Firebird video

[kenbentit]

Here's a little video of the Firebird in action, riding at South Mtn in Phoenix,AZ.
Pivot Firebird Demo ride at South Mtn from Ken Bennett on Vimeo.

[TIMBERRR]

How about a review. Perhaps you could tell us how the bike rode with the DHX air.

That is one awesome looking trail. Just made it to the top of my must do's.

Great video.

[supermoto]

Thanks for the video, Ken. The firebird rides great. We got to take a couple of demos out last weekend. We hit some dirt jumps on Saturday and on Sunday we pointed them down some of our toughest big bike trails on South Mountain as shown in the video. The firebird is such a fun bike! They climb with the efficiency that we have come to know and expect from our Mach 5's. Jumping was made easy as they "pop" off the ramps without seeming to activate the suspension. They feel very balanced in the air. This was noted on the trail, too, as they were playful and easy to "flick". I couldnt tell a big difference between the RP23 and DHX air, and the RP23 bike seemed to handle the chunky descent down our "24th st" trail just fine. LIke the Mach 5, its kind of wierd sensation when you get to the bottom of a rocky section and wonder why your teeth arent rattled. Shifting and chain line were flawless, I assume due to the floating front derailleur mount. These bikes can be built up quite light, our demo weighed in at svelte 31#.
Here's a pic of LK on the demo;

[CharacterZero]

Great vid, thanks for posting.

[feetsnofail]

nice demo - sweet trail, will be putting the Firebird on my Demo list ...

please give the music cred's =)

[kenbentit]

The tunes are from one of my favorites; Wumpscut. Song is "Perdition" from the 'Evoke' CD.http://www.metropolis-records.com/ar...rtist=wumpscut

[OneBiketoRulethemAll]

yo what's up with the vid i'm fangin to see it Ken!

[eldoctor]

[kenbentit]

Video should still be working; just checked it to make sure.

[woogie11]

What is the biggest advantage to a floating linkage design? Looking at it, it seems as if you get effectively longer chainstays without the negative chain growth. Also, that you can more finely tune the shock rate since the links are longer than what is typical of DW. Am I correct, or what am I missing? How similar, or dissimilar is this to other DW iterations in terms of axle path/shock rate etc? Thanks.

[derby]

Originally Posted by woogie11

What is the biggest advantage to a floating linkage design? Looking at it, it seems as if you get effectively longer chainstays without the negative chain growth. Also, that you can more finely tune the shock rate since the links are longer than what is typical of DW. Am I correct, or what am I missing? How similar, or dissimilar is this to other DW iterations in terms of axle path/shock rate etc? Thanks.

Compared to shorter travel the links are longer on all the existing longer travel DWL's so far produced from Iron Horse and now Pivot. The exception in the future appears to be Turner's concept drawings of the DWL DHR which have much shorter links than prior long travel bikes.

My understanding is all the DWL's have an anti-squat curve rate very close to what is described in the patent and produced by the wheel path. The length of links is a matter of practicality to produce the combination of shock location, patented anti-squat rate wheel path, and wheel rate character (net compression rate) desired uniquely by each brand.

All DWL's have more than average chain stay lengthening during compression, although there is no noticeable pedal kickback sensation. DW has said the pedal kickback is produced by irregular chain tention, and riding DWL's makes it obvious he has designed very smooth chain tension effects for rough terrain pedaling.

Having ridden all the DWL's to current with travel from 4.5 to 6.3 and some 4 inch travel DWL's I can say there is a unique suspension feel or character of each brand. The Pivot Mach 5 and 429 wheel rate feels more linear than others, firmer in mid travel than other DWL brands. The others are closer in suspension feel to each other, more or less rising rate. The rising rate has less mid travel support and is more plush in sharp bump feel, but also wallows more and compresses deeper in corners and is quicker to bottom travel in g-outs without firming up compression damping and loosing some smaller bump compliance.

I'm really looking forward to demoing the Firebird to compare with the great balance of the 6Point and other future longer travel AM bikes using the DWL.

[woogie11]

I own a Mojo, which I don't like much, and I believe it's a mostly falling rate. I'm not so sure about the others. I am mostly curious as to what the advantages to a floating linkage are and if somebody knows for sure wheather or not the shock rate/axle path are unique to this DW design.

[derby]

Originally Posted by woogie11

I own a Mojo, which I don't like much, and I believe it's a mostly falling rate. I'm not so sure about the others. I am mostly curious as to what the advantages to a floating linkage are and if somebody knows for sure wheather or not the shock rate/axle path are unique to this DW design.

For sure, the Firebird axle path is unique.

