No front derailleur for the Driver 8 ?!?

[Dusty Bottoms]

Wow, anyone waiting for a vp-free must be horribly disappointed.

(insert hammershit replies here)

[rogue]

Despite was SC says and from looking at the pics (seems to be some space between the coil and upper chainguide roller) I'm not saying it will be easy, but I think maybe an E-type Front Derailleur with some custom cable routeing along the down tube may be possible.
I would rather not go for the Hammerschit option as I hear its $$.

[Zen_Turtle]

Really, who cares?
I'm seriously considering 1x9 on my Nomad
A driver 8 1x9 makes perfect sense to me..

[eleven-yo]

meeeow.
I was "horribly disappointed" to see you post the same complaint in the other Driver8 thread, and then have to start a whole new thread to gripe it all over again in case we didn't see it there.
Maybe its time to see the upside: gaining a little leg strength.

I found this on the SCB website, looks like somebody else might feel the same way:

"Can I use a front derailleur?"

No. Unfortunately the suspension just clutters the front derailleur area too much to really fit anything in there. This suspension configuration allows us to get the best performance possible- we didn't think compromising the suspension to allow for a derailleur was worth it. Just put the seat up and tough it out!

[Dusty Bottoms]

Originally Posted by eleven-yo

meeeow.
I was "horribly disappointed" to see you post the same complaint in the other Driver8 thread, and then have to start a whole new thread to gripe it all over again in case we didn't see it there.
Maybe its time to see the upside: gaining a little leg strength.

I found this on the SCB website, looks like somebody else might feel the same way:

"Can I use a front derailleur?"

No. Unfortunately the suspension just clutters the front derailleur area too much to really fit anything in there. This suspension configuration allows us to get the best performance possible- we didn't think compromising the suspension to allow for a derailleur was worth it. Just put the seat up and tough it out!

Whoa brah, don't get all uppity with me, I'm simply looking for answers. I've owned MANY different SC bikes and am always interested to see what their next move is. This move away from a front mech is a curious one, especially if they continue to try to market this as an "all arounder". Lucky for SC, "freeride" bikes are virtually exctinct so there won't be much competition for this frame.

We'll have to see if this marketing jedi mind trick works: "you don't notice there's no front derailleur, and you don't notice the interrupted seattube, we promise this is still an all arounder".

I like the lines of the frame, I like the pretty photogs, the name sucks but oh well.

Yes, leg strength, I'll have to look into that.

[Banshee Rider]

Since when are 8" bikes all-rounders? *News flash* 8" bikes "all-purpose" bikes are living abortions. They don't climb good, front derailleur or not, it has everything to do with their layout.

Anyone who rides legit downhill knows that you can't comprimise the integrity of your build for the sake of uphill effiency. Its a game that can't be won, I've played it. If your trails are so demanding that they require an 8" bike with downhill geometry, then your day is best spent hiking for runs on a bike built for the job, rather than grunting dual ply tires and downhill rims uphill with a slack headangle and backpack full or gear.

SC is targeting the weekend warrior downhiller who wants a durable gravity-fed bike, without the all-race feel of their flagship V10. I don't think they are inviting people to pedal this bike uphill, as they shouldn't, because it'll still suck as bad as the VP-Free did.

Now if you want to talk about ugly, with too high of a price tag for the target customer, I'll gladly take sides on that one

[juice]

Originally Posted by Banshee Rider

If your trails are so demanding that they require an 8" bike with downhill geometry, then your day is best spent hiking for runs on a bike built for the job, rather than grunting dual ply tires and downhill rims uphill with a slack headangle and backpack full or gear.

There's a lot of stuff out there that's fun on an 8" bike that requires a granny if you're not pushing. Granted, you can ride anything on a hardtail if you really want to, but 8" of squish is fun.

I won't be replacing my VP-Free with this bike because I have long legs and want to run a front derailleur. I will only ever have one bike for Whistler/freeride/dh, so it needs to have a granny. Yes, I know, guys who pedal up and then rip down on narsty trails are a dying breed.

Hopefully the Transition's next round of freeride bikes fit the bill - and come out before my 4 year old VP-Free finally breaks. Those guys get it.

[Banshee Rider]

I don't think they are dying breed by definition, I just think the emergence of 6" bikes with relaxed geometry has caused the breed to change direction. At the end of the day, a mid-travel bike thats low and slack like the Intense Slopestyle or Giant Reign X will still rip on descents, but they will build lighter by default and climb to the top much more effiently.

That's not to say trails don't exist that are too hairy for a 6" bike to be fun on, I know they are out there. However, I think alot of people underestimate the affect of geometry, which can really provide the same handling of the driver 8, with only a small loss in overall travel which will pass less noticed. What your buying isn't necessarily the travel (within reason), what your buying is the handling capability when trails get nasty. I do think this bike was executed poorly for a specific group of riders who wanted this bike, but was executely perfectly for the other group. What it boils down to is a niche within a niche. I think this bike will better sell to the gravity fed niche who for some odd reason are convinced the V10 is "too much bike," as opposed to the all-day backcountry destroyer, which I summarized my thoughts on in the first sentence of this post. There seem to be more of one and less of the other at this point in time. It's all about the $ these days.

Just my 2 cents.

[Pete-G]

Originally Posted by Banshee Rider

I don't think they are dying breed by definition, I just think the emergence of 6" bikes with relaxed geometry has caused the breed to change direction. At the end of the day, a mid-travel bike thats low and slack like the Intense Slopestyle or Giant Reign X will still rip on descents, but they will build lighter by default and climb to the top much more effiently.

That's not to say trails don't exist that are too hairy for a 6" bike to be fun on, I know they are out there. However, I think alot of people underestimate the affect of geometry, which can really provide the same handling of the driver 8, with only a small loss in overall travel which will pass less noticed. What your buying isn't necessarily the travel (within reason), what your buying is the handling capability when trails get nasty. I do think this bike was executed poorly for a specific group of riders who wanted this bike, but was executely perfectly for the other group. What it boils down to is a niche within a niche. I think this bike will better sell to the gravity fed niche who for some odd reason are convinced the V10 is "too much bike," as opposed to the all-day backcountry destroyer, which I summarized my thoughts on in the first sentence of this post. There seem to be more of one and less of the other at this point in time. It's all about the $ these days.

