Rear shock perfect but bottoms out on bigger drops

[Justin Fox]

Hi guys,

JUst thought some of you could offer some suggestions.

I've got an 07 Reign with the stock Fox RP2 shock on it. It's got rebound adjust, and a simple 2 way propedal (on/off) lever and that's it.

I've got it set up to how I like it, which is a little bit more pressure (less sag) than usual and I run it with propedal off.

Yesterday I hit a drop which was bigger than what I usually do and the whole bike bottomed out hard. I also busted up my ankle pretty badly (but it's fine today).

Here are some pics of the drop, you can see how badly the bike bottoms out, forks too.













I've got the bike set up how I like it for all mountain/trail riding but the bike bottoming out so hard on that drop makes me think twice about the set-up, is there anything that can be done to still have the same feel for trail riding but also cope with the bigger stuff?

Any suggestions appreciated.

[tonyl11]

Well, The first thing is in general that bike can handle that sized drop (Frame, at least) The rp23 is a great shock but does not have Compression (high/low or any at all) Which is why you are bottoming out on the big stuff (at least part of it)

other than running more air to make up for the extra pressure (I carry my shock pump with my anyway) That way you could run hte air for the trails, then pump it up when you get the drops)

or look to upgrade to a coil with full adjustments or a air with the same. Look at the manitou ISX-6 (Not sure if a shock with a reserve body) will fot on that reign) I know it doesn't on my trance!

The other thing you can do is sent it to Push. They can tune it based off of your weight and riding style and if youpend the extra $19. on top of the tune) they can put a bottom out bumper in it, which will help lessen out our your problem.

[Bob Goatse]

Does your frame have alternate shock mounting holes? My Kona Dawg has two sets of holes to mount the lower shock bolt in. One set provides a more linear spring rate, while the other provides a more progressive one (better setting for doing the big stuff).

Other than that, a Push tune is probably your only option without running a high pressure.

[jeffus]

I'd go coil Push DHX-5 nice shock and the bottom out is more controlled, I have a Push'd Float R and the coil is much better at handling the bigger stuff, just a weight disadvantage.

[drain bamage]

Could the iron horse warrior 4.0 handle that drop? If so how well?

[Clutchman83]

Guys! Guys! Guys!

First off, that frame won't handle a newer coil or piggyback shock. If you want to go coil look for a pre-07 Vanilla rear shock in a 7.875x2.00 size for the same travel or a 7.875x2.25 if you want to bump up to 6.7" travel. Having said that, the coil shock is going to be more linear than an air shock and is gonna probably bottom just as hard if not worse. I have an 05 Reign with an RP3 and I've had very good results from having it tuned by PUSH. If you call them and specify you want it tuned for more aggressive riding and freeriding specifically they will tune the compression to suit that style. Unfortunately, I'm not sure if they can add more bottom out damping to any shock that will fit that frame.

Having said that though, your body positioning looked good, and I would fully expect to bottom, or get close to bottoming just about any bikes suspension on a 4-footer to flat like that. I don't know if you can expect equipment to help out a whole lot more in that kind of a situation. You really just need to suck the bike and cushion the landing as much through body movement in those situations. There are guys riding BMX bikes that drop three times that height, the suspension isn't designed to do all the work, you gotta help it out a little. I think riding smooth is gonna be your best option rather than modifying the equipment, that or look for something with a transition instead of a flat landing.

[jetta_mike]

You could also lay of the drop to flat...they are soo 2001.

[William42]

Its a drop to flat, what do you expect?

Go faster next time, or drop something that actually has a transition.

Or get a hardtail where you can use your legs as suspension properly.

[Sov]

That particular Reign runs a high volume air can doesn't it? You could try a low volume air can for more progression through the stroke. Or add some oil to your high volume can to decrease its volume.

Also, be smoother, drop in with more speed etc....

[TLL]

Originally Posted by Sov

That particular Reign runs a high volume air can doesn't it? You could try a low volume air can for more progression through the stroke. Or add some oil to your high volume can to decrease its volume.

Also, be smoother, drop in with more speed etc....

We have a winner. A LV air can will more than likely solve the issue, as will a PUSH tune.

The easy fix is to add more air to the shock and fork for jumps. Not an uncommon fix.

[Clutchman83]

Originally Posted by TLL

We have a winner. A LV air can will more than likely solve the issue, as will a PUSH tune.

It doesn't make that much of a difference. I know, I've used both. It helps, but it isn't super drastic. 3:1 leverage ratio is a little high for the volume change, maybe adding oil to a low volume air can could bump up the progressiveness.

*edit - christ man, how did you manage to rack up 3k+ posts in 8 months!?! Thats on par to compete with SMT!

