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  1. #1
    SSOD
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    853 frames or 4130?

    Posted this in the Frame building forum but also any opinions from you guys would be appreciated.

    Looking at getting a new ss frame and have been looking a lot at steel. Have done some research on both and am sorta familiar with the different processes but was more curious what you guys though about it as far as the characteristics of each, stiffness/ comfort/ reliability/ durability/ etc. For comparison the two frames I am looking at are the Niner SIR and Vassago Jabberwocky. Thanks

  2. #2
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    Personally, I am riding a full Renolds 520 (chromoly). The down side to chromo is that it is heavier but a little stiffer. The beauty of 853 is that it is close to the strength to weight rations of Ti.

    From what I have read and seen on a Niner Sir video, they only use 853 for the main triangle and then use Chromoly for the seat and chain stays. This is because they want the rear end stronger/stiffer due to the forces being put on it from the drive train. Don't know how the Jabber is built though.

    Knowing that I am riding a full Chromo (26er mind you), I can say I am happy with it. But having one that is 853 is still nicer in my book. You will save some weight and the frame may be a little more comfy. Also the Niner while built overseas, is still hand built with custom drawn tubing from Renolds. All tubes are custom drawn for their size application which is a nice quality for sure.

  3. #3
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    some "853" frames use 853 in the main tubes and 725 tubes in the chain/seatstays.
    maybe downspec to 531 or 520 in the back?
    can't see why they'd cheap out all the way down to regular 4130 if they're using 853 in the main tubes, but I guess they might.

    it's all chromoly, just depends on what you put in the secret sauce
    853 is just a version of chromoly that hardens when heated. so
    the welded areas are strengthened by welding, not weakened. knowing the welded joints will be stronger due to the material means they can use thinner tubes, which are generally lighter and more compliant.

    True Temper OX platinum does the same thing.
    Pretty sure dedacciai and columbus both offer some version of it as well.
    If steel is real then aluminium is supercallafragiliniun!

  4. #4
    CB2
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    The design and geometry have more to do with how the bike will ride than the sticker on the seat-tube. I've ridden name brand tubing that has done nothing for me and generic that has knocked my socks off (and vice-versa).

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1SPD
    Personally, I am riding a full Renolds 520 (chromoly). The down side to chromo is that it is heavier but a little stiffer. The beauty of 853 is that it is close to the strength to weight rations of Ti.

    From what I have read and seen on a Niner Sir video, they only use 853 for the main triangle and then use Chromoly for the seat and chain stays. This is because they want the rear end stronger/stiffer due to the forces being put on it from the drive train. Don't know how the Jabber is built though.

    Knowing that I am riding a full Chromo (26er mind you), I can say I am happy with it. But having one that is 853 is still nicer in my book. You will save some weight and the frame may be a little more comfy. Also the Niner while built overseas, is still hand built with custom drawn tubing from Renolds. All tubes are custom drawn for their size application which is a nice quality for sure.
    Vassago says the Jabber is also made from custom drawn tubes for their size and application, but made from 4130 chromoly. I would not be so concerned by the type of steel but the geometry and how the bike rides. Saying that the Jabber is more old style than the SIR 9, which has more of a bling look and is about a pound lighter because of the 853 tubes. Your also going to pay $350 more for the Niner frame, but that does not mean it is a better ride. These are the type of decisions that drive cyclists nuts.
    Last edited by aka brad; 09-23-2010 at 11:48 PM.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by byknuts
    some "853" frames use 853 in the main tubes and 725 tubes in the chain/seatstays.
    maybe downspec to 531 or 520 in the back?
    can't see why they'd cheap out all the way down to regular 4130 if they're using 853 in the main tubes, but I guess they might.

    it's all chromoly, just depends on what you put in the secret sauce
    853 is just a version of chromoly that hardens when heated. so
    the welded areas are strengthened by welding, not weakened. knowing the welded joints will be stronger due to the material means they can use thinner tubes, which are generally lighter and more compliant.

    True Temper OX platinum does the same thing.
    Pretty sure dedacciai and columbus both offer some version of it as well..
    Actually I find the opposite. The older Chromoly had to be made with thicker tubes and tended to be more compliant with the bikes I have ridden. Since most steel weighs pretty much the same, weight is reduced by using steel tubes that can be made with thinner walls and still retain strength . This thinning process usually results in a stiffer frame. I have an old Peugeot made with 531steel and a 10 year old 853 Schwinn Peloton which is substantially lighter and stiffer than the Peugeot. But I will agree that builders can often use different steels and create a frame as compliant or stiff as desired. Paul at Rocklobster made my singlespeed out of Tange steel and it has an amazing ride..

    Also while I'm sure that fact that 853 doesn't have to be heat treated after welding may make for stronger welds, I would not think that that is what allows for thinner tubes. One of the primary differences between older and newer steels is tensile strength. The greater the strength, the less material is needed and the thinner the walls can be made. 520 Chromo has a tensile strength of about 800 MPa, while 853 has is over 1300 MPa. However, how this effects to ride quality has more to do with tube selection, design and construction.
    Just one more rep and I get the toaster!

  7. #7
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    Go to Vassago's website and check out the info on their "R-Tech" tubing. It's similar to the other name-brand tubing mentioned.

  8. #8
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    Good job!

    Quote Originally Posted by CB2
    The design and geometry have more to do with how the bike will ride than the sticker on the seat-tube. I've ridden name brand tubing that has done nothing for me and generic that has knocked my socks off (and vice-versa).
    This
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  9. #9
    Ovaries on the Outside
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    Quote Originally Posted by byknuts
    some "853" frames use 853 in the main tubes and 725 tubes in the chain/seatstays.
    maybe downspec to 531 or 520 in the back?
    can't see why they'd cheap out all the way down to regular 4130 if they're using 853 in the main tubes, but I guess they might.
    I think Reynolds 531 has been shelved except for special purposes and is replaced by 631. I think.

    And steel quality makes a difference, but probably not as much as the quality of welds, bike design and personal geometry preferences.

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