Deadly traps on Marin County Trails

[danabeck]

Dear Trail Users of Marin County,


Last evening a few friends and I went out to ride a trail in the Cascade Canyon area of Marin called Split Rock. Yes this trail is restricted to bikes, but as we all know, it is a very well known trail and ridden frequently. For those of you who have ridden this trail you know there are many different entrances, most of which are NOT posted as no bikes.

Anyway, as we dropped into the trail we can upon some very nasty and extremely dangerous surprises. First, there were barbed wire fences built across the trail, followed by a big boulders rolled into the middle of the trail. The tops of these barbed wired fences were painted bright orange, so at least unsuspecting trail users could see these blockades as long as they were looking up. The most troubling booby traps came farther down the trail in the tree covered, dark section... The saboteurs had pounded rebar into the trail, spaced every 3 inches, and then BENT the rebar at a 45° angle to point directly at you as you approached it, this rebar was also painted dark green to further camouflage it to the unsuspecting trail users. I did not count the number of booby traps, but I would say there were at least 5-7 different traps extending down the first 100 yards of trail.

There are all sort off issued that arise from vigilanteism/vandalism of this sort, the least of which is trail erosion from users (hikers and bikers) going around the traps and the traps themselves holding water and causing the trail to break away.

I can only speculate who and why someone might vandalize a trail in this way, but in my mind it was done not only to deter mountain bike use, but most alarmingly to INJURE, MAIM OR KILL the bikers that do use it.

In my ten years of trail use (hiking and biking) I have never seen anything like this, and it is clear to me that the “dispute” between trail users has been taken to a whole new and deadly level!

It is no secret that a large portion of mountain bikers in Marin County ride illegally on single track trails, and we all take our chances of being issued tickets for doing so, this is an issue between bikers and law enforcement officials. It certainly seems to me that having “legal” trail users vandalizing trails in order to injure or kill other trail users is a FAR greater offense, and law enforcement officials should be turning there attention not to illegal bike use, but to the people who are doing the true damage to the trails and other people.

Most of us have been verbally,( and some physically) assaulted on the trails of Marin, as “illegal” users we usually try to talk calmly to our assailants or ride away, not wanting to endure the all to familiar rant of the “legal” trail users. I now fear not not only for the bikers who might be injured or killed by these new traps, but for the hikers who might be opening themselves to the same physical violence by angry bikers who are tired of being targeted.

I can not understand why, as adults, all trail users can not come to some sort of agreement on trail use. These acts of violence serve only to escalate the problem and will no doubt end in tragedy for someone.

Please pass this on to anyone who you think can stop this violence.

[baycat]

Hmmmm slippery slope.

[danabeck]

It's time to stop hiding... Everyone know we're out there, but I don't think we should be killed for it.

[levee67]

sick and twisted.

we found half-a-dozen rebars pounded into the stump drop at Joaquin Miller Park in Oakland in 2005. probably took 10 times as long to pound them in as it took to pull them out.

always a good idea to check your landings.

damon

[zon]

Wouldn't you love to catch someone setting these traps?

[slide mon]

Originally Posted by danabeck

Anyway, as we dropped into the trail we can upon some very nasty and extremely dangerous surprises. First, there were barbed wire fences built across the trail, followed by a big boulders rolled into the middle of the trail. The tops of these barbed wired fences were painted bright orange, so at least unsuspecting trail users could see these blockades as long as they were looking up. The most troubling booby traps came farther down the trail in the tree covered, dark section... The saboteurs had pounded rebar into the trail, spaced every 3 inches, and then BENT the rebar at a 45° angle to point directly at you as you approached it, this rebar was also painted dark green to further camouflage it to the unsuspecting trail users. I did not count the number of booby traps, but I would say there were at least 5-7 different traps extending down the first 100 yards of trail.

You should report this to County Open Space officials and the police. That trail is not legal for hiking either as far as I know. Open Space officials have gone to great lengths to catch bikers biking illegally on trails. They should go to greater lengths to prevent people from injuring and or killing people, whether those people are there legally or not.

[danabeck]

YES! That's just the problem... Someone's going to get hurt.

[danabeck]

Thanks, I did!

[0gre]

Originally Posted by danabeck

Dear Trail Users of Marin County,

Everytime I read about this kind of stuff it makes me that much more likely to look east into the foothills and the Sierra for rides. Too many people fighting over too few miles of trails.

[imridingmybike]

Originally Posted by danabeck

Dear Trail Users of Marin County,


Last evening a few friends and I went out to ride a trail in the Cascade Canyon area of Marin called Split Rock. Yes this trail is restricted to bikes, but as we all know, it is a very well known trail and ridden frequently. For those of you who have ridden this trail you know there are many different entrances, most of which are NOT posted as no bikes.

Anyway, as we dropped into the trail we can upon some very nasty and extremely dangerous surprises. First, there were barbed wire fences built across the trail, followed by a big boulders rolled into the middle of the trail. The tops of these barbed wired fences were painted bright orange, so at least unsuspecting trail users could see these blockades as long as they were looking up. The most troubling booby traps came farther down the trail in the tree covered, dark section... The saboteurs had pounded rebar into the trail, spaced every 3 inches, and then BENT the rebar at a 45° angle to point directly at you as you approached it, this rebar was also painted dark green to further camouflage it to the unsuspecting trail users. I did not count the number of booby traps, but I would say there were at least 5-7 different traps extending down the first 100 yards of trail.

There are all sort off issued that arise from vigilanteism/vandalism of this sort, the least of which is trail erosion from users (hikers and bikers) going around the traps and the traps themselves holding water and causing the trail to break away.

I can only speculate who and why someone might vandalize a trail in this way, but in my mind it was done not only to deter mountain bike use, but most alarmingly to INJURE, MAIM OR KILL the bikers that do use it.

In my ten years of trail use (hiking and biking) I have never seen anything like this, and it is clear to me that the “dispute” between trail users has been taken to a whole new and deadly level!

It is no secret that a large portion of mountain bikers in Marin County ride illegally on single track trails, and we all take our chances of being issued tickets for doing so, this is an issue between bikers and law enforcement officials. It certainly seems to me that having “legal” trail users vandalizing trails in order to injure or kill other trail users is a FAR greater offense, and law enforcement officials should be turning there attention not to illegal bike use, but to the people who are doing the true damage to the trails and other people.

Most of us have been verbally,( and some physically) assaulted on the trails of Marin, as “illegal” users we usually try to talk calmly to our assailants or ride away, not wanting to endure the all to familiar rant of the “legal” trail users. I now fear not not only for the bikers who might be injured or killed by these new traps, but for the hikers who might be opening themselves to the same physical violence by angry bikers who are tired of being targeted.

I can not understand why, as adults, all trail users can not come to some sort of agreement on trail use. These acts of violence serve only to escalate the problem and will no doubt end in tragedy for someone.

Please pass this on to anyone who you think can stop this violence.

Thanks dude. I wish it were possible to make your point without specifically stating which trail it was that you were on - but I realize that stating exactly which trail these hazards are on, is more likely to help protect us - than just stating that you found them, but not specifically where. It's a bit of a catch-22.

