I have never used these products, but have heard good things. However, reading the description of each they sound really, really similar. In a nutshell, which is better for super-long events like 24 hour+ rides?
Also, are they really enough food to be your sole source of calories during an event?
For Trans Iowa I am thinking of bringing a bunch of zip loc bags filled with water bottle sized amounts. They would weigh far less than just about any other product I could take along because they are essentially dehydrated food. At stops I could just get water, throw a bag of hammer product in, and go. Is this going to be enough to keep me going the whole distance?
The calories would probably be sufficient, but you might get so tired of it that you can't keep drinking it. My tongue and stomach like a bit of variety.
I use both products as my sole source of nutrition during 100 mile and 12 hour races. Even for 24 hour solo events they are my main food, with maybe a little solid food, like soup, around midnight.
Either one will be fine on it's own for the event but I agree that having a choice is nice. Most people find that they taste better when mixed thick. I will normally mix up a bottle that will last 3,4 or even 5 hours. Pay attention to the amount of total calories you are mixing to make sure you don't exceed your nutrition plan. Mark off the hourly amounts on the bottle. I also add in Hammer Gel with either product, it reduces the amount of powder to mix and adds a different flavor. Like anything, try it before race day.
I use both products as my sole source of nutrition during 100 mile and 12 hour races. Even for 24 hour solo events they are my main food, with maybe a little solid food, like soup, around midnight.
Either one will be fine on it's own for the event but I agree that having a choice is nice. Most people find that they taste better when mixed thick. I will normally mix up a bottle that will last 3,4 or even 5 hours. Pay attention to the amount of total calories you are mixing to make sure you don't exceed your nutrition plan. Mark off the hourly amounts on the bottle. I also add in Hammer Gel with either product, it reduces the amount of powder to mix and adds a different flavor. Like anything, try it before race day.
Scroll down a bit on this page, there is an article comparing the two. Personally I use Perp. because I like the taste, and it is a more "complete" fuel source.
Before Hammer came out with Perpetuem, I used a lot of SE but now I use mainly Perpetuem for long rides/races. When Perpetuem was fairly new, I did the Fireweed 400. Perpetuem worked well in training but I was still nervous about using it in a long race. I was flying so I couldn't take enough of each so I was switching back and forth every hour. It really seemed I felt better at the end of the hour with Perpetuem. Once I had enough Perpetuem left to finish the race, I just used it.
At higher intensities, I found that I have some stomach discomfort with Perpetuem. According to Hammer people do fine with at high intensity and if there's stomach discomfort it is from taking in too many calories. That doesn't seem to be true for me. In higher intensity races, I mix SE and Perpetuem half and half. Also to have a change in flavor, I'll mix in some HEED. They also have an unflavored version of the Perpetuem now if you don't like the flavor. I also like that with some HEED mixed in. As long as it doesn't get too warm, I don't have a problem with getting tired of the taste. For 8 days last year during Race Across America, Perpetuem provided at least 80% of my calories.
I started out only using Sustained Energy when it was first available. It tasted awful, but I just had to keep telling myself it was my fuel and taste wasn't all that important-because it really worked for me. When the Perpetuem came along that was the next big thing and it did taste (a little) better. I had read somewhere (here, actually) that mixing them together worked well for some racers, so I did that.
Nowadays, I mix the SE and Perp with a dollop of Hammer Gel and that has been, for me, the best yet.
It took some time, but by keeping my ears and mind open, and doing some experimentation on my own, I've found what works for me in 12/24hr races.
Kinda like how I used to think I only liked redheads...until I met this blonde I've been with for the last 10yrs...
I started out only using Sustained Energy when it was first available. It tasted awful, but I just had to keep telling myself it was my fuel and taste wasn't all that important-because it really worked for me. When the Perpetuem came along that was the next big thing and it did taste (a little) better. I had read somewhere (here, actually) that mixing them together worked well for some racers, so I did that.
