Pretty Mamasita...Evemtually a first ride report.

[JMKM]

Well, the Mamasita proto's are back from Vegas. While the show bike is being photographed for Salsacycles.com and all the other marketing use, I've taken the 22 and built it up for ride testing. Tomorrow I'll be skipping work and after an AM appointment heading to the trail for some back to back testing, so I guess I'll be working, the line is to blurred.

We are testing some geometry changes with the Mamasita based mainly on fork choices, most notably the Reba. On the first prototypes we have steepened the head angles, the 22 has a 73 degree head angle. This is to bring the trail back into very near the same figure as our 26" Moto Rapido and test the handling changes compared to our current Dos Niner and El Mariachi. When the head angle was steepened the wheelbase was kept the same as the El Mariachi and Dos Niner. This results in a longer effective top tube in equivalent sizes. However, it keeps the wheelbase equal, which means that the overall wheelbase shouldn't be a factor in the handling of the bike as compared to our other 29" models.

I spoke to a few folks at Interbike about this to get some feedback. Especially after the glaring compliments our other 29ers got at Dirt Demo. At this time I can only say that the frame geometry specifics have yet to be determined. We may decide the steeper head angle is terrible, or we may dig, only some testing will answer that.

This will be an interesting test indeed, something that I have been looking forward to since signing off on drawings. I have heard lots of arguments for slacker head tube angles and more rake to get the trail factor closer in tact with 26" bikes. I haven't heard of many discussions in this direction.

Attached are some hack photos of the built 22 proto - build is straight forward; our new Salsa Race rims weighing in at 450 grams laced to Hope hubs, XT Parts, Demo "Prologo" saddle (removeable, durable foam pads on a molded sustrate), Thomson Parts, our new 17 degree bar cut down to 660 from 710 (I've got to squeeze through some trees), Reba set to 80, etc...

Ride Report to follow later this weekend, I've got to get some sleep now.

[Law]

What I would like to know for know is how the rear feels. I love my ti frame and it isn't going anywhere, but I am thinking about a second 29er with a suspension fork (my 29er has a rigid fork). I love steel. No so much into aluminum, regardless of the variety (scandium or whatever). But the carbon stays have me interested. I would be interested to know how it feels compared to steel, ti, and also to your scandium stuff.

If it had a ride somewhat close to as forgiving as an 853 or OX Platinum steel frame I would be interested. If not, well it will be a sweet looking frame (looking at gives me a funny feeling...) that I probably wouldn't be interested in purchasing.

Geometry-wise, I am trust that you guys will figure something out that will work well.

[G-Live]

I like the idea of a little steeper head angle than normal using an 80mm fork. Allows use of the REBA in 100mm as well without getting too slack.

On my XCal, I am using a 100mm REBA (came with an 85mm Marz) and have not noticed any significant change in handling which to me is a bonus.
Greg

[GlowBoy]

Originally Posted by JMKM

I have heard lots of arguments for slacker head tube angles and more rake to get the trail factor closer in tact with 26" bikes. I haven't heard of many discussions in this direction.

This has been a big topic of discussion on this board over the years. I think you would find many people here who would love to see more rake to allow quicker handling (and less toe overlap) without having to steepen the geometry. This is especially important for us shorter riders who can't go to a 73* head angle (or in many cases, even 72*) but even some tall guys like Cloxxi are pretty enthusiastic about the idea.

[rensho]

Nice bike. Send one my way, and I'll test from the west coast.

For being a tall guy, i'm surprised you run 160mm rotors on the front.

Oh, mamasita...

[shiggy]

Originally Posted by rensho

Nice bike. Send one my way, and I'll test from the west coast.

For being a tall guy, i'm surprised you run 160mm rotors on the front.

Oh, mamasita...

Not a lot of long descents in Minnesota.

I would not kick a Mamasita out of bed. It is on my list.

[GlowBoy]

Originally Posted by shiggy

Not a lot of long descents in Minnesota.

This would be the longest.

[JMKM]

Alright, I'm back from the first ride this afternoon and have some initial comments to make...I also want to take the time to address the steeper v. slacker head angle comments and present my own point of view here.

First, Attached are some photos
1) A slightly better side shot.
2) Gratuitous sexy stays shot
3) Nice rear end, check out those 17 degree bars
4) Top view of bars
5) Did you really think it wouldn't have clearance for the Reba?

Now the ride report.
Disclaimer: I am trying to be objective as possible here, what good would our frames be if we weren't as critical of them as the general public?
This is the first ride I have had on the Mamasita. I have been riding a KM for about 3 years now, a Dos for two, and the El Mariachi for about 9 months. For the first ride I went to Lebanon Hills, which is considered the premier trail in the Twin Cities for Mountain Biking. I am really familiar with this course, the turns, flow, surface, etc... The dry dusty leaves came a bit into play today, more on that later.

