CO Epic - what's mandatory? Whaddaya want?

[MikeMac]

Greetings Endurophiles - got a question for you to consider;

We've spent a fair bit of time looking at BC, TR, La Ruta - just about anything relevant really. Each has different attributes and flavor. Each also has a unique pricing tier with the full spectrum of offferings. Understanding that at the basic level you're paying for necessities and that your entry fee correlates directly to the event producer's ability to control these costs, what do you consider "necessary" to a 5-6 stage, 250 (or so) mile event?

I/we would like your opinions. The search for an absolute truth in terms of what's necessary is a bit of a fool's errand. There are many truths, each told from a different perspective. I want to hear yours. If you can, please make a list with 2 subcategories: "Have to haves" and "Nice to haves". Put your line items (and rationale if you have the inclination and time) under each.

Here are a few things to get the conversation started - put them on your list (or not) as you see fit!

Massage
Coffee
Breakfast
Dinner
Reserved camping
Shuttle transportation to/from DIA
Tents provided
RV's provided
Beer provided
General mechanical services
Private mechanical services
Course mix (singletrack/paved/unpaved)
Bike assembly
Bike shipping

What we're trying to find out is is there's a market for a more analog 'comfortable jeans' style race, or if there's a need for a fully blown out version...or even something in-between (my personal guess.) This race will also be small in comparison to its counterparts and will probably always stay that way. 300-350 competitors total with solos (accepted by resume) and teams combined.

Thanks in advance. I'm pretty curious to hear your thoughts.

Mike

[sean salach]

i won't be competing, so i guess my input can be taken with a grain of salt, but i would say, of what was listed, these should definitely be in place:

Massage
Coffee
Breakfast
Dinner
Reserved camping
Shuttle transportation to/from DIA
Beer provided
General mechanical services
Private mechanical services
Course mix (singletrack/paved/unpaved)


i could see maybe having tent rental, or even moreso cheap tent sales, but i wouldn't think lending tents to racers freee of charge would be worthwhile. they will get beat up pretty bad and stink by the end of the race. same with rv's, maybe have a few available for rental.

i would really try to limit the pavement if you can, but would rather see pavement than horrible trail.

racers should be able to figure out bike assembly and shipping(to/fro the event) themselves.

[teamdicky]

You know I want in.

Here are my minimum requirements:
Coffee

Oatmeal (breakfast)

Pasta (dinner)

Tents provided (it's nice to not have to set up after a hard day)

Singletrack is sweet, but I know it's hard to link up a mess of it. Not to mention sending a mess of riders right into 50 miles of singletrack means a lot of folks do the conga line thing for a long miserable time. Seen it, hated it. I'd rather ride pavement for a few miles to break things up if possible. This from a SS'er who will lose time on any flat paved surface.

Pavement's OK if you need it to get where you're going

Shuttles are always sweet (seems like some promoters of these stage things don't give a rat's)

Tent city is nice before/after race if possible (Ironbike in Italy does this) Keeps logisitics down for the rider.

Simple aid stations (nothing fancy electrolyte drink/cookies/bananas/boiled potatoes?)
Well marked course

Place to wash bikes after each stage

Showers available

Nice to have:
Mech service for those that need it/shops available to get certain items in the event of failure (bars. posts, etc.)

Don't NEED beer (nice if it's around, I'll drink too much if it's free)

I don't need a "RACE" specific gear bag (I could see where you have a max weight/size)

I've seen too many promoters sweat things that don't seem to matter, and lose track of the important stuff (how 'bout one shower for all the male racers to share after a stage????) Seems like building a reputation comes second to marketing sometimes. Make the racers happy, and they'll come back.

I think you'll find plenty of "jeans comfortable" type folks anxious to do this race. I've talked to plenty of people in the last few years that said "If only there were a stage race in the US....". Not everybody has the funds to travel all over the world to do this kinda stuff.
I'll bring a tent and a gym bag full of Nutter Butters if that's what it takes.

Ahhhhhhh...I gotta go, but my brain is swimming in a pool of comments. The commuter meeting (bar) is calling my name.

[frejwilk]

Originally Posted by MavSports

I want to hear yours. If you can, please make a list with 2 subcategories: "Have to haves" and "Nice to haves". Put your line items (and rationale if you have the inclination and time) under each.

Here are a few things to get the conversation started - put them on your list (or not) as you see fit!

Massage
Coffee
Breakfast
Dinner
Reserved camping
Shuttle transportation to/from DIA
Tents provided
RV's provided
Beer provided
General mechanical services
Private mechanical services
Course mix (singletrack/paved/unpaved)
Bike assembly
Bike shipping

What we're trying to find out is is there's a market for a more analog 'comfortable jeans' style race, or if there's a need for a fully blown out version...or even something in-between (my personal guess.) This race will also be small in comparison to its counterparts and will probably always stay that way. 300-350 competitors total with solos (accepted by resume) and teams combined.

Thanks in advance. I'm pretty curious to hear your thoughts.

Mike

Well, these type of events are usually out of reach for me, but since you're asking...

All of the above items would be on the indifferent list for me. Well, beer would certainly be nice to have. None of them are necessary, and given the choice I wouldn't pay extra for them. What would be necessary is a reasonable size container shuttled from camp to camp for those who'd like to do things (cook, set up, etc.) themselves. I think one duffel type bag and large rubbermaid container per racer would be reasonable. For people who don't want to deal with food, I would prefer to see vendors. Let the racers decide what to spend their money on food wise. I would however put simple aid stations as mentioned above in the nice to have category.

A course mix would be nice to have. A course suitable for racing reflecting the character of the area is what I look for.

The 'accepted by resume' comment is interesting. Will the most qualified racers get first dibs? Or is there a lottery type system with only qualified racers getting in? Will racers need a NORBA license for this?

The Firecracker 50 is a great event. I'm sure this one will be too. Good luck.

FW

[SlowerThenSnot]

Originally Posted by frejwilk

Well, these type of events are usually out of reach for me, but since you're asking...

All of the above items would be on the indifferent list for me. Well, beer would certainly be nice to have. None of them are necessary, and given the choice I wouldn't pay extra for them. What would be necessary is a reasonable size container shuttled from camp to camp for those who'd like to do things (cook, set up, etc.) themselves. I think one duffel type bag and large rubbermaid container per racer would be reasonable. For people who don't want to deal with food, I would prefer to see vendors. Let the racers decide what to spend their money on food wise. I would however put simple aid stations as mentioned above in the nice to have category.

A course mix would be nice to have. A course suitable for racing reflecting the character of the area is what I look for.

The 'accepted by resume' comment is interesting. Will the most qualified racers get first dibs? Or is there a lottery type system with only qualified racers getting in? Will racers need a NORBA license for this?

The Firecracker 50 is a great event. I'm sure this one will be too. Good luck.

FW

I'm pretty down with what Fred and Dicky have to say... Tent city would be nice at the end of the day ect... But I guess i'm used to the self supported thing so would some aid stations ect...

A mix of fire road and single track would be awesome as well even some pavement is fine by me just keep the pavement less then 30%

I guess i'd be more into a bare bones lower entry fee event vs. being pampered and it costing too much! That being said super excited for this! I won't have to fly or anything for this!

Dicky I do think we need to duo fixedgear this though!

[KERKOVEJ]

This event really, REALLY interests me. Heck, I made it my "A" race for the year and I am not even sure it's going to happen or not.

I am curious as to how you plan to run the event? Are you planning on starting in a different locale every day? Or, for example, starting in Breckenridge everyday? I bring this up, cause this would effect my choice for camping versus staying at a lodge/condo. It would also effect services needed in this race.

Eitherway, here are some things I would like to see included in the entry fee...
Dinner
General Mechanic Service and ability to buy minor small parts (tubes, chains, etc)
Course that is a mixture of everything CO....singletrack, fireroads, little bit of pavement
Bike wash/lube station

Personally, keep it simple, safe, epic, and inexpensive. There is a reason I have not done LaRuta, Trans-Rockies, or BC Bike race.....the entry fee. Simple as that.

[LyNx]

I never done one of these, but was looking and I think that TD nailed it - that's about what you need the rest is luxury.

[mikesee]

Originally Posted by MavSports

Massage
Coffee
Breakfast
Dinner
Reserved camping
Shuttle transportation to/from DIA
Tents provided
RV's provided
Beer provided
General mechanical services
Private mechanical services
Course mix (singletrack/paved/unpaved)
Bike assembly
Bike shipping

Out of all of these, the first thing that matters to me is the course. Make it rideable for a good solid xc rider--in other words, no more than ~30 minutes of crazy steep hike-a-bike per day, assuming 6+ hours of riding per day. Make it 85+% singletrack, preferably alpine and skinny and swoopy and fun.

That right there is 98% of what's really important.

Everything else? Meh. We're adults, we'll figure it out.