Just my 2 cents.

I think you pretty much nailed it there. I'm one of the "V10 is too much" group. I know you can argue that the V10 won the World Cup this year, but I'd also argue an 8" bike won the World Champs. For most of the riding here in the UK a V10 is overkill unless your at somewhere like Fort William on a regular basis.
Its the same thinking that for me says "why the hell would you want to pedal an 8" bike uphill with a front mech?". If thats really what people want I still think a Spesh SX, Intense SS or one of the other 6"+ hardcore bikes would fit the bill just as well, if not better. Again its just my 2 cents and I think provided the geo matches up, then a Driver could be an ideal UK/Euro dh bike.

[honourablegeorge]

I dunno - SC's press release is all about versatility, and there's a lot of us without access to chairlifts on a regualr basis. I don't mind the odd push up, but I'd rather be in a granny ring pedallign up a fireroad than walking up it.

[dascro]

Originally Posted by Banshee Rider

Since when are 8" bikes all-rounders? *News flash* 8" bikes "all-purpose" bikes are living abortions. They don't climb good, front derailleur or not, it has everything to do with their layout.

Anyone who rides legit downhill knows that you can't comprimise the integrity of your build for the sake of uphill effiency. Its a game that can't be won, I've played it. If your trails are so demanding that they require an 8" bike with downhill geometry, then your day is best spent hiking for runs on a bike built for the job, rather than grunting dual ply tires and downhill rims uphill with a slack headangle and backpack full or gear.

SC is targeting the weekend warrior downhiller who wants a durable gravity-fed bike, without the all-race feel of their flagship V10. I don't think they are inviting people to pedal this bike uphill, as they shouldn't, because it'll still suck as bad as the VP-Free did.

Now if you want to talk about ugly, with too high of a price tag for the target customer, I'll gladly take sides on that one

I agree with most of what you are saying.

I think your 100% with missing the mark on pricing for the target customer.

But I have to ask myself why this bike? I am the weekend warrior downhiller and I just can't see myself choosing this frame especially at this price. I go to the resort nearly every weekend during the 4,5 month riding season. But still thats less than the 3 or 4 weekday rides on my xc/am bike all year long so price is somewhat a consideration. At the price point it is listed at why wouldn't one just buy the V10? Both have DH racer geometry meaning that they are targeted at those looking to blast DH rather than maybe a bullit where the geometry is more FR. So I see it break down like this

1. Someone who is serious about maximum DH speed will go for the V10. At the price of the Driver8, it makes no sense to save a few 100.

2. Someone more interested in having fun at the DH resort and fooling around with less of a focus on peak DH speed will go for the Nomad, or bullit. Lower price, increased versatility. Seems like a no brainer here.

Am I missing something here or is SC missing something here. As the bike stands today? Who is likely to buy it?

I don't mean to offend anyone I'm just curious as what niche this bike is filling in the lineup.

[BiGWaVeDave]

I was really dissapointed with this bike. I was waiting a long time to see what was a replacement for the vp free and now I can say I'm glad because I can save some money buying a used free versus the driver 8.

Santa cruz dropped the ball AGAIN. First the bullit.2 which I'm riding the 07 version and love it for the most part, BUT a 150mm rear end with a 73mm shell is a huge mistake that should never have happened.

Now they've taken the old but sweet desing of the vp free and turned it into a quasi v-10. I believe the vp free was SUPPOSED to be a big hit bike with derailleur capabilities for those of us who like to pedal to the top and still want the suppleness and big hit capabilities of a DH bike. If you want a 5/6" travel setup then just get a bullit, or bottlerocket or slopestyle bike, and I'm sure Hammerschmit is still out of most peoples financial real or at least will be for awhile.

Besides all that now they've taken the sleek low slung desing of the old vp free which was much more similar in looks to an Intense 6.6 or socom, and turned it into some college design project/v-10 swoopy piece of crap. Roskopp needs to get over his love of hot rods and take a look at the cleaner designs that people really love like the bottlerocket/intense ss/socom, sweet and clean... but that's just my .02

Thanks SC you just saved me some money.

[persing]

I have read, that D8 can take Hammersmidt but it won't work ideal. There is no chance to use front derraileur. So I was wondering if it is possible to combine HS with some kind of rocker link in order to get a chain line to the height of 40 tooth chainring (Trek did something similar on their DH bike). I am not sure if it is possible with HS but theoretically it should work.

[dascro]

Originally Posted by persing

I have read, that D8 can take Hammersmidt but it won't work ideal. There is no chance to use front derraileur. So I was wondering if it is possible to combine HS with some kind of rocker link in order to get a chain line to the height of 40 tooth chainring (Trek did something similar on their DH bike). I am not sure if it is possible with HS but theoretically it should work.

I'm sure anyone with even the most basic understanding of engineering principles would be able to design something but then you are forced to ask, why?

It will be expensive, likely add significant weight and may be something more to break or damage on the trail. A modification like this is only worthwhile if you were forced to only choose from the SC lineup. Since you aren't it just makes more sense to take your money elsewhere if you are concerned about these things.

[Loll]

If you put a Hammersmidt on a D8, what is the difference with that and putting a hammersmidt on a V10 for a couple hundred more in frame price?

I suppose on the D8, one can raise and lower the seat by 7".

[AznRider]

Driver 8 runs 8.725 x 2.725 rear shocks stock........would it be wise to run 8.5 x 2.5 to get a slacker HA albeit slightly shorter rear travel? i dont mind 7inch rear travel though......hope the rear tire wont rub on the seatpost or carbon links....

[Zen_Turtle]

Pricing is a big disappointment.
Will be interesting to see how many are they going to sell.

[Freeblurd]

Alright guys,

usually I find it interesting to see what is being said on this forum, and try to stay out these things. Plenty of industry folks have gotten sucked into never ending forum wormholes, and I am going to try to stay out of that situation. That said, you guys are killing the poor Driver 8, and I want to give a little background so you can see it the way we do.

