Winter riding and warm feet.

[mikesee]

Since the topic seems to come up here on occasion, I thought I'd share. I posted a few details about the system I use for keeping my feet warm when winter riding. See it here:

Cheers,

MC

[timroz]

I'm using the same shoe, but I am using a 2 mil neoprene sock as my VBL and then 1 or 2 layers of smartwool mountaineering socks. With the BOA on the Lakes I can adjust the boot to fit good with different thicknesses of insulation.

Anyway I am wondering if you seal the leather with Sno-Seal or somthing similar? Seems like the leather on the Lakes might not be very water resistant out of the box. I have not had the opportunity to walk through 6" of overflow yet - but I probably will.

[qayaq_alaska]

standard layup which, in concept, should be followed by all coldweather enthusiasts!

VBL sock is especially critical with any leather boot as the moisture will soak and freeze them from the inside out. Nice if the VBL sock extends to the top of your boot sock too...hard to find. Very nice custom VBLs from RBH Designs - fabric is most comfortable and have replaced all my 'bag' vblsocks.

Original LAKEs are cut narrow...beware! Haven't seen the WIDE LAKEs...anyone have word on the fit???

I'm looking for some stiff insoles to go in my Lobbens and make them pedal worthy...anyone have any ideas?

There are some great mountaineering boot liners on the market that fit the bill...if you can pay the bill.

M

[Mesotony]

Thanks for the link Mike - enjoying your blog (originally found the link on www.alaskaultrasport.com) and thanks for the reminder about circulation v. insulation - that is how I got to my franken-boots. http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.ph...901#post617901

Three years later, still clipped in and comforatble!

See ya in Feburary?

[Bearbait]

Mike - if you can get lake to make a size 20 shoe I'd be all over it

suprised you dont add another insulating sock over the VB.
Also - ever thought of getting intuition liners for the oversized Lakes? Lighter, non-absorbant and likely even warmer.
The extra $160 might be why...

[qayaq_alaska]

at REI online:

clikety clik

I replaced my decade old Salomon winter boots at a nice savings:

http://www.rei.com/REI-Outlet/product/755157


M

[pbasinger]

Man I've tried everything with the Lakes and can never stay warm.
I have a size 48 (which was the biggest they made a few years back) for my 45 foot, pile in a couple of socks of various combinations and they still suck in the cold temps. I have pretty sensitive feet though. The Lakes are good quality and all that, but if you don't have feet small enough to go with Mike's system save the cash, learn to ride flats and buy some cheap winter hiking boots a little too big. Couple extra socks or a boot liner if you want to get all fancy and you should be good down to the negatives. Add a non insulated Neos and your warm in the coldest conditions and waterproof.
Thats what worked for me anyway after struggling to make the Lakes work for a few years.
The trick is getting accustomed to the flat pedals.

[jeffscott]

Nothing wrong with the Shimano winter boot.

Good to -20 C without additional layers.

I have a insulated ice climbing gaiters, I would use below -30 C.

[Nanuq]

Check out Pia's sweater shop at 4th and E. She carries Lobben winter boots and they're amazing. They are NOT waterproof in overflow but they breathe so your feet stay dry(ish) and have a good stiff sole.

[qayaq_alaska]

gotta agree with Pete on the LAKEs...if you have a wide foot and you're in the standard widths...gonna be tough. would like to try Mike's oversizing and some of our liner ideas with the wide lasts on the LAKEs. Maybe with my Intuition Liner! *hmmm...scratches his head*

have a serious problem with the NEOS...great concept for us as we're in overflow more often than not...I need something of the sort...esp on the Bering Sea end of the Yukon and Kuskokwim...but the things are water traps, esp the high cut versions...they don't breath at all and I've got a hellofalot of water inside the overboot after a long day. I called NEOS and inquired and gave them suggestions on fabrics...also put in a query with Apocalypse Designs custom shop re: sewing a new upper on the things...we'll see...!

Originally Posted by pbasinger

Man I've tried everything with the Lakes and can never stay warm.
I have a size 48 (which was the biggest they made a few years back) for my 45 foot, pile in a couple of socks of various combinations and they still suck in the cold temps. I have pretty sensitive feet though. The Lakes are good quality and all that, but if you don't have feet small enough to go with Mike's system save the cash, learn to ride flats and buy some cheap winter hiking boots a little too big. Couple extra socks or a boot liner if you want to get all fancy and you should be good down to the negatives. Add a non insulated Neos and your warm in the coldest conditions and waterproof.
Thats what worked for me anyway after struggling to make the Lakes work for a few years.
The trick is getting accustomed to the flat pedals.

