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Element 29: XCO bike?

4K views 45 replies 10 participants last post by  rockyuphill 
#1 ·
what do you guys think of the element 29 carbon frame for a race bike? I don't care about components or wheels or anything like this, what im focussed on is the bike's geometry and suspension design. Is it made for xc-racing, olympic style?

I've been racing on a Vertex for 2 years now, elite level, and im pissed of getting my ass bounced everywhere while some FS rider are remaining sat down and keep pedaling on flat bumpy sections.
 
#13 ·
I'm finishing my second season of XCO and XCM on an Element RSL 29er. It's been a GREAT bike for both purposes.
The dual-remote for the suspension is brilliant for a race bike.
My previous FS XC bikes were minilink designs (maestro and VPP). I prefer the Element for both racing and technical trail riding. It's lighter, laterally stiff, has variable compression damping that is actually meaningful, and doesn't have annoying pedal feedback when I'm climbing chunky terrain.
My only caveat is that a high-miles rider needs to stay on top of pivot maintenance. All bikes need maintenance, of course, but it's especially important with the ABC bushings because wearing through them can cause frame or swingarm issues.
 
#45 ·
I'm finishing my second season of XCO and XCM on an Element RSL 29er. It's been a GREAT bike for both purposes.
The dual-remote for the suspension is brilliant for a race bike.
My previous FS XC bikes were minilink designs (maestro and VPP). I prefer the Element for both racing and technical trail riding. It's lighter, laterally stiff, has variable compression damping that is actually meaningful, and doesn't have annoying pedal
feedback when I'm climbing chunky terrain.
My only caveat is that a high-miles rider needs to stay on top of pivot maintenance. All bikes need maintenance, of course, but it's especially important with the ABC bushings because wearing through them can cause frame or swingarm issues.
can you please describe more the pivot maintenence. I have a superfly fs and got play in the main pivot after only 2 weeks of riding and thinking to get another frame. How good is the Element in that perspective? thanks
 
#39 ·
I am just back from a ride on my vertex, boy it rocks! I thought the difference would be much more dramatic and I thought I would have been much more pissed at the rough ride the HT gives.

The differences are not big enough for a change, for me. I will therefore ride a 2015 vertex with a fox fork, 1x10 XTR setup with light stuff. The bike should be very light.

Thanks again to you guys for the comments on the element
 
#2 ·
That's absolutely what the Element RSL is targeted at, an XCO race bike. If you're on a Vertex 29 RSL and you hopped on an Element RSL of the same size, you'd feel right at home. The Vertex RSL frame is around 1250gms and the Element RSL frame is around 2200gms (IIRC) so there is about 2 pounds difference in bike weight, but the ability to pedal over rough stuff and have better climbing traction will make up for that.

Element | Rocky Mountain Bicycles
 
#7 ·
I have recently got myself a Element 970 RSL and so far I think it makes for a very good race bike. The geometry is a good compromise between fast steering and DH stability.
The smoothlink system seems to work great so far, very efficient but always working. One thing I never liked about the Epic was the on/off feeling when the shock opens and closes.
What I would say is that the top tubes are slightly shorter than some of the competition so I went up a size from what I normally ride to get the longer stretch - Large to XL.
With that size I can run a slightly shorter stem as well but still have a good stretch.
I have upgraded mine to XTR, EC90 wheels and a few other bits. Currently weighs 22.8lbs so very happy with that.
 
#9 ·
Just a couple of notes about making the switch between a Vertex and an Element.

Don't get hung up with looking down and seeing the shock move a bit while you're pedaling, it does happen because the bike is sagged into the travel by 25% from your weight and not sitting at the top of travel, but that's one of the biggest reasons it's an advantage while pedaling on rough surfaces. When you're mashing on steep climbs, the rear suspension will move a bit and that acts like a low pass filter, taking out the short spikes in pedal effort that can break the rear wheel loose going up over over slippery roots and rocks. And the Smoothlink design like the ETSX design before it, really does drive the rear wheel down into the dirt with pedal effort. That's still a difference that I marvel at between my 26" Vertex RSL and my 26" Element RSL in climbing, there's soooooooo much more traction.

The other thing that will take some adjustment is the change in geometry when cornering hard enough to compress the rear suspension, as that does slacken the head angle under cornering load. When I switch back and forth between my Vertex and Element, on the Vertex I turn in too soon on the corner because I'm preadjusting for rear suspension compression that never happens, then on the Element I run wide because the head angle is slacker than the Vertex in the middle of the corner. It only takes 20-30 minutes to get used to, but if you're only getting a single test ride, you may spend most of it wondering why you're not feeling the precise handling of the Vertex,
 
#10 ·
I will test ride it for a whole week.