Nowadays, I mix the SE and Perp with a dollop of Hammer Gel and that has been, for me, the best yet.
It took some time, but by keeping my ears and mind open, and doing some experimentation on my own, I've found what works for me in 12/24hr races.
Kinda like how I used to think I only liked redheads...until I met this blonde I've been with for the last 10yrs...
When I first started using SE, I had trouble with the taste. I finally got to the point I could tolerate it because it worked. I had too many miserable 24 hour solo mountain bike races on solid foods and other drinks. One time at the 24 Hours of Moab in the wee hours of the morning, I was just sure my wife had put something strawberry in my SE. I've had stomach problems riding after eating strawberries or drinking juice with it in. I stewed for a full lap about it and was so mad when I got back to the pits. My wife said there was nothing but SE in my drink and I finally got over it.
I have to agree with Shiggy on age of mixes. In my case it Perpetuem. I mixed some up the night before and put it in the fridge. It tasted really stale. So use it fresh for the best taste I think.
I have never used Hammer Products except the gel and endurolytes. I use SUCCEED Clip 2 www.succeedscaps.com . It was designed for ultra runners. It has the perfect mix of fats,proteins and carbs. It is specifically designed for ultra distance events. I do what somebody stated above. I mix a 3-5 hr bottle and then just gauge my intake. It is still a work in progress but I am closer to a sound nutrition plan than I personally have ever been. Also their S Caps(electrolyte tablets) work way better for me than Hammer Endurolytes did. Virtually No More Cramps. I am not an employee of Succeed and I am not trying to dog Hammer. This is just my opinion!!!!! Anyone else use SUCCEED products?
I've had some trouble getting the chunks out of my perpetum, seems easier with SE, but I like the flavor of perpetum a little better so I'm going with that.
i too had questions like this. CALL THE HAMMER NUTRITION GUYS! I was -floored- at how the dude that took my call talked with me for like 30 min about which products would work for my events. He asked about my sport, the specific events, whether i like sweet or unsweet stuff, etc. I ended up actually getting fewer products than I had originally thought about, and i have a good plan now for TransIowa.
BTW- the guy at Hammer told me that with Perpetum you need only add electrolytes. He recommended against mixing Heed or Hammer Gel with Perpetum since it would be too many carbs/sugars.
BTW2- if you're going to order from Hammer, ask around here for someone's account # first. it will get you 15% off and will get them 15% off their next order.
With Perp. as a sole fuel source. Last summer I did 2 endurance events and used Perp mixed for multi hour use, hammer gels and Ecaps. Also ate bananas, other foods with no simple sugars as Hammer suggests. I got cramps and nausea in both races when in years past using different fuel combinations I did not have such problems. Also on long training road rides I used Perp & Ecaps but also Cytomax and even gatorade and more solid food and was fine. I think the E caps are hard on the stomach and it is difficult to gauge how many to take. Despite the "glowing' endorsements Hammer seems to get I know pro athletes who do not like those products. Perp has no electrolytes, the gel has some. I think Perp would be better if it had electrolytes in it. So I may look into the other product --Succeed--mentioned above, or use Perp but supplement with Cytomax for the electrolytes.
Just buy small quantities or single packets of each and give them each a shot. This will add a little to the bottom line ($), but dropping 40+$ for a product you don't like will cost more in the end. I know this doesn't tell you which one to get, but I hope it offers some sort of answer.
Mike
I've had good success in 24Hr solo with the use of Perpetuem every other hour and E-Load every other hour plus hydration pack....I also use enervit double shots and bars. I find both e-load and perpetuem not too acidic as some drinks can be rally hard on the gut and sitting in that same position for a long time the last thing you need is a disturbance down below..
I think the only solution is trial and error and on some prelim. 7 -8hr rides see what works for you..
Heat and fitness level also dictates how much you consume
I had no problem living almost exclusively on Perp for my last 24. Supplemented it with Endurolytes. Fuel became a non-issue. But as almost everyone says, try it out first as your mileage may vary....