My assumption is these people feel they are protecting open space - while harming, or attempting to harm people... not good.

[Brah]

Wow - I thought these days were over. I frequently ride the Cascade Canyon / Repack area, and have been doing so for many years. Just about every hiker I've ever spoken to in this area has been friendly and considerate... so such violent acts are very surprising.

It's amazing what depths people will stoop to. The trail may have an Bike off-limits sign, but such violent sabotage is illegal --- and life threatening -- as well.

Looks like I might have some cleanup work to do this weekend.

[danabeck]

If anyone goes up there, can you PLEASE take photos and post them... I did not have my camera last night, but this stuff needs to be documented!

Thanks

[nachomc]

Originally Posted by 0gre

Everytime I read about this kind of stuff it makes me that much more likely to look east into the foothills and the Sierra for rides. Too many people fighting over too few miles of trails.

Not that I agree with people putting down booby traps to injure riders, but he was riding on trails that he knows don't allow bikes. Do these traps or obstacles appear on trails where bikes are allowed?

[imridingmybike]

Originally Posted by sonicsuby

Not that I agree with people putting down booby traps to injure riders, but he was riding on trails that he knows don't allow bikes. Do these traps or obstacles appear on trails where bikes are allowed?

OK - so the next time I see you Jaywalking, it'll be perfectly reasonable to harpoon you, then?

This autta be fun!

[danabeck]

...Funny thing is, that this trail was originally built by bikers, and then was "officially" recognized as a hikers only trail.

Just think of all the great multi-use trails we could build if they would only let us!

BTW, I'm not a dude, but a dudette.

[anchskier]

Originally Posted by danabeck

Dear Trail Users of Marin County,


Last evening a few friends and I went out to ride a trail in the Cascade Canyon area of Marin called Split Rock. Yes this trail is restricted to bikes, but as we all know, it is a very well known trail and ridden frequently. For those of you who have ridden this trail you know there are many different entrances, most of which are NOT posted as no bikes.

Anyway, as we dropped into the trail we can upon some very nasty and extremely dangerous surprises. First, there were barbed wire fences built across the trail, followed by a big boulders rolled into the middle of the trail. The tops of these barbed wired fences were painted bright orange, so at least unsuspecting trail users could see these blockades as long as they were looking up. The most troubling booby traps came farther down the trail in the tree covered, dark section... The saboteurs had pounded rebar into the trail, spaced every 3 inches, and then BENT the rebar at a 45° angle to point directly at you as you approached it, this rebar was also painted dark green to further camouflage it to the unsuspecting trail users. I did not count the number of booby traps, but I would say there were at least 5-7 different traps extending down the first 100 yards of trail.

There are all sort off issued that arise from vigilanteism/vandalism of this sort, the least of which is trail erosion from users (hikers and bikers) going around the traps and the traps themselves holding water and causing the trail to break away.

I can only speculate who and why someone might vandalize a trail in this way, but in my mind it was done not only to deter mountain bike use, but most alarmingly to INJURE, MAIM OR KILL the bikers that do use it.

In my ten years of trail use (hiking and biking) I have never seen anything like this, and it is clear to me that the “dispute” between trail users has been taken to a whole new and deadly level!

It is no secret that a large portion of mountain bikers in Marin County ride illegally on single track trails, and we all take our chances of being issued tickets for doing so, this is an issue between bikers and law enforcement officials. It certainly seems to me that having “legal” trail users vandalizing trails in order to injure or kill other trail users is a FAR greater offense, and law enforcement officials should be turning there attention not to illegal bike use, but to the people who are doing the true damage to the trails and other people.

Most of us have been verbally,( and some physically) assaulted on the trails of Marin, as “illegal” users we usually try to talk calmly to our assailants or ride away, not wanting to endure the all to familiar rant of the “legal” trail users. I now fear not not only for the bikers who might be injured or killed by these new traps, but for the hikers who might be opening themselves to the same physical violence by angry bikers who are tired of being targeted.

I can not understand why, as adults, all trail users can not come to some sort of agreement on trail use. These acts of violence serve only to escalate the problem and will no doubt end in tragedy for someone.

Please pass this on to anyone who you think can stop this violence.

I have to say that I am glad I live in Alaska. The biking community up here does not support or participate in poaching of off-limits trails for the most part. Yes, there are a few people here and there who do not respect the rules of the trail, but they are no in the majority and typically, they don't bring it up in casual conversation as they will likely be looked down on by the other bikers. Most of the biking community up here has come to the realization that the bad publicity they get from poaching off-limits trails severely hurts their efforts to gain legal access to new and existing trails around the area. Many people spend a lot of time and effort to work for legal access to these trails. It only takes a few "bad eggs" to give the rest of us a bad image where the other user groups won't help.

I think a result of following the rules for the most part is that the other users have not felt any need to get agressive in keeping us off.

[slide mon]

Originally Posted by sonicsuby

Not that I agree with people putting down booby traps to injure riders, but he was riding on trails that he knows don't allow bikes. Do these traps or obstacles appear on trails where bikes are allowed?

So he deserves to be maimed by a pychopathic vigilante? Your post is so ridiculous I can barely believe I replied to it.

[jrm]

Originally Posted by sonicsuby

Not that I agree with people putting down booby traps to injure riders, but he was riding on trails that he knows don't allow bikes. Do these traps or obstacles appear on trails where bikes are allowed?

the next time you break the speed limit anmd are caught the cops can beat the crap outta ya..and giove you a ticket

[nachomc]

Originally Posted by slide mon

So he deserves to be maimed by a pychopathic vigilante? Your post is so ridiculous I can barely believe I replied to it.

I think you guys are misunderstanding my post, and then doing the old slippery slope thing to scare yourselves.

I was actually responding to 0gre who said this kind of stuff makes him worried to ride anywhere in the Bay Area. The point of the post was "don't be afraid to ride in the bay - stupid people are doing this on trails where bikers shouldn't be riding in the first place". I then asked if it's happening also on trails where biking is allowed.

The intent there was to show that if people aren't doing this on trails where biking is allowed, that it's not dangerous to ride in the bay (in regards to being maimed by trail-use vigilantes) if you just stay off the trails you're not supposed to be on in the first place. Again, it's not ok to put booby traps down, don't put words in my mouth, but I don't think a rider would need to be concerned about these traps on trails where biking is allowed.

Is that clear enough?

[baycat]

Hope no one is injured.

[SVSocrates]

I guess I'll not be riding that trail afterall. If one of us does bring a camera, we'll hike down and photograph the biker maiming/killing "additions" to the trail.

[jrm]

leave your message, attention Chris Bramham – Open Space Superintendent..

[levee67]

don't forget the other user groups:

equestrians
trail runners
bobcats, mtn lions
deer
low-flying, unlucky birds

who also may (or may not) use the booby-trapped trail.

damon

[fat_weasel]

Originally Posted by imridingmybike

OK - so the next time I see you Jaywalking, it'll be perfectly reasonable to harpoon you, then?