I'm not sure if Pivot will use a custom shock tune or standard "shock rate". Call them to find out, the shock tune should be decided by now because the production Firebirds are due soon.

Regarding your sense of the Mojo having falling rate suspension, it sounds like a shock problem, because in fact the Mojo is very rising rate in overall axle to shock travel rate leverage, plus air shocks are rising rate to compound the rising rate. Maybe you have a Fox factory tuned Firm Propedal RP23 on your Mojo which would give it a relatively falling rate feel in shallow to mid travel compared to the shock the Mojo was designed for in 2004 which had no propedal and very soft compression damping. Look on the side of your shock for "tuning bars" inside a square on the decal, if the longest bar is highlighted it is the firm tune. Ibis has often swapped these rare mistakenly built firm propedal RP23's out for the common speced soft tuned, having the short bar highlighted in the decal.

I also own a Mojo and have ridden two Mach 5's. Between the Mach 5 and Mojo, the Mojo feels much more rising rate having more compliant mid travel. If the Firebird has similar rate as the Mach 5 but longer travel, I'd expect it to comply on smaller hits more like the Mojo than the firmer feeling Mach 5, and ramp up with more deep travel plushness on bigger hits than the shorter travel Mojo likes.

I really look forward to demoing the Firebird. It might be the first bike I like better than the Mojo for AM riding including much climbing.

Get a demo, it's the only true test of a bike's performance for your interests.

[kenbentit]

I've gotten 3 rides in on the Firebird so far and the feel is pretty much as Derby has guessed. Nice and supple on the smaller stuff and ramps up toward the end stroke for the bigger hits. I even ran it with closer to 40% sag on the last ride and while I definitely used all the travel I never felt that "spike" when you bottom out hard. I have a Canfield right now which I really love but I'm selling it to a friend so I can get my own 'Bird...

[derby]

Originally Posted by kenbentit

I've gotten 3 rides in on the Firebird so far and the feel is pretty much as Derby has guessed. Nice and supple on the smaller stuff and ramps up toward the end stroke for the bigger hits. I even ran it with closer to 40% sag on the last ride and while I definitely used all the travel I never felt that "spike" when you bottom out hard. I have a Canfield right now which I really love but I'm selling it to a friend so I can get my own 'Bird...

Hey 'bent' have you ridden a 6Point or 7Point? If so how does the Firebird compare in rear suspension?

The head angle is of the Firebird is more appropriately slacked for the travel, and I think the Firebird is a pound or more lighter than the 6Point.

I'm going to try to get out to AZ sometime in mid February or soon after with a main objective to demo the Firebird all over and around South Mountain.

[kenbentit]

I've only ridden on a couple of friend's bikes so it's tough to really say how it compares (just did the parking lot ride). One friend who's had a few IH models really likes the feel of my Canfield though and I like the feel of the Firebird even better than that sooo, in a roundabout way I guess I'd say it feels nicer Have you checked to see if the demo trailer is going to be in your area before Feb? He just left for a month, hitting spots in TX and AR and has 4 Firebirds for demos.

[woogie11]

http://ibiscycles.com/tech/dw_link/#anim...That sure doesn't look progressive. I haven't ridden it in a while, the PUSH tuned help quite a bit, however I just can't get over the extreme rear end flex, no there's nothing (technically) wrong with the bike. "is very rising rate in overall axle to shock travel rate leverage, plus air shocks are rising rate to compound the rising rate," not sure what that's supposed to mean. I spend most of my time on my Tracer.

[toHELLuRIDE]

Originally Posted by kenbentit

I've gotten 3 rides in on the Firebird so far and the feel is pretty much as Derby has guessed. Nice and supple on the smaller stuff and ramps up toward the end stroke for the bigger hits. I even ran it with closer to 40% sag on the last ride and while I definitely used all the travel I never felt that "spike" when you bottom out hard. I have a Canfield right now which I really love but I'm selling it to a friend so I can get my own 'Bird...

Yo Ken
Which shock were you running 40% sag? The DHX or RP?

[kenbentit]

That bike had the RP23 with high volume canister.

[TIMBERRR]

Originally Posted by kenbentit

That bike had the RP23 with high volume canister.

Were you able to run less sag with the DHX?

[kenbentit]

I ran the DHX equipped bike with pretty much the same amount of sag. Of course that shock has the boost valve as well so I had more adjustments (I'm getting mine with the DHX BTW). I've been able to check out the feel of the bikes with all shock options including a DHX5 Coil. With the DW link design there isn't a huge advantage of running the coil IMO unlike a lot of other bikes. The air actually feels very nice and you have the full adjustability as well (plus the weight savings). I want the DHX because I do a lot of DH type riding.

