Mountain Bike Reviews Forum banner

CCDB AIR, AKA Cane Creek Double Barrel air. So close.......

22K views 34 replies 9 participants last post by  zangg 
#1 ·
Pulled my CCDB air apart yesterday. This is on a 2014 S-Works Enduro 29 with about 15 hours on the shock. Very new.

The main reason I am in the shock, is that I started loosing air pressure on my last 2 rides. Dunk tank showed no air bubbles, so I was curious even more.

Initial impression of the air can assembly regarding machining, general design, O-ring sizing, etc, was very good. Easy to work on solid design.

Initial impression of the damper assembly looked great too, until I saw the main damper shaft, with some pretty decent galling. Popped open the assembly, and initial inspection showed that the shaft was actually contacting the seal head. In other words, as the shock was cycled, the slight side load force on the shaft, was enough force to push through the main shaft seals guide structure, and grind anodized aluminum(seal head) on anodized aluminum(damper shaft). In the attached photo you, can see the dullness in the shaft where it was galling.

I like the way the shock functions, and the ease of tuning(reduced some base high speed compression on the valve stack while I was in the shock), but this is just going to happen again, if no changes are made.

I clearanced the seal head a little where the contact was happening, and buffed out the shaft as good as I could. No pressure loss sitting over last night, but I feel I should start looking at alternatives. We'll see how it does on tomorrows ride.

If Cane Creek wants to cut down on come backs and keep up a good rep, they really need to re-design some things. The damper shaft is a TINY diameter. I think all would be fine if the damper shaft were steel(might add 20 grams TOPS to the shock weight), and about .015" were taken out of the diameter of the seal head where the shaft exits. Also, there is VERY little overlap distance(piston wear band to shaft guide bearing), so any side load really binds the assembly up. That distance should be increased too, and it seems there is PLENTY of room inside the seal-head to do so.

I called Cane Creek a bit ago, and they did not really seem to care much. I asked if I could just buy some shaft seals and main shaft for the damper assembly, as mine are surely damaged, and they said were not set up for that. Said I should just send it in. If I do that I guess that will buy me another 10-15 hours of ride time?

Oh well..... Decisions decisions.....
 

Attachments

See less See more
2
#4 ·
Thing is, I don't see anything defective. If they are just going to put the same replacement parts back in, I don't see the point? I think I am going to machine my own 17-4 stainless shaft and call it good. It's a very simple shaft.

If I called and they said that they made some changes to the seal head, I'm game...
 
#3 ·
Does the air-can and spring not help to reduce side-loading?

In any case, I had a similar situation with a romic shock, they explained it as "piston seal drag", it eventually broke the entire shock into 3 parts, as the damper shaft pulled out of the shock and the two halves collapsed on each other.
 
#5 ·
My point is this: If everyone had this problem, no one would have a Double Barrel Air and Cane Creek would be back to only making headsets and thudbusters.

I cannot tell you what is wrong with your shock, but I've had mine a lot longer than that and never had any issues. When I was doing my research on shocks, this was not a common problem. This leads me to believe that something is wrong with your shock and either cane creek will fix yours or replace it under warranty. As they are a boutique manufacturer, I highly doubt they will leave you out to dry.
 
#6 ·
Cane Creek recommends service centers for repair work.
They shy away from doing their own repairs.
You're stuck with Cane Creeks stock parts.
Seems you either get a solid CCDBA or a bunk one. No middle ground.
If you've got a good one, the performance and adjustability are awesome.
If you've got one that's a maintenance nightmare you'll go straight back to Fox or Rock Shox or start doing your own mods.
If you're forced to do your own repairs and mods to get the performance you desire, you'll wonder what all the hype is about.
Add in the odd sized mounting hardware, and the benefits may not outweigh the negatives for you.
I've had a few CCDBAs and I still ride one. However, I find that I get can now get similar or better performance from a custom tuned Fox or Rock Shox product with far less maintenance requirements.
 
#8 ·
Pretty much how I feel about it, at this point.

I've been tuning and designing my own off-road shock internals for years(for my business), and tuning my own bike shocks, because I can. This shock has sweet potential, but I don't like feeling like this, "cream of the crop" shock, is so unreliable.