First Lap: The bike immediately feels different than the handling of the Dos or El Mariachi. It feels snappier, but not twitchy, the front end feels light, but not floppy like a slack head tube DH bike. I'm over steering, "stop over steering," "oh that's a little better". "Damn this thing handles crisp" I stand to climb "this is much more firm than the Dos" (more on that later). I quickly realize that my brake levers are rotated to far under the bars, but I'm having too much fun to stop and fix them "I'll fix them next lap". I'm sliding out in the turns partially because of the over steering, but I also realize that I put 40 PSI in my Nano (r) and Exi (f). The fork feels like it is diving in the corners, last night I put 150PSI in the negative chamber making it extremely active to small terrain variances, "I'll fix that on the second lap". I finally got sick of the tires and stopped to let some pressure out. I probably got them down to about 35-37 PSI, not aggressive enough. Basically, the first lap was fun, but a wash considering that I needed to dial in my setup.

Before the second lap I rotated my levers to the proper position, dropped the PSI to 30-33, and reset the pressure in the negative chamber on my fork to 125PSI(how I like it for my weight and riding style).

Last night I built the bike and crawled into bed at 1:00AM, not to late. I mounted a set of 17 degree flat bars for control and used a wheel set built with Hope hubs (they kick ass!) laced to a proto of the New! Salsa Delgado Race Rim (450g). I have been riding a 17 degree bar since last winter and this particular one since Labor Day. I left it at 710mm for the inaugural ride in South Dakota. If you get a chance to go to the Dakota 5-0 in Spearfish, SD next summer you should. It is an amazing 50 mile course that meanders through the beautiful Black Hills. The race itself is promoted by what I can only refer to as "good people" they are the kind of folks that if you lived in the same town you would undoubtedly be good friends.

Alright comeback, for today’s ride I cut the bar down to 660, to fit it through the trees on some of our tighter metro trails. I loved the 710, but it just won't work for our tight singletrack. It would work in an area with desert type trails, but not here. The 17 degree bend just feels better for a natural grip position, it is simple ergonomics. The wheels feel good and light, the tire footprint isn't as stable as the DD29mm width rim, but this is a race light wheel set and it has to be narrower given limitations of the material. The tire doesn't feel squirrelly by any means either, the casing feels firm and round even with 30 PSI under my 200lb. body.

The second lap was night and day difference, the fork felt better, I wasn't reaching under the bars for my lever, and the tires were getting the traction I yearned for. I had learned how the front end handled faster than my Dos or El Mariachi and now the bike just felt crisp and fast. I was taking my usual lines through the turns and feeling comfortable on the bike. The Mamasita definitely handles faster and more crisp than my other rides. The wheelbase is actually longer than my Dos as I ride a 20" and this is a 22", but the bike still handles faster. It certainly isn't twitchy, the only way I have to describe it is
"light". I feel like less energy is going into cornering than I have before. That is how the handling felt.
The bike climbs firm and nimble. The front end feels light over logs and rocks. When standing the front end feels solid and the back end doesn't feel like it is "wagging" around. I believe that some of the reason the front end feels stiffer than the Dos is as a result of the heavier DT we have used on these proto's until I ride a Dos with the same DT I can't comment on a comparison. I also feel that the Dos doesn't feel as firm in the rear end. There is definitely some pedal induced reaction from the soft tail design. I'm not ripping on the Dos, I love the Dos and have spent 1000's of miles on mine. It is extremely comfortable for long rides and rips around the singletrack loop. The Mamasita is just different.
On the comfort level the Mamasita feels every bit as compliant as my El Mariachi. I haven't got a way to measure, but I would venture to say that the flattened carbon seat stays and Scandium chain stays do what we designed them for. They offer passive rear suspension to add comfort to the bike and keep the body from becoming fatigued quickly. They do this well! I have ridden plenty of other hard tails that have fatigued my back to the point of discomfort and cramping. I felt none of this today.

I am trying to answer this question for Salsa and myself; Do we want to use new geometry for the Mamasita when we know and love the handling of the Dos and El Mariachi? I also know that there will be some forks with more rake than currently offered, Manitou is working on theirs and I would venture to bet that others will follow. Right now though the only good forks suited for this frame are the Reba and some would say the WB. I haven't spent any time on the WB, but given its cost and current distribution most riders are going to choose the Reba. The Reba is easily the most widely available and ridden fork, this is a fact. I would like to ride some forks with more rake and frames with slacker angles, but until those forks are available we have to design for what is. Given Salsa's core, we are not in a position to drastically influence OEM manufacturer's to make longer rake forks. This is the simple reason that we are testing the steeper head angles.