I'm going to guess that most of the folks mourning the VP Free have never ridden a V10. When I first got on the Free many years ago, I thought it was the best thing since sliced bread. I rode it everywhere, and loved it. Then I tried a V10... There really is a night and day difference between the suspensions on these two bikes, and after riding a V10, the Free feels harsh, high and heavy in comparison.

Harsh: The Free has a very, very different shock leverage curve than the V10. It doesn't absorb bumps very well in the top of the stroke, at least for an 8" bike. This shock rate was designed for hucking cliffs, not for really for the typical dh riding we all do. We wanted the Driver 8 to feel more like the V10- which required a lower link mounted shock. This really gets in the way of any possibility of a front der. Sorry.... But the bike is much, much, more fun to ride in any sort of actual down situation. Try one!

High: People complained about the bb/ride hight of the Free, as they probably should have. An 8" bike needs a high bb. An 8" bike that is designed to be pedalled all over needs a REALLY high bb. This makes it less fun on the down. These bikes are for the down, primarily.

Heavy. Well, it needed to be heavy- it was being hucked off cliffs! The Free was the strongest bike we ever made. Which is kind of at odds with a pedaling bike, don't you think? Too much versatility CAN be a bad thing.

Why buy the Driver 8 instead of the V10?
Here's the deal. We really like riding big bikes. We go up to whistler a couple of times a year to go play with Bullits, Frees, and V10's. Maybe we take the Free out one day, the V10 the next- you get the idea. As you might expect- the V10 is by far the most fun on the super gnarl rocky, rooty nastiness. The Free (and Bullit) is great on the jump trails, local trails, and some tighter stuff. No one wants to switch their bike every run, just so they can have an optimum experience on each different trail. Of course- no one really wants to buy two bikes, either. So basically, the Driver 8 is a mix between the V10 and Free. It is damn fun everywhere. It is heavier than a V10, because it is meant to live a hard life. The stays and tubing are all thicker to resist denting better, and in general should add up to a very durable bike. It also is a lot more fun to jump. Playful bikes are fun.

While we were at it, we wanted to work on the pivots. DH bikes see a lot of abuse, and we experience that ourselves when we are slopping through the muck all day long, powerwashing the poor beasts, and generally just being rude to the bikes. The V10 doesn't really like that. The Free doesn't really like that. The Driver laughs at it. There are so many seals on the thing that the grease ports are just icing on the cake. We have had protos up in BC for about 8 months now, and our test riders are loving it. The bike can take a beating.

Why doesn't it look as cool as the V10?

There were a ton of design considerations with this bike. We knew we weren't doing a new Free, so we wanted to keep some practical considerations in mind. You may notice we are making a big deal about the seatpost extension- that is because we spent a LOT of time trying to make this work. The steeper seat tube is what makes the pedaling position reasonable, but to keep the same down seating position as the V10, we had to start from a postion that was further back. That is why the seatmast sticks out further, not just because it looks cool. There was an insane amount of time juggling seatstay braces and the upper link with shock clearance, front triangle clearance and seatpost clearance. You can put the post basically all the way down to the shock without hitting anything. Getting that right was a pain in the...

The bent downtube has to be there for fork crown clearance and shock clearance. No way around that...

Why isn't it cheaper?

Originally this was going to be a tubed bike, and the goal was a much lower retail price. After spending a lot of engineering time on this concept, we found that the monocoque was really the only way to make this bike so it made sense. To get something this strong in a cheaper, tubed version would have been significantly heavier. We came upon a lot of similar challenges throughout the development, and usually we went the route that cost more, but made a better bike. Hopefully you guys can respect that. We like to make nice bikes.
Anyhow, that is the story behind this bike. Have fun out there!

Josh Kissner
Santa Cruz Bicycles

[Freeblurd]

"Santa cruz dropped the ball AGAIN. First the bullit.2 which I'm riding the 07 version and love it for the most part, BUT a 150mm rear end with a 73mm shell is a huge mistake that should never have happened."

oh yeah, I forgot to reply to this while I was at it. The Bullit has both 135mm and 150mm dropout options. You can get multiple cranks that bolt onto a 73mm shell, and are compatible with both 135 and 150 rear ends. There are NO 83mm compatible cranks that will have proper chainline with the 135mm rear end. So that's why we do that.

Josh Kissner
Santa Cruz Bicycles

[rich2007]

Thank you Josh!!!

I'm heading to my shop this afternoon to put a deposit down!

Santa cruz nailed it with this bike!

Ride it then judge it.

[Red PeeKay]

Originally Posted by Freeblurd

Alright guys,

usually I find it interesting to see what is being said on this forum, and try to stay out these things. Plenty of industry folks have gotten sucked into never ending forum wormholes, and I am going to try to stay out of that situation. That said, you guys are killing the poor Driver 8, and I want to give a little background so you can see it the way we do..........

.....................Anyhow, that is the story behind this bike. Have fun out there!

Josh Kissner
Santa Cruz Bicycles

Thanks Josh. We as riders arrive at out differing opinions based upon our past experiences, ability and knowledge base. Unfortunately, its often rare to actually get a first hand account on why a mtb manufacturer arrives at a particular design for any given model of bike they release. So as with many things in life, if we don't really know, we just fill in the gaps, this being tinted by our particular set of biases. So it is refreshing to hear your, and thereby SC's reasoning/rational in putting together the Driver 8. I think we often forget just how much research, testing and soul seeking goes into developing a new product. Unfortunately if said product doesn't "match" our needs then its very easy just to criticise. We are a picky lot and I guess its just human nature to expect "our" products to best suit our needs. This being said, if they don't, then the answer is quite simple, go elsewhere where they are. Which is why its interesting to note just how many posters in these forums list a multitude of varying brand bikes in their quiver. Obviously they have worked out that in the end its alway a case of "horses for courses", and this sometimes means having to look to other manufacturers, rather than "staying true" to a brand.

What I've gained from your detailed explanation is that the Driver 8 has been designed for a specific market... that of the lifted DH rider. If one needs a bike that can be ridden up hills, then look to another bike. Thanks again.

