebody please help!!! I want to ride my bicycle, I want to ride my bike !

    Thanks.
    Are you sure the wheel is dished properly?
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  3. #3
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    tight here

    how tight are the bolts on the ENO when you have it on the frame?

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by ernesto_from_Wisconsin
    how tight are the bolts on the ENO when you have it on the frame?
    Last time they were as tight as I could possibly get them. I cranked them down until they would turn no more. Maybe I should workout ?
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drevil
    Are you sure the wheel is dished properly?

    A friend built the wheel, who has had lots of experience doing so, although never with ENO or singlespeed hubs in general. I watched as he built it and it seemed perfect, although I personally have no wheel building experience whatsoever. The dishing was my first assumption too and I asked him to check it as soon as I noticed it. He checked it out again and said it was fine. Since it is a ss hub though, is there actually any dishing involved? All spokes where the same length and he built it centered. If the wheel is not properly dished, which could be the reason it sits in the frame off-centered, could that casue the slipping ?

    Maybe I should find another frame to try it out in and see how it sits? I tried it in my trek, but its pretty beat up and while it did sit off centered in it too, so does every other wheel I put in it. It's steel, over 10 years old, and has seen its fair share of abuse.
    Last edited by chili; 07-18-2005 at 07:52 AM.
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  6. #6
    JJT
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    To make things clear, you are not talking about a Eccentric, just the normal ENO hub?

    So after you ride for a while, the wheel visibly slipped from the dropout (please define 'slippage')?
    Did you try another wheel?
    Do you feel any play on the bearrings when the wheel is installed?

  7. #7
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    Eccentric.

    Quote Originally Posted by JJT
    To make things clear, you are not talking about a Eccentric, just the normal ENO hub?

    So after you ride for a while, the wheel visibly slipped from the dropout (please define 'slippage')?
    Did you try another wheel?
    Do you feel any play on the bearrings when the wheel is installed?

    Sorry...I am talking about the Eccentric. Yes...it is slightly visible in the dropouts, but moreso looking down at the wheel between the chainstays. On friday though, it was mosly visible between the chainstays. As usual, my chain lost tension and my brakes started rubbing. Maybe I had too much chain tension to begin with ?

    I've not tried another wheel because I don't have another wheel that I know is in good condition, i.e. properly true and dished. I'm typically broke and I ride things until they can no longer be ridden. The wheel on my other bike was a 'hand me down' from a friend and is not in the best of shape.

    There seems to be no play in the bearings. I wish there was somebody around here that has some familiarity with this hub. I have a feeling my problem would be more easily solved.
    Last edited by chili; 07-18-2005 at 08:07 AM.
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  8. #8
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    New question here. Dropouts?

    What sorta dropouts are we dealing with, vertical or semi-horizontal?? Sounds to me like you are having to center the wheel/tire in the frame by NOT allowing the axle to sit snugly in the dropout on both sides.

    Perhaps a little bit of "dropout filing" is in order? Had to "deepen" the right dropout on my old Stumpy to get the wheel to sit nicely....and had the same problem as you, or so it sounds! My wheel was not seated in the left dropout, but once I filed just a bit deeper on the right, perfection and no slippage!


    Edit. Rereading your initial post, re: "a new hanger/dropout installed", I believe your problem IS simply a shallow right dropout. When you slip the axle ALL the way into the dropouts, the wheel should not be cocked to one side....but your's IS now, no?
    Last edited by xrmattaz; 07-18-2005 at 08:08 AM.

  9. #9
    drev-il, not Dr. Evil!
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    Check your frame alignment. BTW, are you rotating the hub up or down? It sounds to me like when you are cocking the wheel to one side to get it centered in the frame, the hub endcaps aren't sitting flush with the frame.
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  10. #10
    try driving your car less
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    Quote Originally Posted by chili
    Last time they were as tight as I could possibly get them. I cranked them down until they would turn no more. Maybe I should workout ?
    i had to put some lube on the bolts (threads) which helped get em tighter.
    but maybe you are just a total girlie-man!
    Only boring people get bored.