If you've stuck through this, I need more time on the bike to fully grasp the changes we have made. I also need to do some back to back laps comparing the old to the new. There will be more following...

[JMKM]

Like has been said, there are no long decents here that require enough braking to necesitate a larger rotor as a result of brake fade or more power.

[mtnbykr©™]

you'd be welcome to come up to duluth to test-ride that bike. we'll show you the hidden stash...

kl

[Guitar Ted]

JMKM: First, a hearty thank you to you and all the Salsa crew. You guys rock, and I mean that most sincerely. I love Salsa products and the folks behind them, so color me a fan, good or bad!

Next, I have been doing some testing of my own here in Iowa utilizing the On One Inbred 29"er as a platform. I have used the original On One fork with 47mm rake and now have a 38mm rake Switchblade Race X lite carbon fork on it. Here's what I have found.

I agree with the "lighter steering" input needed with the 47mm rake. It's as if you barely weight the inside of the bar, and off you go in that direction. The flip side is that when you get a little bit out of shape in a corner, there's not much you can do to save it. You're gonna go down! A quick handling bike doesn't suffer fools gladly!

The Bonty fork gave the bike an entirely different handling characteristic. I found myself going off trail to the outside at first because I wasn't "steering" the bike enough. I found out that it took more muscle, more "gross movement" to initiate and complete fast single track corners. I also found out that the fastest way around the trail, ( a trail I am quite familiar with and one I do all my testing on) was to "set up" for the corner in advance of it, weighting the rear wheel a bit more than with the Inbred fork. Flip side? When I got out of shape, the bike was really easy to counter steer and bring back on line. Almost a "flat tracker" kind of feel.

I am going to slap a Carbon Super Light fork on it next with the 47mm rake to compare "apples to apples" as far as carbon forkage goes.

My take so far is that the 38mm rake fork with the larger trail figure would really be appealing for fast sweeping courses, or for sketchy trail surfaces where steering correction is an important trait. For super precise, low input, surgical handling, the 47mm offset with the smaller trail figure is best, but beware to those who fall asleep at the wheel!

My opinion, yours may vary!

Look forward to more on the Mamasita!

[gitzit]

JMKM, how's the Mamasita coming along?

[JMKM]

I have had the Mamasita out several times now since that first ride. I still need to do a back to back test, but I really like the steeper head angle and faster handling. Some of the other Salsa guys have been on it as well including Jason. He seems to be enjoying it as well, but I will have to leave that comment up to him.

I haven't found any flaws yet and I'm really trying to be objective as I can. The bike is definitely a race hardtail in the handling category. As far as durability it is the same tube set as our Dos with differences being a new stiffer downtube and the carbon stays.

Lately I've been taking the bike out to the local tight singletrack right in the city of Minneapolis. The loop is a short, tight, fun 3, or so miles. There is never a break and you are constantly turning. I have ridden both steel 26" hardtail, my KM, El Mariachi, Dos, and now the Mamasita out there. I think the Mamasita definitely handles faster than the Dos and El Mariachi on the tight stuff.

I'm hoping to do a side by side comparo on Friday afternoon if the weather lets up and holds out.

[Salsa Cycles]

Originally Posted by JMKM

I have had the Mamasita out several times now since that first ride. I still need to do a back to back test, but I really like the steeper head angle and faster handling. Some of the other Salsa guys have been on it as well including Jason. He seems to be enjoying it as well, but I will have to leave that comment up to him.

I haven't found any flaws yet and I'm really trying to be objective as I can. The bike is definitely a race hardtail in the handling category. As far as durability it is the same tube set as our Dos with differences being a new stiffer downtube and the carbon stays.

Lately I've been taking the bike out to the local tight singletrack right in the city of Minneapolis. The loop is a short, tight, fun 3, or so miles. There is never a break and you are constantly turning. I have ridden both steel 26" hardtail, my KM, El Mariachi, Dos, and now the Mamasita out there. I think the Mamasita definitely handles faster than the Dos and El Mariachi on the tight stuff.

I'm hoping to do a side by side comparo on Friday afternoon if the weather lets up and holds out.

A few comments and observations. I'm going to hold back on some of my experiences because I want our testers to form their own opinions and give real feedback.

First, this bike and project has made me realize the importance of standardizing the bikes and equipment when comparing geometry. I did a back to back test on the El Mariachi and the Mamasita this past weekend. It was really fun, but what I found was that I ended up comparing things other than the ride of the two bikes. One had the race rims on it and the other had Delgado 29er Discs. Both bikes had 11 degree bars, but one was carbon and one was aluminum. In back to back tests, I found I always liked the bike with the lighter wheels. Point is, make sure you are comparing apples to apples. Nothing new here, just a reminder.