This autta be fun!

I'd call that Post of the Day.

[ricebowls]

I have to say that I am glad I live in Alaska. The biking community up here does not support or participate in poaching of off-limits trails for the most part. Yes, there are a few people here and there who do not respect the rules of the trail, but they are no in the majority and typically, they don't bring it up in casual conversation as they will likely be looked down on by the other bikers. Most of the biking community up here has come to the realization that the bad publicity they get from poaching off-limits trails severely hurts their efforts to gain legal access to new and existing trails around the area. Many people spend a lot of time and effort to work for legal access to these trails. It only takes a few "bad eggs" to give the rest of us a bad image where the other user groups won't help.

I think a result of following the rules for the most part is that the other users have not felt any need to get agressive in keeping us off.

I glad this works for you guys in Alaska.

[nachomc]

Originally Posted by ricebowls

I glad this works for you guys in Alaska.

Not being a rule-breaking ass-hat should work for everyone everywhere

[bigboulder]

It is unlikely that the folks that did this are advocates for any trail user group. The folks that did this are more than likely just the run of the mill Ultra Passive Aggressive Sociopathic D!ckwads that are very common in the Bay Area. In their belief system they are always right and the ends ALWAYS justify the means. They get sick pleassure out of causing others pain and they always have some psychobable explanation why you deserved the pain they inflicted....like..."those trails are off limits to bikes" so....you get waht you deserve...unfortunatly there are those among us who buy right into this and are willing to make excuses for this kind of behavior.

I learned a lot of good lessons when I was young....like Never Start a Fight...but if someone else starts one with you and you know they mean to harm you then use all available means to fight back.

Just Think About It. The folks who did this were probably laughing their asses off thinking of you impailed by a shaft of rebar. They are OK with killing you to make their point.

[bigboulder]

Originally Posted by sonicsuby

Not being a rule-breaking ass-hat should work for everyone everywhere

Drive over the speed limit? Always use your blinkers...even when there are no other cars around? That is what I thought....your a rule breaking ass-hat too. Have a great weekend.

[jrm]

BB i like that one..

[jorgemonkey]

I love how they get pissed we ride on the trails, and that we cause supposedly cause so much trail damage, and so to stop us, what do they do? damage the trails.

I'm sorry, but if I ever get injured in ANY trap someone sets, the cops better find the person before I do.

[nachomc]

Originally Posted by bigboulder

Drive over the speed limit? Always use your blinkers...even when there are no other cars around? That is what I thought....your a rule breaking ass-hat too. Have a great weekend.

Oooh, wicked burn. And it's "you're", ass-hat.

[velocipus]

Originally Posted by anchskier

I have to say that I am glad I live in Alaska. The biking community up here does not support or participate in poaching of off-limits trails for the most part. Yes, there are a few people here and there who do not respect the rules of the trail, but they are no in the majority and typically, they don't bring it up in casual conversation as they will likely be looked down on by the other bikers. Most of the biking community up here has come to the realization that the bad publicity they get from poaching off-limits trails severely hurts their efforts to gain legal access to new and existing trails around the area. Many people spend a lot of time and effort to work for legal access to these trails. It only takes a few "bad eggs" to give the rest of us a bad image where the other user groups won't help.

I think a result of following the rules for the most part is that the other users have not felt any need to get agressive in keeping us off.

Betcha Nite Rider, Light N Motion, et al do stellar business up there this time of year... I've never had to ride with spikes and a parka.

guess I feel pretty lucky to live in California.
Now if you'll excuse me, it's 60 degrees, overcast and the trails are like velcro right now. I think I'll go for a ride

[Random Drivel]

Originally Posted by danabeck

It is no secret that a large portion of mountain bikers in Marin County ride illegally on single track trails, and we all take our chances of being issued tickets for doing so, this is an issue between bikers and law enforcement officials

First of all, thank you for positng this, Imagine what would have happended if someone had run across that stuff on a night ride (illegal, I know).

But I don’t agree that a large portion of Mtn. bikers in Marin ride illegally. Some, for sure. But I don’t think the numbers are huge. If it was a huge problem you would see more trail closures.

By the way, you know this trail is closed to bikes, so you knew your were breaking the law. It is exaclty that type of behavior that gets trails closed.

Originally Posted by bigboulder

It is unlikely that the folks that did this are advocates for any trail user group. The folks that did this are more than likely just the run of the mill Ultra Passive Aggressive Sociopathic D!ckwads that are very common in the Bay Area

Marin is populated by an extremely aggressive subspecies of this creature, unfortunately. They seem to be more prevalent in South Marin—The closer you get to Mt. Tam, the more they seem to pop up. I hardly ever ride Tam for this reason.

I have a buddy that works for County open Space, I’ll mention it to him and see what he says.

[JMac47]

Originally Posted by danabeck

...BTW, I'm not a dude, but a dudette.

You related to a "dude" Dana Beck from the San Rafael area?? Went to school with someone w/same name (graduated '75, you his daughter maybe?), just checking.

On topic now, I remember some similar sabotage a few years back on a couple China Camp trails on the 7-11/JCC side of Santa Venetia. Fish line w/hooks etc. Crazy.

Thanks for the heads up.


JMac

[SCTreeHugger]

Unfortunately for the Bay Area most good trails are "illegal" and would never be made legal no matter how much advocacy work is done.

You know its bad when mentions of certain Santa Cruz trails pop up in the current issue of Bike.

[chudaman]

I do not condone the vigilanteism, nor do I think that two wrongs make a right. However, it really comes off as hypocritical when someone who is breaking rules complains about someone else breaking rules. YOUR RULE-BREAKING CAUSED MORE RULE BREAKING. Sure, it is escalating. But why can't you take responsibility for your actions?
You are as lame as George Bush complaining about the Iraqis using unfair tactics in war.
You discredit mountain bikers who at least try to obey rules and try to make mountain biking an enjoyable SHARED experience. Your selfish perspective kinda pisses me off, luckily i am heading out right now to relax and ride a legal trail...

[mhykhelle]

where the biggest problem is finding folks to build more trails and trying to figure out which trail to ride next (and no pungy bars either!!). No one to look down their noses at you like Alaska either! We have the reverse problem out here as the land managers are hungry for trail builders and mountain bikers have proven to be the best!

I'd be willing to bet that if the truly avid riders did not ride the special trails, you'd have a serious overload on the multi use trails. I'd hate to see my girl impaled because she wants a relatively close, challenging trail to ride. I think it is great that the majority stick to the basic trails but it seems the majority rules and the majoirty are typically happy with mediocrity, ala Walmart & W (unless you actually count numbers). Aren't you folks tired of being closed out of the gems? You do have many great multi use trails, but you need more access and I have only been riding out there for a year and a half on occasional visits.

Viva change and rocking the boat!! Get out there and vote. Be active and let the land managers know you are out there.