I had a few buddies that work at shops say, "better get a spare shock", before getting this bike, and now I know why, 10 rides later. I was hoping they were wrong.
 
#9 ·
Well I'm not sure what that is, but if it's Metallica, there's your problem right there!


That up-and-down movement is crazy though. I'd email that to CC and demand a response. That's making me have second thoughts about a CCDB Air for my Enduro, although I already have first-thoughts against it due to the Outerbike and Knolly threads. I just tried to do that with my fox CTD and I can't replicate anything like that.
 
#11 ·
What's cool about the CCDBA is the adjustability.
It will help you learn and dial in the optimal suspension tune and settings for your bike and preferred riding style.
No other stock shock has as much adjustability.
You just can't get the range of adjustment on a stock shock as you'll find on a CCDBA.
However, once you know the optimal settings for your bike, you can easily dial in many other high end shocks.
Vivid Airs and Float CTDs don't have as much stock adjustability as a CCDBA, but once you know what you want in the way of a tune and depending on the bike, you can likely meet or beat CCDBA with a custom tune either of those shocks.
I don't think the CCDBA is an amazing shock. It's just got the superior adjustability that can be tuned to a more precise degree on the bike than the stock options from other manufacturers.
That's what gets people so psyched-the range of tuning compared to other stock shocks.
The unique CCDBA hardware is lame if you have a bike that goes through DUs quickly.
It would be better if Cane Creek would just standardize mounting hardware like Rock Shox and Fox.
Reliability is no better on a CCDBA than other premium shocks. My experience is that it is actually a notch below other premium options.
Good shock, but it certainly has downsides.
 
#12 ·
The external adjustability is why the CCDBA is worth saving , sure most of the other shocks can be made to work ( Lots a disassembles and re-valves and testing ) but it is very time consuming and most guys and all the shops can not do it , You have to do it yourself if you really want it right .

So yes, this shock would be worth doing a redesign on in order to get it bullet proof so it does not deflect in that linkage on the Enduro. :eekster:
 
#13 ·
On two different bikes, I have found 2014 Vivid Air performance and reliability to be superior to CCDBA.
Vivid Air is probably the easiest high end shock to adjust if you've got the factory tune correct for compression and rebound.
The new Vivid Air beats the CCDBA for most applications and durability in my experience. You'll also have no deflection problems anywhere in the stroke.
CCDB and CCDBA were ahead of the curve, but other shocks are catching up and surpassing them.
You're paying for adjustability with CCDBA, not necessarily durability.
Resale market is good, and if the CCDBA is not working for you there are easier to tune,more reliable, and cheaper to maintain options out there.
 
#14 ·
Here is my opinion as an authorized Cane Creek service center:

That lateral play does not seem right, I would contact Cane Creek about it.

They recommend sending it in for a good reason: getting a proper bleed on those shocks is important and it's not a very easy job, plus they will want to inspect the components. Send it, they will take care of you.
 
#16 ·
plus they will want to inspect the components. Send it, they will take care of you.
I'm sure they will take care of me, but I like messing with this stuff myself sometimes, too. They did not seem too anxious to get it back when I called in today. Lots of long pauses on the other end of the line.

With no top out spacers, the seal head bushing literally butting up against the stop washer, and an 8mm shaft, there is not enough offset in this shock, in my opinion.

Didn't I hear of the regular coil shocks snapping shafts or something?
 
#15 ·
Thanks all! I'm going to pop by my local shop and see if that deflection is normal. They just got a few more of these bikes in. Everything with assembly seemed normal. Seals nice and tight all seemed great.

On the bleed..... I made my own vacuum bleeder. Was super easy.

Did I ever mention why I was loosing pressure? The damper shaft seal was leaking from the galled shaft, bleeding the 150psi air can charge into the 70psi damper circuit.
 
#18 ·
When I spoke to Cane Creek, they did hint to the fact they were having problems "with that bike", referring to my Enduro, which uses a similar yoke to the Demo. Thing is, there is no play or slop, and the rear yoke bearings are VERY free of drag. I could see if there was a rear bearing issue or something, but there is not a drag issue on my bike anyway.

I read somewhere the factory damper pressure was 70-100psi, though I put 120psi back in mine.
 