MC

[Rockin]

Originally Posted by KERKOVEJ

Eitherway, here are some things I would like to see included in the entry fee...
Dinner
General Mechanic Service and ability to buy minor small parts (tubes, chains, etc)
Course that is a mixture of everything CO....singletrack, fireroads, little bit of pavement
Bike wash/lube station

Personally, keep it simple, safe, epic, and inexpensive. There is a reason I have not done LaRuta, Trans-Rockies, or BC Bike race.....the entry fee. Simple as that.

This would be my list plus gear transport of X pounds for my tent, etc. Simple = better. Sleeping in the back of my car would be OK too.

[TheNeil]

First off, I have been thinking about this race since I read about it on Velonews, and am already planning next years schedule around it and trying to figure where I can save enough money for the entry.

My main suggestion is that I would like to see a (slighty) larger solo catagory in the race. I understand the logistic part of the duo catagory, but if Costa Rica can do it, we should be able to right? (I also realize that we do live in the land of lawsuits so there is a lot more liability for the promoter here than in CR). Being relatively new to endurance racing, I don't have a polished resume besides a shiny Leadville buckle here, a twelve hr race there, and one Firecracker under the belt (as well as a handful of 24 hr races on teams), but with that being said, I have the skills necessary for backcountry survival from years of backpacking and backcountry skiing and I know how to fix the bike from years of racing. The main thing for me wanting to ride solo is that I don't ride with a lot of people that would consider this race; and I would feel bad that after they shelled out the money, they could possibly DNF because of me breaking my bike beyond repair or me getting sick or hurt.

I think the original idea of the Monday-Friday schedule is great, originally I was a little skeptic about it, but after thinking about the logistics, even with me living in CO, it just makes sense.

As for creature comforts, this is where it gets tough to say what is necessary while keeping costs low.

Lodging Options (i.e. a tent option and a hotel/condo option). This also depends on if the start/finish is in a different area every day. A tent city would be cool if you could get logistics worked out and a large enough area to accommodate 300 people (easier said than done in CO). Tents provided only if it changes day to day (logistically I think it would be easier for you to move the same tent than 200 different ones).

Gear transport-if the start/finish moves. Would probably work better to have supplied bags to keep it easier on you, if it doesn't fit in the bag, it doesn't get moved theory.

A food option. This can be just an option if the start/finish are in areas that have plenty of food choices (i.e. Breck). If food isn't close, it should be included.

Course selection. Of course we all want as much singletrack as possible, but logistically know that isn't entirely possible. I don't mind dirt or even paved roads, but I would prefer not to climb for an hour to pop out on a paved road and loose all my elevation in 5 minutes. and I would prefer long loops, and point-to-point rather than multiple small loops.

Small aid stations. H20, electrolyte drink, and a few snacks, it doesn't have to be deluxe.

I would think the rest are creature comforts, maybe additional services.
I bet a couple massage therapists wouldn't mind setting up a booth at the end of each day.
Same with a bike shop, there are many great shops up in that neck of the woods that could possibly offer mechanical/part service at the start/finish on an as needed basis (they would just need to accept credit cards).
Travel to and from the airport seems like a logistical nightmare (as if the race itself isn't?). There seems to be a enough shuttle services available during the winter, maybe you get one of them to be a sponsor and give discounts to anyone looking for that. seems like there would be a need.


Ultimately, I would like the Comfortable Jeans style race, I don't need (can't afford) all the All-the-bells-and-whistles version.

Thanks for listening, I truly think it is rad that you gave us a voice in the process. Keep up the hard work.

Thanks again,
The Neil

[alizbee]

Originally Posted by mikesee

Out of all of these, the first thing that matters to me is the course. Make it rideable for a good solid xc rider--in other words, no more than ~30 minutes of crazy steep hike-a-bike per day, assuming 6+ hours of riding per day. Make it 85+% singletrack, preferably alpine and skinny and swoopy and fun.

That right there is 98% of what's really important.

Everything else? Meh. We're adults, we'll figure it out.

MC

I agree 100%. Make the course the main attraction. That is the only "Have to have" I would put on the list.

The other things are nice. It would be great knowing that after each stage I can count on a hot meal. Variety is key with that. Pasta is great, but not for 6 days running.

The bottom line for me is the bottom line. Entry fees touching 2 Grand + travel are just not feasible. So I'd rather see a lower cost, lower comfort race.

I am also turned off by lottery systems, or races that make it harder than needful to get into. My life is to spur of the moment to register for a race 9 months in advance. But I do see the reasons these occur. I just don't pay much attention to the races that use them.

As MC said, and I quoted though, the course is king. Racers will put up with a lot of hassle as long as the course is outstanding. Hiking for 4 hours a day, or grinding up pavement or dirt roads for endless miles is not ideal. Some of that is inevitable. But If the course leaves racers out of breath and awe inspired, the rest is just gravy.

On a smaller scale than what you are planning, the VT125 was, I think the perfect race. Wonderful course, fully stocked aid stations, smiling volunteers, clear course markings, and an entry fee that nobody could argue with. Now, a free stage race may not be realistic, but I think the Vapor Trail organizers had the right idea behind their motivation and execution.


Good luck in this. And thanks for asking for our input.

[leadvegas]

Its great that you're looking for input this way. I did the BC Bike Race this year so I think I can chime in on a few things. Since we live in a bike racers heaven (Colorado) I assume that a lot of the racers will be from the area (Mountain States). Tent camping is a must with them set up on arrival. Most of the stages in BC ended out each town's Recreation Center or equivalent. This worked great for fields to camp on, secure indoor bike storage, bathrooms/showers, and sometimes pools and hot tubs! About the food. The first issue we had was not getting breakfast early enough. People need time to digest before riding 60+ miles. They had a great selection of food everyday. Each town had different people catering which was great because we got to meet locals from these cool towns. If thats not logical you could have a good pasta bar with different pastas and sauces etc. as for some of the other things...
Massage- have available for extra
Coffee- must have dark roasts
Breakfast- coffee, pancakes, eggs, cereal, yogurt, fruit
Dinner- local caterers or good selection of food so its not too repetitive
Reserved camping- tents for racers, close by camping for supporters, including rv/trailer areas
Shuttle transportation to/from DIA- small extra charge
Tents provided- yes and set up upon completion of stage, racers can break down before leaving each day
RV's provided- adds a huge cost for both racers and organizers. limits space for others and choices for base camps, but is a nice plus for those willing to pay
Beer provided- Agreed
General mechanical services- great way to include local bike shops in the event
Private mechanical services- would be good to have a sponsoring shop travelling with the event
Course mix (singletrack/paved/unpaved)- road starts then as much singletrack as possible, preferably on trails that can handle 300+ riders in six hours time, there are some great fire roads in Colorado
Bike assembly- if needed, could be preformed by sponsoring mechanics
Bike shipping- riders should be able getting their bikes to the race

there is a lot to think about for a race like this but the USA needs something like it and Colorado is the state to do it in.

[Loudpawlz]

Originally Posted by MavSports

Have to haves

being a resident I'd like to see....

Really, really, really, really good clean up - No left over race/racer garbage left on the course at all.

A portion of the entry fee donated to local trail advocacy/maintenance groups.

[MikeMac]

Originally Posted by Loudpawlz

being a resident I'd like to see....

Really, really, really, really good clean up - No left over race/racer garbage left on the course at all.

A portion of the entry fee donated to local trail advocacy/maintenance groups.

I'm going to address this one first simply because it hits close to home. There ARE some iffy promoters out there so I want to make a clear statement about the implication that we may not have our hearts or priorities in the right place.

First off, I'm a resident too. And a rider. And someone who hates to see garbage left by some racer with an overly-developed sense of entitlement. I've also rolled up my sleeves and gotten down into the advocacy trenches. Whether with our environmental education and stewardship program MTB Little League (affectionately known by Jeff and I as 'The Black Hole that Eats Time), building trails around Summit, serving on the board of the local IMBA chapter or running point for said chapter on more than a few fundraising events. I've put in the time - more than you could probably imagine.

Garbage makes me angry. We had a garbage problem in the first few years after The Firecracker became successful and we were aghast at what some riders considered appropriate behavior. It still gets me worked up many years later. So we reached out to them. We told them how dear our backcountry was to us and how violated we felt that they considered it their trash can...all in the name of not getting some Clif Shot crud on their shorts. We created a standing rule that anyone observed disposing of trash on course would be summarily DQ'd. Forever.

We also met folks halfway by placing trash cans on course in strategic locations and telling our customers 'just get it close, we'll get it in and lug it out'. The results were overwhelmingly positive and we haven't had much of an issue since. We'll adopt a similar stance regarding litter. In order to catch the errant waterbottle or two we'll also have sweepers charged with cleaning up. We'll also donate where appropriate.

(Getting off my soapbox now...)

...as far as course goes, you guys are surprising me a bit. "Less than 30% pavement"? No "30-minute hike-a-bikes"? "No fireroad descents after an hour of climbing"?

You guys are going to have to raise your standards. If we get this off the ground rest assured the course will be king.

Unfortunately, that dictates that we will have a field limit in place. I'm fairly certain that without one we won't get the thing off the ground. Besides, it really is the right course of action - if we maintain our stance on quality of course then we need to hold the line on numbers. Good singletrack can really take a beating attempting to accommodate a Chequamegon-sized herd. And a big part of this exercise is for the glorification of the network in Colorado in order to insure its survival.