Second, it's hard to be objective. I won't elaborate here, but it's easy to see and feel what you want to feel when you are this close to a project.

Third, the biggest difference is the first ride. I noticed the geometry difference immediately when I rode the Mamasita for the first time. I rode it one other time before the back to back. By the time I did the back to back, I just felt like my body and mind adapted to the bike I was riding. I noticed less and less each consecutive ride. Sort of like the type of shifters I have on my bikes. One has SRAM trigger. One has Shimano SL. One has Shimano Dual Control. I have no troubles switching between all three of these. The mind is powerful.

In short, this project has confirmed that it is really impossible to design a bike to do everything. In my own back to back testing, I liked certain things about each bike and each geometry. The good news is that with so many 29ers coming out, riders should be able to pick a bike with geometry that meets their wishes. The tough part for a brand like Salsa is how do you educate folks so they buy the right products for their intended application?

I will say this about the new geometry and what not. The Mamasita is very fast and precise. Some will like it. Some will love it. Some will hate it.

More to come.

Jason

[Guitar Ted]

Originally Posted by Salsa Cycles

....................................

In short, this project has confirmed that it is really impossible to design a bike to do everything. In my own back to back testing, I liked certain things about each bike and each geometry. The good news is that with so many 29ers coming out, riders should be able to pick a bike with geometry that meets their wishes. The tough part for a brand like Salsa is how do you educate folks so they buy the right products for their intended application?

I will say this about the new geometry and what not. The Mamasita is very fast and precise. Some will like it. Some will love it. Some will hate it.

More to come.

Jason

Jason, you've hit upon something here that I've come to realize lately too. To get a bike that "does it all" means you get a bike that's great at nothing. Also, there are "west coast" bikes, "mid-west single track bikes", "east coast woodsy bikes", etc...... The really cool thing about 29"ers is that with the different fork offsets on offer and the different head angles out there one can "tune the ride" if they are paying attention to what's going on. Soon, even suspension forks will be different in offsets. (Some already are).

I think that the "norba geometry" XC bike kind of put us all to sleep in the tuning department. For too long, we just accepted that a hardtail had a 71 X 73 degree geometry for XC and a slacker angle for down hill, etc. Now 29"ers are here and the whole question has been re-opened for examination again. I, for one, think it's great.

I think it's an opportunity to show folks again that you can and should have a couple of different bikes for different jobs. I think some folks "get it", but alot do not yet. 29"er afficiandos owe it to themselves to delve into this front end geometry and leave the "26"er" thinking behind. It's a whole different animal with the big wheels and there's much to learn!

[Cloxxki]

Thanks for the pics and ride reports!

Suppose you're liking the 73º head tube angle on the XL. Will you give each smaller size a slacker angle, or less toe clearance to the point of overlap on the M or even L already?
Or the old 29" trick with steeper seat tube angle on the smaller sizes, so it really fits and rides like a size larger with a shorter seat tube?
Huge top tubes?

Suspension forks are on their way with more offset, allowing one handling characteristic for all frame sizes, yet without making it slow-go-stable. Even if super steep heat tube angles are "preferred", it would be "unfair" to shorter riders that they aren't invited to that party. It's doable, but very complicated to give smaller frames a steep heat tube angle and not produce catastrophic toe overlap.

I love that 17º bar, just from it's looks. I'll mate one to a 140mm stem to replace my 120/11º rigid race setup. If it ends up longer that's only a good thing, and I need to take the 140mm from another bike anyway.

The handlebar seems to be pointed up quite a bit? I'd probably be running them like the Mary, in a plane with the rear wheel. Gets the most back sweep from it also.

[G-Live]

So...what head angle will be on the 20" frame?

[chequamagon]

Just looked up the word "mamasita" on the street language dictionary....

"f*ckable ho"

[JMKM]

Cloxxki,

If we use the steeper head angles the 16" S frames will have the same geometry as the Dos and El Mariachi. 18" would get a 72.5 head angle, 20 and 22 would get a 73 head angle. The wheel base would then be the same as our Dos and El Mariachi and the top tubes would be slightly longer for the 18",20", and 22" frames.

I've been waiting for you to chime in here honestly. I figured you would have a strong opinion for the steeper head angle considering your interest in fork manufacturers making a fork with a 46mm rake. For small frames I think it does make sense. It may even allow for a 14" frame, but I haven't looked at it in digi space. For larger frames and taller riders I'm not entirely seeing it, sure the front end of the bike would handle faster, but the overall wheelbase would be longer as well. I'd really enjoy hearing some feedback on this.