P.S. I'm still waiting on the arrival of my '09 Nomad but look forward to putting it work.!

[Red PeeKay]

Originally Posted by rich2007

Thank you Josh!!!

Ride it then judge it.

Couldn't agree with you more Rich.

[other aardvark]

Originally Posted by Red PeeKay

Couldn't agree with you more Rich.

Driver 8 is the best bike in the world and can do every thing from Red Bull suicide runs to going down the shops for milk and bread. I also believe I live in the best house on the best street in the best suburb of the best city in the best state in the best country in the world!!!!
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _ My Dsclaimer... this post constitutes my opinion which may or may not bare any inkling of truth and is merely my views based on subjective experience. Please be forewarned this post may contain media hyped pseudo-science and misleading clichéd industry jargon . I reserve the right to argue doggedly to uphold my "opinion" but may change my "opinion" with no notice and for no apparent reason . . .
__________________________________________________ _______________________________

ps All this "FRONT" derailler stuff aside Im wondering what SC has up its sleeve because it looks like when the seat is set high that the Driver may kind of drivable up a gentle slope.

[Mudd]

Sorry SC! You guys know that I'm a big fan, but it sounds like I'd better buy stock in VP-Frees!

I too, am pretty disappointed that this "long awaited" bike doesn't have a front derailleur.

I heard a lot of negative comments today as I was waiting in line for the local Klunkerz show, one of them was that this bike will force people to look to maybe, an Intense Socom, for replacing their aging VP-Frees?

I will go and test ride one when they become available, or when Kurt Vories brings his Allride tour here.

[justbob]

After reading Josh's comments on the Free I feel like a jerk for picking up a used one a year ago. What a crappy bike.

Originally it had a single ring 38. I rode it a couple of times in the Santa Cruz area. It was barely doable. Then I switched out the crank and put on a Dualrailler. It is still an effort to pedal a 40 lb bike uphill but adding a granny made all of the difference. I agree that have an option of running a derailleur or HS would be great. It will be interesting to see how the new bike rides. Maybe by the time I recover from my dislocated shoulder and broken humerus the bike will actually be shipping.

[dmx1]

I ordered my D8 yesterday, orange ano, medium. Have to wait till september before they reach Belgium, but that's ok. I never liked my VPFree, sold it after one season. Like Josh said, too high, wrong shock rate for dh.

[raff]

Jeff Steber must be crying tears of joy, stocking up on easton tubing for the new uzzi as we speak...

[A. Nony Moose]

what Josh said is interesting and makes sense.. but WHY would we want to put the seat height up to that of a Nomad's if all it's intended to do is Park and DH -type runs? It just sounds like all that effort to nail the seat positioning is negated if it's just used in a gravity application...

[Pete-G]

Well thanks Josh, makes a lot of sense, its an obvious freeride bike and will appeal to big numbers of people who don't want an out and out DH race rig and still want to go fast and big. I agree with what you say about the suspension/bb height of the Free. Its why I run mine with a shorter shock in.
I guess its a simple case of you can't please every one, everytime. Maybe I should really be at least demo'ing both V10 and D8 when the time comes that my poor Free can take no more.

[juice]

Originally Posted by Banshee Rider

I don't think they are dying breed by definition, I just think the emergence of 6" bikes with relaxed geometry has caused the breed to change direction. At the end of the day, a mid-travel bike thats low and slack like the Intense Slopestyle or Giant Reign X will still rip on descents, but they will build lighter by default and climb to the top much more effiently.

That's not to say trails don't exist that are too hairy for a 6" bike to be fun on, I know they are out there. However, I think alot of people underestimate the affect of geometry, which can really provide the same handling of the driver 8, with only a small loss in overall travel which will pass less noticed. What your buying isn't necessarily the travel (within reason), what your buying is the handling capability when trails get nasty. I do think this bike was executed poorly for a specific group of riders who wanted this bike, but was executely perfectly for the other group. What it boils down to is a niche within a niche. I think this bike will better sell to the gravity fed niche who for some odd reason are convinced the V10 is "too much bike," as opposed to the all-day backcountry destroyer, which I summarized my thoughts on in the first sentence of this post. There seem to be more of one and less of the other at this point in time. It's all about the $ these days.

Just my 2 cents.

You know, I think I'd agree with you, except this bike has a 67* head angle. That isn't racing or resort geometry. And for jumpy, smooth lines where a steeper head is more fun, there's no need for 8", a Nomad would provide a lot more pop off the lips. 67* is darn close to what I run on my xc/AM hardtail (67.5 on Transition TransAm w/6" fork).

But I need to admit that any bike that I really like just isn't going to sell that well. Can't blame SC for trying to make a bike that will sell, since they're in the business of selling product.

[bog]

As a current owner of a Nomad and a former owner of an old school Heckler, new school Superlight, Blur Classic and VP Free I think the SC folks are fooling themselves thinking that an 8" bike that allows you to put the saddle up but not put a granny ring on is very useful for most people. Sounds to me like they ran out of time and/or money for this project and had to make some compromises. Also, what's up with the price? A bike park frameset that can't be ridden anywhere else just isn't worth that much coin!

Everyone that is dissapointed with the D8 needs to look at a new Intense Uzzi VPX. That bike blows this on away AND has the new generation VPP suspension. Somehow Intense managed to hit the mark while SC couldn't make it happen (read Josh's comments).

Maybe they have something up their sleeves to show us at Sea Otter?!

I have to say that the Blur Carbon is a fantastic looking bike and it looks like SC nailed it in every aspect on that one. It's a bit spendy for me but it should still sell like hotcakes.

[AznRider]

would have been nice if the D8 has 66deg or sub......

[RubberSideUp]

Originally Posted by Mudd

Sorry SC! You guys know that I'm a big fan, but it sounds like I'd better buy stock in VP-Frees!

I too, am pretty disappointed that this "long awaited" bike doesn't have a front derailleur.

I heard a lot of negative comments today as I was waiting in line for the local Klunkerz show, one of them was that this bike will force people to look to maybe, an Intense Socom, for replacing their aging VP-Frees?

