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  1. #1
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    Disc Mounts for Horizontals? Photos, Please

    I have a Sycip which has (as far as I know) the oldest design for using disc brakes on a single speed. It was developed By Phil Wood, and uses a block for a Hayes 22mm caliper that allows front-back adjustability.
    I have seen quite a number of designs since this one broke the concept open. I'd love to see photos of some of the different ideas out there. No need for EBB/vertical photos, thanks.
    Here's a shot of the Phil 22mm design:
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  2. #2
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    Here's a Cook Bros- nice and sweet

    Note the bottle opener, too.
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  3. #3
    blame me for missed rides
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    imho these two are the best designs for horizontal dropouts.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by miles
    I have a Sycip which has (as far as I know) the oldest design for using disc brakes on a single speed. It was developed By Phil Wood, and uses a block for a Hayes 22mm caliper that allows front-back adjustability.
    I have seen quite a number of designs since this one broke the concept open. I'd love to see photos of some of the different ideas out there. No need for EBB/vertical photos, thanks.
    Here's a shot of the Phil 22mm design:
    I designed this one for my VooDoo
    <img src="http://www.themudzone.com/bike/ss_disc_mount.jpg">
    <img src="http://www.themudzone.com/bike/fulldisc.jpg">
    The caliper is rotated forward so the wheel can be removed without touching the caliper. The only problem with it is if the axle bolts are not tight the hub moves backwards in the dropout. It only happened twice, both because of operator error.
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  5. #5
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    ... and I use the Paul Disc Unit on my Matt Chester.
    <img src="http://www.themudzone.com/bike/mc/1_build/rbrake4.jpg">
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  6. #6
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    I'm sorry it's not the best quality, but here's a picture of the soon to be launched Soma 4ONE5 with an adjustable disc mount.


  7. #7
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    KM disc mount...

    Quote Originally Posted by miles
    I have a Sycip which has (as far as I know) the oldest design for using disc brakes on a single speed. It was developed By Phil Wood, and uses a block for a Hayes 22mm caliper that allows front-back adjustability.
    I have seen quite a number of designs since this one broke the concept open. I'd love to see photos of some of the different ideas out there. No need for EBB/vertical photos, thanks.
    Here's a shot of the Phil 22mm design:
    Phil design looks ideal. With the KM, you have to loosen both mounting bolts, swivel the brake up, and kind of work the wheel out. Not a big deal at all, really. Sorry if the pic is a bit dark and blurry; it's a blow-up from a frame shot...

    <img src="http://gallery.consumerreview.com/webcrossing/images/KMdiscmount.jpg">
    "I still feel that variable gears are only for people over forty-five. Isn't it better to triumph by the strength of your muscles than by the artifice of a derailleur? We are getting soft...As for me, give me a fixed gear!'' -- Henri Desgrange, from an article in L'Equipe

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  8. #8
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    New question here. Shiggy, how do you like the Paul set-up?...

    Was toying with that idea for my disc-mountless Inbred. You recommend it? Course, for me it would mean I'd have to buy it AND a Paul disc WORD, so "toying" is the operative word here. Still, I'd appreciate your beta on it.
    "I still feel that variable gears are only for people over forty-five. Isn't it better to triumph by the strength of your muscles than by the artifice of a derailleur? We are getting soft...As for me, give me a fixed gear!'' -- Henri Desgrange, from an article in L'Equipe

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  9. #9
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    Here's Bianchi's solution

    It works well enough, but you have to loosen the caliper bolts to remove the rear wheel.

    <img src="http://gallery.consumerreview.com/webcrossing/images/cussdiscrearsm.jpg">

    - John

  10. #10
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    OK, thanks a lot. Great Pix, but my next question is

    Why have adjustable caliper mounts? It seems to me that with an IS caliper, if it were positioned right you would never need to adjust it (once it's set up). Imagine this: a horizontal dropout that has an inch of adjustabilty, as many do. Now imagine the caliper positioned at twelve o'clock relative to a rotor on a hub centered in the dropouts. This means that the hub/rotor can be moved 1/2" forward or back. Well, with a six inch rotor, this will mean that the pads will always, no matter where in the adjustability that the hub sits, sweep the rotor just fine.
    If the disc pad shape or angle mean that at one extreme or the other a little bit of the pad doesn't contact the rotor, so what? Discs provide far more rear brake that necessary... a loss of maybe 10% would really mean nothing.

