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  1. #1
    Retro Grouch
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    We the people ... Which BB for Deore cranks (OT)

    I tried posting this on the Drivetrain Forum and didn't get a responce so I figured I try here amoungst the friendlies.

    Okay, when I last left the world of Shimano Octalink, the XT Bottom Bracket (ES-70) came in two sizes 113mm (which compared in most cases to the square taper 110mm) and 118mm (which compared to the ST 113mm). That was at least three years ago. About a week ago me and a buddy switched cranks and I ended up with a Deore M510. I checked the Shimano web site which said to use an ES-51 BB; which apparently only come in 121 and 126mm. From reading some postings it would seem this is certainly the case for the LX Octalink cranks. Well I bought a 73x121 BB and after installation it was obvious the BB spindle was too wide as the chain line was off by about 5 mm. I have since ordered an ES-71 in 113mm.

    Am I missing something here?

    BTW, anyone need an installed but never used ES-51 in 73x121mm; $15 shippped.

    1G1G, Brad
    Last edited by aka brad; 04-28-2004 at 02:31 PM.

  2. #2
    indigosky
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    I've got..

    I've got a Shimano LX crank M-572, which I understood to be the ONLY crank that would work with the ES-51 BB. The crank seeds way in on the spindle, therefore the strangely long spindles. I've got a 73x121 on my Surly 1x1 with a perfect chainline. Hope this helps.

  3. #3
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    Thanks..

    Quote Originally Posted by indigosky
    I've got a Shimano LX crank M-572, which I understood to be the ONLY crank that would work with the ES-51 BB. The crank seeds way in on the spindle, therefore the strangely long spindles. I've got a 73x121 on my Surly 1x1 with a perfect chainline. Hope this helps.

    Sounds about right. Let me know when you need a knew bottom bracket, it would seem I have one in your size

    1G1G, Brad

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by aka brad
    Sounds about right. Let me know when you need a knew bottom bracket, it would seem I have one in your size

    1G1G, Brad
    If you ever have a Shimano tech question, pm me as I have all the Shimano tech books going back years. The Surly 1x1 has some wide stays so a 121 bb might be needed to clear the stays. But...

    If you are running a 73mm shell, the correct bb is BB-ES51 73 x 118 for a 50.0mm chainline.
    If you are running a 68mm shell, the correct bb is BB-ES51 68 x 113 for a 47.5mm chainline.

    This should apply for single speeds as well since you want the same chainline.

    You can also use the lower end ES30 bb with Deore Octalink splined cranks.

  5. #5
    paintbucket
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    Quote Originally Posted by indigosky
    I've got a Shimano LX crank M-572, which I understood to be the ONLY crank that would work with the ES-51 BB. The crank seeds way in on the spindle, therefore the strangely long spindles. I've got a 73x121 on my Surly 1x1 with a perfect chainline. Hope this helps.
    I've got the same cranks and the same frame, but with a 73x118 BB. I use spacers and a freehub though. But it sounds like the 73x121 might solve my 1x7 problem. I didn't think that long a spindle was available for Octalink. How far out will it push the crank/chain ring from the stay over a 118? 1.5mm I assume, which will be tight but just might do it.
    When the going gets weird its bedtime.

  6. #6
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    New question here. Well that's clear as mud..

    Quote Originally Posted by ssmike
    If you ever have a Shimano tech question, pm me as I have all the Shimano tech books going back years. The Surly 1x1 has some wide stays so a 121 bb might be needed to clear the stays. But...

    If you are running a 73mm shell, the correct bb is BB-ES51 73 x 118 for a 50.0mm chainline.
    If you are running a 68mm shell, the correct bb is BB-ES51 68 x 113 for a 47.5mm chainline.

    This should apply for single speeds as well since you want the same chainline.

    You can also use the lower end ES30 bb with Deore Octalink splined cranks.
    What you say makes sense, but none of the web stores carried a ES-51 in 113 (or 118 for that matter) so I assumed the 121 and 126 were the only sizes available. My bad..now please don't tell me the ES-71 I bought (73x113) won't fit my Deore crank .