[toHELLuRIDE]

Forgot to mention that that trail looks awesome. IS it just south mtn? Or does the trail have a specific name. Think I may have seen 24th street trail earlier.
Sweet video.

[derby]

Originally Posted by woogie11

http://ibiscycles.com/tech/dw_link/#anim...That sure doesn't look progressive. I haven't ridden it in a while, the PUSH tuned help quite a bit, however I just can't get over the extreme rear end flex, no there's nothing (technically) wrong with the bike. "is very rising rate in overall axle to shock travel rate leverage, plus air shocks are rising rate to compound the rising rate," not sure what that's supposed to mean. I spend most of my time on my Tracer.

Yes, technically the Mojo's deepest inch of bottom travel leverage does turn from rising to falling rate to offset the extreme rising rate of the bottom travel of the RP23 air shock speced, so that deepest travel is more accessible. The top 5 inches of travel are rising rate in linkage leverage. Air shocks are all rising rate. Rising rate (shock) plus rising rate (leverage) nets compounded rising rates. Hope that makes more sense, sorry.

I had a Tracer for 5 years. I luv'd that bike and didn't find a better bike in every way until the Mojo in 2006. Now it could be the Firebird may work even better for me. And I'm really looking forward to demoing one.

[kenbentit]

The trails in the video were 1) Geronimo until the section where you see us kinda standing around deciding who's going in front then 2) National from just above the "waterfall"down to the split for Mormon. I ended up riding the Firebird down 24th Street so I didn't film anything (couldn't see the bike)...

[toHELLuRIDE]

Originally Posted by kenbentit

I've gotten 3 rides in on the Firebird so far and the feel is pretty much as Derby has guessed. Nice and supple on the smaller stuff and ramps up toward the end stroke for the bigger hits. I even ran it with closer to 40% sag on the last ride and while I definitely used all the travel I never felt that "spike" when you bottom out hard. I have a Canfield right now which I really love but I'm selling it to a friend so I can get my own 'Bird...

Ken

How you gonna spec out your BIRD? Fork? Wheels? DT?

[kenbentit]

Gonna get the frame and transfer the compatible parts from my Canfield over.
Marz. 66SL ('06 version)
DT Swiss EX1750 wheels (Big thanks to Paul @ DT )
RaceFace Evolve DH cranks
Premium Slim Pedals
SDG I-Beam post with Belair SL saddle
XT shifters
Stroker Trails (8" front, 6" rear)
Easton Monkey Lite Carbon DH bar
RaceFace D2 stem (0 deg/70 mm)
Chris King Devolution headset
I'm getting the frame with the DHX 5 air. Decided to go with a Medium since it's very close in size to the Canfield. I've been riding the prototype all weekend (we built it back up for a shop bike and to test parts). I'm amazed at how fast this bike is, both uphill and down. The suspension is similar to the Canfield but much more plush. It feels like you get acceleration through any depression or roller and square edge hits just disappear. The weight is also surprising, our Med. demo bikes are coming in at approx 32 lbs (complete with platform pedals). That's just with an XT build too so it's not going to be hard to go lower OR build it up for full DH duty without having it weigh a ton. The prototype with my DH setup on it weighs just under 35 lbs.( I swapped my stuff over so I didn't waste the shop's stuff ) I can't wait to get mine and hit up Bootleg Canyon.

[_dw]

Originally Posted by derby

Hey 'bent' have you ridden a 6Point or 7Point? If so how does the Firebird compare in rear suspension?

The head angle is of the Firebird is more appropriately slacked for the travel, and I think the Firebird is a pound or more lighter than the 6Point.

I'm going to try to get out to AZ sometime in mid February or soon after with a main objective to demo the Firebird all over and around South Mountain.

One of the things that I concentrated on with the Firebird was eliminating the "hammock" that you can feel in some air sprung bikes, and give additional end travel ramp (spring and damping). I carefully chose the air spring that is spec'd on the bike, and crafted a leverage rate that gave me the desired end travel wheel rate I was looking for. Compared to a 6POINT, the bike has a similar feel through 70% travel, then ramps up about 13% more by the end. All in all I have been really happy with the performance of the bike. I'd like to see more people building them up with lightweight wheels and components as a long legged trail bike. The Firebird really shines under power, I would not hesitate to ride one as a trail bike at 29-32 lbs.

[eldoctor]

Sorry, it is a Firebird thread, but Dave, could you explain us the difference among the 08' RP23 and the 09' RP23 HV riding a Mach 5?
Thanks.