Without falling into the Nick Saban trap of equating what we're trying to accomplish with some of the tragedy that we've seen in the past decade, there's a great line by Springsteen in a song he wrote in protest of the Iraq war. I may not have it exactly right, but he said something like, "what if what you do to survive kills the thing you love?" It would be sadly ironic that if in the attempt to raise awareness of some of the at-risk trails here in Colorado we end up mangling them beyond recognition.

So yeah. Maybe I'm not really off my soapbox after all.

The course will be good. The field will be small. Litterbugs will be shot and buried (after they've been forcefed the evidence of course).

Keep writing. We're listening.

MM

[kretzel]

I also did BCBR last year and had the time of my life...but with impending career change and need for a new teammate, it will likely fall off the '08 plan. So this race has me very interested, most likely as a soloist. Here's my list-

Necessities, in no particular order:
- gear transport (limiting weight & volume fine, bags not req'd) - in fact at BCBR they told us the bags would be much smaller than they were & I left some things at home I would have liked so accurate limits are good
- meals - more interested in breakfast/dinner than super equipped pits on the course since it is not that hard to carry calories for 6 hrs of racing, just need water at the pits. Quality of ingredients more important than anything being fancy, I can live on fresh fruit, muesli, whole milk & cold cuts for a long time as long as there is plenty of it.
- hot showers
- great course, well marked, with accurate distances to aid stations
- coffee.
- bike wash with minimal tech support/cleaning supplies.

Darn close to necessary:
- tents provided

Nice to have (and I'd perhaps be willing to pay extra for):
- transport from airport
- tents set up for me

Indifferent about:
- massage
- beer
- race swag
- prizes
- bike assembly / shipping

As a counter to some of the comments about going really minimalist, I really don't want to do a lot of planning on my own, even though I could. If I have to start figuring out meals & logistics from 1000 miles away the planning effort goes through the roof and becomes a bigger barrier than the money. At that point, the event becomes just a series of long XC races strung together, not a packaged stage race experience, IMO. Plus you risk losing the communal feel in which everyone lives together for a week because everyone makes their own arrangements & scatters after they cross the finish line each day. The "summer camp" feel of everyone living & dining together is half the fun. I can see though why more local riders might be ok with this, esp since it could reduce cost a lot, but it would really diminsh my willingness to travel a long way to participate.

Cheers,

[MikeMac]

Great insight Karl - thanks. I think that we could fill the field with 'local racers' and go super-minimalist, but the question is, do we want to? I'm not sure that we do.

Some well articulated food for thought in your post. Again, thanks.

Mike

[frejwilk]

Originally Posted by kretzel

As a counter to some of the comments about going really minimalist, I really don't want to do a lot of planning on my own, even though I could. If I have to start figuring out meals & logistics from 1000 miles away the planning effort goes through the roof and becomes a bigger barrier than the money. At that point, the event becomes just a series of long XC races strung together, not a packaged stage race experience, IMO. Plus you risk losing the communal feel in which everyone lives together for a week because everyone makes their own arrangements & scatters after they cross the finish line each day. The "summer camp" feel of everyone living & dining together is half the fun. I can see though why more local riders might be ok with this, esp since it could reduce cost a lot, but it would really diminsh my willingness to travel a long way to participate.

Cheers,

I think Karl has really hit on a key point to this discussion. It seems the word ‘experience’ is what we’re all coming back to. My personal opinion is the big popular stage races are catering to folks looking for more of an ‘experience’ than a race. That’s not a knock on those participating. In fact two of the most serious racers I know have been doing quite well in, and enjoying these stage races. My point is that the promoters of the popular races are choosing services and pricing based on someone who is looking for an ‘experience of a lifetime’ so to speak. I’m looking for a race. My guess is that many of those voicing concerns over amenities and pricing are in the same boat.

For myself at least, the draw of an event like this would certainly be a communal feel. I wouldn’t want to see folks being shuttled away to their own little world between stages. Yes, we should camp together. No, we don’t need someone to set up our tent. Yes, there should be community. But I don’t get how included meals, massages, or mechanical help are the best way to achieve that one. Everyone should live and eat together, but make or do that stuff on your own. Let everyone be in the same situation and have the communal feel grow out of the challenge, rather than shared griping about how the chicken was overdone or the showers were too cold! There are already plenty of excellent tour companies out there providing five days of fully catered, social, top quality mountain biking tours in Colorado.

I don’t think anyone is looking for ‘homecourt advantage’ in entry fees. Rather, I think some folks will jump at an opportunity to speak up for a style of event they’d like to see happen. They were asked - here at least. Ironically, what I would consider as minimalist endurance racing already exists quite successfully. I would also like to see something between the two current ideas emerge. I'm starting to gather that my idea of 'comfortable jeans' is more 'thrift store dockers'! Once again, no knock on anyone else's preferences here, just thoughts.

Thanks again Maverick for soliciting comments.

FW

[LyNx]

I'd just like to state here and now that this is something that would attract me to a race and make me enjoy it. In doing the Laramie and Leadville I could not believe the amount of Gel packets, water bottles etc that people just threw about the course and the time it would have taken to clean all this up. I personally kept all my gel packs/wrappers I used until I hit an aid station and then dumped them, but OMG I guess I wasn't one of them there hot guns going for the win so I had the time - This really Pi$$ed me off to no end that people couldn't also do this.

Lookin forward to reading and hearing more of this event.

Originally Posted by MavSports

I'm going to address this one first simply because it hits close to home. There ARE some iffy promoters out there so I want to make a clear statement about the implication that we may not have our hearts or priorities in the right place............................................. .................................................. .....
Keep writing. We're listening.

MM

[teamdicky]

Originally Posted by frejwilk

No, we don’t need someone to set up our tent. Yes, there should be community. But I don’t get how included meals, massages, or mechanical help are the best way to achieve that one. Everyone should live and eat together, but make or do that stuff on your own.

I'd set up my own tent if I had to, but it sure is nice after a rainy day in the saddle to come "home" to some dry personal space. Like I said, if I have to bring my own/set it up I'd do it.

Food is a sticking point. Logistically for an out of towner this creates just one more nightmare trying to supply your own. We already come in loaded for a five day race where parts availability can be questionable. So we have tires, tubes, and all sorts of whatnot in our baggage that weighs close to 70-80 pounds. Sure we can knock it down, but not all of us have ultra light camping equipment. Go buy some? Sure, add a few hundred dollars to what it takes to pull this off personally I guess.

I know I could just get the food when I get there, but that adds one more thing that an outta towner has to do before the race starts. Then there is the issue of food storage. Do they have critters in CO? I know at TR and BCBR we were told to NEVER have food in our tent, unless we wanted a visit from a furry friend in the middle of the night. It seems like it would be a PITA for the promoters to have to store the food for 300 humans every night... or there's a bunch of food tied in trees I guess. Maybe there is no critter problem out there. Dunno.

If the stages finish in small towns all this is moot. I'd be fine foraging for food in a local town. Does cut down on the community feel though.

Gotta say Karl nailed it. One of the best parts is the community. Everybody sacked out in similar conditions every night and getting their grub on together. The last night of La Ruta is such a strange affair as all the racers get strewn about in separate hotels so the whole "community thing" is shut down before the race is over, and honestly the hanging out part was the best part of that race (certainly not the course).

Dang, now I gotta go to work. Stupid priorities interfering with my endless babble.

[teamdicky]

Doh, misplaced topic.

[teamdicky]

On the topic of tents:
I think TR used local volunteers (Boy Scouts and such) to get their tents up. BCBR had a crew that often ran behind. It is hard to pack up a few hundred tents, move them to the new location, and get them set up. I did like the first come/first served tent arrangement over the assigned tents. Seemed to make sense. I remember waiting in the rain for my assigned tent to be assembled while others sat empty.
Wonder if some company that makes cheap tents (BCBR &TR were hardly using North Face or Mtn Hardware) like Coleman would swing a deal on 150 tents in exchange for sponsorship. Never seen it done at the other races, but it seem like it would make sense.

Can't...stop...streams...of...thought......

[KERKOVEJ]

Originally Posted by teamdicky

On the topic of tents:
Wonder if some company that makes cheap tents (BCBR &TR were hardly using North Face or Mtn Hardware) like Coleman would swing a deal on 150 tents in exchange for sponsorship. Never seen it done at the other races, but it seem like it would make sense.

Maybe Kelty? They are in Boulder, and already have their stake in the ground with a few local mountain bike teams. Maybe they would be interested in growing their involvement in the mountain bike scene/lifestyle.

Just a thought...

[teamdicky]

Originally Posted by KERKOVEJ

Maybe Kelty? They are in Boulder, and already have their stake in the ground with a few local mountain bike teams. Maybe they would be interested in growing their involvement in the mountain bike scene/lifestyle.

Just a thought...

Good one...
keep 'em coming meter man.