    1G1G, Brad

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by wooglin
    How far out will it push the crank/chain ring from the stay over a 118? 1.5mm I assume, which will be tight but just might do it.
    Should be just 1.5mm on each side.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by aka brad
    What you say makes sense, but none of the web stores carried a ES-51 in 113 (or 118 for that matter) so I assumed the 121 and 126 were the only sizes available. My bad..now please don't tell me the ES-71 I bought (73x113) won't fit my Deore crank .

    1G1G, Brad
    Ahh, part of dealing with web stores who sell only what they stock - but that's a different story. They are great if they have what you need. Doesn't make sense they wouldn't carry 113 or 118 which should be the majority of exact OEM replacement BB sizes.

    Anyway, The ES71, ES51 and ES30 all have a spline depth of 9mm. The only Octalink bb you can't use is the XTR M952/950 which have only 5mm of spline depth and are only available in 112.5mm and 116mm lengths.
    Mike

  9. #9
    paintbucket
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    While we're on the subject, can anyone tell me the difference in spacing between the middle and outside slots of a triple crank?
    When the going gets weird its bedtime.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by wooglin
    While we're on the subject, can anyone tell me the difference in spacing between the middle and outside slots of a triple crank?
    Can you be more specific? The thickess of the aluminum spider arm that separates the middle and outer ring? The distance between the center of the rings? 8- speed, 9 speed or 7 speed? Shimano, Truvativ, FSA, Bontrager, Cook Bros., Grafton, ... Lots of variables.

  11. #11
    paintbucket
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    Quote Originally Posted by ssmike
    Can you be more specific? The thickess of the aluminum spider arm that separates the middle and outer ring? The distance between the center of the rings? 8- speed, 9 speed or 7 speed? Shimano, Truvativ, FSA, Bontrager, Cook Bros., Grafton, ... Lots of variables.
    Sorry, I was checking out the 24 hours of Adreniline thread. Nice pics there....

    Shimano M-572s, center of ring to center of ring. And thanks.
    When the going gets weird its bedtime.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by wooglin
    Shimano M-572s, center of ring to center of ring. And thanks.
    Outside to middle = 7.3mm
    Middle to inner = 8.0
    This applies to all 9-speed cranks - XTR, XT, LX, Deore

  13. #13
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    Upset OK, Mr smarty pants explain this..

    Quote Originally Posted by ssmike
    Ahh, part of dealing with web stores who sell only what they stock - but that's a different story. They are great if they have what you need. Doesn't make sense they wouldn't carry 113 or 118 which should be the majority of exact OEM replacement BB sizes.

    Anyway, The ES71, ES51 and ES30 all have a spline depth of 9mm. The only Octalink bb you can't use is the XTR M952/950 which have only 5mm of spline depth and are only available in 112.5mm and 116mm lengths.
    Mike
    The Shimano North American web site shows an ES-50 BB for the Deore Octalink Crank which come in 113/118; but shows no BB for the LX gruppo. The Shimano European web site shows the ES-51 BB for both the Deore and LX cranks and also shows the ES-50 as a BB for the Deore, but shows no sizes for the ES-51 (which again I can only find in 121/126). They also show the ES-70 as a BB for the LX gruppo. Isn't the ES-51/71 supposed to replace the ES-50/70? This is why I hate Shimano.

    1G1G, Brad
    Last edited by aka brad; 04-29-2004 at 09:23 AM.

  14. #14
    indigosky
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    Umm, not what I've heard

    Quote Originally Posted by ssmike
    Anyway, The ES71, ES51 and ES30 all have a spline depth of 9mm. The only Octalink bb you can't use is the XTR M952/950 which have only 5mm of spline depth and are only available in 112.5mm and 116mm lengths.
    Mike
    I've been told from several different sources (including Shimano tech) that the ES71 is for the XT cranks only, and the ES51 is for the LX cranks only. They are NOT interchangable.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by indigosky
    I've been told from several different sources (including Shimano tech) that the ES71 is for the XT cranks only, and the ES51 is for the LX cranks only. They are NOT interchangable.
    Not sure why they told you this. The ES71/70; ES51/50; ES30 are all interchangeable. They all have the same exact spline. They might be protecting their group parts positioning. Just got off the phone with my buddy up at Shimano who knows his shi-stuff and he confirms this.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by aka brad
    The Shimano North American web site shows an ES-50 BB for the Deore Octalink Crank which come in 113/118; but shows no BB for the LX gruppo. The Shimano European web site shows the ES-51 BB for both the Deore and LX cranks and also shows the ES-50 as a BB for the Deore, but shows no sizes for the ES-51 (which again I can only find in 121/126). They also show the ES-70 as a BB for the LX gruppo. Isn't the ES-51/71 supposed to replace the ES-50/70? This is why I hate Shimano.