  11. #11
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    Is the lobe of the eccentric above or below the bolt? Does that make sense? I think the small part of the eccentric should be on top, and the large part on the bottom. That way when you are pedaling there is less of a "lever arm" trying to make the axle slip.

  12. #12
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    Mine has never slipped but then again it is on a fat chance and I know the alignment is as good as it gets. mine is set up so that pusing down on the seat while the wheel is on the ground increases the chain tension

  13. #13
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    Sounds like something is either wrong with the hub or the frame. Sorry if these are obvious... 1) Make sure the eccentric axle ends are attached to the hub properly/securely. 2) Have a reputable LBS check the frame alignment... at least the rear dropouts.

  14. #14
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    Update...

    Quote Originally Posted by aosty
    Sounds like something is either wrong with the hub or the frame. Sorry if these are obvious... 1) Make sure the eccentric axle ends are attached to the hub properly/securely. 2) Have a reputable LBS check the frame alignment... at least the rear dropouts.

    Well..after taking it to the shop, I'm not sure if anything was really solved. The mechanic had never seen one of these hubs before. He said my wheel was only out of dish by a very small amount, not enough to worry about or enought that would cause the problem of it sitting off center. He said my frame was only out of alignment a very small amount, but not enough to worry about or that would cause the problem. Too small of an amout to try to fix...? Apparently so.

    He said he thought it was slipping due to two very smooth surfaces being in contact under a lot of torque, and probably due to me trying to sit the wheel in the frame centered, cuasing the bolts not to tighten flush, as Drevil mentioned above. He also said to put a little lube on the threas like somebody else here suggested too. He put two thin serrated washers behind the bolts so they would grag and tighten down to the frame more. As far as it sitting in the frame off centered, it still does. He said I'd have to live with it and not to worry about it. It will track to that side a little, but I wouldn't notice it. Is it really an issue or should I just ignore it ? If it rubs the chain stays under flex, I should get smaller tires.

    Right now I'm running WTB Velociraptors, which are a little wide, but not compared to some of the tires guys on here are running. I have the hub rotated down to give me more clearance at the top of the tire and seatstays, which does decrease the distance between the chainstays. I took it for a test ride around town trying to torque as much as possible int the streets, and it didn't slip but its still off centered as before. Do I just ingore it ? It really isn't that much, but it is enough to notice by eye. If I had smaller tires, it probably wouldn't be as noticable. There is nowhere else around here to get a better second opinion.

    Thanks to everyone for the help and suggestions. I guess the true test will be on the trails, hopefully soon.
    Last edited by chili; 07-19-2005 at 07:11 AM.
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  15. #15
    drev-il, not Dr. Evil!
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    A friend of mine had a slipping eccentric ENO hub, and this is what he did to remedy it. Before you try it, know that it's at your own risk and I won't take responsibility for it!

    Anyways, he took a chisel and knurled the edges of the the endcaps (the part that contacts the frame). By doing this, he basically created little teeth that helped to better bite into his frame, and he reported that it never slips anymore.

    If you do this and really bugger it up, well, they are easily replaceable, but I have no clue how much they cost.

    However, this does nothing to solve your centering problem. If there is a threat of it rubbing the chainstays, go with a skinnier tire as a temporary fix.

    BTW, XRMattaz's advice sounds good to me if there was enough material on the dropout, and after figuring out that it wouldn't take a lot of filing. Just make sure when you are doing it that you work slowly, surely and steadily.

    Let us know how it goes.
    Last edited by Drevil; 07-19-2005 at 06:50 AM.
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drevil

    However, this does nothing to solve your centering problem. If there is a threat of it rubbing the chainstays, go with a skinnier tire as a temporary fix.
    Thanks...I'd rather not have to make any permanent modifciations to either the hub or frame either, but I would like to come up with a permanent fix of the centering issue. First, I think I'll try to have have somebody else check the allignment.