[derby]

Originally Posted by _dw

One of the things that I concentrated on with the Firebird was eliminating the "hammock" that you can feel in some air sprung bikes, and give additional end travel ramp (spring and damping). I carefully chose the air spring that is spec'd on the bike, and crafted a leverage rate that gave me the desired end travel wheel rate I was looking for. Compared to a 6POINT, the bike has a similar feel through 70% travel, then ramps up about 13% more by the end. All in all I have been really happy with the performance of the bike. I'd like to see more people building them up with lightweight wheels and components as a long legged trail bike. The Firebird really shines under power, I would not hesitate to ride one as a trail bike at 29-32 lbs.

Dave, which shock is spec'ed for the Firebird? RP23? Is it OEM custom tuned?

I hope it's a large can spec. Because they are closer to the rate of a coil shock. I like coil for the added fine tuning possible and quick trail side preload adjustment, and better braking traction and directional control downhill than I ever could find on the Mojo with 3 air shocks I tired.

BTW, Dave, for my '02 Vanilla RC on my Mojo I tried at least 4 coil weights and settled on one about 100# lower than calculators recommend for my weight, and usually about 4 turns preload depending on the sag desired for the ride. I think the lighter spring plus extra preload compensates in large part for the mid-travel ramp up difference to the Float shock speced. It did bottom rather easily when the RC was stock, but using 2 or more clicks in compression adjustment to reduce bottoming became spikey. PUSH tuning has made it bottomless in feel landing the biggest jumps I'm growing in comfort doing. And with the PUSH'd RC I normally run 2 - 3 turns in compression but can firm compression many more clicks without it getting harsh to avoid bottoming at times I lower the sag more to slack the handling. With 650b wheels I'm able to use 25% and deeper sag I want without the very frequent pedal strikes I suffered before with 1/2 inch lower BB height using 26" wheels, plus rolling rough trail is much nicer. I know you think I'd get more mid travel traction with a stock RP23 on my bike, but that hasn't been my experience, perhaps due to my softer spring with additional preload coil tune. Every air spring shock was much dicier on rocky downhill. Thanks for leading the great advance in suspension!

[kenbentit]

You can get the Firebird with the RP23 or DHX 5 air shocks. We've tried the DHX 5 coil as well but I'm not sure what the verdict was for speccing that.

[derby]

Originally Posted by derby

Dave, which shock is spec'ed for the Firebird? RP23? Is it OEM custom tuned?

Pivot replied: The Firebird suspension is designed for the DHX-A or alternatively an OEM only RP23 "XV" (an RP23 with the same air can as the DHX-A), and is compatible with coil.

[_dw]

Originally Posted by derby

Pivot replied: The Firebird suspension is designed for the DHX-A or alternatively an OEM only RP23 "XV" (an RP23 with the same air can as the DHX-A), and is compatible with coil.

Did you get that backwards Ray? or maybe the guys at Pivot did. I'll make sure I take care of that.

I definitely designed the bike around the 09RP23 XV and the DHX Air at the same time, the two shocks use the same air can and have the same compression ratio. To my knowledge there is only one air can available, a small air can would be REALLY rampy!

I personally prefer the RP23, as the bike just does not need the end travel ramp of the DHX Air. In my opinion, it's an extra chunk of weight that doesn't really need to be there. I've tested with both, and I think that the bike performs great with the RP23. You really have to do something ridiculous to bottom it out, and fade is no different between the two shocks. You could definitely run a coil on the bike if you wanted to.

[derby]

Originally Posted by _dw

Did you get that backwards Ray? or maybe the guys at Pivot did. I'll make sure I take care of that.

I definitely designed the bike around the 09RP23 XV and the DHX Air at the same time, the two shocks use the same air can and have the same compression ratio. To my knowledge there is only one air can available, a small air can would be REALLY rampy!

I personally prefer the RP23, as the bike just does not need the end travel ramp of the DHX Air. In my opinion, it's an extra chunk of weight that doesn't really need to be there. I've tested with both, and I think that the bike performs great with the RP23. You really have to do something ridiculous to bottom it out, and fade is no different between the two shocks. You could definitely run a coil on the bike if you wanted to.

The Foxracingshox web site doesn't mention any "XV" model of the RP23, and RP23's normally have smaller air cans than the DHX-A as far as I'm aware of, so I reasoned that "XV" must be a large volume can only available for OEM to match a DHX-A suspension design.

Pivot simply said that either Fox air shock could be used, or coil. And use of the DHX-A would be helpful if needing the volume adjuster to increase bottom travel ramp up.

Anyway I'm glad to hear the Firebird is designed for a larger volume air can than the previous RP23's and would leverage well for coil - since I'm such a "coil snob"! And maybe with this much travel I'd finally be just as happy with air, the 6Point did feel mighty fine when demoing at Bootleg.