    1G1G, Brad
    Brad,
    I don't think they have updated their site for a while. There is quite a bit of other stuff that is old as well.

    The "1" as is ES71 and ES51 designates it as a newer version than the 50/70 series. Not sure what the exact change was, but it was probably something done in the manufacturing process to make them easier to produce - just a guess.

    The 70/71, 50/51 and 30 are available from Shimano in 113/118/121 lengths. For some reason QBP stocks the ES30 in 121 only. QBP stocks the ES51/71 in 113, 118, 121 and 126. They have a tech note that states ES50/51/70/71 will all work with XT, LX, Deore and M440 cranks w/ Octalink.

    Now, on to the 121/126 thing. In Europe, they like to run this thing called a chaincase. The chaincase encloses the crank/chain to keep it cleaner becuase of all the rain etc. The Deore crank needs a 121 when used with a chaincase. There are two versions of the Deore crank. The FC-M510 is the basic crank and is used with 113 or 118 axles. The FC-M510-K (K being for use with chaincase), uses a 121/126 axle. It should be rare that a 510-K crank showed up in the US.

    Now here's an odd thing regarding the LX crank FC-M572 (which is the 2003/4 model year LX crank - not to be confused with the M571 older splined LX crank). Shimano made the M572 crank only in one option that is chaincase compatible, therefore only the 121 or 126 bb will work with this crank.

    Hope this is clear and makes sense.

    mike

  17. #17
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    Idea! Darn, that actually made sense..

    Quote Originally Posted by ssmike
    Brad,
    I don't think they have updated their site for a while. There is quite a bit of other stuff that is old as well.

    The "1" as is ES71 and ES51 designates it as a newer version than the 50/70 series. Not sure what the exact change was, but it was probably something done in the manufacturing process to make them easier to produce - just a guess.

    The 70/71, 50/51 and 30 are available from Shimano in 113/118/121 lengths. For some reason QBP stocks the ES30 in 121 only. QBP stocks the ES51/71 in 113, 118, 121 and 126. They have a tech note that states ES50/51/70/71 will all work with XT, LX, Deore and M440 cranks w/ Octalink.

    Now, on to the 121/126 thing. In Europe, they like to run this thing called a chaincase. The chaincase encloses the crank/chain to keep it cleaner becuase of all the rain etc. The Deore crank needs a 121 when used with a chaincase. There are two versions of the Deore crank. The FC-M510 is the basic crank and is used with 113 or 118 axles. The FC-M510-K (K being for use with chaincase), uses a 121/126 axle. It should be rare that a 510-K crank showed up in the US.

    Now here's an odd thing regarding the LX crank FC-M572 (which is the 2003/4 model year LX crank - not to be confused with the M571 older splined LX crank). Shimano made the M572 crank only in one option that is chaincase compatible, therefore only the 121 or 126 bb will work with this crank.

    Hope this is clear and makes sense.

    mike
    Thanks!!

    Brad

  18. #18
    indigosky
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    Kung-fu

    Quote Originally Posted by ssmike

    Hope this is clear and makes sense.

    mike
    Mike:

    Your kung-fu is strong, I bow to you.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by indigosky
    Mike:

    Your kung-fu is strong, I bow to you.
    ahh so, grasshopper.

  20. #20
    paintbucket
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    Quote Originally Posted by ssmike
    Outside to middle = 7.3mm
    Middle to inner = 8.0
    This applies to all 9-speed cranks - XTR, XT, LX, Deore
    Thanks! Now all I have to do is some math and my world will (hopefully) be a better place.
    When the going gets weird its bedtime.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by wooglin
    Thanks! Now all I have to do is some math and my world will (hopefully) be a better place.
    What math? Shimano has charts showing exact chainring position in relation to the center-line of the frame. Let me know what you need and I might be able to post a scan/photo of the page you need.

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