    Any thoughts?

    Miles

  11. #11
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    Soulcraft

    Paul drop outs and disc "tab" Easy to adjust and lines up perfect!
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  12. #12
    Nouveau Retrogrouch SuperModerator
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    Quote Originally Posted by iconoclaSSt
    Was toying with that idea for my disc-mountless Inbred. You recommend it? Course, for me it would mean I'd have to buy it AND a Paul disc WORD, so "toying" is the operative word here. Still, I'd appreciate your beta on it.
    I works great.
    Pros:
    • Works on any frame with a canti boss (mine use the short OEM arm)
    • Caliper and rotor are always aligned

    Cons:
    • To completely remove the wheel you need to unbolt the arm and the caliper (You can change a tire or tube without doing this).
    • The caliper must be removed to check or change pads
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  13. #13
    Nouveau Retrogrouch SuperModerator
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    Quote Originally Posted by miles
    Why have adjustable caliper mounts? It seems to me that with an IS caliper, if it were positioned right you would never need to adjust it (once it's set up). Imagine this: a horizontal dropout that has an inch of adjustabilty, as many do. Now imagine the caliper positioned at twelve o'clock relative to a rotor on a hub centered in the dropouts. This means that the hub/rotor can be moved 1/2" forward or back. Well, with a six inch rotor, this will mean that the pads will always, no matter where in the adjustability that the hub sits, sweep the rotor just fine.
    If the disc pad shape or angle mean that at one extreme or the other a little bit of the pad doesn't contact the rotor, so what? Discs provide far more rear brake that necessary... a loss of maybe 10% would really mean nothing.

    Any thoughts?

    Miles
    I rarely needed to readjust the caliper position on the VooDoo. If I was just adjusting for chain tension there was no need. If I changed gearing I would recenter the caliper to get it right. I did not know how much adjustment room I would need when I designed it so I put in as much as I could.

    I like to have all of the pad on the rotor. Pad thickness is about 2mm. Rotors are 1.8-2.0mm Wear half way through the pads and they start touching if a corner is not on the rotor. Also if you have a ridge on the pads and then readjust the wheel so the pad is fully on the rotor only the ridge and the far side of the pad are on the rotor and you loose power until it wears down (unevenly).
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  14. #14
    Shortcutting Hikabiker
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    I think these are pretty nifty.

  15. #15
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    Looks like it might suffer from...

    Quote Originally Posted by Acme54321


    I think these are pretty nifty.
    the same "problem" that many forks face, i.e., the braking forces try to push the axle out of the dropout
    "I still feel that variable gears are only for people over forty-five. Isn't it better to triumph by the strength of your muscles than by the artifice of a derailleur? We are getting soft...As for me, give me a fixed gear!'' -- Henri Desgrange, from an article in L'Equipe

    Wrench In the Gears

  16. #16
    Nouveau Retrogrouch SuperModerator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Acme54321
    I think these are pretty nifty.
    I agree but they are not horizontal dropouts.
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  17. #17
    semi-evolved simian
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    Quote Originally Posted by iconoclaSSt
    the same "problem" that many forks face, i.e., the braking forces try to push the axle out of the dropout
    I agree, but no more so than any other vertical dropout disk brake setup. I think the force would be rather more rearward than straight down. But that's a totally layman's perspective on it

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by iconoclaSSt
    the same "problem" that many forks face, i.e., the braking forces try to push the axle out of the dropout
    No problem. It could be if they were horizontal. These are vertical drops and the axle is forced against the back of the drop during braking.
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  19. #19
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    Swept area isssue? I think not!

    Shiggy said: I like to have all of the pad on the rotor. Pad thickness is about 2mm. Rotors are 1.8-2.0mm Wear half way through the pads and they start touching if a corner is not on the rotor. Also if you have a ridge on the pads and then readjust the wheel so the pad is fully on the rotor only the ridge and the far side of the pad are on the rotor and you loose power until it wears down (unevenly).

    It seems to me the easy way to deal with that is to position the setup so that at the farthest reaches of wheel adjustment the pads just barely stay within the radius of the rotor. That way when the rotor is centered, the pads sweep a little bit onto the rotor arms. Presto, no ridge build up on the pads.