I will go and test ride one when they become available, or when Kurt Vories brings his Allride tour here.

Except the Socom has no front derailleur either. You must me the Uzzi.

[Mudd]

Originally Posted by RubberSideUp

Except the Socom has no front derailleur either. You must me the Uzzi.

No, you can put one on an 8" travel Socom!

[rich2007]

The d8 has 67 with a 560 crown to axle. So any fork + headset you put on it with slack it out to a 66-66.5deg headtube. Plus compared to a nomad you will be running more sag which = slacker hd. Every thing comes down to personal preference and the super slacked out hd has its place (sprinting down the nastiest line). A 66-67 hd angle is more fun for most gravity ridding and will still allow you to ride the super steeps. As for the no front derailleur, just but a 34t up front and 11-34 in back. You can climb anyfire road with this combination and if you are climbing on single track you wont want a slacked headtube ant way! You can all ways switch out to 36-38t for lift assisted riding.

[JohnnyG 1970]

Thanks for posting about the Driver 8. I feel S/C. Hit the nail on the head with this bike. The V-10 was the DH bike I was planning on getting. But the Driver 8 we fit my needs a lot better sometimes less is more AKA the travel, and the grease fitting perfect for those of us who do wash their bike's.So I will go with that instead of the V-10. Plus with the D/8 I can run two forks. I nice triple crown RockShox W/C or for some FR a RockShox Totem.I could care less about a front derailleur.That is what my two ALL Mountain bikes are for-Tracer Vpp, 2009 Nomad ll. The big Q!!! When will someone do a test on the Driver 8? Can't wait to read about it. All I can say is between Santa Cruz and Intense the other MTB company's have a lot of catching up to do.They are both on top of their game right now. P.S For the guys who are talking about VP-Free, New Uzzi, vs V-10, Driver 8 This is my take. VP-Free= FR, New Uzzi= FR/ Mini DH But the V-10=Full DH and the Driver 8= DH+FR. Why take a knife to a gun fight. Take a very large gun!!! DH hill bikes are meant to be ridden down hill. Not peddle up in a granny gear.

[kntr]

Everyone I know rides a big bike uphill with a granny ring. We all ride to ride our big bikes not push them. One guy rides a V10 with two rings and no front derailer. He shifts by hand!!! We have to ride 3-5 miles of easy up for 10-15miles of intense rough down. Two of the guys I ride with were waiting for the new VPfree and now this. They both decided against the Driver 8 because it wont take a front derailer. I think a lot of guys were waiting from something way different. You cant climb our fire roads with a 36t ring.

Do all bikes need a front derailer. Very very disappointing,

[kntr]

Originally Posted by RubberSideUp

Except the Socom has no front derailleur either. You must me the Uzzi.

Yes the Socom will take a front derailer.

[BiGWaVeDave]

Originally Posted by Freeblurd

"Santa cruz dropped the ball AGAIN. First the bullit.2 which I'm riding the 07 version and love it for the most part, BUT a 150mm rear end with a 73mm shell is a huge mistake that should never have happened."

oh yeah, I forgot to reply to this while I was at it. The Bullit has both 135mm and 150mm dropout options. You can get multiple cranks that bolt onto a 73mm shell, and are compatible with both 135 and 150 rear ends. There are NO 83mm compatible cranks that will have proper chainline with the 135mm rear end. So that's why we do that.

Josh Kissner
Santa Cruz Bicycles

Josh,
I can see the reasoning there, BUT in order to run the 135 setup you not only have to replace the dropouts, but the BB needs to be shorter to get effective chainline, also I believe the Saint Front Derailleur has a longer throw to accomodate that longer BB. So if I want to throw a 135 rear setup at a minimum I'm going to need new wheelset, new BB, and possibly a new FD. II've got the 135 dropout kit in my toolbox collecting dust anyway. My stock off the floor setup was purchased complete with a 150mm rear end, Holzeffeler BB and saint FD.

I still love my 40lb bullit for what I ride, which is everything, but chainline is still not that great. If you've ridden South Mountain in Arizona you know we have some super technical Rocky trails that must be ridden UP and require 7-8" of travel to really rail on. Not everybody has a lift access or Whistler style resort to ride. So what was the Engineering thought process and feedback from riders who have to Pedal up?

[honourablegeorge]

Originally Posted by kntr

We have to ride 3-5 miles of easy up for 10-15miles of intense rough down

Where is this wonderful place? Have you got a spare room?

[kntr]

Originally Posted by honourablegeorge

Where is this wonderful place? Have you got a spare room?

Montana


Standing on top. Im not pushing the entire way when you can pedal.

[honourablegeorge]

Looks awesome. Nice hat.

[Mudd]

Originally Posted by kntr

Yes the Socom will take a front derailer.

Love that Socom!

[kntr]

Originally Posted by honourablegeorge

Looks awesome. Nice hat.

Thats my buddy that rides a V10 with two front rings. It was cold on top that day at about 25 F.



He has been trying to rig up a front derailer for a couple years on his v10. He wants to try the Hammer Schmidt now since the Driver 8 wont take a front derailer.

We were all wishing the new SC bike would take a front derailer. Santa Cruz lost a couple sales on this one.

Front derailers are nice when you ride here. You can push if you want. See ya at the top.

[Mudd]

Originally Posted by kntr

He has been trying to rig up a front derailer for a couple years on his v10. He wants to try the Hammer Schmidt now since the Driver 8 wont take a front derailer.

We were all wishing the new SC bike would take a front derailer. Santa Cruz lost a couple sales on this one.

Front derailers are nice when you ride here. You can push if you want. See ya at the top.

Time for someone to invent a "reverse Hammerschmidt"!
ie. - 38 tooth chainring with a 22 tooth "underdrive".

[idig2000]

Quote:
Originally Posted by RubberSideUp
Except the Socom has no front derailleur either. You must me the Uzzi.

No, you can put one on an 8" travel Socom!
__________________


Last edited by Mudd : 3 Hours Ago at 07:08 AM.

Originally Posted by Mudd

No, you can put one on an 8" travel Socom!

Nice "edit" Mudd,

You completely changed your original response in which you agreed with Rubbersideup, Now it seems that you are in fact correcting him (complete with exclamation point).