[William42]

If my shock didn't bottom off low speed drops to flat like that I'd think something was wrong.

[Jayem]

I agree with the William. The first thing I thought when I saw this thread yesterday was "drop to flat", which means that there's a good chance of bottoming.

So you either fix this one of a few ways;

More compression damping, which will probably mess up the plush travel you were mentioning before.

More air pressure, which will also mess up the plush travel, and it may take a much bigger change in air pressure to actually cause this to make a big difference.

Better technique or avoid drops-to-flat like in the picture. Anytime we do those types of drops we have to think about the technique and do it right, you rely a lot on your fork to absorb a lot of the force, so you might need to up the compression damping in the fork, then dry and land on the rear but not "slam" it down. The flat pedals are interesting as well, from doing drops on both styles of pedals, you have more control with clipless, and more ability to redirect that force to the part of the bike that can absorb it (fork). Before anyone says how great flats are for drops, we're not talking about 20 foot skinnies in BC, we're talking a little drop.

There are a lot of drops that I know I can do and walk away from just fine, but drops to flat like in the picture are not good for all but the most overbuilt bikes. Your bike can do a 4 foot or greater drop no problem, but not repeatedly to flat.

At the very least you should be doing those drops with the propedal compression adjustment on, it's at least a little more compression damping.

[Justin Fox]

Thanks for ALL the input guys. I suppose what I wanted to know was whether or not it was "normal" for my bike, which is set up how I like it, to bottom out on this particular drop.

I'm pretty sure then that it's my lack of experience with bigger drops that screwed my ankle.

[William42]

Originally Posted by Justin Fox

Thanks for ALL the input guys. I suppose what I wanted to know was whether or not it was "normal" for my bike, which is set up how I like it, to bottom out on this particular drop.

I'm pretty sure then that it's my lack of experience with bigger drops that screwed my ankle.

It looks like you're using flats. You're putting more weight on one leg then the other, I'd try and even that up. Also, I tweak my ankles quite a bit when I keep my feet as far back as yours, I chalk it up to naturally weak ankles. At any rate I ride with my feet much further forward on my pedals, the ball of my foot on the dead center of my pedal, my toes not even on it. I've tweaked my ankles several times landing exactly the way your picture shows. The ball of your foot is a lot stronger then your toes.

Start doing those calf workouts and ride with your feet a little further forward on the pedals. Also, when you start hitting drops about that big, its time to start looking for higher speed drops, and drops with a good transition (meaning that you land going the same or similar direction as you're falling).

[Karve]

Go for a ISX Evolver 6

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/M...?ModelID=17915
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/M...?ModelID=21366

probably the best air shock out there for heavy duty riding and has high speed compression adjustments so u can have it soft but still not bottom out

Gets awesome reviews

http://www.mtbr.com/cat/suspension/r...78_138crx.aspx

Having correct compression adjustments will help..... I remember doing a drop last summer about the same size - i am lucky to have a ccdb and it kept giving my ankles a whack - unfortunately with the ccdb its easy to get your settings a bit screwed - anyway after adjusting the HSC it was like landing on a firm sponge and I had lots more control and no ankle pain.

All the technique tips are a good idea as well but I dont see to much wrong with your style (level off those legs a bit maybe).... its easier to buy new kit anyway

[Clutchman83]

Originally Posted by Karve

Go for a ISX Evolver 6

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/M...?ModelID=17915
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/M...?ModelID=21366

probably the best air shock out there for heavy duty riding and has high speed compression adjustments so u can have it soft but still not bottom out

Gets awesome reviews

http://www.mtbr.com/cat/suspension/r...78_138crx.aspx

Having correct compression adjustments will help..... I remember doing a drop last summer about the same size - i am lucky to have a ccdb and it kept giving my ankles a whack - unfortunately with the ccdb its easy to get your settings a bit screwed - anyway after adjusting the HSC it was like landing on a firm sponge and I had lots more control and no ankle pain.

All the technique tips are a good idea as well but I dont see to much wrong with your style (level off those legs a bit maybe).... its easier to buy new kit anyway

Won't fit a Reign .

Unfortunate because it is an amazing shock.

[petercarm]

Is this the proper time to mention that higher speed doesn't take the sting out of drops to flat. If there is the slightest vestige of a transition then using the correct (usually higher) speed to use it will soften the landing. However, if it is totally flat the landing impact is going to be the same size regardless of speed.

If you guys are talking about speed helping you get other aspects of technique right then I'll just crawl back under my rock.

FWIW I reckon the essence of the OPs technique is fine but he just needs a bit more acentuation of the rear wheel first landing (without slamming the front). Adding oil the the shock air can is a recipe for getting a stuck down shock. You're better off fitting O-rings to remove air volume.