[hobbers]

Originally Posted by chudaman

I do not condone the vigilanteism, nor do I think that two wrongs make a right. However, it really comes off as hypocritical when someone who is breaking rules complains about someone else breaking rules. YOUR RULE-BREAKING CAUSED MORE RULE BREAKING. Sure, it is escalating. But why can't you take responsibility for your actions?
You are as lame as George Bush complaining about the Iraqis using unfair tactics in war.
You discredit mountain bikers who at least try to obey rules and try to make mountain biking an enjoyable SHARED experience. Your selfish perspective kinda pisses me off, luckily i am heading out right now to relax and ride a legal trail...

As others have already stated, this isn't exactly an eye for an eye. If these vigilantes instead threw tacks on the trails to pop mtb tires ... then maybe you have a point.

But this is more like me flicking you in the back of the head with my finger, and then you turning around and shooting me with an assault rifle.

[0gre]

Originally Posted by chudaman

I do not condone the vigilanteism, nor do I think that two wrongs make a right. However, it really comes off as hypocritical when someone who is breaking rules complains about someone else breaking rules. YOUR RULE-BREAKING CAUSED MORE RULE BREAKING. Sure, it is escalating. But why can't you take responsibility for your actions?
You are as lame as George Bush complaining about the Iraqis using unfair tactics in war.
You discredit mountain bikers who at least try to obey rules and try to make mountain biking an enjoyable SHARED experience. Your selfish perspective kinda pisses me off, luckily i am heading out right now to relax and ride a legal trail...

Laws are arbitrary constructs and I really don't feel that laws that don't make sense don't need to be observed. What kind of moral system equates installing booby traps which will maim or kill people with riding a section of dirt which someone arbitrarily declared is off limits?

[zorg]

Originally Posted by Random Drivel

By the way, you know this trail is closed to bikes, so you knew your were breaking the law. It is exaclty that type of behavior that gets trails closed.

One could argue that closing trails to bike is what forces people to poach.

Bottom line, some a..hole is trying hurt somebody for riding his/her bike on a piece of public land, where, if the powers that be used a wee bit of common sense, the bikes should be legal in the first place.

Hopefully, the rangers will find the econazi (there you go, I fulfilled the nazi rule) before somebody gets hurt.

[ricebowls]

deleted

[anchskier]

Originally Posted by 0gre

Laws are arbitrary constructs and I really don't feel that laws that don't make sense don't need to be observed. What kind of moral system equates installing booby traps which will maim or kill people with riding a section of dirt which someone arbitrarily declared is off limits?

I don't think anybody in here has ever equated installing booby traps with poaching a trail. What they have said is that if people were not illegally riding on the trails in the first place, the extremists would have never thought of installing the booby traps. It's cause and effect. They may not be equal, but one is definitely a result of the other.

[zorg]

Originally Posted by anchskier

I don't think anybody in here has ever equated installing booby traps with poaching a trail. What they have said is that if people were not illegally riding on the trails in the first place, the extremists would have never thought of installing the booby traps. It's cause and effect. They may not be equal, but one is definitely a result of the other.

Even if that's the case, I just don't see your point. It's not helping furthering the mountain biking cause. At best, it's giving in to extremists, at worst, you're justifying their actions.

[heywood jablome]

So if I don't like someone or what they stand for, I guess I shall just go beat the snot out of them. Right.. If people want to poach trails, it shall be up to the authorities to deal with them, not the sh*tballs setting up the traps. Prolly some kid f*&%ing around thinking they are funny.

http://3bicoastalboys.blogspot.com/index.html

[Melt]

wow thats crazy .... i havent poached marin very much cause when i lived in the bay i lived in napa so i wasnt a local, so the only times i got to see other trails is when people showed me em. Thats nuts though.

I heard rumors that back in the 90s there was someone doing something similar on the backside of china camp with fishing line and such .... and now aptly im told that trail is called "hitler"

i commend the thread starter for starting this thread, he may have saved someones life, and for all you guys saying its ok that they sabotaged the trail, tell me why there is currently a guy in prison in washington serving 10 years for shooting two guys for trying to steal his WRX. I thought it was ok?

[imridingmybike]

Originally Posted by Melt

wow thats crazy .... i havent poached marin very much cause when i lived in the bay i lived in napa so i wasnt a local, so the only times i got to see other trails is when people showed me em. Thats nuts though.

I heard rumors that back in the 90s there was someone doing something similar on the backside of china camp with fishing line and such .... and now aptly im told that trail is called "hitler"

i commend the thread starter for starting this thread, he may have saved someones life, and for all you guys saying its ok that they sabotaged the trail, tell me why there is currently a guy in prison in washington serving 10 years for shooting two guys for trying to steal his WRX. I thought it was ok?

I think it is in all our best interests to go gay. This way, any act of violence against us will be ruled a hate crime!

Who's in?!?

[novato kid]

Uh oh another trap set on a trail in Marin.........time to release my steam.

Facts: Marin County has one of the highest MTB population densities per capita in the United States. It is the birthplace of mountain biking. It is also one of the most prohibitive counties to mountain biking in the nation. There are NO legal single track trails in the marin County Open Space and Water Districts. Of the fire roads that permit mountain biking, speeds are limited to 5-15 mph (walking and jogging speed.) There are 4th amendment rights violations going on in Marin. Marin County Open Space directors are instructing rangers to follow and track mountain bikers on legal fire roads. I'm a victim of that. This is called "profiling." It is in violation of our fourth amendment rights. Further, there's evidence that they are targeting mountain bikers, while ignoring other trail violators (dog owners, horseback riders). This also is in violation. They are not equally applying and enforcing their laws. I and more than 30 riders have been assulted by joggers while on bikes. Rangers have been informed of these incidents and there have been no arrests. I have personally come across 6 booby trapped trails in the past year. We're talking fish wire, sticks at neck level and branches set to spring -- all intent on seriously injuring bikers. That's a felony. I have personally witnessed rangers putting logs on a blind turn and blocking trails in a way which would hurt a cyclist. I have spent hours talking to rangers and providing information on how other cities have effectively created shared use policies on trails quite effectively. There is no interest in considering these approaches here. I've been told so. I feel like I live in the deep South in the 1940s before the Civil Rights Movement. There were many people who did not want Rosa Parks riding on their bus but thankfully there were laws in this country granting her equal rights. Guess what folks - the laws are there to protect us to.

Steam released- Ryan

[Melt]

its funny .... if i replaced marin county with california, replaced mountain biking with import car enthausiasts, replaced rangers with california highway patrol, and changed a few other things id have a pretty good description of the profiling that goes on with modified japanese cars.

[Carl Hungus]

Originally Posted by novato kid

I feel like I live in the deep South in the 1940s before the Civil Rights Movement. There were many people who did not want Rosa Parks riding on their bus but thankfully there were laws in this country granting her equal rights.
Steam released- Ryan

Ummmm...Rosa Parks on the bus equals you on your mountain bike?!? I'm glad we have our perspective here. I'm also glad I don't live in Marin.

[0gre]

Originally Posted by anchskier

I don't think anybody in here has ever equated installing booby traps with poaching a trail. What they have said is that if people were not illegally riding on the trails in the first place, the extremists would have never thought of installing the booby traps. It's cause and effect. They may not be equal, but one is definitely a result of the other.