[Bearbait]

those are what Kathy Sarns used when she and Pat did the trip out of Kotze, combined with Neos I think.
The using a VB sock system+wool+Neos is a good combo for those with big flippers.

[AleutianMTB]

That's a good deal from REI on the Lakes. Just ordered a pair two sizes up from my normal shoe size. Should be a big improvement over my current set up.

[Dan Hensley]

I have had the Lakes for three years. They don't work for me unless I use chemical toe warmers if it is under 35 degrees. (I have terrable circulation in my feet) They are also not waterproof, which is not fun after crossing a stream when it is snowing or in heavy rain.

Started doing long rides last year with Trans Iowa and some of the longer MTB races/rides and plan to continue. Wanna thank Mike for the great idea, but like some others, I would need a 50-51 size. Franken-footed I am. The vapor barrier seems to be what I really need, I guess. So with that, has anyone tried the Sidi GTX that came out last year? I would think the mix of good wool socks and Gore-Tex would help a bunch. I am 99% sold on them, but Stella at Sidi said not to order a size bigger because of heel slipping, which worries me a bit. It's alot of money to waste for a mistake, and no one in the area carries them for me to try. I can only find one review on line, and it's from a magazine...I don't trust them.

[Bearbait]

Martin - If you want to experiment I'd be happy to try putting Scholler softshell or goretex xcr uppers on a pair of Neos. I just need a pair to cut up. Got the materials.

[FOX8000]

I have a pair of the Lake boots that are one size larger than normal. I wear a thin wool sock and a bread bag as a vapor barrier. I also replaced the stock insole for a thicker insulating one. For the really cold temps I'll put insulation on the outside of the boot. The vapor barrier keeps the dampness inside of the boot so it won't soak the boot or insulation. This also takes care of the heel slip problem. Here's a link to some pictures from before last years Arrowhead 135.

http://24hoursofbiking.blogspot.com/...is-almost.html

[qayaq_alaska]

I disagree...IMAO, the sole of the Lobbens is not stiff - by any means...on a day ride, yes, the sole may suffice but on a long multiday haul I don't feel they provide the support a cyclist needs. Even with a wide platform pedal, I find my feet getting tired after a few days of hard riding.

The sizing on these boots can be a little funky as the last and the body of the boots are, ahh, different! Best to bring ur socks/vbl et al and go to Pia's and try them on...tendency to run small. Deh'aint cheap

http://www.piasweaters.com/clogs.htm

Having said that, I've been using Lobbens for over 20 years and they are definately one of THE best 'dry cold' weather boot going. With oversizing, various combinations of overboot / gaiter (yes, a breathable Neos) and a stiff custom footbed...they remain a mainstay in my quiver of coldweather footwear.

Originally Posted by Nanuq

Check out Pia's sweater shop at 4th and E. She carries Lobben winter boots and they're amazing. They are NOT waterproof in overflow but they breathe so your feet stay dry(ish) and have a good stiff sole.

[qayaq_alaska]

DONE

Have a couple pair I can throw at you...see if you can find some Gore Immersion Tech Fabric from ur supplier.

I'll call you!

M

Originally Posted by Bearbait

Martin - If you want to experiment I'd be happy to try putting Scholler softshell or goretex xcr uppers on a pair of Neos. I just need a pair to cut up. Got the materials.

[qayaq_alaska]

hmmm

[qayaq_alaska]

Just got a pair of the Wide LAKE boots, MXZ 302, size 50

While the last and sole seem to be the same (size and shape) they are definitely wider and a different boot...lugged sole is improved and better for walking, the toe box has been expanded and the esp. the center of the boot (at the instep area) has been widened quite a bit.

Should be interesting...now all we need is a winter!

***********

FYI...Salomon was one of the first winter boot companies to come out with an insulated boot built off of a medium stiff hiking last and sole. I bought those boots many years ago (10 12 yrs?) and they have been a mainstay for me - used mainly for 'running dogs' (digress:those type of boots became very popular with many Iditarod Mushers - warm, light in weight, good sole, allowing them to run efficiently behind the sled).

Just upgraded (rei outlet) with a new version of the Salomon Winter boot...B29 WP...I'm really liking them...thinsulate, stiff sole, wide last, fairly waterproof...the only thing I will change are the laces and some studs on the sole. Think they are gonna replace my older Salomon boots and may be DaKine for biking. Just a thought! aaaa

[Bearbait]

Gore Immersion is only sold to authorized manufactures of waders, drysuits etc... we are lucky enough to be able to buy XCR.