[zrm]

Mike,

Lot's of good comments here. It seems to me that if the race organization can take care of the most basic logistics such as shuttling the racers gear between venues and the racers themselves if it's not point to point most folks would be happy. For me this would be huge and take a big load of plannig off my shoulders. If you provide food get someone like Mona (OK maybe not Mona....) who is a racer and knows what kind of food will work for racers to plan and cater the menus. I'd also think about making it pay as you go, not part of the entry fee, that way they have the option of either going out on the town of preparing their own.
Having tents provided and put up and taken down for the riders, especially if the starts are early would be nice. On the other hand I dont think it would be that big of a deal for the racers to provide their own tents and be responsible for set up and tear down as long as the race provides transportation site to site. Look into how rides like ride the Rockies handle this logistic, they have it down pat!
For course, well you know the kind of race course I like to design. I suppose that if the concept is town to town you will have only so many options on how to make that work, A loop per day out of various communities will give you more options, but personally, I think the idea of town to town is pretty cool. Perhaps a mix of types? Think original Fall classic, different types of courses that test different skills. I think throwing a puker hill climb (Humbug!) in there would be cool as well as a course that lets guys who are better at pushing big gears do well would be fun to throw into the mix of the usual (and usually unavoidable) Colorado XC courses that favor climbers. I think as long as they are fun and race well, most folks will be happy.
Other stuff like showers and a place to wash bikes would be to me important. Cleaning your body and bike are in the essential catagory for me.
All the other stuff is nice, but I wouldn't devote a lot of your resources to it. If a local massage group want to set up as well as any other vendors but I'd say just set aside a space for them and let them do their own thing. For stuff like airport transport maybe set up a deal with one of the airport shuttle/taxi companies where the racers get a deal but it's their respomnsibility to make the reservation. I'd call CME and ask them what kind of ideas they might have.

Give me a call or email if there is anything I can do to help!

Mike Z

[jeffscott]

Havn't seen the two most important and crucial things.

ORGANIZATION
and
COMMUNICATION

[teamdicky]

Originally Posted by zrm

I'd also think about making it pay as you go, not part of the entry fee, that way they have the option of either going out on the town of preparing their own.

I think "pay as you go" would be hard to plan for. It would certainly put some stress on the system if it were raining around dinner time and 50-100 more racers than expected showed up with a ten dollar bill because they just didn't feel like cooking. Having two options (food/no food) at registration time might work out better. I know one guy who couldn't eat gluten, so he couldn't do the meal thing if he wanted to (TR offered the race w/o meal option).
Nothing worse than not enough food to go around. Ask people who did TR 2007 how much they liked that.

[nepbug]

This is so intriguing to me, my excitement level is a little too high to be sitting in my cubicle right now.

Must Haves:
Course, good mix of singletrack and fire road, minimize the pavement (I don't mind having some, but the instant I roll on it I hate myself for choosing tires with knobs). Also. a good mix of above and below treeline. Town to town course has more appeal than loops. My definition of a hike a bike is much different on day 4 of a race compared to day 1 of a race, this is probably pretty universal, but I've never done stage races, just straight through perpetual motion stuff.
Gear Transport, assuming this is a town to town and not loops.
Water Source near start/finish, even if we have to treat/filter
Reserved Camping, how can you feel like you're in a band of gypsies if everyone scatters to the wind after the day's race?

Nice to Haves:
Bike Wash, probably the best "nice to have"
Meals, people eat on different schedules and every provided meal in a race I've done has always been so-so, not enough food (we're racers for gosh sake), and I always wonder about the ingredients used (it's amazing the internal battle that goes on in my head over whether that piece of garlic bread was made using margarine or real butter). Don't forget dessert.
Showers, even cold is fine, it keeps the lines short and nobody takes longer than necessary.

Beer is completely not a selling point to me, I might have one on the last day, but if you read the boards regularly you'd think every rider is just a bike theft away from being Homer Simpson, especially singlespeeders.

I think it would be a good idea to end the race on a Saturday and hold a 1 day event (on a different course) then as well. This would pump up the finish line crowd and spread the word about the stage race more.

Maybe make one of the stages with a twist in which you will be guaranteed to be riding through sunrise/sunset and will add in some night riding.

For 6 hours I don't need aid stations, but I like the idea of trash cans on course, another little marker to make sure you're on the right path.

Lastly, make someway for racers to communicate on your website (not everyone is on MTBR). This race will probably attract a lot of locals and we can coordinate carpools or even pick racers up at the airport.

[IttyBittyBetty]

Where are all the gurlz? I know there are others who are contemplating this race (you know who you are!!!). Anyhoo, I am thinking of doing this race, with my BF ssperl so we won't tap into the limited solo category. I think our resumes are more than adequate. We've done a fair bit of solo 24 races, the Laramie Enduro, FC 50, KTR, etc. I've also done expedition adventure racing. I too have avoided some of the other mentioned stage races because of the cost. Based on my experience and my desire for a lower cost race experience, here are my thoughts:

Massage - Not necessary. If logistics make it feasible, having massage therapists who come out and offer their services for a fee would be nice. As mentioned above, it would help if they can take credit cards.

Coffee - Absolutely necessary! And it should be GOOD coffee, nice and dark. Also need coffee accoutrements like half and half (none of that powdered crap) and sweeteners for those who doctor up their coffee.

Breakfast - I'm local (Boulder) so for me it wouldn't be a big deal to bring my own breakfast. However, food storage while racing might be an issue due to critters, so race organizers would have to have room to store food bins. If breakfast is provided, basics like oatmeal, toast, yogurt and fruit are fine.

Dinner - However, having a group meal provided by the race organizer at the end of each stage would promote racer interaction, which is part of the reason these things are so much fun. Depending on the race format and location(s), perhaps the meals could be provided by sponsors at a reduced rate to the race organizers.

Reserved camping - I like the idea of a tent city that promotes racer interaction and camaraderie. I also like the idea of having the tents set up by volunteers at the end of the day, but this is not necessary.

Tents provided - I have my own tent, but the idea of a sponsor providing tents is also a good one. Perhaps this could be offered for a nominal fee for those need it.


Shuttle transportation to/from DIA - Not necessary for me, so I don't want to have to pay for this service. Perhaps the race organizers can negotiate a special rate with a shuttle company for those racers coming from out of town.

RV's provided - Not necessary. I've found them to be obnoxiously noisy when I'm nearby in a tent, so if there's a tent city, have the RVs off in another area.

Beer provided - Not necessary every day. In fact, I would prefer not to pay for others' consumption of free beer during the race,since I will likely be too wonked to indulge. However, I like the idea of an after-race party where racers can get one or two beers for free then pay extra for more.

General mechanical services - Not necessary for me if I can bring a tool kit or have it available in my nearby vehicle. If the locations are remote or racers will not be able to access theeir own tool kit, having an area under a tent with basic services would be a good idea. Along with this, bike washes are a great addition, unless the course doesn't encounter any mud (this can happen in Colorado!).

Private mechanical services - Having such services is a good idea. They should charge the specific person using the service and accept credit cards if possible.

Course mix (singletrack/paved/unpaved) - Plenty has been said about this. I have no doubt the course will be spectacular!

Bike assembly - Not necessary for me. I've assembled/disassembled my bike in adventure races with my multi tool. Maybe offer as a service for a fee to those who want it.


Bike shipping - Similar to shuttle service, I don't want to have to pay for this since I will be driving. Perhaps the race organizers can provide a secure location up near the race start that out of towners can send their bikes to ahead of time.

Other things:

Us teeny women can get really cold after an intense physical exertion, especially if the riding weather is cold and wet. Having an area set up at the finish area with propane heaters and/or bon-fires so we can warm up would be sweet.

I don't need any men's style T-Shirts that don't fit anyway or any other SWAG for that matter. If such items are donated by sponsors, that's fine, but please don't raise the entry fee to include them.

I suppose showers would be nice, but I've gone days without showering adventure racing it to me they are not necessary.

Bathrooms with sufficient TP are a must!

I understand that certain elements that cost the race organizer money are inevitable, but there seems to be a consensus from folks to eliminate non-essential items. I'm really excited about this race and hope that it can be put together as low cost as possible!

[MikeMac]

You can assume the following as givens:

Great coffee. Dark as your soul variety with all the accoutrements.
Free beer (a staple of all Yeti endeavors)
Well above average organization and communication (I'd say great, but I know better. I can promise that we'll try hard.)

On to the next question: how about categories? What do you like/where is there a need?

MM

PS - TX To Mike Z for chiming in. He's my role model when I feel my self control slipping away. I picture him and his zen-like calm. Then my head explodes anyway.