This is like saying that road rage is the result of people breaking the speed limit. It is absolutely NOT cause and effect it it one person with homicidal tendencies acting on them using the veil of another persons wrongdoing as a sort of token justification. When someone cuts you off in traffic does that cause someone to flip out and shoot them? No, the guy being a f*cking nut case causes him to act in a way that is destructive to other people.

[jrm]

Originally Posted by imridingmybike

I think it is in all our best interests to go gay. This way, any act of violence against us will be ruled a hate crime!

Who's in?!?

and then you can tell us what its like..

[pacman]

In Alaska Moose and Grizzlies take care of poachers.

[twistgripper]

NK, not so....
Wagon Wheel was "adopted" by Open Space as a bike legal single track, consistent with its creation....Wagon Wheel has existed for years with no problems....ironic, you can see the closed trail in question from there....
China Camp State Park is swarmed with bikes on the weekends, and they are feeling the pressure.
This isn't the time to lash out at the agencies. They only respond to complaints. People complain about dogs and bikes, the land managers step up enforcement to put the fire out.
We really need all oars in the water here, to work WITH land managers to open more trails.
Join your local advocacy group (www.btcmarin.org) and be part of the solution.

If you want your share of PUBLIC land, stop blowing past hikers, riding closed trails, racing around blind turns.......and there will be few complaints about bikes.

Originally Posted by novato kid

Facts: Marin County has one of the highest MTB population densities per capita in the United States. It is the birthplace of mountain biking. It is also one of the most prohibitive counties to mountain biking in the nation. There are NO legal single track trails in the marin County Open Space and Water Districts............ Further, there's evidence that they are targeting mountain bikers, while ignoring other trail violators (dog owners, horseback riders). This also is in violation. They are not equally applying and enforcing their laws.

[Melt]

ok so marin has a grand total of what like 4 legal single track trails?

all i can think of is china camp
tamarancho
that one on tam that starts by some hotel and ends up in mill valley (dont know the name, crashmaster showed me it and mentioned that it is legit)
and now this wagon wheel trail

[Biker_Scout_Sparky]

i've got an idea,
How about someone start a "booby-trapped trails (legal or illegal) " thread?
Danabeck, since your's is the first & best example how about you do it. keep the descriptions simple (trailname, location, booby-trap description, bike legal/illegal etc.)
if we get a list going, maybe we can share it with hiker and equestrian and trail maintenance organizations to clean up such booby-traps before anyone gets hurt (including the booby-trappers)

while, yes, it is wrong and dangerous to ride illegal trails but booby trapping a trail is uncalled for and solves nothing. If someone gets hurt on an obviously booby-trapped trail i hope the fool who did it leaves enough evidence behind to be sued or at least found and terrorized.

[twistgripper]

Actually, Wagon Wheel was "adopted" from the Tamarancho loop when Open Space bought the land from the Boy Scouts...
You could argue that there are some "narrow" fireroad/trails in the Water Disctrict that have been working for years....BTW, have you ever tried riding any road or trail on EBMUD land? You can't cause it's all closed all the time. So MMWD isn't so bad then....
Also, there is the Olema Valley Trail, Miwok Trail and ?.....

Originally Posted by Melt

ok so marin has a grand total of what like 4 legal single track trails?
all i can think of is china camp
tamarancho
that one on tam that starts by some hotel and ends up in mill valley (dont know the name, crashmaster showed me it and mentioned that it is legit)
and now this wagon wheel trail

[SVSocrates]

Originally Posted by imridingmybike

Who's in?!?

Don't you really mean, Who's out?

[budgie]

OK .... calmed down now ... & removed angry comments from earlier.

Carry on.

[imridingmybike]

Originally Posted by jrm

and then you can tell us what its like..

Dude, it's the perfect overarching, all encompassing defence! Nothing will confuse the econazi idiocrasy like brazen cries of homophobism!

Either that, or we start "The TerraFirmist Church of Two Wheeled Salvation". Mass is held in the mountains and spiritual hadj's are mandatory! Now supplicate yourselves to Mnt Kawa Kum and give thanks!

Better yet - we can make it a double hate crime by combining to two! (edit) this defence is only to be used in the most egregious acts of trail side spiritualism

[Fairfaxian]

A few years back I saw monofilament fishing line had been strung accross a steep rocky section of San Geronimo ridge -fire road. There is a lot of hatred out there. Don't fan the flames. When wars start we only lose. There are those on both sides that always wake up angry. I try to keep a low profile and not piss peple off. But honestly I don't know what I would do if things ever got physical.

[RadChad]

Originally Posted by sonicsuby

I think you guys are misunderstanding my post, and then doing the old slippery slope thing to scare yourselves.

I was actually responding to 0gre who said this kind of stuff makes him worried to ride anywhere in the Bay Area. The point of the post was "don't be afraid to ride in the bay - stupid people are doing this on trails where bikers shouldn't be riding in the first place". I then asked if it's happening also on trails where biking is allowed.

The intent there was to show that if people aren't doing this on trails where biking is allowed, that it's not dangerous to ride in the bay (in regards to being maimed by trail-use vigilantes) if you just stay off the trails you're not supposed to be on in the first place. Again, it's not ok to put booby traps down, don't put words in my mouth, but I don't think a rider would need to be concerned about these traps on trails where biking is allowed.

Is that clear enough?

A rider should not need to be concerned about traps on ANY trails.

[67degrees]

The last time I rode Mt. Tam I was riding up a fire road(legal) and was confronted by a group of hikers. I said hello as I always do to other people on the trail and they just went off on me with their wild rants of how I was destroying the trails and disturebing their space. I was really caught off guard. They got louder and more abussive till one guy picked up a fallen tree branch and tried to hit me in the head with it. I wasn't yelling anything back at them up to that point. I rode on to get away from these maniacs. I had a similar experience from a couple of dykes in Berkeley at Tilden Park also riding a legal trail.

I mostly ride Joaquin Miller Park in Oakland now and have come across booby trapped trails numerous times on legal trails. Once it was a very thin wire running across the trail about 4' up. That could easily kill someone. Fortunately I saw it because the late afternoon sun was shining on the wire. I've found rocks and logs piled up on the backside of jumps more times than I can count. You would never see them from the front side. So, I always check before I leap. If I ever come upon one of these jerks doing this it is not going to be pretty. I hear of an old math professor from Cal is the one behind a lot of this. I think he is not alone.

I

[twistgripper]

Check out this case from Los Gatos a little while back....maybe this is what the "law" would do if they caught em'.....

http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/9238886/detail.html

Originally Posted by Fairfaxian

A few years back I saw monofilament fishing line had been strung accross a steep rocky section of San Geronimo ridge -fire road. There is a lot of hatred out there. Don't fan the flames. When wars start we only lose. There are those on both sides that always wake up angry. I try to keep a low profile and not piss peple off. But honestly I don't know what I would do if things ever got physical.