[Mudd]

Originally Posted by idig2000

Quote:
Originally Posted by RubberSideUp
Except the Socom has no front derailleur either. You must me the Uzzi.

No, you can put one on an 8" travel Socom!
__________________

Last edited by Mudd : 3 Hours Ago at 07:08 AM.

Nice "edit" Mudd,

You completely changed your original response in which you agreed with Rubbersideup, Now it seems that you are in fact correcting him (complete with exclamation point).

Thread Police! I knew I had it right the first time.

The point being, there's better options for 8" travel front derailleur compatible bikes out there to replace the "overbuilt" VP-Free. Obviously, our friends at Santa Cruz don't think there's a market for such an "animal".

[AJT]

Originally Posted by Mudd

Time for someone to invent a "reverse Hammerschmidt"!
ie. - 38 tooth chainring with a 22 tooth "underdrive".

Why don't you check out the Schlumpf mountain drive. (google it) I think that this badger would work on SC's vpp ratios?
Discuss

[mehukatti]

I find the idea of front derailleur for this kind of bike quite funny, since I'm considering converting my xc/trail bike (09 Specialized Stumpjumper Comp) to single front ring since that's the only one I ever use. If something like 36/34 ratio isn't low enough then shell out the cash for Hammerschmidt. Actually I think that most people really wouldn't need gears at all for lift accessed resort riding. There are a few guys down here that run single speed setup with tensioner to keep things simple, light and cheap.

[juice]

Originally Posted by mehukatti

I find the idea of front derailleur for this kind of bike quite funny, since I'm considering converting my xc/trail bike (09 Specialized Stumpjumper Comp) to single front ring since that's the only one I ever use. If something like 36/34 ratio isn't low enough then shell out the cash for Hammerschmidt. Actually I think that most people really wouldn't need gears at all for lift accessed resort riding. There are a few guys down here that run single speed setup with tensioner to keep things simple, light and cheap.

Imagine the nastiest lines you've ever seen in a bike park. Now imagine climbing up a 10% grade fire road or doubletrack for an hour or more to ride lines like that. Now imagine doing that three times in a day. That's what some of us like to do. And no, I don't want to get off and push, unless it's truly too steep to pedal.

[Red PeeKay]

Originally Posted by Mudd

Love that Socom!

Mudd, what brand is that clip-in pedal in the first photo??

[derekr]

I'm really disapointed after being a very happy VP-Free owner then seeing this abomination..... What a shame.....

[al_bullit]

SC have not said this is a VP-Free replacement. Why does everyone assume it is? Sure, many want it to be but it isn't, its a bike in its own right. It has short comings for some, as does every bike, but thats why they have a range of bikes. Sure, ATM there is a hole where the VPFree was that the new Nomad and the Driver8 do close in on, but do not fill. But thats life for now so can we please all quit *****ing about what this bike isn't meant to be and get back to being nice folk who enjoy riding bikes. Thank you.

[honourablegeorge]

Originally Posted by al_bullit

SC have not said this is a VP-Free replacement. Why does everyone assume it is? Sure, many want it to be but it isn't, its a bike in its own right. It has short comings for some, as does every bike, but thats why they have a range of bikes. Sure, ATM there is a hole where the VPFree was that the new Nomad and the Driver8 do close in on, but do not fill. But thats life for now so can we please all quit *****ing about what this bike isn't meant to be and get back to being nice folk who enjoy riding bikes. Thank you.

People have been waiting for and speculating about a VP Free replacement on this board for as long as I can remember, and fact is, the Driver has replaced the VP Free in their lineup, if not in function. Unless they can squeeze a 7" bike into the gap betweeen this and the new Nomad (which has less travel and is more "All Mountain"), then people looking for a pedal friendly freeride (well, two-ring) bike will have to look to another brand, because SC has decided not to cater for them.

[Mudd]

Originally Posted by Red PeeKay

Mudd, what brand is that clip-in pedal in the first photo??

I run Mallets on my VP-Free, but that one looks like a Shimano 647 DX pedal.

[William42]

I had a glory 0. Fairly similar geometry (almost the same in fact). I removed the granny ring and ran 36x11x34. It'll get you to the top no problem. Any gear slower then that its just as fast (sometimes faster) to just get off and walk. For better chain retention and less dropped gears, it was 100% worth it. This is a fuggin gravity bike dudes. I think it looks rad. Well, not aesthetically, but the numbers and idea

I donno if it'll be the next big thing, but you wankers need to stop complaining about the lack of granny rings. If you need one for the hills you climb, you should probably be on a nomad or little bike. I think the only person I've seen that needs a big bike but has a decent pedal is kntr. Everybody else needs to just quit their ewanking and try one, or just don't buy it. I'm pumped to start seeing this suckers around.

[honourablegeorge]

I think it's a lovely looking bike, and for people looking for a park bike, it's ideal. But I get to ride parks a coupel of times a year, the rest of the time I pedal. I'll be looking elsewhere.

[lifer]

Looks like a great park bike. Unfortunately, I don't have lift acces very often. I can't seem to find a reason to replace my 32lb. '03 Bullit. I'm just not convinced that VPP is that much better than the Bullit/CCDB combo I've been riding the last three years (with zero problems).

[tattoooo]

I run a 1X9 on all of my non-ss bikes.

I can crank them up just damn near anything around me in the Tahoe area.

Man up.

Besides, why would you put a derailleur on a faux-dh bike?

[rwheezy]

simple thing about buying products, is that people like options, especially when dumping +2k into a bicycle frame.

[Banshee Rider]

Look at the bright side, for $2600 for the frame, atleast it must be being made by sapa here in the United States like the V10. Right?

[Red PeeKay]

Originally Posted by Mudd

I run Mallets on my VP-Free, but that one looks like a Shimano 647 DX pedal.

Cheers, it looks like the ones I've got on my hardtail back in Oz, never paid much attention to what the brand was. Works well for me, so am looking to buy a second set to put on the new Nomad. Will run flats most of the time, but when doing XC will probably swap them out for the clipins.