[petercarm]

Also , the OP's backside hits the saddle in the middle of the landing - probably causing more accentuation of the slam. Looks like you have a gravity dropper style post fully retracted - it still may not be enough while you're honing your technique for drops of this size.

Hope the ankle gets better.

[Jerk_Chicken]

Add more air. Everything is a tradeoff. If you're bottoming and don't want to break that frame more than it has been, you'll protect it by trading off a bit of extra preload for the bottom out protection.

[woodyak]

Originally Posted by Clutchman83

Guys! Guys! Guys!

I have an 05 Reign with an RP3 and I've had very good results from having it tuned by PUSH. If you call them and specify you want it tuned for more aggressive riding and freeriding specifically they will tune the compression to suit that style. Unfortunately, I'm not sure if they can add more bottom out damping to any shock that will fit that frame.

PUSH does offer a bottom out bumper for the RP shocks. I had one on an old bike and it did help take the harshness out of the bottoming out. It still didn't protect the frame enough which broke soon after.

[mrpercussive]

Originally Posted by William42

Its a drop to flat, what do you expect?

Go faster next time, or drop something that actually has a transition.

Or get a hardtail where you can use your legs as suspension properly.

William42 hit it right on the nail...

[drain bamage]

So could this bike handle a 4 foot drop to flat?: http://www.rscycle.com/2009-Iron-Horse-Warrior-4-0

[Jayem]

Originally Posted by drain bamage

So could this bike handle a 4 foot drop to flat?: http://www.rscycle.com/2009-Iron-Horse-Warrior-4-0

Not repeatedly, not with the technique in the picture above, probably not with the compression adjustments (or lack thereof) on the shock.

[Justin Fox]

William thanks for the foot placement idea. I'm 100% for that and didn't even think about it at the time. Putting my foot forward on my pedals would have saved my ankle from bending and spraining. I've just realised it's what a lot of dirt jumpers and BMX guys do (have their feet in the middle of the pedal as opposed to the ball of their feet in the middle of the pedal).

PS: Ankle is fine. It didn't puff up on the night and I'm only feeling a bit of tenderness when I push my toes towards me (feels just like a bruise if that makes sense). I doubt I've done anything serious to it at all.

PPS: Thanks again for all the input guys. Some of it's got me thinking of a new frame too (lol). Maybe in 09 hey?!

[edzwa]

OT
What helmet is that you are wearing?

[Clutchman83]

Originally Posted by edzwa

OT
What helmet is that you are wearing?

Looks like a Met Parachute, which have been known to lacerate faces....

[edzwa]

thanks for that looks scary

[RadiotelemetrieMoskau]

a few drops of oil in the negativ air chamber should alter the compression rate of the shock, but dont take it for granted, its been quite a while since i have been messing with floats.

another alternative would be to send it in to get it pushed.

best alternative - buy a coil over steel spring shock with a remote piggy back. after riding it you would know that the difference is not only 500g, NO air shock, and i really mean that, NO air shock will ever feal like a coil. and that little peace of damping in the float will never perform like a well set up coil over shock.

[Jerk_Chicken]

Originally Posted by RadiotelemetrieMoskau

a few drops of oil in the negativ air chamber should alter the compression rate of the shock, but dont take it for granted, its been quite a while since i have been messing with floats.

another alternative would be to send it in to get it pushed.

best alternative - buy a coil over steel spring shock with a remote piggy back. after riding it you would know that the difference is not only 500g, NO air shock, and i really mean that, NO air shock will ever feal like a coil. and that little peace of damping in the float will never perform like a well set up coil over shock.

In the negative air chamber? What, are you kidding? First, the seals on Fox air chambers are designed with notches, so they do allow one-way oil flow out for the purpose of controlled lubrication. Second, putting oil in the negative will only achieve hydrolocking it at top out (also forcing oil out of the chamber as well) and reduce the length, but not bottom out characteristics.

[William42]

Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken

In the negative air chamber? What, are you kidding? First, the seals on Fox air chambers are designed with notches, so they do allow one-way oil flow out for the purpose of controlled lubrication. Second, putting oil in the negative will only achieve hydrolocking it at top out (also forcing oil out of the chamber as well) and reduce the length, but not bottom out characteristics.

well said

[Clutchman83]

Originally Posted by RadiotelemetrieMoskau

best alternative - buy a coil over steel spring shock with a remote piggy back. after riding it you would know that the difference is not only 500g, NO air shock, and i really mean that, NO air shock will ever feal like a coil. and that little peace of damping in the float will never perform like a well set up coil over shock.

I'll say it again. No new coil shock w/ a piggyback, remote or not will fit. Besides, your suggesting getting a piggyback shock that has an adjustment for bottom out right? You need to specify that, not all piggyback shocks have bottom out control.