[Guitar Ted]

Originally Posted by JMKM

Cloxxki,

If we use the steeper head angles the 16" S frames will have the same geometry as the Dos and El Mariachi. 18" would get a 72.5 head angle, 20 and 22 would get a 73 head angle. The wheel base would then be the same as our Dos and El Mariachi and the top tubes would be slightly longer for the 18",20", and 22" frames.

I've been waiting for you to chime in here honestly. I figured you would have a strong opinion for the steeper head angle considering your interest in fork manufacturers making a fork with a 46mm rake. For small frames I think it does make sense. It may even allow for a 14" frame, but I haven't looked at it in digi space. For larger frames and taller riders I'm not entirely seeing it, sure the front end of the bike would handle faster, but the overall wheelbase would be longer as well. I'd really enjoy hearing some feedback on this.

Okay, let's say that you put the head angle for the larger sizes at the aforementioned 73 degrees and that the fork manufacturers do in fact come out with the 46mm rake. Then let us assume that these two things get together.

All righty then! What we have is a really quick handling rig that should make "racer boy" and single track fiends smile broadly. However; you've got the rest of the trail riding populace out their that will sneer due to the fact that they appreciate all of their skin and like it to stay on their bodies!

Seriously, that kind of set up will definitely appeal to a certain sub-set of offroaders, but it's not a mainstream set up. I think leaving the head angle at 72 degrees will still be plenty quick with a 46mm offset fork. I have an On One Inbred set up with the On One Superlight Carbon fork ( 72 degree X 47mm rake) and my feeling is that it is a quick handling bike, but still imminently rideable at slow speeds and in techy terrain. Slow climbing exhibits a touch of wheel wander. I would think that a 73 degree angle would make it less fun in the slower- techy stuff and cause wheel flop at slower climbing speeds. Sure, it'd handle swell at anything over 12-13 mph. But I don't always find myself going that fast on my trails.

Another facet of bikes that handle super quick that I don't appreciate is the tendency to get into a "yard sale" everytime you lose it just a bit handling-wise. You know, it gets away from you just a bit in a corner and wham! There's no time to gather it back up again. A 72 degree head angle mated to that 46mm offset is going to be quick, just not too quick, at least for a majority of trail riders out there. Sure, there are those that would love the super quick front end, I just think it's not in the majority of peoples best interest.

.........but, then again, who am I to say?

[Cloxxki]

Good one Ted!

I'd like to add that with a slacker HTA (typical 71/73 geometry), wheelbase won't have to be long. The top tube lengths you've been using for years (people have not changed overnight, the wheels have). Just the extra offset and perhaps longer fork add some front centre, but often IMO that's a good thing.
For instance, consider a more "old skool" top tube length, with matching longish stem. It will only be good to mate that to a longish front centre, for steep descends.

To me it's pointless to make the bigger sizes ultra-quick, while leaving the S size a relative downhill tank. then just don't make the S, or get handling a bit more on one line between sizes.

I can attest that the 72º/47mm of the Inbred works mighty well. I'd increase neither figure too much without lowering the other though. For smaller bikes to fit well and handle as we would like, going lower in the HTA and longer on the offset just seems the right thing to do.

A 14" bike will be very doable indeed. I once roughly calculated that 8mm more offset is worth a good 4" in rider height. You get the same handling quickness (trail figure at least) with a slacker HTA, and get to shorten the toptube by a fine stretch. And one 2" framesize increament is worth, what, some 17mm of ETT? A little bit of offset goes a long way...

[JeffS]

Nice, but I wish builders would go back to using a longer headtube for their larger bikes.

Seems like an effort to keep the weight down, but looking at your seat stem and riser handlebars, the frame looks unnecessarily short.

[Salsa Cycles]

Originally Posted by JeffS

Nice, but I wish builders would go back to using a longer headtube for their larger bikes.

Seems like an effort to keep the weight down, but looking at your seat stem and riser handlebars, the frame looks unnecessarily short.

Just listening, but I need to make one quick correction before others comment. Just one quick clarification. The bars on JMKM's bike are actually FLAT bars with 17 degree bend. No risers there. The one side shot just looks like a riser because JMKM often rotates his bars up a bit.

Jason

[Salsa Cycles]

Originally Posted by Cloxxki

Good one Ted!
To me it's pointless to make the bigger sizes ultra-quick, while leaving the S size a relative downhill tank. then just don't make the S, or get handling a bit more on one line between sizes.

I can attest that the 72º/47mm of the Inbred works mighty well. I'd increase neither figure too much without lowering the other though. For smaller bikes to fit well and handle as we would like, going lower in the HTA and longer on the offset just seems the right thing to do.
...

This is good stuff. Cloxxki, just a few comments.