[schwaggy]

. . . My family and I are moving to the Bay Area this summer and we're all avid mountain bikers. I'm seriously concerned for their well-being when we go riding. Does this kinda stuff happen frequently? Are the trails on the Peninsula "safer"? What the hell is going on?!?

[danabeck]

Unbelievable that highly educated people would participate in such hooligan behavior. The pack mentality of some hiking groups is also quite animalistic.

I rode today in Annadel St. Park where all the trails are multi use... Hikers, horse riders, runners and bikers all get along, and no pungi sticks waiting to skewer me!

[Melt]

Originally Posted by schwaggy

. . . My family and I are moving to the Bay Area this summer and we're all avid mountain bikers. I'm seriously concerned for their well-being when we go riding. Does this kinda stuff happen frequently? Are the trails on the Peninsula "safer"? What the hell is going on?!?

generally this is only in the marin area and some places in the east bay. For the most part the bay area is rider friendly. Espeically north bay places like annadel, rockville, las posadas forest, and oat hill

[velocipus]

Originally Posted by twistgripper

Check out this case from Los Gatos a little while back....maybe this is what the "law" would do if they caught em'.....

http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/9238886/detail.html

Please tell me those f$%ckers are sitting in jail right now!

[105millimetersofpleasure]

--- some psychobable explanation why you deserved the pain they inflicted....like..."those trails are off limits to bikes"

Hmmm... Maybe I should brush up on my Freud.

[dvo]

Originally Posted by Biker_Scout_Sparky

I've got an idea,
How about someone start a "booby-trapped trails (legal or illegal) " thread?
Danabeck, since your's is the first & best example how about you do it. keep the descriptions simple (trail name, location, booby-trap description, bike legal/illegal etc.)
if we get a list going, maybe we can share it with hiker and equestrian and trail maintenance organizations to clean up such booby-traps before anyone gets hurt (including the booby-trappers)

while, yes, it is wrong and dangerous to ride illegal trails but booby trapping a trail is uncalled for and solves nothing. If someone gets hurt on an obviously booby-trapped trail i hope the fool who did it leaves enough evidence behind to be sued or at least found and terrorized.

not only should we have a sticky for booby trapped trails we should also try to use that information to hopefully try to catch one of these criminals in the act. there is absolutely no justification for someone to attempt to injure someone riding a bike ( legally or not ).
interesting threads here......http://bb.nsmb.com/showthread.php?t=893

[proto2000]

As far as hikers go, "Hit them all and let God seperate the good from the bad". I have had too many run ins with them on multi-use trails and did the right thing only to be told that we are unwanted on "their" trails. Pissy Pants to all trail walkers if they are in my way. I hope that these idiots who want to hurt all are caught soon because even if a trail is closed to bikes it is still open to wheelchairs and people in them. Can you imagine a poor fellow smokin down the trail on his kick ass chair and taking a jump then hitting rebar? Lights out buddy. How unfair is that you ignorant pukes who do this? You have the ability of your legs to jump those obsticles, they don't. So you are only hurting them you mean person/*******/jerk. I usually don't vent on any of these sites but this crime is bad. Take my stabs at the bad guys with a little humor because if you encounter the booby traps, only they will laugh. I hate most hikers and horsey people, am old, bike and will kick your ass if you piss me off. If you see these things on the trail, destroy them then tell us about it. Oh, by the way, we were all young before, they are probably the ones who are using the trails illegally, more power to you youngens for doing what we all have done in our youth.

A pissed off Old F*ck

[Random Drivel]

Originally Posted by 0gre

Laws are arbitrary constructs and I really don't feel that laws that don't make sense don't need to be observed. What kind of moral system equates installing booby traps which will maim or kill people with riding a section of dirt which someone arbitrarily declared is off limits?

Do me a favor, post your address so I can come over and use your stuff. Private property laws are such arbitrary constructs . . . .

Originally Posted by zorg

One could argue that closing trails to bike is what forces people to poach.

Bottom line, some a..hole is trying hurt somebody for riding his/her bike on a piece of public land, where, if the powers that be used a wee bit of common sense, the bikes should be legal in the first place.

And you could also argue that locking up banks is what causes people to rob them.

But I agree--the bottom line is that someone out there made a deliberate attempt to hurt someone.

And yes, some of these trails should be opened to cyclists . . .

[Random Drivel]

Originally Posted by dvo

not only should we have a sticky for booby trapped trails we should also try to use that information to hopefully try to catch one of these criminals in the act. there is absolutely no justification for someone to attempt to injure someone riding a bike ( legally or not ).
interesting threads here......http://bb.nsmb.com/showthread.php?t=893

Perhaps we could also include info about angry militant hikers as well? I know I have run across a few of them on Tam . . .Wouldn't mind sharing that info with others--heck, i'd take a picture of the jerk and post it. We should also post phone #s of people we could report abuse to . . .

[nachomc]

Originally Posted by RadChad

A rider should not need to be concerned about traps on ANY trails.

Thank you for supporting my position.

[Cycledelic]

I've been more glued to this thread than when I watched OJ run - because it's trail terrorism, because it brings up all the conflict I thought was tapering off, because it's my hometown, and because I'm in disbelief over some of the close-minded comments here. (I guess you have to be familiar enough with Marin issues to understand just what's at stake).

I hope that someone can get up there and take photos of the evidence! I'd have been up there first thing Saturday if I wasn't all beaten up. We need proof in order to take this to the next level.

What might that level be? My guess is to bring in the folks at Access4Bikes (http://www.access4bikes.com) to see what kind of next steps they recommend taking. An organization like that should be able to mobilize more effectively and suggest how we can best turn this attack into a win for the mountain bike community (if only to win the "hearts and minds" of other trail users). I'd volunteer to make a move here, but I think this would be a lot more effective if done by someone who actually encountered the traps.

Dana, I'm happy to hear that your crew were able to avoid injury. But I'm really bummed to hear that there's trouble brewing again. Have the Van-demons and Ill-valars returned to haunt our hills? I hope this isn't the first in a spate of similar traps on other trails.

Please be conscious and careful on the trails - and discrete on the boards. There's usually no good reason to mention biker trails by name in MTBR posts (present case excluded). These posts are archived in perpetuity (or until Francis' money runs out!) and will only hurt us in the longrun. And PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE don't track "those" trails on Geoladders!!!!!!

Haters troll here too. Roll with love.

[67degrees]

Unfortunately, most of these folks are the product of higher education and consider themselves to be ultra left-leaning. It's kind of a spin on eco-terrorism. As P.J. O'Rourke once said, "Socialism is just stupidity sent to college".

[NoBalance]

Originally Posted by Carl Hungus

Ummmm...Rosa Parks on the bus equals you on your mountain bike?!? I'm glad we have our perspective here. I'm also glad I don't live in Marin.

Its just an analogy. He isnt saying they're 100% similar.

Did Rosa Parks almost get killed by riding in the front of the bus, or maimed? Doubt it, or anything close.

So no, they are not similar but the concept is the same. Don't get your panties in a knot just because someone seems to be comparing his mountain biking to your precious Rosa Parks.