#21 ·
Interesting reads thank you.

Funny the comments on the non-existent, "plushness", of the CCDB air. I feel the same way. I have some Redline "Likewater" fluid I'll be swapping into my shock here in about 30min. At 200lbs geared up, I should not have my High speed knob all the way out, and only 3 clicks in on low speed. I also, as mentioned, I took out some high speed from the main shim stack. My intent will be that the lighter fluid can give some plushness, and let me actually use the high speed knob.

My speculation seems to be pretty much on. Scored shaft, then they fail again in short time, don't know how to fix it, etc. The fix seems pretty easy to me. Put a little more offset built into the shock, a steel shaft since it's such a small diameter, and extend the guide length in the seal head a bit. Oh well...
 
#26 ·
Interesting reads thank you.

Funny the comments on the non-existent, "plushness", of the CCDB air. I feel the same way. I have some Redline "Likewater" fluid I'll be swapping into my shock here in about 30min. At 200lbs geared up, I should not have my High speed knob all the way out, and only 3 clicks in on low speed. I also, as mentioned, I took out some high speed from the main shim stack. My intent will be that the lighter fluid can give some plushness, and let me actually use the high speed knob.

My speculation seems to be pretty much on. Scored shaft, then they fail again in short time, don't know how to fix it, etc. The fix seems pretty easy to me. Put a little more offset built into the shock, a steel shaft since it's such a small diameter, and extend the guide length in the seal head a bit. Oh well...
Yes the CC shock has had its share of problems , I have had to make parts to correctly make them live.
You are going in the right direction by doing your own work and making the shock better , CC will just use the same parts and the shock will fail in short order .

A correctly built shaft with more support it the fix , and you can do alittle tuning along the way . :cool:
 
#24 ·
Naaaaaaa all side to side deflection. If you click HD and full screen you can see the shifting really clearly.

I plan to swing by and go push on some other CCDB air shocks today. I suspect I will feel the same thing, as everything in my shock seemed the correct spec. I'm guessing it's a design aspect at this point, but that is just speculation as of right now. How many people actually try that with their shock? Not something you would just stumble on.
 
#27 ·
The like water has also given me back a couple clicks of HSC (same problem and weight).. that and little bigger space between check plate

Not sure rwc needles will fit the DBA size though.. They definitely take the side/side stress off the seal head. Zero problems in my RC4
 
#28 ·
Also the HL.. drive side needs more lovin to keep the wheel as tight/smooth and as on plane to the shock as possible. Hammering uphill chunk can really beat on DS HL. Though I have not seen the Enduro pivot up close, part of the problem could start there
 
#29 ·
Wow the Likewater really woke the shock up, but not TOO much.

Settings now...

- Still all the way out on the LS reb, and one turn out on the HS reb, vs all the way out on both. I like a poppy bike for most terrain.

- LS and HS compression are both now in the middle range on adjustment, instead of basically all the way out.

Square edge blow off seems more compliant now, along with a slightly more "buttery" feeling to the shock, when I need it. I'll know more after I get back from a 3 hour ride right now. Fun to play with!
 
#30 ·
I pushed on a few shocks the other day at the local Specialized shop, and I can get them to rock/deflect very similar to mine. Maybe I am just pushing harder who knows.

My shock worked just fine on a 3+ hour ride after re-assembly, after buffing the shaft and clearancing the seal head. I'll keep putting hours on it till it starts acting funny again, or I hit about the 20 hour mark, and pull apart to inspect regardless.

The Redline Likewater REALLY worked well. I'm in on the HS compression now and in more on the HS rebound too.
 
#31 ·
Maybe that amount of deflection exists on some stroke lengths/eye to eye lengths and not others?

Mine definitely does not move like that and I really tried to deflect it. Mine is an 8.5" x 2.5" for reference.

Edited to add : cant be due to different shock lengths, from looking at the specialized enduro specs, its the same length as mine.
 
#33 ·
I have to say, one of my favorite things about it, MY HANDS COME CLEAN EASY haha!!!

I reduced the diameter of the fulcrum shim on the main stack, and that combined with the lighter oil, I finally got this shock to give that "flat tire" blow-off feel on square edge high-speed hits.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top