If you look at our current geometry and geometry from a few other 29er mfgs, you'll see that almost every one of them adjusts the head angle on the smallest size. It's because of constraints. This constraint could change if and when the other forks actually come out. Personally, I'm waiting to see what Fox does because if there is going to be a change, they could lead it. I don't think Manitou or White Bros will get RS to change the Reba.

Additionaly, a 71 degree on the smallest size doesn't make them a downhill tank. Ask anyone who's ridden a small Dos, a small El Mariachi or a small Niner (all with 71 degree head tube angle). None of these bikes feel like a tank.

Keep it coming. This is fun.

Jason

[JMKM]

The 17 degree bars are great. Cloxxki mentioned that it looked like I had them rotated way up and I do. When I'm doing long sustained rides I rotate them up because I will be riding more relaxed. I point the bend roughly at my shoulders when seated on the saddle and this is comfortable. If I'm going to be doing aggresive fast rides, such as a race type condition I will rotate the bars more flat to account for my position on the bike with bent elbows and more bend at the waste due to more effort. This is all just theory, so remember that. The point of the matter is that you can achieve many different positions by rotating the bar, similar to a riser, but without the rise.

Where are these 46cm offset forks? Sure On One brings a couple of rigid forks to market, but I have seen no direct communication from any suspension manufacturers that a fork with this offset will actually be produced, just a lot of propaganda and hear say on these boards. The facts are that the Reba is the most widely used fork available and it makes sense to design frames around it. When and If another manufacturer does bring fork with more offset to market we can re-evaluate our geometry and change it based on that information. Until then it makes sense to design for what is available. I touched on this in a previous post above, but here's a little bit more detailed view. Treat this as an open invitation where is (insert manufacturer name here) with their press release with detailed specs.?

[Cloxxki]

The Manitou Minute project (molds must exist) seems to be funed by Fisher, or at least initiated because of Fisher's interest. Word is, those forks get more offset.

A couple small-series FRM forks got 45mm. Marzocchi always used 43mm for 29". Early Fishers were quite nimble thanks to that.

[JMKM]

Cloxxki,

You've just added validity to what I was saying. "Word Is" does not pass for proof that Manitou will use 46mm as a specification. "Small-Series" will probably not hit mainstream. If Marzocchi's rode so well, than why did
fisher approach RockShox for the Reba? And if the 43mm rake is so blatantly better than Reba's 39mm of rake than why didn't Fisher insist on it?

The Manitou's that I saw at Interbike are alleged to be welded lowers, meaning the mold does not exist. Only someone from Manitou could verify this.

I'm not trying to start an argument Cloxxki, I think this is a good discussion about geometry, but the facts aren't leading to a 46mm rake fork in the near future. Until then we will design for the absolute's that we know.

[JMKM]

This afternoon I left the old office to go and do some product testing. I'm not sure what our official policy is on this and I'm really not interested in it. What I did get to do was go ride a couple of bikes, spin my legs, and compare the Dos Niner and Mamasita one after the other finally. I usually don't drive to work, my wife and I own a single vehicle that's paid off and she uses it to commute to and from the school where she teaches. She's had the last couple days off for a fall break and I decided to take advantage of the opportunity.

I'm sure your sick of my banter about the experience and really want to hear about the ride eh? I've got my Dos and the Mamasita set up as near similar as I thought necessary today. Reba fork on both, Salsa Delgado Race Disc Rims on both, similar components for weight, etc...I hopped on the Dos first, it was the last bike on the rack and the first off. I wasn't going out to scrutinize the Dos, I was just going out for a ride. I rode the trail and the bike like I always do and had a great time, I Love the Dos Niner! Seriously, the 1" of suspension is awesome. It takes the edge off and lets me manipulate the bike in a way hard tails don't. For example, when I go to bunny hop a log pile I bring my weight back on the bike like anyone else. But, when I bring my weight back on the Dos I am able to noticeably load the shock before take off... I dig it! I do this all the time for bunny hopping, little rollers, etc... The Dos is stable and comfortable, a great bike for laps around the local trail, xc racing, and long endurance rides and races.

Now the Mamasita, the ride was totally different. I honestly didn't expect it to be so drastically different than the Dos Niner. After a lap on the Dos I was fully warmed up and there's no way to take that out of the equation. I just tried to keep it in the forefront of my mind and discern for myself what was the bike and what was my body. The two most obvious things I noticed were how quickly the bike handled and how stiff the frame felt compared to the Dos. The front end felt lighter and more responsive, this is a bike that like to be pushed into the corners where I feel the Dos handles better when I sit back and relax in them. Out of the saddle the frame feels much stiffer, especially in climbs. I still think that this is due to two things; first, the DownTube on the Mamasita is slightly thicker walled than the Dos. Second, because the Dos is a suspension bike, there is some pedal induced movement of the shock. Although it is minimal the shock is there and definitely active.