[FoggyGoggles]

...Or take it to F88. If you know who did it, why don't you inform the authorities so that we can get these felons off the trails?

Originally Posted by 67degrees

Unfortunately, most of these folks are the product of higher education and consider themselves to be ultra left-leaning. ...

[SHIVER ME TIMBERS]

Originally Posted by danabeck

...Funny thing is, that this trail was originally built by bikers, and then was "officially" recognized as a hikers only trail.

Just think of all the great multi-use trails we could build if they would only let us!

BTW, I'm not a dude, but a dudette.

go to city council or the park district and start to get it opened for bikers...since it was originally made by bikers

[MarkMass]

This sabotage reminds me of an organization called Wheeled Locusts and the Middlesex Fells just north of Boston. "Wheeled Locusts" refers to the mountain bikers who ride at the Fells. That's how they felt about us out there. Shortly after they organized, traps started being discovered in the park. Never mind that the Fells is pretty much meant for families and beginners.

I used to be a member of the Sierra Club when I was out east, but I had to withdraw my support and membership after moving out there and finding out about their mission to outlaw all mountain biking everywhere.

Whomever is setting up these traps is probably reading this and other message board. The Wheeled Locusts organization was and probably is still monitoring the boards out east so they can find the best times to set-up their traps (like just before organized rides). The Sierra Club is probably monitoring this board archiving information they can use to shut-down mountain biking.

[pimpbot]

Originally Posted by mhykhelle

where the biggest problem is finding folks to build more trails and trying to figure out which trail to ride next (and no pungy bars either!!).

http://www.azdailysun.com/articles/2...27_news_14.txt

I don't think this is unique to California or even Marin. I don't even think this is that widely held a way of thinking. I think it only takes one or two nut cases in any particular county to make this a the kind of problem everybody hears about.

[Dirt_Diggler]

that's real funny.....the irony, not the actual happenings.

[johnnyb]

Anyone remember the guy who was building some singletrack up on Bolinas ridge when he was arrested in 2004? I have never met him but, this guy has made many of these "singletracks" in the central Marin area and has been influential and contributed a lot to QUALITY Marin MTBing, good or bad. I think he may still be in jail or on probation. They, the law and locals want their victims to justify their complaints.

Mountain bikers and road bikers are just about equal to roadkill in the eyes of our local officials. Case in point; CeCe Krone, as nice a person anyone could imagine, gets killed by a drunk driver at the top of Nicasio Road in San Geronimo. The woman driver is charged with vehicular manslaughter and I think is out and walking around now. She showed little remorse, and she had children in the car at the time. There were no skid marks. Several more cyclists have died since 1999 out in West Marin and I haven't seen a single thing done about it. The only complaints I have read or heard is that roadies don't obey traffic laws, don't ride single file and they slow down the speed of traffic. There's no love here, folks.

Vandalism or not, this illegal trail thing in Marin is what are making hikers and rangers crazy. As Cycledelic said, Michael J. Vandeman and the Terri Alvilar (google these peeps) of the trail-nazi crew look on this site all the time as well as others. They enjoy reading our reactionary statements and just wait until we mention something again. By the way, they show up at MMWD planning meetings too and post on many discussion sites.

As a local, I see fireroads and doubletrack in Marin get messed up with branches and rocks at switchbacks and blind corners all the time. I've also seen the watershed rangers riding ATVs on the fireroads and doubletrack and I was followed by one recently as I approached a little something off a fireroad and he stopped right in front of it and waited till I passed.

Basically, Split Rock is an illegal trail for bikes. It was a cool thing for a long time, and by the time the "no bikes" signs went up, that was the end of it. People (me included) who have posted descriptions and photos of these singletracks on this board and others have contributed to the decline of trail access.

We have vandalism on a biker-made illegal bike trail that the rangers don't like and some hikers know about. The priority is not with law enforcement or the caring arms of the open space people. Just be safe and lookout for yourself and buddies and lets pull all that f@cking sh!t up and keep an eye out for this person or persons.

I'll go back in my corner now. Thanks for reading.

[Dirt_Diggler]

so, i used to do stuff like this when i was like 6. i remember i would put a hole through a coke can and then put a string across the road with one end tied to a tree. when cars would approach i would pull the string tight and the coke can would fly up into the air and scare the drivers. that same year i thought it would be funny if i shot at cyclists with my slingshot. well, i hit one in the head- he was wearing a helmet (phew) and we thought it was so funny until he came over and found us hiding in the back of a pickup truck. he threated us in the "i'm older than you" kind of way and i ended up telling him where i lived. he took me home and told my parents. i got spanked for that. i never did it again, and now, every once in awhile when i'm on my bike i think about karma coming back and spanking me for that again. this, this is not karma coming back- this is people being malicious and intolerant.

i can't believe people do this s@%$- adults. how hard is the concept of right and wrong to get when it comes to an individual's well being? breaking the law is a much more abstract harm (in many cases) that not all people can understand or choose to abide by because their own self interests run contrary to the law. that is why there are lawyers- lots of them. but i know of no laws that condone inflicting harm on someone unless acting in self defense (all goverment sactioned activities exlcuded- and that just goes to show you how demented government and law can be when enough people want something.) so, mayve these people feel they are being threatened- they're wrong!

sadly, in this case i think the individuals want mountain bikers to leave the trials for them and them alone. in reality eveyone wants to preserve their own experience first, but most of us choose civil means to do so, and most people are willing to put themselves in someone else's shoes, if only for a minute. too bad the powers that be are making decsions about trail acces, enforcement, budget, and future plans based on a stereotype of cyclists that is based in fear and hate and without empathy. everyone needs their battles- too bad we have this one to fight.

[mtb_g33k]

This is just a ridiculous post...I'm at a loss for words. First of all, yeah they guy was riding on an "illegal" trail. So that's not right. But just like someone else said it's not ok for someone to shoot you on the freeway for cutting them off. Obviously we are all biased towards the use of mt. bikes on trails, however, everytime this topic comes up on these boards I feel the same way. Why the hell are we aurguing over who can ride, run, walk, hike, etc. on trails on public land. I could have sworn that it was public land and we should be able to do whatever we want within reason. What I mean by that is nobody should be trying to kill or mame someone for being on the trail, littering, or defacing the property. Honestly I don't ride on trails that are "illegal" however I have a hard time swallowing that I can't use that trail. I could care less if someone on a horse was on our "bike only" trails. We are all out there to have a good time and to enjoy the scenery, thrill, challenge or whatever else you feel from being out there. I think everyone feels the same way. I will be the first to say that if I'm bombing down a trail and there are some horses it sucks to stop and let them ride through. However it's just the right thing to do. I don't know if I've voiced my opionion well and will probably be flamed for whatever I wasn't thorough enough in explaning, but the bottom line is that we should all be able to enjoy our countryside. Regardless of if we are walking, running, hiking, riding horse, or spinnning wheels. I just don't understand why everyone can't act like a reasonable, courteous adult and put our predjeduces behind us long enough to realize we are all the same group of people...people who enjoy being outside and not sitting in front of our big screen tv waiting for the next show to come on.

