Willits W.O.W. Concept Bike

[WillitsBrand.com]

Leave two guys like Wes and Jared in the same room for long enough and things like this start coming out. Amazing.

Ti manipulation.


Check that pivot-point.


Wow!

[donkey]

I'm not sure I understand why the pivot point is needed?

Are they expecting enough flex out of the swooped/curved stays that a pivot is necessary?

B

[WillitsBrand.com]

Originally Posted by donkey

I'm not sure I understand why the pivot point is needed?

Are they expecting enough flex out of the swooped/curved stays that a pivot is necessary?

B

I do believe so. Again, it's a total concept bike to experiment with the feel of different types of bends. It has a fork to match too. You should take a trip to Austin to ride it!

-s

[AOF]

I see the Paragon sliding dropouts, albiet with a der. hanger, but is the intent to be SS also?
Will the chainstay flex mess with the chain length?

-Dan

[Cloxxki]

It seems the Paragon dropouts have some extra leverage on the stays to generate flex?

[brant]

Originally Posted by Cloxxki

It seems the Paragon dropouts have some extra leverage on the stays to generate flex?

Looks great. Would love to see some data on how much extra flex is actually achieved with this system.

[Lutarious]

Soft tails work fine as SS. The chain stays felx but don't change length in any significant way. Worked fine on my old merlin

[Guitar Ted]

Originally Posted by Cloxxki

It seems the Paragon dropouts have some extra leverage on the stays to generate flex?

In conjunction with that upper pivot, it will really put the chainstays to use, the way that a soft tail should be. It also will help the seat stays become another spring that will resist upward movement. See how the distance between the pivot and the drop out will have to become shorter, albeit just a tiny bit, flexing the seat stays as well. The pivot helps this happen without concentrating alot of stresses on a welded joint, like a "normal" hardtail would have.

That's my armchair engineer take on it!

[terminaut]

Originally Posted by WillitsBrand.com

Leave two guys like Wes and Jared in the same room for long enough and things like this start coming out. Amazing.

Cool experimenting! The seat stays look very Dave Kirk (http://www.kirkframeworks.com/Janssen_400.jpg) or Hetchins-ish and styling. That pivot is pretty clunky though.

With Jared's Serotta background why not just use him as an in to license the DKS design since that works so well?

[WillitsBrand.com]

Here's Jared's explanation: "The concept bike is an exploration in seat stay and chain stay manipulation with vertical compliance as the end goal. We want to see how strategic bend placement and ovalization of the stays aids the frames ride qualities through a passive suspension system. We essentially turned the rear into two pair of leaf springs. The bends placed in the horizontal plane are designed to allow the axle to move up and backwards. The seat stay pivot is meant to allow maximum movement for the corresponding stay so that the suspension action is unhindered by a weld zone."

[wolfy]

Does the weld make the metal more stiff(less flexy)?

-M

[rockhound]

Looks like a Villin.

[WillitsBrand.com]

I've heard it rides quite nice.

[Tbone]

I love the looks of this frame. Is there any word how the "concept" progressing???

[WillitsBrand.com]

That's a great question. The experiment was in the rear-end of the bike and in the fork.

Long-story short:

1) The rearend tube manipulation was deemed a success but the hinge unnecessary, and it was dubbed the B2. It is an available option on the Ti versions of the Trail King, Monster X, and Mountie. On a geared build, the manipulation is only in the seatstays. $400 SS, $250 geared.

2) The fork is incredible. It is called the W.O.W. fork and is now offered for $250 in a 465mm span with disk tabs or canti mounts.

-steven

Said experiment:


Production examples:
SS


Geared

Originally Posted by Tbone

I love the looks of this frame. Is there any word how the "concept" progressing???

[Ligero]

Originally Posted by WillitsBrand.com

1) The rearend tube manipulation was deemed a success but the hinge unnecessary

Was the hinge not necessary because the rear end was not actually flexing? The chain stays are curved up so if they did flex the chain stays would lengthen but you have the chain fighting that. Are there any numbers on how much they rear flexed vertically?

[WillitsBrand.com]

The rearend flexes just as well without the hinge. No numbers. Rides great.

[Ligero]

Originally Posted by WillitsBrand.com

The rearend flexes just as well without the hinge. No numbers. Rides great.