I can't make up my mind and I won't be able to make up yours I really like both frames for their qualities. The Mamasita is fast handling, stiff, and light. The Dos handles slightly slower, but has suspension and is still light.

I like the Mamasita geometry and would really like to have a Dos with the same numbers to compare a little closer, remove as many variables as possible to determine where the differences are coming from.

[G-Live]

Originally Posted by JMKM

This afternoon I left the old office to go and do some product testing. I'm not sure what our official policy is on this and I'm really not interested in it. What I did get to do was go ride a couple of bikes, spin my legs, and compare the Dos Niner and Mamasita one after the other finally. I usually don't drive to work, my wife and I own a single vehicle that's paid off and she uses it to commute to and from the school where she teaches. She's had the last couple days off for a fall break and I decided to take advantage of the opportunity.

I'm sure your sick of my banter about the experience and really want to hear about the ride eh? I've got my Dos and the Mamasita set up as near similar as I thought necessary today. Reba fork on both, Salsa Delgado Race Disc Rims on both, similar components for weight, etc...I hopped on the Dos first, it was the last bike on the rack and the first off. I wasn't going out to scrutinize the Dos, I was just going out for a ride. I rode the trail and the bike like I always do and had a great time, I Love the Dos Niner! Seriously, the 1" of suspension is awesome. It takes the edge off and lets me manipulate the bike in a way hard tails don't. For example, when I go to bunny hop a log pile I bring my weight back on the bike like anyone else. But, when I bring my weight back on the Dos I am able to noticeably load the shock before take off... I dig it! I do this all the time for bunny hopping, little rollers, etc... The Dos is stable and comfortable, a great bike for laps around the local trail, xc racing, and long endurance rides and races.

Now the Mamasita, the ride was totally different. I honestly didn't expect it to be so drastically different than the Dos Niner. After a lap on the Dos I was fully warmed up and there's no way to take that out of the equation. I just tried to keep it in the forefront of my mind and discern for myself what was the bike and what was my body. The two most obvious things I noticed were how quickly the bike handled and how stiff the frame felt compared to the Dos. The front end felt lighter and more responsive, this is a bike that like to be pushed into the corners where I feel the Dos handles better when I sit back and relax in them. Out of the saddle the frame feels much stiffer, especially in climbs. I still think that this is due to two things; first, the DownTube on the Mamasita is slightly thicker walled than the Dos. Second, because the Dos is a suspension bike, there is some pedal induced movement of the shock. Although it is minimal the shock is there and definitely active.

I can't make up my mind and I won't be able to make up yours I really like both frames for their qualities. The Mamasita is fast handling, stiff, and light. The Dos handles slightly slower, but has suspension and is still light.

I like the Mamasita geometry and would really like to have a Dos with the same numbers to compare a little closer, remove as many variables as possible to determine where the differences are coming from.

Hey JMKM,
After another ride or two on the Mamasita, care to add toyour previous comment:

"On the comfort level the Mamasita feels every bit as compliant as my El Mariachi. I haven't got a way to measure, but I would venture to say that the flattened carbon seat stays and Scandium chain stays do what we designed them for. They offer passive rear suspension to add comfort to the bike and keep the body from becoming fatigued quickly. They do this well! I have ridden plenty of other hard tails that have fatigued my back to the point of discomfort and cramping. I felt none of this today."

The soft tail of the Dos is appealing to me, but the looks and handling of the Mamasita may sway me if there really is a comfort factor that I do not get on my GF XCal.

hanks
Greg

[JMKM]

I've just got back from an afternoon ride with the rest of the Salsa crew and thought I would share the comfort experience. I have ridden a few rigid aluminum hardtails; Kona Kula, Specialized M2 Stumpy, and a Trek 8000. The only AL/Carbon Hardtail I have ridden has been the Moto Rapido. The Moto is drastically different than all of those fully rigid AL hard tails. The Mamasita is a lot like the Moto. I haven't ridden the two back to back so I can't compare them directly, but it is a lot like how I remember the compliance of the Moto. It is also a lot like the ride of my El Mariachi steel frame. It is compliant, it does dampen the small vibrations.
As for the flattened carbon stays, we really don't have data other than ride feel to compare them and say "our stays are 10% more compliant than brand x".

[SKullman]

Originally Posted by Salsa Cycles

Additionaly, a 71 degree on the smallest size doesn't make them a downhill tank. Ask anyone who's ridden a small Dos, a small El Mariachi or a small Niner (all with 71 degree head tube angle). None of these bikes feel like a tank.

Hey jason, I have one of the small Dos's and I can agree it doesn't turn slow.

But, I would feel ripped off if the all the "adult" mamasita's got 73 HA and the small was still 71. Isn't there any way to squeezy the 72 onto the small?