[jac02000]

After doing a couple of hundies and some staged stuff, here's some comments:

Hundies are fantastic. Just love them.
things liked:
~ SOLO - team stuff stinks... causes more trouble than what it is worth (in house fighting... etc...). I like the fact that the hundies are solo. Just me, my ride and the trail. No need to worry about anything else (i.e. partner has to ... etc...)
~ aid stations. Fantastic variety of treats. need sugar, get sugar. Need
electros, get them. Pretty much everything you ever wanted and can typically
add your own sack if you want it.
~ well marked. Most of the hundies I found are very well organized and marked.
~ great eats. Wide variety of food and plenty of it for hungry bellies.
~ okay entry fee. between 150-200 typically. Affordable with a free shirt too boot and
a beer mug (mindya, I don't drink all that much, but the glass is cool!)
~ diverse trail and terrain. Big climbs, mix of single track and road at the right times.

things disliked:
~ I don't care for those that go over the same terrain more than once. I need some epic
adventure. If I'm gonna drive 8-9 hours, I want some adventure to it. Most of the hundies I
have been to are diverse though.

Stages stuff:
things liked:
~ TR offered a variety of terrain with some fantastic views. BCBR offered some
really neat stuff on the final days (wicked single track). LR offers some great views
with some brutal climbs. Fear factor and thrill factor is what counts for me.
Anyone can piece together miles and miles of fire road. It has to leave a stain on the brain.
Stain on the brain sort of stuff:
a) river crossings
b) wicked bridge crossings
c) single track
d) fast decents
e) variety
~ view and epic. Gotta have some views that say - wow! look at that. Especially after a brutal cimb.
Gotta make that climb worth it in some parts.
BCBR had some hike a bike, but once at the top... amazing view of it all.
LR had some brutal climbs with some wicked views of it all.
TR had some good climbs with some amazing views.
~ right mix of terrain and trail.


things hated:
~ line ups. During race day, everyone wants to get their ride, test their ride and get in the herd. its gotta be easy.
~ hastles - lugging around bags and bikes is painful. Minimize the pain factor.
~ mud fest - I realize mud is hard to get away from. But, over 5km worth of mud just sucks (the type of mud that goes up knee deep)


Others:

i)Massage - should have
ii)Coffee - don't drink it
iii)Breakfast - variety. Must have
iv)Dinner - should have. BCBR and TR has. LR is pretty light in this regard. Except for the final day.

v)Reserved camping - should have variety and options (hotel/tent/RV)
BCBR has tent city (cool community) but could get hotels if wanted, TR has RV and tent, LR has hotels
(hotels have all the home comforts and avoids hastles)
Shuttle transportation to/from DIA - should have from airport. LR does not. Painful at times.
BCBR did not (can be a pain). TR does (stress free).
Should have shuttles to/from start line if required. Easy transportation of bikes and bags is a must!
at the end of a long day people want convience (low pain in the butt factor required).
Tents provided - options
RV's provided - options
vi) Beer provided - don't care. Nice to have if they want it. Locate the destination near small towns if possible.
TR and BCBR do a very good job at promoting tourism (small towns). Should be part of the overall equation.
Governments should offer grants. These races can possibly bring in future tourism dollars.
vii)General mechanical services - should have
viii)Course mix (singletrack/paved/unpaved) - need to disperse the herd at the beginning. LR this year had a mass of people squeezing
through a small orphis. Painful it was. Could have been a better dispersion of the herd front end method.
ix) Bike assembly - day 1. Possibly important.
Bike wash and end of day fix it stations a must. TR has them. BCBR lacked in this area (but did have a bike shop available). LR lacks big time in this area (gotta pay for it all... not many options). At BCBR, some of the towns had bike shops. I used them for the most part (cheaper).
x) Bike shipping - nah. Everyone has different means. transportation to/from airport (options) is important,

additional:
companion - some may wish to bring kids/spouse/wife/hubby etc... should have that option. But, need comforts and tourist things...
something to consider and costs.
This is where the government grants should come in... these people are prime candidates for future tourism dollars.
costs -
i) LR is about 1000USD with option for transport as required. No real end of day meals, but hotels all the way through. Options for the most part.
ii) TR is about 1700Cdn per person (team thing). Meals covered, tent (additional 2000Cdn or so for RV), showers (cold), mostly in small towns (a couple of nights are cold though - in the mountains).
iii) BCBR is about 1800Cdn per person (team thing, I would go again if they made it solo!). Meals covered, tent, showers (cold), mostly in small towns, lots of transport issues as going from island to island. Great views. I didn't mind the boat rides... some did. Unique kind of race. Wide variety of terrain and trails. Last 3-4 days have some pretty neat trails. First couple of days are kind of boring, I heard they are fixing that with more single track and less fire road.
Epic for the most part. The logistics of this race (underlying stuff) has to be enormous. For the first time, it was pretty impressive what they pulled off. Lots of thought went into every detail.


Overall:
~ give people options. But, ensure they know about them. don't overprice the options though. I know everyone wants to make money, but prices have to be reasonable.
~ organization a must. people don't want hasltes (low pain in the azz factor) after racing all day. people just want to chill after a race.
~ food. Important. People will eat anything during and after a race. But, there is that little cell in the head that says afterwards - man, that sucked or hey... that food was just tasty etc...
~ place of rest. Important. Snoring. Community. and comforts are important. Toilets! line ups suck in the morning.
~ communiction - people gotta know what they are doing. Racing can be stressful enough. To much preparation is a pain. Let them know what to expect and when. Forums are a good thing. TR has them. BCBR didn't really have them. LR didn't really have them.

Look forward to seeing how this stage race comes to light (from idea to concept). If its solo, I'll be there!

[barrows]

Must haves:

Breakfast, and dinner
Tent city, no RVs, they are overkill
adequate showers and bike wash
gear transport for pt. to pt. racing
I am sure the course will be great (CO resident here)
Attempt to schedule stages to end before afternoon T-storms

Nice to have:

Massage for a (discounted) fee
mechanical support
medical support at finishes

Unnecessary:

on course feeds (50-60 mile stages in CO mountains can be self supported)
this is adventure racing, lets make it adventurous

[fastmtnbiker33w]

I didn't read all the posts, so my comments may be repetitious.

A tent city with an RV section for those of us who own RV's would be great. Power and sewer are not necessary, but access to filling up water tanks would be nice. Info on nearby dumpstations would be of service to the support person driving the RV.

Good on course aid stations. With cyto, bars, bananas, etc.

Wash stations for bikes near tent city.

[x-ker]

I can't really chime in about the logistics of stage racing (as I have yet to do one), but I will mention one thing that annoys me from some of the endurance events I've been in.

Why does it always seem like the course climbs up some sweet technical singletrack (which bottlenecks the racers) and then descends down a smooth fireroad (where most everyone is travelling the same speed)? Why is it never the other way around? Wouldn't it make so much more sense to have the climb up a fireroad allowing for easier passing and the descent down some sweet, challenging singletrack (the kind that leaves a grin on your face and leaves the XC racerboys clenching their buttcheeks). This may be a bit of a skewed opinion though, as I come from a DH background before getting into the endurance thing. Technical climbs are good, and can (at times) be fun, but really the only reason I climb is so that I can get to a fun hair-raising descent.

[aword4you]

This is really the first I've read about this, but do you need an endurance resume to enter, or just for the solo category?

Any links to more info?

Thanks.

[teamdicky]

Originally Posted by x-ker

I can't really chime in about the logistics of stage racing (as I have yet to do one), but I will mention one thing that annoys me from some of the endurance events I've been in.
.

I've seen it done both ways, but most promoters TRY to run you down the fun downhills as opposed to up. Problem is with point to point races sometimes you gotta do sections exactly the way you don't want to so the race gets to where it needs to be going. TR chopped a path straight up a mountain in 2006 because we needed to get to the other side. It was the nastiest hike-a-bike I'd ever seen, but we got where we needed to go.

[KERKOVEJ]

Originally Posted by MavSports

On to the next question: how about categories? What do you like/where is there a need?

Solo Race Categories
Solo Men
Solo Women
Solo Men SS
Solo Women SS

Team Race Categories
2 Men Open
2 Women Open
2 Men Vet
2 Women Vet
Coed Open

Once again....keep it simple and basic.

[jac02000]

I'm in if its solo!!!

I was on the fence about BCBRace. The team thing stinks. Great course and organization. The team thing sucks though... its gotta go.

Seems like Colorado or bust for me for next year!

What are the dates again?

any URL to a web site yet?

What is the proposed cost for registration? and when is it?

profile (or some rough definition defined yet)?


Thanks! (been looking for a solo staged event for a long time... only one seems to be LR)

[teamdicky]

Originally Posted by KERKOVEJ

Solo Race Categories
Solo Men
Solo Women
Solo Men SS
Solo Women SS

Team Race Categories
2 Men Open
2 Women Open
2 Men Vet
2 Women Vet
Coed Open

Once again....keep it simple and basic.

I think the team cats are good, but probably no need for a SS class in the solos (esp women). This isn't a sexist comment (or anti-singlespeedite), just based on how many SS'ers I've seen at other stage races. With only 25 solo spots open it seems like the field would have little need for the extra category. Although I wouldn't mind duking it out for a top spot on the SS podium I'll play with the big boys if I gotta. I'm there for the ride first and foremost.

That said you could leave the options open, and also include an open SS duo class. I could care less if were talking about prize money, belt buckles, or a hand shake. With or without a purse this thing will fill up, and most of us won't be there for the pot of gold. No prize money, no need to worry about how many cats there are.