Most ti frames ride great but do you know if the rear end is actually flexing vertically. This reminds me a the old Mountain Cycle Moho soft tail. They put in a machined seatstay yoke that had what appeared to be a leaf spring in it and said that it flexed up to a half inch vertically. Well it did flex vertically but it took almost a thousand pounds of force to make it flex the half inch.

Also while working at a large Ti frame builder who also puts curved stays on their frames we did testing and the stays do not flex like leaf springs like you would think. In order to turn them in to leaf springs like you sya the tubes had to be severely flattened and curved. The better ride that the curved stays produced was from the tubes being longer and being able to absorb more vibration before being transmitted to the rider.

[j porter]

Jared from Willits here. The tubes are ovlaized and curved, which is precisely why it works. The B-2 rear only moves 5-6mm but reacts to bumps thousand of times a minute without the rider noticing because it absorbs these small impacts. Because the seat stays are normally straight compression members their ability to absorb shock is limited. When bent in an s curve they take on the the characteristics of a spring. The B-2 takes the edge off bumps, but it is an entirely passive form of suspension that relies totally on tube shaping to tune the ride. It does not replace suspension, but it provides comfort for those who choose a more compliant rear end on their ti hard tail.

[Ligero]

[quote=j porter]The B-2 rear only moves 5-6mm but reacts to bumps thousand of times a minute without the rider noticing because it absorbs these small impacts./QUOTE]

5mm that reacts thousands of times a minute sounds exactly like what I said, that the stays are absorbing vibrations and not impacts. Don't get me wrong the frame looks really cool but to call 5mm of movement passive suspension, tires flex more then that.

[Keholio]

Nice looking frame and chainstay set-up. What kind of bushings are being used in the pivot to keep it quiet and smooth?
I know that this was posted a while ago. Are your pics backwards or do you have a specific Left drive-side design that is incorporated into the "concept".

[WillitsBrand.com]

No bushings on the production bike.

Left drive-side is kind of the new thing, like in BMX.

[buggymancan]

Looks great! a few questions:

Why are the curved chainstays only available on the SS Frame and not the geared bike?
It looks like you offer (2) SS chainstay versions; (1) with EBB and (1) one with Paragon sliding dropouts? What are the pros and cons of each?

What's up with the fork? Is it steel or Ti? Any vertical compliance built into it (vs. say Pace carbon stright blade fork)?

[WillitsBrand.com]

The curved seatstays interfere with the chainline of a geared bike.

Man, EBB vs. Sliders. There should be a LOT of discussions here about this. One thing I can say is a TON of love goes into the EBB setup at Willits. Here's a few.

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=218352
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=266297
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=251621
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=191223

As for the WOW fork, they have been extremely popular. They're steel with custom rake and color. Very vertically compliant, more so than our straight forks. Wes is actually building one right now with a strut on it. It's a work of art. Unbelievable.

-steven

Originally Posted by buggymancan

Looks great! a few questions:

Why are the curved chainstays only available on the SS Frame and not the geared bike?
It looks like you offer (2) SS chainstay versions; (1) with EBB and (1) one with Paragon sliding dropouts? What are the pros and cons of each?

What's up with the fork? Is it steel or Ti? Any vertical compliance built into it (vs. say Pace carbon stright blade fork)?

[slocaus]

Originally Posted by WillitsBrand.com

Wes is actually building one right now with a strut on it. It's a work of art. Unbelievable.

-steven

You should know better than to post these "teasers" without pictures!

[WillitsBrand.com]

Sorry about that. Just the upper bends in the strut are left. You have to know the HT length of the bike it's going on to make the strut the right length and bend it appropriately. There will be pictures, I promise.

-s

Originally Posted by slocaus

You should know better than to post these "teasers" without pictures!

[WillitsBrand.com]

As promised:

Originally Posted by WillitsBrand.com

Sorry about that. Just the upper bends in the strut are left. You have to know the HT length of the bike it's going on to make the strut the right length and bend it appropriately. There will be pictures, I promise.

-s

[Wish I Were Riding]

Very nice lines, but the wide angle pictures aren't giving a good enough depiction. Got any straighter shots with less lens distortion?

Will there be pricing info on the web site soon?

[WillitsBrand.com]

More pictures soon. It should be on a bike and painted by then. We'll ride it and tweak accordingly before we price. Struts aren't exactly new to Wes but how they respond on a WOW fork should be an entirely new thing. Every other fork Wes has put a strut on has had little or no vertical compliance, while that's the main attribute of the WOW.