[Mudd]

Originally Posted by kntr

Yes the Socom will take a front derailer.

What's the black downtube clamp that says: "Do Not Overtighten" on it used for?
Is it a front derailleur stop?

[Khemical]

Originally Posted by AznRider

Driver 8 runs 8.725 x 2.725 rear shocks stock........would it be wise to run 8.5 x 2.5 to get a slacker HA albeit slightly shorter rear travel? i dont mind 7inch rear travel though......hope the rear tire wont rub on the seatpost or carbon links....

Driver 7 is like.....7 minute Abs....

[mxracer33x]

Originally Posted by Mudd

What's the black downtube clamp that says: "Do Not Overtighten" on it used for?
Is it a front derailleur stop?

looks like a Problem Solvers "backstops". Maybe that frame doesnt come with a Front Derailleur cable stop.

[William42]

Originally Posted by mxracer33x

looks like a Problem Solvers "backstops". Maybe that frame doesnt come with a Front Derailleur cable stop.

It doesn't. He actually had to grind down the derailler to get it to fit over the weld.

[Pete-G]

I find the Socom with a front mech even more odd than putting a front mech on a Free. The Free has that compromised geometery that allows it to climb, where as the Socom (appropiate geo) is a DH race bike and has good a decent DH racing record. I guess I'll never understand the need for it with out seeing the trails for myself, or at least seeing some proper trail pictures.

[Banshee Rider]

Originally Posted by Pete-G

I find the Socom with a front mech even more odd than putting a front mech on a Free. The Free has that compromised geometery that allows it to climb, where as the Socom (appropiate geo) is a DH race bike and has good a decent DH racing record. I guess I'll never understand the need for it with out seeing the trails for myself, or at least seeing some proper trail pictures.

Honestly, the Socom with a front mech is a far more appealing option than the VP-Free. Having ridden both extensively, they are radically different bikes. Although the Socom is marketed as a race only bike with the exact same geometry as the M3, it's really not that great of a race bike IMO. The shorter travel and less sag make it a steeper and higher than its big brother, and really not much lower or slacker than most 6" all mountain bikes that sit in the 13's and high 60's after sag. The VP was a confused bike with its 15.5" BB IMO. As I stated in previous posts, 8" do-it-all bikes are abortions, none of them climb good, and the only real thing they have going for them is how well they descend. The socom, of all the 8" bikes I'm seeing, has the most favorable geometry for balancing manageable geometry and downhill aggression; any lower and techincal climbing would be compromised by pedal strikes, and higher and you'd have a top heavy useless bike thats ultimately good for nothing (read: VP-Free).

Sorry if this post is brutally honest and offends 90% of the people posting here. Just talking opinions based on personal experience.

I still hold close to my posts earlier in this thread. If you can't manage a low and slack 6" bike (like a slopestyle or reign x), then your time is best hiking for runs that day with your downhill-ready machine, or your compensating heavily (inefficently) for a lack of handling skills.

[Khemical]

Originally Posted by Pete-G

I find the Socom with a front mech even more odd than putting a front mech on a Free. The Free has that compromised geometery that allows it to climb, where as the Socom (appropiate geo) is a DH race bike and has good a decent DH racing record. I guess I'll never understand the need for it with out seeing the trails for myself, or at least seeing some proper trail pictures.

You think that's funny I ride with a guy who put a front der. on a Yeti 303!

[Mudd]

Originally Posted by Banshee Rider

none of them climb good, and the only real thing they have going for them is how well they descend. The socom, of all the 8" bikes I'm seeing, has the most favorable geometry for balancing manageable geometry and downhill aggression; any lower and techincal climbing would be compromised by pedal strikes, and higher and you'd have a top heavy useless bike thats ultimately good for nothing (read: VP-Free).

Obviously, you've never ridden with me and seen how well my VP-Free climbs!

[Banshee Rider]

Originally Posted by Mudd

Obviously, you've never ridden with me and seen how well my VP-Free climbs!

I don't think I could focus on the climb ahead and still look back at the same time!

[A. Nony Moose]

Originally Posted by Banshee Rider

I don't think I could focus on the climb ahead and still look back at the same time!

oh SNAP

[Ro.nin]

Originally Posted by Banshee Rider

Honestly, the Socom with a front mech is a far more appealing option than the VP-Free. Having ridden both extensively, they are radically different bikes. Although the Socom is marketed as a race only bike with the exact same geometry as the M3, it's really not that great of a race bike IMO. The shorter travel and less sag make it a steeper and higher than its big brother, and really not much lower or slacker than most 6" all mountain bikes that sit in the 13's and high 60's after sag. The VP was a confused bike with its 15.5" BB IMO. As I stated in previous posts, 8" do-it-all bikes are abortions, none of them climb good, and the only real thing they have going for them is how well they descend. The socom, of all the 8" bikes I'm seeing, has the most favorable geometry for balancing manageable geometry and downhill aggression; any lower and techincal climbing would be compromised by pedal strikes, and higher and you'd have a top heavy useless bike thats ultimately good for nothing (read: VP-Free).

Sorry if this post is brutally honest and offends 90% of the people posting here. Just talking opinions based on personal experience.

I still hold close to my posts earlier in this thread. If you can't manage a low and slack 6" bike (like a slopestyle or reign x), then your time is best hiking for runs that day with your downhill-ready machine, or your compensating heavily (inefficently) for a lack of handling skills.

I'm a huge SC fan, but, unfortunately this kid is right...

Very, very odd decision.

[William42]

I like getting up and down the hill as fast as I can with as few dropped chains as possible. Since I can walk almost as fast as my 36x34, and faster then any gear lower, if I can't climb a hill in 36x34 I'd rather be walking up it and moving faster. If you find me a fireroad I can't climb in a 36x34, call me Nancy. Looks like we've got alot of people named Nancy in this thread, who should probably be on 3-4 inch XC bikes instead.