Vet should probably be defined as it is in other stage races, by combined age. 80+ or whatever.

[jac02000]

Get rid of the team thing all together...
who in their right mind would sign up a team when they could go solo.
Way way less hastle.

From TR and BCBRace, seen enough in house fighting and mismatch performances etc...

its just simply - a pain in the azz to the whole thing.
Teams fall apart by day 3 and 4. Those that do stay together end up fighting it out some place along the way.
Almost have to go with your worst-best enemy.

I would say open up the solo field to 225-250 or so. Rest team format.

Solo will probably fill up in no time flat.

BCBike race, I think, had a hard time filling up because it is team format.
TR doesn't seem to have a hard time filling up anymore because its a well known race now.
I heard CapeEpic has a waiting list and so does TRAlps(?). Well known races though.

Solo is the way to go. Especially with a first time event. Then over time, introduce more team initiatives as the thing catches on...
(team thing just adds more complexity to it all. Have to manage the battles created within... just sucks big time.)

would try to keep the "all inclusive/hastle free" tent price at around 1100-1350USD or so.
then "just the basics/you do it all (except for transporting bag and tent)" at around 550-750USD or so (no food, little service etc...). For a 4-5 day event (that's about 150 a day, same price as a hundie almost).

Also, some well defined rules concerning support vehicles - no support vehicles on the trail network at all!
If there is anything that was totally annoying about LR was the support vehicles. Big big pain in the azz they were. To the point of asking - are they in the race.
Disqualification for those with support vehicles on the race course. Okay to have at select check points. But, charges apply to support vehicles at 200USD for the week.

on another note....
Would be really cool to have 100milers back to back. 4-5 days of hundies! Tough.
With 55-65% single track the remaining double, fire road and required paved to tie it all together. And, over 35000ft of climbing for all 5 days. I'm probably dreaming now though.... sure would be cool. I mean grueling. Just tough. Would probably be classified as one of the world's toughest (?).

[KERKOVEJ]

Originally Posted by jac02000

Get rid of the team thing all together...
who in their right mind would sign up a team when they could go solo.
Way way less hastle.

Agree 100%. But I thought the original idea/vibe was to model the event similar to TR, BC Bike race....but with the addition of Solo's. Ideally, I would like to see a solo only event.

[zrm]

Mike,

Zen like?? HA, You didn't see me all those years at the Fall Classic when thee S**t hit the fan. There's nothing like having half a dozen expert riders in your face who think they are next years pros who missed a turn that 500 other people made...... Ah the good old days

It sounds like you have a lot of good input from some folks who are really excited about your idea. If I where going to chime in about a couple more thing it's that I agree that the solo aspect appeals more to me than the team thing. Offer teams as an addition maybe, but for me, it should be a solo race. Offer the same categories that you offer in the F50 (no beginners though) if the entries justify it or go simpler as others have suggested.
Lastly, keep it as affordable as possible. You should make a good return for yourself and other staff, but as others have said, find the balance between essential services and piling on so much stuff that a lot of people don't need or want that add excessive expense.

If you guys can make it happen, remember it's a first year event and the simpler you make it, the easier the fires will be to put out when they inevitably arise. If it takes off you could have a big event on your hands a few years in the future, but always remember to do it for the riders (I know you already have this philosophy), for the love of the sport, and to do a professional job with a grass roots feel (something you and Jeff have done a good job of with the F50).

[j-dawg]

Hi there,

Just wanted to mention something I hadn't seen in the thread. The MS150, Bike Tour of Colorado, etc. use a guy called the Sherpa Packer who does sort of a rolling tent city. It's awesome. Costs ~$15/night. The gives you a sleeping pad, bag, nice tent, and takes care of all the setup/tear down. You might look in to using him or someone like him.

Also, knowing that is put on by Mav Sports I'm confident they'll make sure it's well done or not do it all. That said, I have no interest in doing this event but am interested in doing something like the Firecracker. To cover some of the services needed why not enlist some volunteers. I know I'd take a day off work to man an aid station or haul bags in exchange for a discounted (or free) Firecracker registration. Hell, I'd probably do it for some free schwag (t-shirt anyone?).

I volunteered as a SAG driver for the TBP 2 years ago and it was just as rewarding as any ride I've actually ridden in.

j

[IttyBittyBetty]

Originally Posted by jac02000

Get rid of the team thing all together...
who in their right mind would sign up a team when they could go solo.
Way way less hastle.

Well I for one would be interested in duo! Add my BF to that list. I think my mind is "right". We think it'd be a great way to have an incredible experience together. Not that we haven't done our own solo thing... But I come from an adventure racing background where team work is part of the experience. Besides, it sounded like the race organizer felt that solo racers presented safety concerns such that he would limit the solo field to a manageable number. I'd like to see see a duo class as well as solo so that more people could race than just a very limited number of solo racers.

I vote for duo SS I have a hunch there's at least one other duo that might be thinking SS too (you know who you are). However, ssperl and I very well might race our Single Speeds anyway even if we have to race against the geared coed teams

[MikeMac]

Originally Posted by x-ker

I can't really chime in about the logistics of stage racing (as I have yet to do one), but I will mention one thing that annoys me from some of the endurance events I've been in.

Why does it always seem like the course climbs up some sweet technical singletrack (which bottlenecks the racers) and then descends down a smooth fireroad (where most everyone is travelling the same speed)? Why is it never the other way around? Wouldn't it make so much more sense to have the climb up a fireroad allowing for easier passing and the descent down some sweet, challenging singletrack (the kind that leaves a grin on your face and leaves the XC racerboys clenching their buttcheeks). This may be a bit of a skewed opinion though, as I come from a DH background before getting into the endurance thing. Technical climbs are good, and can (at times) be fun, but really the only reason I climb is so that I can get to a fun hair-raising descent.

Oh I hear you bruther. Nothing bugs me more (except maybe litter.)

[kretzel]

Originally Posted by KERKOVEJ

Agree 100%. But I thought the original idea/vibe was to model the event similar to TR, BC Bike race....but with the addition of Solo's. Ideally, I would like to see a solo only event.

Don't knock the team thing til you've tried it. The dynamics between teammates are part of what make races like TR, BCBR great - IF you get the right teammate. I totally agree it is another thing to have to worry about (it kept me from stage races for several years) but it is part of the fun. I think the option to do solo is fantastic but there can be more to racing than just hammering out the miles alone.

If you get the wrong teammate the rest of us will get hours of amusement watching the fireworks!

[jac02000]

True adventure is LR.
Solo.
Has pretty much everything.
If you are looking for that safety factor- don't bother. You are in for a surprise.
The non-safety factor (risk, fear, and sometimes insane) is what makes LR what it is...
Sure, it has the comforts of home at night. Everyone needs that good night sleep. Yah right, you're up at 3am every damn day!

Team mtb races is just foolishness. Almost stupidity. To find someone exactly the same caliber in the same location that you live is extremely difficult, if not impossible.
Then add in the complexity of mis-matches in character possibly etc...

I don't spend this sort of money to fight with some riding partner. After transportation fees, all misc fees, etc... It all adds up to well over 3000 bucks a pop per stage race. Not including the vacation time taken off work to train etc... Its a lot of dough and time. To lug around a partner is just a pain in the azz. Big time. I've done it a couple of times and seen others try to match themselves up... lots of inhouse fighting results.

All depends on what you want I guess. But, if I'm spending heavy amounts of time, energy, and dough... I wanta make it worth my while.
Not another soap opera or "days of our lives" sort of show. Its suppose to be a race.

LR is fanatastic for the most part. Its a survival thing. Survival against oneself.
Just one concern - your own self survival.

TR and BCBRace are nice and all. But, the team thing really holds it back for what they could be. Kind of impedes it.

[HOser]

With the race promotion experience you have, Mike, (love the F50!!), this is something you're sure to do, but I'll mention it anyway. Here in Colorado, there's a huge pool of people ready to volunteer, I suggest getting them identified and involved as soon as possible, so they could plan around their other races. I for one would likely be first to step up to volunteer (volunteering will be a lot cheaper than entering , and beside I've got my 2008 races already planned and 2008 budget maxxed out). I'm sure you could get volunteer crews to do course marking and course sweeping to pick up trash, etc.

Just be sure to give volunteers some of that excellent coffee, and perhaps a T-shirt, and they will come!

[dwmpre]

Having done La Ruta and TRC multiple times, I figure I would chime in. I have been wondering why there is not a multi-day race in the states and would love to do one.

Obviously, TRC, LA Ruta, Cape Epic, Trans Alps are all very successful. Given that, I would love to see a race similiar to these in the US. I believe to make it successful, you need to provide a certain amount of services as follows.

- 2 meals a day, once in the morning and once after the stage.
- Lodging, either in a tent or hotel.
- Transportation to the starting line each day if necessary
- Transportation to/from the airport (Both TRC and La Ruta try to help out with this service)
- Control stations every couple of hours on the couse with adequate water, food for the entire field.
- Adequate number of Porto Johns
- Safty Personal to take care of sick/injured
- Adequate couse markings.