    I would agree with you that in practice the caliper VERY rarely ever gets moved. Mine stays where it is 100% of the time. No need to move it to rmove the wheel, no need to move it to adjust tension. The one time I ever changed gearing it didn't need to move. For all practical purposes, it might as well be a fixed mount...

    Miles

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by iconoclaSSt
    the same "problem" that many forks face, i.e., the braking forces try to push the axle out of the dropout
    How to check it this is a problem.
    The wheel will try to pivot around the pad/rotor contact point. Use a compass with the pivot point there and the pencil set on the center of the axle. If the path of the arc matches the opening of the dropout you could have a problem. If the arc runs into the side or top of the dropout - like in the pic below - no problem.
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  21. #21
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    Discs pulling wheels out? Homie don't play dat.

    Imagine this scenario: you reef on your rear brake, and that disc gets enough leverage to launch that wheel right out of your horizontal dropout. Your bike drops down on its back end, and the wheel takes an amusing bounce and clobbers you in the back of the head. "What the heck", you say, "I guess that Annan guy was right after all."

    Now imagine this scenario: you reef on your rear brake, and come to a nice stop. You think nothing of James Annan's theories as you take a sip of water and enjoy the view.

    Which has happened to you?

    I am guessing the second. Here's why- if you have horizontal dropouts, and you have managed to accelerate up to a speed requiring brakes, you must have tightened your hub bolts. Pretty dang tight, too, I'm guessing. Otherwise, the wheel would have pulled itself forward in the dropout, and you wouldn't have needed brakes to come to an immediate stop. The leverage the rear disc has on the wheel is less than that of the drivetrain, and both are severely limited by available traction.
    The reality is that in the real world, discs pulling rear wheels out is a non-issue for single speeders.

    Miles

  22. #22
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    Your scenario speaks to horizontal dropouts...

    Quote Originally Posted by miles
    Imagine this scenario: you reef on your rear brake, and that disc gets enough leverage to launch that wheel right out of your horizontal dropout. Your bike drops down on its back end, and the wheel takes an amusing bounce and clobbers you in the back of the head. "What the heck", you say, "I guess that Annan guy was right after all."

    Now imagine this scenario: you reef on your rear brake, and come to a nice stop. You think nothing of James Annan's theories as you take a sip of water and enjoy the view.

    Which has happened to you?

    I am guessing the second. Here's why- if you have horizontal dropouts, and you have managed to accelerate up to a speed requiring brakes, you must have tightened your hub bolts. Pretty dang tight, too, I'm guessing. Otherwise, the wheel would have pulled itself forward in the dropout, and you wouldn't have needed brakes to come to an immediate stop. The leverage the rear disc has on the wheel is less than that of the drivetrain, and both are severely limited by available traction.
    The reality is that in the real world, discs pulling rear wheels out is a non-issue for single speeders.

    Miles
    The drops pictured (and the ones on which the conversation centers) are vertical, which--if the axle nuts/QR are/is loose--won't slip forward or out due to pedal forces.

    Also, with horizontal drops, it seems that the ground forces against the tire when braking probably contribute to the push out effect (if it happens) . Though it seems like the chain would prevent axle pushout on horizontal drops?
    "I still feel that variable gears are only for people over forty-five. Isn't it better to triumph by the strength of your muscles than by the artifice of a derailleur? We are getting soft...As for me, give me a fixed gear!'' -- Henri Desgrange, from an article in L'Equipe

    Wrench In the Gears

  23. #23
    theHeadlessThompsonGunner
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    I like these...

    <img src='http://gallery.consumerreview.com/webcrossing/images/IMG_2010.jpg'>

    though it's hard to tell from this pic, there are horizontal dropouts behind the proprietary disc mount. The bike is baby blue now, too, and that makes all the difference in the world. I'll try and post a better pic shortly.
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  24. #24
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    No Pic, but my disc 1x1...

    ...worked great. Ran 6" Hope Minis and was able to remove wheel without toying with the caliper. Never adjusted for chain tension, just cog changes.

    That said, me likey me EBB/disc Inbred more gooder.

    Sean
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  25. #25
    ali'i hua
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    http://www.titusti.com/riddler.html

    check out Titus's answer to the deal- similar to quite a few of the others on here. I put the caliper dawn and back in the slots, and I can remove the rear wheel without adjusting the caliper.

    works good!