    It could be a problem with mix-matched dropouts, and filing them could be the answer, but how do I know which side to file ? It seems I would have to file the non-drive side where its practically rubbing. When I had the driveside dropout replaced, Steelman modified it with a replaceable hanger. I don't think he'd ever done this before. There is a slightly noticable difference in the dropouts. I'll try to get some pics of everything tonight, and maybe my problem will be easier to solve.
    Last edited by chili; 07-19-2005 at 07:48 AM.
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  17. #17
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    Wink Other side

    Same as my Stumpy!

    1) Seat the axle fully into the dropouts.

    2) The left side of the tire/wheel are closer to the left chainstay than the right is, correct?

    3) Using a ROUND file, slowly/carefully remove a bit of material from the
    DRIVESIDE/RIGHT dropout. This will move the tire/wheel towards the right chainstay.

    4. Slip the wheel back in there and eyeball it again. Deepen the dropout a bit more and
    check it again...and again. Eventually you'll have perfect/near perfect wheel alignment.


    You must make a permanent modification, just as Steelman did. He used a "different" replacement dropout....and sounds like he didn't pop a wheel in there to check alignment. If he did, he woulda filed a bit, as I've suggested!

    Note: none of this applies if you have VERTICAL dropouts, which I don't think you do.
    Pics would certainly help!




    Quote Originally Posted by chili
    Thanks...I'd rather not have to make any permanent modifciations to either the hub or frame either, but I would like to come up with a permanent fix of the centering issue. First, I think I'll try to have have somebody else check the allignment.

    It could be a problem with mix-matched dropouts, and filing them could be the answer, but how do I know which side to file ? It seems I would have to file the non-drive side where its practically rubbing. When I had the driveside dropout replaced, Steelman modified it with a replaceable hanger. I don't think he'd ever done this before. There is a slightly noticable difference in the dropouts. I'll try to get some pics of everything tonight, and maybe my problem will be easier to solve.

  18. #18
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    New question here. What kind of tools??

    Quote Originally Posted by chili
    Thanks...I'd rather not have to make any permanent modifciations to either the hub or frame either, but I would like to come up with a permanent fix of the centering issue. First, I think I'll try to have have somebody else check the allignment.

    It could be a problem with mix-matched dropouts, and filing them could be the answer, but how do I know which side to file ? It seems I would have to file the non-drive side where its practically rubbing. When I had the driveside dropout replaced, Steelman modified it with a replaceable hanger. I don't think he'd ever done this before. There is a slightly noticable difference in the dropouts. I'll try to get some pics of everything tonight, and maybe my problem will be easier to solve.
    Lots of Qs
    How long is the allen wrench you are useing?? You'll need one that is long enough to get some torque. Long enough to reach past the heal of your hand.
    Odds are good it is either your muscular legs or your wimpy arms that are the problem.
    Or the Steelman. That would be weird though. Not unheard of.

    Did you buy the Steelman or ENO hub used?

    I say cut hash marks on the frame and bolt thingies that contact the frame so it grabs.

  19. #19
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    Pics would help.

    This is what mine looks like all mounted up... and it never slips.

  20. #20
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    Wink

    Your's "never slips" because the axle is mounted all the way back in the dropouts. It cannot "slip" in this mode!

    The offending wheel is being mounted left side forward (in the dropouts) to compensate for the wheel "pulling" to the left....the axle is not seated in the dropouts. Put some weight and torque on said wheel, and nothing short of a Surly track nut cranked to hell will keep it in place!

    A bit of judicious filing of the RIGHT dropout will center the wheel 'tween the chainstays!

    This ain't rocket science......



    Quote Originally Posted by lucifer
    Pics would help.

    This is what mine looks like all mounted up... and it never slips.