Nice to have's
T-Shirts/jersey's
Showers
Award ceramony
Mechanic Service
Message Service
Course that has a mix of terrain type to keep everyone happy.

Given that this is will be a multi-day event with a variety of pretty much necessary services, I can't imagine that it will be a cheap race. Again, you can take the format of some of the other races and have some of the services optionsl - you pay for what you want. All this stuff cost money, but given the success of the other multi-day races, I am hoping that we can have a successful one in the US soon.

[jac02000]

Here's some nice to have things as well:

~ KoM or QoM. I think a couple of "underground" stage races and some of the staged road races (I think green mountain stage race, for example) has these categories.
take the biggest climb or even the most technical decent or ascent and provide KoM or QoM awards... just adds some spice to it all.
TR had this one day with a really rocky decent, I think only 10 out of 450 riders or so would do the whole thing.

~ using braclets and check points. LR has some cheating. People have been seen changing riders half way through or bumming rides up the large decents. To avoid this, possibly using braclets with check personnel at key locations on larger ascents or possible places where cheating can occur. Not saying it will happen, but can happen.
Braclets would contain the person's number stamped onto the waterproof braclet. Anyone trying to remove the braclet would most likely damage it.

~ allow locals to set up venues at the finish line. I found it total cool to see locals at LR on one of the stages. They were selling local food products for a cheap price. Get a taste of what the small town has to offer. The cool thing about LR isn't just the overall experience, but seeing a different culture and way of doing things.
Same goes for some of the hundies as you go through some of the amish communities and such... Adds to the experience of it all. Plus, adds to the tourism aspect.

~ LR has a lot of local camera people. Can purchase packages for about 30USD from local camera crew. I think they format the pictures in such a way that your number is sorted. Creates some competition for those taking pictures of the event to sell. Options.

[Mike Brown]

Team/duo racing RADICALLY reduces the promoter's liability and risk. I help a good friend (pisgahproductions) promote some of the East's finest mountain bike adventure racing. In our local forest district, the ride-with-a-partner thing is a requirement for his events because it makes the forest service much much more willing to permit the events- it reduces THEIR risk/liability as well.
I'd wager tommorow's lunch that mavsports is having to look at these kind of factors. Resumes/ limited #'s required for solos, duo otherwise. Why? First, to reduce his liability. Secondly, because being able to demonstrate, as a promoter, that you have put safety controls in place for the event enables the land managers involved to permit the event. To have a event that people pay for and includes prizes has to be permitted BY LAW on federal land. Free events like GDR and/or CTR get away with the solo thing because they are free and do not have to be permitted.

Sorry, not trying to be on a soapbox, but I think people forget/ don't realize all of the factors involved sometimes.

[KERKOVEJ]

Originally Posted by jac02000

~ using braclets and check points. LR has some cheating. People have been seen changing riders half way through or bumming rides up the large decents. To avoid this, possibly using braclets with check personnel at key locations on larger ascents or possible places where cheating can occur. Not saying it will happen, but can happen. Braclets would contain the person's number stamped onto the waterproof braclet. Anyone trying to remove the braclet would most likely damage it.

I have done a 60 mile mnt bike event that had 4 checkpoints. Going into the event we as racers knew how many checkpoints we would come across....but we had no idea at what mile marker. At each checkpoint we got a zip-tie put on our stem or handlebar. Each check point had their own colored zip ties. When you finished.....you better have had all the correct colored zip ties.

[playpunk]

The big question for me is the cutoff on solo's. I think it'd be AWESOME to have the stage race be a kind of "crowning acheivement" for the NUE series - in the same way the boston marathon or NYC marathon is for runners. I think that having specific qualifying times or requirements would be a good idea.

For instance, if you can go sub 10 hours at any 2 hundies you get in. Or it could be harder - and could be combined with a lottery system, in the same way as the big running races. If you don't run a 2:50 marathon as a 25 year old guy to qualify for NYC you can still get in with a lottery system.

[sbsbiker]

mike, There is lots of great info here. I think that the most improtant things to provide is shelter for the night, and fuel for the racers. Breakfast and dinner will be needed by all unless we are stationed in a city or somewhere where food is available within walking distance of the start/ finish. Beer, while it may be an unpopular thing to say, would not be something I would offer up to a group of exausted, dehydrated stage racers. While an after race beer is great for a one day event, how many will be too many when you have an ongoing stage race.

To keep this thing a RACE and not a timed tour, good course markings, and maps are essential, as well as support out on the course. I don't want to self support the whole route with a camelback or get lost while riding with my head down.

If the group is camping/sleeping together, that must be managed. If not I'm sure the forrest service will want to know where everyone wil be going after the stages. Management of the out of race personal is also something to consider, If I get in, I'll have my best girl driving my truck around to pamper me and give support, where all the support people stay, and poop is something you should plan/ charge for.

IMHO you can't go cheap and do this thing the way it needs to be done to minimize it's impact on the trails and forrest. If people want to play, they need to pay, for cleanup and event support, so that the forrest is left the way it was found and the racers have the suport they need to finish this type of event. I've done Firecracker several times, and know that you know what it takes to put on a top quailty event, don't be afriad to charge what you need to do the best job you can. When i did TR we raced for 36+ hours for $1800 thats about $50 an hour with meals, two t-shirts, support, transportation, bike wash and tents included.

[teamdicky]

Originally Posted by sbsbiker

how many will be too many when you have an ongoing stage race.

Unhhhhh... there's a such thing as "too many"?

I'm gonna have to look into that.

[jeffscott]

sorry head down, and you get lost, too bad.

need good map, need critical course marking, but you don't need a ribbon every hundred meters.

[fruitadan]

MM,

Sounds like a great race, lots of interest and great comments/ideas. Let me know if I can be of any help.

[mtbjedi1]

I am in the same boat as Jeff. I'm looking at planning my season around this beauty. I agree with MC, for me the course is paramount. It's the single reason I won't do Leadville again. It needs a good mix. I think each individual stage should be no problem in itself, but stringing them all together makes it epic. We already have Zuma and B100 for the really hard 1 day races. 2nd in line should be cost considerations. The Ultra scene is getting more expensive by the year. As for creature comforts, Showers and bike wash. Food. Most folks doing this will also be bringing some form of support personnel. They can do the tent set up. I say most, not all. Looking at RTR, there are plenty of people who tag along the route, and riders pay them to set up their camp. As for food, maybe contracting a different caterer in each town, that way you don't have to move as much gear every day. Again, learning from RTR, the high school gyms make easy, if not the most scenic, campgrounds. Hey, this could solve the tent problem! If everyone just brings there bag, no need for a tent inside the gym. I know this isn't the greatest of ideas, but it would reduce the need for all that tent stuff.
I would be down for solo, as you're probably seeing everyone else is too.

[sbsbiker]

Just for conversation, does this race have to follow the Transrockies and BCbike race format and go across the state, or would racers support a event that was based out of a single location, but races over different 45+ mile courses for 5 days? Montazuma's Revenge over multiple days??

[KERKOVEJ]

Originally Posted by sbsbiker

Just for conversation, does this race have to follow the Transrockies and BCbike race format and go across the state, or would racers support a event that was based out of a single location, but races over different 45+ mile courses for 5 days? Montazuma's Revenge over multiple days??

I would prefer a single location (ie: Breck, Crested Butte, Winter Park, Salida, etc, etc) with a different course each day. Logistically, it would be easier from a racer and promoter standpoint. At least that is my thinking from when I helped put on Trans-Iowa.

[frejwilk]

Originally Posted by sbsbiker

Just for conversation, does this race have to follow the Transrockies and BCbike race format and go across the state, or would racers support a event that was based out of a single location, but races over different 45+ mile courses for 5 days? Montazuma's Revenge over multiple days??

My interest in this is based on a through route. And I'm not sure an event would even have to venture too far out of Summit County to achieve that. Montezuma's Revenge was one of my favorite events. A multi day running of a similar route would be a sad way to remember that great event for many. I'm not getting the impression that's the kind of course that Maverick is planning.

FW

[MikeMac]

Originally Posted by frejwilk

My interest in this is based on a through route. And I'm not sure an event would even have to venture too far out of Summit County to achieve that. Montezuma's Revenge was one of my favorite events. A multi day running of a similar route would be a sad way to remember that great event for many. I'm not getting the impression that's the kind of course that Maverick is planning.

FW

...although Jeff and I remain great friends, we are no longer partners in Maverick Sports. This would be a Yeti./Bigfoot Productions event. If I can I'll con...errr, I mean sweet talk Jeff into helping out.

And since I'm here I might as well pass this along - we might not even touch Summit County.

MM

[frejwilk]

Originally Posted by MavSports

...although Jeff and I remain great friends, we are no longer partners in Maverick Sports. This would be a Yeti./Bigfoot Productions event. If I can I'll con...errr, I mean sweet talk Jeff into helping out.


MM

Sorry, I guess the Mavsports name got me confused. Good luck with the race.