  26. #26
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    These aren't your normal Horizontals... They are the type of drops on my new planet X ridgeback. There are 4 positions to set the chainstay length. The very inside setting is for 24" wheels and gives a chainstay length of 15.75", the second setting gives 26" wheels a chainstay length of 16", the max setting gives 16.75" chainstays. I am going to be running this 1x9. This frame is super nice and was a serious bargain frame and Fox Vanilla 125R for under $600.

  27. #27
    theHeadlessThompsonGunner
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    More...

    <img src='http://gallery.consumerreview.com/webcrossing/images/IMG_0023(8).jpg'>

    You get the idea...the whole mount slides with the wheel position, and it's rear-entry, so there's no problems when it's time to pop the wheel out.
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  28. #28
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    I have been looking and looking at that disc mount

    and I still can't figure it out. What's the rationale with putting the caliper down below like that? It would seem to me to be an invitation to disaster- bump it on a rock, and bad news ensues...
    Another aspect- that mount looks like a heck of a lot of machine work. More than the typical above-dropout mounts.

    I am puzzled, Mr SDizzle.

    miles

  29. #29
    theHeadlessThompsonGunner
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    I think the only reason...

    they put it down below is to have it rear-entry, which, IMHO, is the only way a disc mount should work. When you're using vertical dropouts, the axle goes into the dropout, and the disc goes into the caliper--it all happens in a straight line. Methinks that SC was just trying to get rid of the need to loosen the caliper bolts every time one wanted to remove the rear wheel. Another way of doing the same thing is to put the caliper between the stays, which would probably be even better, but a bit limited as far as space goes.

    I haven't felt like the caliper or rotor were any more at risk now than they were above. It looks a little sheepish and risky, but hasn't proven so. If anything, the rotor is at less of a risk of me bending it by not having to do yoga to get it into the caliper. It never touches the ground when the bike's on its side, and I've never seen rocks viscious enough to jump up and bite it (only the moon and Arizona are rockier than CO, too). I know one other rider out here with the same setup, and he's been on it for years with no problems--rides significantly crazier than me, too.

    SC changed it for this year, and went with stationary dropouts--you only get one gear option, and the caliper comes off when the wheel does. I don't know why, but it might have been because riders felt the caliper was at risk.
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  30. #30
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    OK, some of that makes sense, but

    how do you adjust chain tension? I see plenty of bolts in the photos, but it isn't clear where the adjstability lies. I am assuming that the inside of the dropouts are slotted, but I'd like to see a photo, if you don't mind.

    Thanks a lot.

    miles

  31. #31
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    Superbad

    Does that Ridgeback require a specific hub to work with its rear end?

    Looks cool.

    Sean

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperBad
    These aren't your normal Horizontals... They are the type of drops on my new planet X ridgeback. There are 4 positions to set the chainstay length. The very inside setting is for 24" wheels and gives a chainstay length of 15.75", the second setting gives 26" wheels a chainstay length of 16", the max setting gives 16.75" chainstays. I am going to be running this 1x9. This frame is super nice and was a serious bargain frame and Fox Vanilla 125R for under $600.
    Professional Amateur. Disagree? Submit your grievances here.

  32. #32
    theHeadlessThompsonGunner
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    There's enough adjustability for 2 teeth...

    though it's not too clear in the photo. If I took the left bolt out, there'd be a bit more room for sliding it around, but it fits perfect with both bolts in place (one in a fixed hole, the other to slide through the dropout-range). I'll take a pic of it, but can't promise it will be soon. I jsut re-assembled last night after some tire-swapping and brake-tuning, and can't get to feeling too anxious about disassembling it again.
    "I've courted brain damage like some courtesan of darkness."


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  33. #33
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    The Ridgeback works with regular QR hubs. You just need to make sure you have a long enough skewer as the aluminum plates are beefy. A Salsa fits perfectly. The other option is a bolt on 10mm rear hub. I am considering doing one of these, but I am going to wait until I "need" a new rear wheel first. The beauty of a bolt on like a hadley, is when you un-bolt it the wheel just drops straight out.

  34. #34
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    Check out these crazy Dropouts from Sinister. http://www.sinisterbikes.com/dropouts.htm

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