When we feel like it's dialed, there will then be pricing.

thanks,
steven

[Wish I Were Riding]

Originally Posted by WillitsBrand.com

More pictures soon. It should be on a bike and painted by then. We'll ride it and tweak accordingly before we price. Struts aren't exactly new to Wes but how they respond on a WOW fork should be an entirely new thing. Every other fork Wes has put a strut on has had little or no vertical compliance, while that's the main attribute of the WOW.

Good point, maybe struts are not the answer if I'm looking for a "compliant" fork... They sure are purty.

[WillitsBrand.com]

Actually, I expect this to be the most compliant "rigid" fork I've ever ridden. We're setting it up on my bike on Monday I think. I'll let you know.

-steven

Originally Posted by Wish I Were Riding

Good point, maybe struts are not the answer if I'm looking for a "compliant" fork... They sure are purty.

[WillitsBrand.com]

Alright, going to go ride this thing now. Pedaling circles in front of the house already feels drastically different than my Type II. Wow indeed.

[Wish I Were Riding]

Originally Posted by WillitsBrand.com

Alright, going to go ride this thing now. Pedaling circles in front of the house already feels drastically different than my Type II. Wow indeed.

Looking forward to a full and unbiased ride report. I think the lines are nice, but with the struts so close to mimicing the lines of the fork you can't really see it. I hope it does its job to make up for it.

[WillitsBrand.com]

Yeah, it's interesting, I kind of grilled Wes about the strut shape today. I had noticed that he's really changed the lines of the strut over the years. He ultimately decided that a staight strut (ie: one that doesn't mimic the WOW fork lines) somewhat inhibits the amount of "travel" the fork can get. But man, you can see the fork flex when you ride. Sort of reminded me of my first Mag 21, which totally mesmerized me.

Anyway, lovely Austin, Texas got 3 inches of rain yesterday so I probably won't see the big trails for a few days. Willits is hosting a bike builder's happy hour tomorrow where my bike will be shown, but damnit, after that, it will get thrashed!

I rode 10 miles of road and hike-and-bike on it this evening and could instantly tell the difference. Maybe not a DH fork, but it was honestly like going from my Old Skool Vans to my Saucony running shoes jumping on the bike. One of our hike and bike trails has a section of jagged limestone rocks bound together by wire. I rode over it and damn if I couldn't feel a major difference. Also, I may be wrong, but I could swear there might even be a smidge of sag when I sit on the bike.

I'll let you know!

-steven

[Wish I Were Riding]

Originally Posted by WillitsBrand.com

Willits is hosting a bike builder's happy hour tomorrow where my bike will be shown, but damnit, after that, it will get thrashed!

Also, I may be wrong, but I could swear there might even be a smidge of sag when I sit on the bike.

Thanks Steven. I'd also like to hear what the pros AND cons are of this design over just a stand WOW fork. PLEASE!

[WillitsBrand.com]

Alright, just had an extremely hairy 1.5 hour ride on the slickest limestone switchbacky trails I've experienced in a while.

Anyway, man, yeah, I can tell an instant difference between this fork and my Type II. I really wish Wes was doing the modern B2 rearend when my Monster X was built as it would be the perfect companion to this fork. Like the B2 rearend, the strut WOW fork is certainly not a Reba but is an excellent passive suspension system. I really noticed it on the high frequency chatter stuff. It's active enough to see it moving as your ride which is interesting.

My fork is 2 diameter sizes smaller than a standard WOW fork and therefore moves a LOT more. The curves of the strut let it move without ripping the strut off the fork. I really think those curves let it move as far as it safely can. Also, keep in mind that I'm 215 and riding some burly trails.

As far as cons go, jeez, it's heavier than a Type II (which is really light), probably pretty darn close to a regular WOW and will certainly be our most expensive fork. Also, the strut is a predetermined length that can't be easily changed (particularly can't easily be lengthened). That's honestly about it. I'm not taking this off my bike unless they make me.

Originally Posted by Wish I Were Riding

Thanks Steven. I'd also like to hear what the pros AND cons are of this design over just a stand WOW fork. PLEASE!

[sslos]

Jeez. That thing is beautiful!
As soon as I get to any kind of position of financial stability, I'm ordering a Monster-X- hopefully by that time, Wes and Jared will have the strut fork ready to go.

Los

[WillitsBrand.com]

20mm thru-axle: Unicrown $350, WOW $400
Strut WOW (steel fork, titanium strut, custom rake and color): $450

[dRjOn]

lengths?