FW

[singlespeedwi]

A couple of points:

Hearing 25 solo spots is a shame. If anything have more solo and less teams. I think the downside to the "others" is that they are teams only. This is one reason La Ruta has something on the others in my opinion.

Have a tent and a hotel option.

Food - great food and boiled fingerling new potatoes with salt. Those at La Ruta this year know the love.

Course markings are critical and set so they don't get messed with.

I disagree with Rich - Solo SS Womens. Increase the solo spots and add Solo SS womens. There are a number of SS women here in CO that I am sure would do this.

One question I have is - CO forest service is looking at transportation plan currently. A lot of critical trail is up for potential closures including the colorado trail. If this is too happen next summer - has there been work with the forest service for permits?

[teamdicky]

Originally Posted by singlespeedwi

I disagree with Rich - Solo SS Womens. Increase the solo spots and add Solo SS womens. There are a number of SS women here in CO that I am sure would do this.

I was just thinking that with only 25 solo spots the classes will be small enough all ready. Even if we go 13 men/12 women I'd hate to see it watered down to 9 male open/4 male SS & 9 female open/4 female SS (or something like that). I'd rather have no SS class at all with those kinda numbers.
If the solo number is bigger than 25, well then...

[singlespeedwi]

Originally Posted by teamdicky

I was just thinking that with only 25 solo spots the classes will be small enough all ready. Even if we go 13 men/12 women I'd hate to see it watered down to 9 male open/4 male SS & 9 female open/4 female SS (or something like that). I'd rather have no SS class at all with those kinda numbers.
If the solo number is bigger than 25, well then...

For sure if only 25 spots, I don't think any SS class...but then I hope there are more than 25 solo spots.

[jeffscott]

never understood the ss class thing, why not a 29 class, maybe a rigid class,

just ride the bike you like.

[Rockin]

Have to Have - more than 25 solo spots.

I would have an earlier sign-up period for solos (half or more of the field?) then an open sign-up for the remaining spots that could be either solo or team until it is filled.

[MikeMac]

Originally Posted by frejwilk

Sorry, I guess the Mavsports name got me confused. Good luck with the race.

FW

Well, you're both wrong and right. Jeff and I used to be co-owners of Maverick Sports in Breck. I chose not to jump through all the hoops with a new username a few years back.

MM

[MikeMac]

Originally Posted by jac02000

True adventure is LR.
Solo.

jac02000 - your point and your intention are well taken, but I have to point out that different folks participate for different reasons. One person's 'truth' may not be another's. In my experience, there are many 'truths' and all of them are valid to the folks who hold them to be true. The promotion of one truth above all others is the root of much conflict in the world...

If solo categories are offered, what difference does it make if teams are also offered?

Mike

[sbsbiker]

With the solo class being so limited, it should be sex only that splits it up. Age, SS, 29er ect should not be a factor. Open men and Women Solo.

[jac02000]

not saying it should not have the team thing. Just don't open up 80% of it to just team.
25 solo spots will sell out in no time at all.

truths- there will always be conflict... playing with oneself is the easiest way to avoid the conflict. The good bike lords made five fingers to play with!

I will participate solo to avoid conflict. Fingers on my wheel/ride only. No need to stick my fingers on my buddies wheel and hold him/her tight as well. Just me, my ride and the open forest floor. No BS... Just playing with myself and my ride.
What fingers get dirty will be my own. Self inflicted conflict with myself. Again, no BS for the money dished out.

pain in the azz factor going solo: low
pain in the azz factor going team: high

conflict: self inflicted if solo
conflict: gotta satisfy another body if team approach. Multiple conflict may lead to wounds (especially if incompatible or highly competitive etc... difficult to find perfect match in partners...)

Riding solo equals self fornication (ain't no one to blame but ones self and if I crash... leave me to rest... please!). Riding team means managing an orgy of difficulties that may arise.

(lots of XC skiing races are solo, a couple of winter bike races in the middle of no place for many days are solo... froozen body parts occur. I don't mind being chased by bears and chit, just make me move faster! But, the tought of being froozen to a snow bank would suck...
Not sure why the forest authority would find the partner thing more "safe" in the middle of summer... )

if I was in it for the safety thing - I'd stay at home and play chess or something... it would probably end up being some form of extreme chess or something at the end of it all though.... love thrills, spills and big hills!!!!

[MikeMac]

Why am I curiously aroused after reading that?

I started this thread because I wanted the endurance community to have a voice in the construction of this event. If I'm reading correctly you're telling me that you want more solo slots, right? Done. If Uncle Sam agrees. We'll work out the ratio a bit further down the road.

MM

[sean salach]

i'll throw in another emphatic vote for more solo spots. @600 people paid $1,000+ to race solo in la ruta. i think at least 50% of them were from other countries. there is clearly a huge demand. you don't see a two person format in any of the road stage races, i really don't understand the need for it in mtb stage racing.

[2melow]

Go Lite is in Boulder as well. But their tents are all under 5 pounds I think...

[jac02000]

"curiously aroused after reading that"

hehe... don't be... damn I hope not

I just like being solo for staged stuff from here on in. My partners did not climax at the same time... I'm not sure if they would have ever climaxed.
riding is like sex... we just have bars between us and padded shorts to keep us under control.



@600 people paid $1,000+ to race solo in la ruta. i think at least 50% of them were from other countries. there is clearly a huge demand
--> I'll agree to that. 600 or so people that paid for pain!

[Slimon]

I think this thread is a great idea and Ive enjoyed reading it. A lot of good points have been raised. Ive been doing the ultra thing for two years and did TR this year.

Team/Solo...Someone said the team thing is for safety and they are absolutely right. I dont think its a coincidence that the only solo race of this kind is in a country with far less lawyers per capita. Many people get hurt at TR every year, the team thing keeps it reasonably safe.

However, the "safeness" of TR is one thing that bothered me. Despite its difficult course, I think the TR attracts a lot less "true racers" because it so safe. No one gets left on the course, lots of aid stations, teams, lots of medical support, marshalls, meals, etc. If you took away all those things, I think a lot less people that are looking for an "aggressive bike tour" would shy away. Consequently, I and lots of other people that come to "race", would not be dettered at all.

So, what do I need? #1. A well marked course. #2. A VERY CLEAR understanding of what you will and will not provide. Thats it. Like a previous poster said, we are adults, well figure it out.

-If I know 6 months ahead that you wont provide meals and tents, I can prepare and make it work. However, if you say you will and dont do it well, Im screwed.
-If I know there are no checkpoints, I can race unsupported for 10 hours. However, if I get to an expected aid station that has run no water, again, im screwed.

I think my point is clear, but I will spell it out anyway: Do not say you will provide anything unless you know 100% that you can follow through. If I screw up my 3000 dollar trip, thats my problem. If you screw it up....

Finally, I really do think running an event with minimal logistic support would be fine. In fact, I would prefer it. Most top racers do all their own support anyway. Im not trying to be elitest, but I would love to see a race that is simply the best of the best duking it out. The "aggressive bike tour" people already have plenty of options.

Does the Tour de France offer meals and tent set up? Ask yourself, what kind of racer do you want to attract?

Good luck,
Simon

[teamdicky]

Originally Posted by Slimon

Does the Tour de France offer meals and tent set up? Ask yourself, what kind of racer do you want to attract?

Yes, I want a Tour de France experience. The heck with meals and tents. I would like domestiques, hotels, soigneurs, a personal chef, a team doctor, coach, trainer, tour buses....oh, and a big fat paycheck instead of an entry fee.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[Slimon]

Originally Posted by teamdicky

Yes, I want a Tour de France experience. The heck with meals and tents. I would like domestiques, hotels, soigneurs, a personal chef, a team doctor, coach, trainer, tour buses....oh, and a big fat paycheck instead of an entry fee.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Hey Rich,
I knew that was comming, but I think the point is still valid.

[teamdicky]

Originally Posted by Slimon

Hey Rich,
I knew that was comming, but I think the point is still valid.

Sorry, it's what they pay me to do.

[jac02000]

if I was in it for the safety thing - I'd stay at home and play chess or something... it would probably end up being some form of extreme chess or something at the end of it all though.... love thrills, spills and big hills!!!!

TR was alright, but kinda boring at times... not enough thrills.
BCBikerace was boring at the start then came the thrills near the end.
LR brings pain day 1 with lots of mud. But, there was some thrills... there was this really neat decent this year that came into chest deep water. Damn fun.
Then there were the hair raising bridge crossings (I nearly fell in as I took the side of the fallingaparttracks instead of the center). Then the greasy 20-30% descents with some hairpin turns. And damn animals all over the place as you are heading down descents doing a good 70-85km/h... wild times sometimes.
Thrills, spills and big friggen hills (going down of course). Where its at.

Cause we aren't here just to race. We need our thrill factor. Really gets the heart rate going at a continuous pace.

factors to examine:
thrill factor
pain in the azz factor
comfort factor
spill factor (wipe outs)
hollychitfun factor
bigazzhill factor (climbs)
many others... all add up to a hell of a good time and leaves stains on the brain. When the time comes to sign up again. Its the stains on the brain that count!