[Dirt_Diggler]

Originally Posted by mtb_g33k

I just don't understand why everyone can't act like a reasonable, courteous adult and put our predjeduces behind us long enough to realize we are all the same group of people...people who enjoy being outside and not sitting in front of our big screen tv waiting for the next show to come on.

AMEN! now if you'll excuse me i'm going to go back to surfing the net and writing messages to people i've never met.... haven't owned a TV for 10 years, but sometimes i hate this virtual world that i get sucked into. is that a new topic?

[mtb_g33k]

Originally Posted by Dirt_Diggler

AMEN! now if you'll excuse me i'm going to go back to surfing the net and writing messages to people i've never met.... haven't owned a TV for 10 years, but sometimes i hate this virtual world that i get sucked into. is that a new topic?

I watch my fair share of tv, but I think we are both on the same page here. Thanks for having a level head!

[Carl Hungus]

Originally Posted by NoBalance

Its just an analogy. He isnt saying they're 100% similar.

Did Rosa Parks almost get killed by riding in the front of the bus, or maimed? Doubt it, or anything close.

So no, they are not similar but the concept is the same. Don't get your panties in a knot just because someone seems to be comparing his mountain biking to your precious Rosa Parks.

Yes, it was an anology and it was a piss poor one at that. That was my point. Being told to get out of your seat and move because of the color of your skin is very different than choosing to ride a trail that you are not "supposed" to be riding and then facing some semi-dangerous obstacles when you do. Both instances are unfortunate, but they are not by any means comparable.

[imridingmybike]

Originally Posted by Carl Hungus

Yes, it was an anology and it was a piss poor one at that. That was my point. Being told to get out of your seat and move because of the color of your skin is very different than choosing to ride a trail that you are not "supposed" to be riding and then facing some semi-dangerous obstacles when you do. Both instances are unfortunate, but they are not by any means comparable.

[Melt]

Originally Posted by johnnyb

Terri Alvilar (.

think you may have spelled her name wrong but i found this

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b...h%2F2002-11%3F

[mhykhelle]

Originally Posted by pimpbot

http://www.azdailysun.com/articles/2...27_news_14.txt

I don't think this is unique to California or even Marin. I don't even think this is that widely held a way of thinking. I think it only takes one or two nut cases in any particular county to make this a the kind of problem everybody hears about.

say never. Keep your eyes open And take pix.

[MarkMass]

You're right that this is absolutely ridiculous. I don't ride on illegal trails either. I always announce myself, slow-down to a crawl, and give the right of way to hikers and horses. The problem is that being kind, courteous, and following the rules doesn't matter to the crazies.

There's a HUGE problem when some crazies put traps on illegal trails, but it also happens on LEGAL trails as well (i.e, Fells in Boston). The crazies are out to hurt/kill people regardless if the person is poaching or not. If you're on a bike, then you're a legit target for them. Only someone that is insane or hasn't ridden a bike would put an object/covered hole on a trail meant to endo/launch a rider in the air to (hopefully) land on their head and paralyze/kill them.

Could you imagine the outcry if people started finding traps meant for hikers and horses and it was attributed to militant mountain bikers claiming a piece of open use property as their own?

Back in Massachusetts, mountain bikers (NEMBA et al) lead the purchase of an area called Vietnam (or Headwaters of the Charles River). I'm really proud that I contributed to that and I'm still a contributing member of NEMBA. The Vietnam area is open to all and mountain bikers don't threaten/assault or put traps out for families that hike there even though we mountain bikers bought it with our money.

Originally Posted by mtb_g33k

This is just a ridiculous post...I'm at a loss for words. First of all, yeah they guy was riding on an "illegal" trail. So that's not right. But just like someone else said it's not ok for someone to shoot you on the freeway for cutting them off. Obviously we are all biased towards the use of mt. bikes on trails, however, everytime this topic comes up on these boards I feel the same way. Why the hell are we aurguing over who can ride, run, walk, hike, etc. on trails on public land. I could have sworn that it was public land and we should be able to do whatever we want within reason. What I mean by that is nobody should be trying to kill or mame someone for being on the trail, littering, or defacing the property. Honestly I don't ride on trails that are "illegal" however I have a hard time swallowing that I can't use that trail. I could care less if someone on a horse was on our "bike only" trails. We are all out there to have a good time and to enjoy the scenery, thrill, challenge or whatever else you feel from being out there. I think everyone feels the same way. I will be the first to say that if I'm bombing down a trail and there are some horses it sucks to stop and let them ride through. However it's just the right thing to do. I don't know if I've voiced my opionion well and will probably be flamed for whatever I wasn't thorough enough in explaning, but the bottom line is that we should all be able to enjoy our countryside. Regardless of if we are walking, running, hiking, riding horse, or spinnning wheels. I just don't understand why everyone can't act like a reasonable, courteous adult and put our predjeduces behind us long enough to realize we are all the same group of people...people who enjoy being outside and not sitting in front of our big screen tv waiting for the next show to come on.

[derby]

Mexican growers?

They are all over Marin watershed now.

It's getting close to planting time. It could be the boobie traps near the creek are a diversion for other digging nearby to lay underground water hose.

[Random Drivel]

Originally Posted by 67degrees

Unfortunately, most of these folks are the product of higher education and consider themselves to be ultra left-leaning. It's kind of a spin on eco-terrorism. As P.J. O'Rourke once said, "Socialism is just stupidity sent to college".

that quote just made my day!

[Berkeley Mike]

The other day I heard someone say that poaching is a symptom of mismanaged demand for trail usage.

If we started with trails first, and then looked at what we would allow on them, horses would probably never make it on the list.

One of the reasons land managers forbid usage of any kind is because weird stuff, like the rebar incident which started this thread, happens. People who go there are outside the law and pretty much anything goes.

Use your energy to support Trail Advocacy groups.

[johnnyb]

Yeah, for accuracy its, Terri Alvillar. Her husband was a Fairfax cop.

Here's some more fodder.

http://www.tomstienstra.com/mb062899.html

http://www.mtbr.com/trails/Californi...BoyScouts.html

[johnnyb]

Originally Posted by derby

Mexican growers?

They are all over Marin watershed now.

It's getting close to planting time. It could be the boobie traps near the creek are a diversion for other digging nearby to lay underground water hose.

Conspiracy theory #1, I think the traps are bike specific and its really too shady there to grow anything. Last year they were up on Bolinas Ridge and Near Mt. Vision. I still believe it is one of our local bike haters.

[baycat]

Heard stuff about a camera being on the trail in question, who collects the footage....

camo camera

[johnnyb]

Originally Posted by baycat

Heard stuff about a camera being on the trail in question, who collects the footage....

camo camera

This camera is on Split Rock? I hope not. I have seen camo cameras in use elsewhere outside of Marin on private property, but this could be a violation of rights if its on open space like that.

[baycat]

Fairly Certain.

[snowforner15]

get some photo evidence before some angry biker or somehow sorrowed sabatoger tears them down