[Justin Fox]

Guys I have decided against upgrading the rear shock. If anything I'd rather save the cash for a new frame that can fit a better shock in future.

Instead of modding the bike I've been thinking a bit about 'finding my limit'. I've been slowly but surely pushing myself to go harder on the bike throughout the year, it's a natural progression right? After last Monday I think I've just about found my limit and I'm glad I've done so as it's hopefully going to put an end to the frustration I feel at times when I "whimp" out of doing something.

We all have to draw the line somewhere. Going over that line could hinder progression?

PS: Merry Christmas guys!!! Have fun, be safe.

[Bikinfoolferlife]

Originally Posted by Justin Fox

Guys I have decided against upgrading the rear shock. If anything I'd rather save the cash for a new frame that can fit a better shock in future.

Instead of modding the bike I've been thinking a bit about 'finding my limit'. I've been slowly but surely pushing myself to go harder on the bike throughout the year, it's a natural progression right? After last Monday I think I've just about found my limit and I'm glad I've done so as it's hopefully going to put an end to the frustration I feel at times when I "whimp" out of doing something.

We all have to draw the line somewhere. Going over that line could hinder progression?

PS: Merry Christmas guys!!! Have fun, be safe.

Just curious as to the ankle thing, as you didn't keep your pedals at 3/9 o'clock as you landed, assume it was your right ankle that got injured? Did the right pedal contact the ground?

Riding within your limits is a good thing in my book...going over that line has medical repercussions that I don't find worth it. Especially without health insurance, that can get expensive let alone slower healing as I get older...I still feel an ankle injury from running about 13 years ago...

[PsyCro]

Its been mentioned a couple times in this thread so far, but im gonna go into a little more detail. TECHNIQUE!! In the pictures it looks like you're dropping in almost leveled out.. your front wheel is only several inches higher than the back on the landing. For drops to flat like that you gotta have that front wheel almost up to yer chest, and use your legs as much as possible to ease the landing. Trust me, once you get that right, the drop will be easier on you and your bike.. you wont feel nearly as much of a 'thud' when you get that transition right.

Good luck

[b4 stealth]

Drops to transition with rough stuff in the approach/landing = suspension good
Drops to flat that are fairly smooth ground wise (think skate park) = suspension bad
Like it or not the strongest bikes are rigid. BMX bikes continually get hucked off of 10+ft to flat. I would look strongly into a FR hardtail with a burly 160mm fork. Something like a vagrant or a Norco, with a Van 36 up front.

[RadiotelemetrieMoskau]

Originally Posted by Clutchman83

I'll say it again. No new coil shock w/ a piggyback, remote or not will fit. Besides, your suggesting getting a piggyback shock that has an adjustment for bottom out right? You need to specify that, not all piggyback shocks have bottom out control.

most importantly, a seperate high / low speed shim stack is a very good thing. a coil over shock (roco, DHX, Vivid) has that, a float does not.

High Speed damping in general can be used as a bottom out control, additionally some shocks feature adjustable air pressure in the reservoir or an option to adjust the size of the reservoirs air chamber.

actually there are a lot of ways to finetune a piggy back coil over shock to get a decent end progression without having to change the spring rate.

I did not ride the vivid yet and have only limited experience with the dhx, but for th roco i can say that there are a full 4 ways to adjust bottom out.

1. external high spee compression adjuster
2. shims on high speed compreession
3. position of the IFP
4. pressure of the air chamber

All four in tandem, worked out correctly, should get you whereever you want to go with your setup.
.
disadvantage - you have to completely disassemble the shock to get to adjust 2 and 3.

unfortunately, this is no alternative for your current frame, but you might concider going to a piggy back shock with your next frame.

if you ask me, the added performance is always worth the extra weight.

[ChromedToast]

Learn to ride smoothly. Some people could probably just bunny hop up that drop.

[ChromedToast]

Originally Posted by Bikinfoolferlife

Just curious as to the ankle thing, as you didn't keep your pedals at 3/9 o'clock as you landed, assume it was your right ankle that got injured? Did the right pedal contact the ground?

That probably had something to do with the dead sailor followed by slamming into the ground.

[bjj4202000]

Well said. There is nothing more humbleing than seeing a local grom hopping UP a drop that you just wrecked your bike on. OP-Get your tush WAY behind that seat. land on the rear and let the bike float down to the front. That way you get to use the rear suspension first the front second and your legs third. You get a total of about 24 inches of travel before your body (the greast concentration of mass) has to change direction and go back up. If you don't get it right your goddies get all jacked on the tire . You will know exactly what went wrong and do it better next time! BMXers have been doing this all along by timing their contact points and allowing theri bodies to use the most distance to slow down while making the most of each contact point.