[kntr]

I love my Socom for a TRUE do all bike. People complain that its not slack enough to be a DH race rig. That works great for me with a 66. I dont want just a race rig. I want a bike I can race on the weekend and a bike I can RIDE, not push, during the week. It works great on shuttles, too. I can throw it in granny and ride the uphill sections, when my DH buddy's are pushing. I can ride uphill faster than they can push most of the time. We all ride big bikes so a front derailer is a must on our bikes. A lot of my buddys were waiting for the new VPFree bike and the Driver 8 is not a do all bike. They are marketing it as a do all bike. Everyone has a different definition of a do all bike. My Socom weighs 35-36 now with I9s and single ply 2.5 Minions for AM riding. When its time to go to the resorts, I throw on the Azonic Outlaws with 2ply 2.5/2.7 Minions. Ya, I could have 2 bikes with the money Ive spent, but I dont want two bikes. I want one bike. Ive always had do all bikes, since I converted to AM riding; 00 Big Hit, 02.5 Fly, 05 Big Hit, 06 Fly, 08 SX Trail, and an 07 Socom.

We have crazy long DH trails here, but you have to work for them. Sometimes we will climb in granny gear for 2-4 hours just to get a hour DH. I dont want to ride a XC bike for an hour DH. I love my cushy DH bikes on the DH. Not everyone gets to live by a resort with a ton of DH trails.

[Mudd]

Originally Posted by kntr

I love my Socom for a TRUE do all bike. People complain that its not slack enough to be a DH race rig. That works great for me with a 66. I dont want just a race rig. I want a bike I can race on the weekend and a bike I can RIDE, not push, during the week. It works great on shuttles, too. I can throw it in granny and ride the uphill sections, when my DH buddy's are pushing. I can ride uphill faster than they can push most of the time. We all ride big bikes so a front derailer is a must on our bikes. A lot of my buddys were waiting for the new VPFree bike and the Driver 8 is not a do all bike. They are marketing it as a do all bike. Everyone has a different definition of a do all bike. My Socom weighs 35-36 now with I9s and single ply 2.5 Minions for AM riding. When its time to go to the resorts, I throw on the Azonic Outlaws with 2ply 2.5/2.7 Minions. Ya, I could have 2 bikes with the money Ive spent, but I dont want two bikes. I want one bike. Ive always had do all bikes, since I converted to AM riding; 00 Big Hit, 02.5 Fly, 05 Big Hit, 06 Fly, 08 SX Trail, and an 07 Socom.

We have crazy long DH trails here, but you have to work for them. Sometimes we will climb in granny gear for 2-4 hours just to get a hour DH. I dont want to ride a XC bike for an hour DH. I love my cushy DH bikes on the DH. Not everyone gets to live by a resort with a ton of DH trails.

Dude, you and me are totally on the same page!
Question: I heard a couple people state that they cracked Socom frames. Any issues with you?

[kntr]

Originally Posted by Mudd

Dude, you and me are totally on the same page!
Question: I heard a couple people state that they cracked Socom frames. Any issues with you?

Im a smooth rider for the most part. I dont break parts very often, but the bike has seen 10ft drops, 20 ft gaps, 15+ resort days (Whistler, Silver Star, Fernie, Big Mountain), and 500 DH miles. No problems, no dents, no cracks. Im keeping it. Ive gone through tires, rear wheels, a headset, all bearings, and both front and rear brakes. I use/ride my Socom 4-5 days a week when the ground isnt covered in snow.

[stiingya]

Originally Posted by Freeblurd

We knew we weren't doing a new Free,

You may have knew you weren't doing a new free, but that's what the majority of your customers expected and wanted, and what most of them including myself were at least initially using to judge this new bike by. So I think the somewhat negative overall reaction your getting is just due to missed expectations. And then considering those expectations a person does have to wonder if SC didn't miss an opportunity to provide many of these customers with a new VPfree like we all thought must surely be coming any day now... (especially knowing there is a VPP2 Uzzi on it's way)

Taking aside customer expectations, there is definitely discord with a bike that doesn't have a front derailleur, but was so painstakingly produced to be able to raise it's seatpost to a full pedaling effective height. It makes no sense why a bike that is by your own words primarily designed to be ridden down hill would need a fully extended seatpost. Really seems like a mixed set of priorities used to design a bike?

Given the vast amounts of die hard SC fans, (including myself), I'm sure there will be more than a few stubborn enthusiasts that will run this bike up and down the trail. But I think the majority of riders will see this bike as a second option downhill rig to it's big brother V10; or as a dedicated resort/shuttle bike that I'm sure will excel in that use. (course even most resort bikes still have a front derailleur at least as an option)

At any rate you can't please everyone...?

Originally Posted by Freeblurd

But the bike is much, much, more fun to ride in any sort of actual down situation.

These bikes are for the down, primarily.

You may notice we are making a big deal about the seatpost extension- that is because we spent a LOT of time trying to make this work... Getting that right was a pain in the...

Josh Kissner
Santa Cruz Bicycles

[JonoB]

Having owned a 'free since 2005 (first randy spangers frame after he had finished with dropinNZ and then an insurance replacement in 2007 when the first one was stolen), I've been thinking about a replacement for the last six months or so.

The question I've had is whether to get another "do it all" bike (my other bike is a ti hardtail, with rather old-school geometry), or to get two bikes for each purpose - a 5-ish inch trail bike and a DH-specific bike.

Over the years I've done big climbs on my 'free - 1200 vertical meters up one hill in one case, an 800m climb last week - that sort of thing. For this, the granny on my 'free has been a godsend. I've got a friend with a 'free, and he climbs everything with a 36-tooth front. But he's stronger and fitter than me, and my knees are a bit dodgy from several years of riding my free up hills I ride with a lot of guys who use inappropriate bikes for what I call extreme-XC - a couple of VP-frees, one friend with a transition blindside etc, and while intellectually I know that the nomad would be a better fit for me, I like the fact that I can ride pretty much anything on the way back down a hill on the same bike that I took up it.

Anyways - down to the point - I would have been more interested in the driver 8 if it had a front derailleur, but I'm still pretty damned interested in it. But most importantly I'm going to wait until the damned thing is released and we get reports back from people riding it before I make up my mind.

And as for the name - it's growing on me. I met the original driver 8 (doggy), and can't think of a better tribute for that friendly enormous beast.