My stomach just can't handle the gels, any gels...unfortunately, I didn't really figure that out until I used them, untested on my first major ride up Mt. Washington.
So although I am happy with Perp, maybe I missed it in the fine print, but I still don't know the answer to your original question of SE v. Perp...
The link alizbee gave should answer your questions.
Now, for my opinions...
I prefer Perpetuem mixed about 8 scoops/bottle. This is 4 hours worth of calories for my weight. For me, this has the best flavor and consistency than either a single serving bottle or mixed as a paste in a flask. I find it delicious mixed this way. Last weekend, I decided to mix a 5 hour bottle for the Ouachita Challenge. It was still good but it was starting to get more of a chalky consistency. Think I'll stick with a 4 hour bottle.
SE is too 'soy' tasting to me. However, I never tried it mixed the way I mix Perp.
It is perfectly acceptable to mix any of the Hammer products. Just be sure to keep track of the total calories. I sometimes mix unflavored Heed with Perp. I plan to get some unflavored Perp to mix with Orange Heed. As others have said, many people mix different flavors of Hammer gel with SE or plain Perp.
The link alizbee gave should answer your questions.
Now, for my opinions...
I prefer Perpetuem mixed about 8 scoops/bottle. This is 4 hours worth of calories for my weight. For me, this has the best flavor and consistency than either a single serving bottle or mixed as a paste in a flask. I find it delicious mixed this way. Last weekend, I decided to mix a 5 hour bottle for the Ouachita Challenge. It was still good but it was starting to get more of a chalky consistency. Think I'll stick with a 4 hour bottle.
SE is too 'soy' tasting to me. However, I never tried it mixed the way I mix Perp.
It is perfectly acceptable to mix any of the Hammer products. Just be sure to keep track of the total calories. I sometimes mix unflavored Heed with Perp. I plan to get some unflavored Perp to mix with Orange Heed. As others have said, many people mix different flavors of Hammer gel with SE or plain Perp.
That's good adivce. I use both Perp and SE. I like the versatility though of SE because you can cook up some of your own recipies. A couple scoops of SE + some Enduralytes Power + a little Whey + some cranberry juice and water is pretty darn tasty. A buddy mixes SE and Chocolate Hammer Gel.
I'll also mix SE with some of the tastier electrolyte mixes to add some more calories. My wife picked a whole bunch of packets from a trade show of weird flavors last falll and we ended up mixing these for shorter duration rides, and suprisingly liked them.
But the key is what works for you and only your "gut instinct" will tell you that ~ unfortunately after the fact. The dreaded bloated chicken strut is not anything you ever want to wish on even your enemies.
Also note that Perpetuem contains some extra incredients intended for ultra-endurance - so if you don't like playing Chef, Hammer's own literature will recommend you use Perp.
I prefer Perpetuem mixed about 8 scoops/bottle. This is 4 hours worth of calories for my weight. For me, this has the best flavor and consistency than either a single serving bottle or mixed as a paste in a flask. I find it delicious mixed this way.
I feel sick even when mixed per the directions on the can...It works great for me when mixed half-strength (per directions), and mixed with some other stuff...
I feel sick even when mixed per the directions on the can...It works great for me when mixed half-strength (per directions), and mixed with some other stuff...
Just to clarify, when using a multi-hour bottle, you only take a sip from the bottle and supplement with additional water from your hydration pack or another bottle. My bottle should last me 4 hours. It's a concentrated source of calories. Just like using gels, you have to drink additional water to make the solution readily digestible and to meet your hydration needs.
Most people find it tastes better mixed thick. We all have different preferences. The key is to find what works for you. It takes a little trial and error (ie: time and money) but it's worth it when you find that thing that helps to lessen the suffering!
I go with the multi-hour bottle to. I go 8 scoopes for a 4 hour ride as well. It works great.
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