I am 177cm. Regarding sizing, I thought about going for a medium. I use a 100mm stem on my vertex, -17d. I will need a setback post for the element and perhaps bump up the stem length to 110-120mm... What do you guys think about this?
 
#11 ·
The HTT on the Vertex is 592mm/615mm for a M/L where the Element has an HTT of 582mm/605mm for a M/L, so it's 10mm shorter already. With a FS bike it helps to be more in the middle of the bike and not have too much weight shifted onto the back wheel to keep the suspension setup fairly balanced and not have to run the rear shock at a higher pressure to manage sag. It also helps moderate changes in braking attitude. If you run the fork a bit softer for sag because you have your weight further back, it will dive harder under braking or when riding stepdowns that put a lot of weight onto the fork.

If you're on a Large Vertex, then a Large Element will likely feel right at home. If you're on a Medium Vertex, then the Medium Element will likely feel familiar.
 
#15 ·
Tried the bike today for only a quick 60min ride, basic position tweak and no sag adjustment. I need to try with a proper position as I was 6-7cm to short for the saddle to bar reach. I thought the full suspension would make a bigger difference over medium sized roots. The only advantages i saw were over very small roots and in humps and bumps where you can stay seated. Not much faster on the dh... of course more testing is needed
 
#16 ·
I don't consider myself a racer...much less a racer of your caliber. I do like 24 & 8 hour races though. I decided to give a 29er HT a try a few years ago. It was light and fast over smooth stuff, but I discovered the same thing as the OP during a 24 hour solo race in "real" MTB terrain. I would have to stand up and coast through rough sections while other guys on FS bikes powered right by me (while I lost precious momentum). Not only that, but my back took a beating for the first 12 hours. In the middle of the night, I switched over to my FS Giant Anthem X 26er and had a much better time. I sold the HT a few month later and bought a Element 950. Great choice!
 
#17 ·
Some further riding today. I may have a few questions for you FS riders

what sort of pressure am I looking to use in the rear shock? I am 68kg.

I have tried the bike with my 100mm stem and setback seatpost replicating my measures from my vertex but something doesnt feel right. Should I use a zero setback post and a longer stem?
 
#18 ·
Starting point for rear shock pressure would be around 150 psi for that weight, and then adjust up or down to get the sag where you want it.

The HTT is 10mm shorter on the Element so you likely don't need a shorter cockpit than the Vertex. Part of what you're feeling is the rear sag and the slacker head angle once you're sitting on the bike' You also end up with a slacker seat tube angle when the bike is sagged. You can likely slide the seat forward 5mm or so and feel more over the BB spindle.
 
#19 ·
thanks Rocky

definitly need more testing.

I did not thhought it would compress that much under pedaling load. I also thought the rear suspension would have filtered the bumps a bit better so I could remain seated more. Maybe I went out too lazy and remained seated too much, I need to ''work'' the bike more despite having a rear suspension.
 
#21 ·
I run my the Fox CTD shock in my RSL Element at close to body weight (~170lb in my case; i'm 6'2"), +/- 10psi depending on the course.

I also use the remote CTD lever a lot. 'D' is for all chop and seriously rooty terrain, whether up or down.

My shock was rebuilt and recharged by Suspension Experts, FYI. It was good stock (I raced it that way for a year) but the bike became even better after the rebuild. More supple in D and firmer in C.
 
#22 ·
Thanks guys, really appreciate the feedback as I am even more questionning my next bike choice for next year after today's ride.

I played with the shock rebound settting today and noticed a lot less pedal bob when turning the red knob clockwise (I think).

how does the rebound setting influences the shock performance? Will it go all the way through the same travel when the rebound is set tight versus soft?
 
#23 ·
If you dial in too much rebound damping the shock will basically stack up, as it won't rebound before the next hit compresses it again, so it will slowly compress to near maximum travel on stutter bumps or really rough terrain. The Rebound damping should just be set so the rear wheel won't bounce off the ground when the suspension is compressed fully then let go. That's typically starting around 3 clicks from no rebound damping (fast rebound).

Remember that with the shock in sag from your weight, the suspension will move a bit while pedaling as your weight is moving up and down unless you're a very round pedaler. But that sag is what allows the rear wheel to move down further to meet the ground on rough stuff, or drive the rear wheel down into the ground from pedal pressure.
 
#25 ·
For race conditions where you'll be pinning it at times, you will likely find 25% sag is about what you want, and for general riding, 30% to get a bit more small bump compliance. With the very short shock on the Element, that's a surprisingly small amount of shock shaft travel. With a 6" x 1.25" shock, that's about 5/16" or 8mm of shaft travel for 25% and 3/8" or 10mm for 30% sag.
 
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