  21. #21
    17.5" pistons of love
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    Quote Originally Posted by xrmattaz
    Your's "never slips" because the axle is mounted all the way back in the dropouts. It cannot "slip" in this mode!

    The offending wheel is being mounted left side forward (in the dropouts) to compensate for the wheel "pulling" to the left....the axle is not seated in the dropouts. Put some weight and torque on said wheel, and nothing short of a Surly track nut cranked to hell will keep it in place!

    A bit of judicious filing of the RIGHT dropout will center the wheel 'tween the chainstays!

    This ain't rocket science......
    The frame in this pic has verticle dropouts, it's not "all the way back", it's just "in" the dropouts. If I understand you, the wheel is still slipping out of a vert dropout, and you have NO horizontal adjustment on your frame (would defeat purpose of eno ecc).

    The one thing as far as the alignment-is it off by the same amount between the chainstays and seatstays? What I'm getting at is that if it sits to the non-drive side on the chainstay and seatstay I would get out my spoke wrench dish the rim over .5mm-1mm and put the wheel "all the way" into the dropout and forget the micro adjusting each time. THEN I would consider knurling up the axle ends or using the knurled washers.

    If the dish is off by "a little" and alignment is off by "a little" it can add up. If your wheel is dished 1mm to the non-drive side, then imagine of it was 1mm to the drive side. Your rim would move 2mm, now take 2mm of clearance from tire to chainstay and add 2mm to the other side. Sounds small but it makes a big difference.
    The Domesticated SSer

  22. #22
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    Idea! Causes and solutions to the problem

    Quote Originally Posted by chili
    Who else here has had problems with their wheel slipping with their ENO Eccentric and how was it solved ?
    I don't have any White Industries ENO parts. But I have a question for you: What size are your chainring and freewheel? If they are very small, there must be huge tension in the chain when you ride. If that is the case, buy bigger freewheel and chainring. For example, if you have 32:16 transmission, you could try 42:21 or even 46:23. I think that 23 teeth freewheels are the biggest available (WI ENO chainrings, nice but expensive). That decreases the tension of the chain that is the original cause of the slipping.

    Anyway, when you have two smooth and hard steel surfaces against each other, the friction between them is not supposed to be great. If the surfaces are different metals (aluminium and steel for example) and the harder surface is not so smooth, you will get better contact and no slippage.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drevil
    If you do this and really bugger it up, well, they are easily replaceable, but I have no clue how much they cost.
    ~$40-$50 retail for a new set of ends according to White Industries.

  24. #24
    17.5" pistons of love
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nikolas
    I don't have any White Industries ENO parts. But I have a question for you: What size are your chainring and freewheel? If they are very small, there must be huge tension in the chain when you ride. If that is the case, buy bigger freewheel and chainring. For example, if you have 32:16 transmission, you could try 42:21 or even 46:23. I think that 23 teeth freewheels are the biggest available (WI ENO chainrings, nice but expensive). That decreases the tension of the chain that is the original cause of the slipping.

    Anyway, when you have two smooth and hard steel surfaces against each other, the friction between them is not supposed to be great. If the surfaces are different metals (aluminium and steel for example) and the harder surface is not so smooth, you will get better contact and no slippage.
    Why would upsizing the drivetrain make any difference? 2:1 is 2:1. The chain runs smoother on bigger rings and fw's due to the decrease in the amount of rotation each inner and outer plate has to make against each other (friction, larger radius) and more teeth in contact. Tension on the chain will be the same, I promise. Please asplain!
    The Domesticated SSer

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    We the people ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Chief Bulging Calves
    Why would upsizing the drivetrain make any difference? 2:1 is 2:1. The chain runs smoother on bigger rings and fw's due to the decrease in the amount of rotation each inner and outer plate has to make against each other (friction, larger radius) and more teeth in contact. Tension on the chain will be the same, I promise. Please asplain!
    The tension on the chain is inversely proportional to the number of teeth of the chainring.

    Ok, got it?

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