Shane

[jms]

The Mamasita sounds wonderful. I can't wait to for it to become available. However, if I were trying to sell bikes, I'd ask myself where sales for this platfom were likely to come from. It would seem that the Mamasita will draw interest away from existing bikes that Salsa sells - like the Dos Niner.
I would think giving the Mamasita the Dos' geometry with an 80mm travel fork, and changing the Dos to 100mm travel with it's current geometry, plus a slightly higher BB would help differentiate them to those not so intimately aquainted with all things "Big Wheeled".It would seem to also distinguish one as more of an XC bike [Mamasita] and the other as an Endurance rig [Dos]. Possibly, more clearly differentiating and improving there function within those niches.
Reading and viewing your posts of the Mamasita with an Exiwolf in front, I can't say that I've ever felt my Dos wasn't quick enough in the handling department, especially with light wheels and race tires [read Karma's]. Making the Mamsita quicker handling still will help how, when they're being used with racing wheels and tires?
Again, cool frame - I'll probably order one when the Mamasita becomes available, just keep in mind everyone doesn't have the same appreciation for sublties that the fanatics [like me and others on this board] do.

[the_eleven]

Salsa people!

When will the Mamasita be offered for sale?

[Salsa Cycles]

Originally Posted by the_eleven

Salsa people!

When will the Mamasita be offered for sale?

We've made our final changes and it is now going into production. More on that later. I'd expect March/April delivery and I will update as we get our production schedule finalized.

Jason

[the_eleven]

Jason,

What will the msrp be on the Mamasita?

Is this going to be marketed as a "racers only" frame or will it work for a "do it all, ride all day, think I will straightline this rock-garden" frame?

[Salsa Cycles]

Originally Posted by the_eleven

Jason,

What will the msrp be on the Mamasita?

Is this going to be marketed as a "racers only" frame or will it work for a "do it all, ride all day, think I will straightline this rock-garden" frame?

MSRP is $825 or so.

Our criteria when building this bike was to design a go fast bike that was also reliable and "affordable". While Salsa does sponsor some racers and many folks use our products as "Racer only" frames, the Mamasita is not a Race only frame. As noted somewhere in on one of the mtbr forums, we certainly could have made this frame lighter by using full scandium or less carbon. However, being the lightest frame was not one of our criteria. It is a very light, comfortable and fast geared specific hard tail.

Ride all day? I certainly think so. The flat stays and carbon give the rear end some nice compliance. I know I like it. For me personally, if I was going to do a 3+ hour ride, I'd ride the Dos because for me, the Dos is the ultimate in comfort.

Regarding "straightline this rock garden"? Remember, it is a hard tail, but it certainly should be a great hard tail to do this type of thing. It's no Cove Stiffee SL for real super agressive trail riding. It is an XC/trail riding machine.

Let me know if you have more questions.

Jason

[G-Live]

Final geometry numbers?

Would you recommend this or the Dos for someone who is coming off of a 4x4" 26" bike (Sugar) and finds an Alu HT29er a bit too harsh?

Riding WI singletrack and racing WORS sport class at mid to back of pack.

Thanks
Greg

[chequamagon]

Originally Posted by G-Live

Riding WI singletrack and racing WORS sport class at mid to back of pack.

Hehe, looks like you and I ride together every other Sunday! mid to back..... I like the way you stated that so softly..... I usually just tell people I am slow.

[G-Live]

That was you ? I am not really slow. Just not fast for very long.

It is a fun series for me. Wish I could do more than the 4 or 5 races each year but life happens.

Where is your regular riding?
Me? Used to live 2 mi from Crystal Ridge and rode there 2x /week, now up in the North Subs so end up riding the Roadie with occasional trips to CRidge, Sheboygan and the SKettles.

Cheers,
Greg

[Scottytheoneandonly]

JMKM, I can't take it anymore! You tempted me at interbike with your fancy 29er. Now every time I wander into this bb I have to hear about how tough your job is....riding your 29er prototype.

Please get the darn thing done and start shippin' em! Until then, you'll get no Founders Ale from me. Grrrrr

[rensho]

I heard it has been done for almost 1 month. Now just to MFG and ship it!

[JMKM]

We'll be seeing Mamasita's sometime in late Feb, early March. A bit later than our other frames. This was a late season development project that we absolutely have to give due time.

Without Founder's Ale I will have lost my will to live, y'all better tell Scotty that he needs to ship me some IPA so that I may have the energy to work.

[the_eleven]

Originally Posted by Salsa Cycles

Let me know if you have more questions.

Jason

Looking back over this thread, I am unclear about the final gemetry specs.

Sizing? HTA?, STA? What fork offset is the bike designed around?

Thanks!