[WillitsBrand.com]

Type II: 420mm only
WOW: 420mm with strut, 465mm
Unicrown: 420mm, 465mm

Originally Posted by dRjOn

lengths?

[Wampuscat]

Originally Posted by rockhound

Looks like a Villin.

Yep....just a bit!

[WillitsBrand.com]

Oh, believe me, Wes doesn't take credit for the idea (like most of the better ideas). He's as much a historian as an idea-man. His biggest influences are pre-turn-of-the-century designs.

Great minds think alike!

Cool bike.

-steven

Originally Posted by Wampuscat

Yep....just a bit!

[sever]

20mm huh? I don't think anybody's made a 20mm fork that wasn't totally overbuilt yet. Dmr trailblade is like 4 lbs.

Do you have any pics? I really wonder what you think of the way it rides; it would seem that any torsional stiffness you gain isn't gonna be apparent, with how flexy those big wheels are. But you know, I'd be happy to be wrong! I love me some thru axles!

[1 Speed]

This is such a beautiful bike. Would love to see how it performs over time.

[WillitsBrand.com]

Me too.

Originally Posted by 1 Speed

This is such a beautiful bike. Would love to see how it performs over time.

[buggymancan]

For clarification, is Willits offering the Cro mo UNI-crown WOW fork w/ Ti Strut as a production option? (1) What is the standard offset; (2) what does it weigh, (3) will it be availabe with standard QR dropouts, or is the 20mm axle necessary for lateral rigidity?

(2) is there a plan to produce the fork in all- titanium ?

Thanks,

[WillitsBrand.com]

1) I'll check on that, though I expect you can get whatever you want.

2) I believe my fork came in around 1050 grams uncut, though options would affect this weight.

3) QR dropouts would be standard. Haven't tried the 20mm axle yet.

2b) Wes has been riding an all-titanium version exclusively for years. Loves it.

-s

Originally Posted by buggymancan

For clarification, is Willits offering the Cro mo UNI-crown WOW fork w/ Ti Strut as a production option? (1) What is the standard offset; (2) what does it weigh, (3) will it be availabe with standard QR dropouts, or is the 20mm axle necessary for lateral rigidity?

(2) is there a plan to produce the fork in all- titanium ?

Thanks,

[buggymancan]

Steve,

What is the weight of the all Ti version (w/ strut), cost and availability (w/QR dropouts)? Also, the axle to crown height is 465? I do not see the fork listed yet for sale on the website.

Thanks

[sever]

I also noticed it looks like the strut fork won't work with rim brakes.

[WillitsBrand.com]

Here's a picture of Wes and his personal ride.

Originally Posted by sever

I also noticed it looks like the strut fork won't work with rim brakes.

[1 Speed]

A whole new line of questioning. What's up with seatpost thing? Looks really strange.

[WillitsBrand.com]

You know, that's a good question. I know Les had just gone on some 80 mile dirt road ride the day before this picture. I wonder if that's not a pad on his seatpost for shouldering the bike. Looks like it.

-s

Originally Posted by 1 Speed

A whole new line of questioning. What's up with seatpost thing? Looks really strange.

[Pottser]

It's not hiding the new secret Willits-post you are developing?

[slocaus]

You posted a side view of this bike, but I cannot find it now. Can you post that again, and maybe that will answer the question?

[WillitsBrand.com]

No, his post on there is from the '90s. Not too new.

Originally Posted by Pottser

It's not hiding the new secret Willits-post you are developing?

[WillitsBrand.com]

Are you speaking of that studio shot over the dark background? If so, that's really old. This looks like something Wes adds on for rides.

Hmmm....

Originally Posted by slocaus

You posted a side view of this bike, but I cannot find it now. Can you post that again, and maybe that will answer the question?

[slocaus]

Originally Posted by WillitsBrand.com

Are you speaking of that studio shot over the dark background? If so, that's really old. This looks like something Wes adds on for rides.

Hmmm....

Not sure. Post it againg and I will tell you.

[WillitsBrand.com]

Heh?

Originally Posted by slocaus

Not sure. Post it againg and I will tell you.

[slocaus]

Originally Posted by WillitsBrand.com

Heh?

Yes, yes, yes! Ooh, aah, umm. That is the one!

I remembered something about the seatpost in that photo, but I see now it was the red color.

(mumble) ....... still have to get me a Monster-X ...... (/mumble) with a WOW fork

[mp29k]

That is the most beautiful bike I have ever seen.