Now if you have a drysuit to cut up....

The tricky part if we go the gore-tex route will be seam sealing - I know the tape I've used before dosent like to stick to urethane base fabrics like the inside of the neos.

by the way, the goretex I have is a sky blue, so you might get picked on by the locals for having little fairy boots.

[ickyickyptngzutboing]

Haha... kudos for the work you've been doing with the boots bearbait, but I have to give you mad props for the last line of the previous post.

I can see it now... someone riding by with little fairy blue boots...

And to keep this post in line with the topic -- thanks for all the info. Using neoprene covers, normal shoes, and wool sockies, my feet have been staying warm for up to an hour, so when things are really cooling down here, I'll be using this thread to ghetto-ingineer a pair of boots to hold me over until I can get a pair of decent winter riding shoes that will really be comfortable (i.e. lakes to do the above mods...)

[qayaq_alaska]

I was sponsored by Gore when they were testing the Immersion Tech Fabrics...I'll have to dig up some old records...but let me see what I can do!

As a matter of fact...I do have an old drysuit to cut up...(see above) lol.

You're not going to have the gear to hot tape ImmersionTech...unless you have a rich auntie we don't know about...however, if you lay a flat stitch, its nothing some AquaSeal can't remedy.

I'll call you at home...tonight...email me ur phone number again.
alaskanoutdoorcenter email!

Boots are on their way today.

ML

Originally Posted by Bearbait

Gore Immersion is only sold to authorized manufactures of waders, drysuits etc... we are lucky enough to be able to buy XCR.

Now if you have a drysuit to cut up....

The tricky part if we go the gore-tex route will be seam sealing - I know the tape I've used before dosent like to stick to urethane base fabrics like the inside of the neos.

by the way, the goretex I have is a sky blue, so you might get picked on by the locals for having little fairy boots.

[awinterbiker]

What fabric is waterproof and breaths at temps much below freezing? I've seen fleece get frost on the outside at cold temps but that's being driven by a warm body core. It's seems like feet and legs don't produce enough heat to push water vapor through a fabric at cold temps much less a waterproof one.

I've been trying oversized Answer Kasmirs and on their own they work for me down to around 15-20F, I use neoprene socks. With a Performace Neoprene bootie over them I'm good to 10F. With some homemade thinsulate toe warmers over the boots and under the neoprene booties the set up is good to zero F. Below that, (or if I'm expecting to encounter overflow), I use NEOS with eggbeater cleats mounted on the sole and various inner liners and sock combos.

[qayaq_alaska]

Originally Posted by awinterbiker

What fabric is waterproof and breaths at temps much below freezing?

Walrus and/or Seal Gut!

M

[awinterbiker]

"I called NEOS and inquired and gave them suggestions on fabrics...also put in a query with Apocalypse Designs custom shop re: sewing a new upper on the things...we'll see...!" quoted from an earlier post from Martin


I'm confused. I asked what fabric is waterproof and breaths at temps well below freezing. You replied "Walrus and/or Seal Gut". So are those the materials you suggested NEOS and Apocalypes use?

[qayaq_alaska]

Check with the Parsons company Epic Designs regarding the New NEOS Overboots:

http://epicdesigns-ak.blogspot.com/

[sean salach]

damn you people and your little feet! i'm good with a thin summer sock, woolie boolies and summer shoes in shallow or well packed snow down to about 5 degrees f. colder than that and as of now, i have little choice but to go to platforms and boots. bearbait has inspired me to get creative with my 'spare' shoes though. might have to hack and sew to try and make something winterworthy out of them.

[Bearbait]

awinterbiker - the answer is that we dont really know - this is all an experiment. Martin and I intend try a few different fabrics to see if any will work. Even just a little more breathable will be better than the neos uppers with them still being water proof - if you just want a high non-waterproof upper gaiter then thats easy..

here is what I put into my neos...
cheaper and stiffer than the boots from Pias

[awinterbiker]

I use some sheepskin boots with the sole removed and replaced with a couple of layers of insulating material inside NEOS. For stiffness the cleats are mounted on stiff plastic plates which are then mounted on the bottom of the NEOS. I used to get some moisture inside my NEOS but now that I always use neoprene socks that no longer happens. I'm seldom out for more than 4-6 hours so that helps.

By the way has anybody used any Aspen Aerogel products and if so what's your opinion? I like the insoles made from it and would love to see an inner boot made from it. t