Panaracer 29 x 2.3 COMING IN AUGUST

[Panaracer Jeff]

Hi All,

Just wanted to let you know we're coming with a new 29" x 2.3 super light (680 gram) FULL KNOBBY available in August. I'll post more here (like pics) once I get them. I'm happy to answer any question so let me know.
Jeff at Panaracer

[shiggy]

Thanks for the confirmation, Jeff.

Is the tread design all new or is it based on an existing pattern (Cinder or Fire)?

[Panaracer Jeff]

Completely new Shiggy. It's called "Rampage" and it will have a very aggresive tread design. No semi-knob or semi slick, but nice beefy knobs at a great weight. ZSG is what makes it possible.

[shiggy]

Originally Posted by Panaracer Jeff

Completely new Shiggy. It's called "Rampage" and it will have a very aggresive tread design. No semi-knob or semi slick, but nice beefy knobs at a great weight. ZSG is what makes it possible.

Great! We need a 29er tire like this. The ZSG compounds are underrated by many riders. Does not have the "sizzle" of the sticky/dual compounds but out performs most on the trail (grip and durability).

Looking forward to getting a set.

[Panaracer Jeff]

Thanks Shiggy. Looking forward to hearing your feedback.

[Carl Mega]

That's a good weight if it has aggressive tread like you said. Should be interesting. When will some pics be leaked?

[Guitar Ted]

Is this going to be the tire for the wet roots, slippery kind of trails, like East coast, or a tire more suited for the dry? I understand it's a full knobby and a new tread design, so this may not be answerable. My impression is we are talking "all mountain" here, no?

[shiggy]

Originally Posted by Guitar Ted

Is this going to be the tire for the wet roots, slippery kind of trails, like East coast, or a tire more suited for the dry? I understand it's a full knobby and a new tread design, so this may not be answerable. My impression is we are talking "all mountain" here, no?

The Cinder and TrailRaker both use the ZSG rubber and grip wet roots and rock pretty well.

The Cinder is more of a dry tread pattern though.

The TR is my favorite mudder and can handle the dry just fine.

[shiggy]

Originally Posted by Panaracer Jeff

Completely new Shiggy. It's called "Rampage" and it will have a very aggresive tread design. No semi-knob or semi slick, but nice beefy knobs at a great weight. ZSG is what makes it possible.

Anything like a deep tread version of the RazerXC?

[burner]

not being able to run panaracers is what bummed me out about going 29, so thanks! good choice on going 2.3.

looking forward to trying a set.

[Panaracer Jeff]

Thanks All. To answer your question, Guitar Ted, yes All Mountain is our aim. Since We're just going to mould, no one's ridden it yet, but that is our goal.

[Panaracer Jeff]

I hope it will be late June Carl. I'm pushing the facotry hard.

[DeeZee]

Originally Posted by Panaracer Jeff

I hope it will be late June Carl. I'm pushing the facotry hard.

I hope it is a "true" 2.3

[Panaracer Jeff]

You and me both, brother. We're trying but since there is no industry standard for width and so rim dependent, it'll be hard to make everyone happy...

[shiggy]

Originally Posted by DeeZee

I hope it is a "true" 2.3

Let's not start that again.

As far as I am concerned no knobby tire is a "true" anything. You can have wide treads and narrow casings, narrow treads and wide casings or the tread and casing can be the same width.

This tire is announced as a 2.3 and I expect it to be a large tire and ride like a large tire as the Cinder 2.25 and Fire FR 2.4 do.

[BruceBrown]

Originally Posted by Panaracer Jeff

You and me both, brother. We're trying but since there is no industry standard for width and so rim dependent, it'll be hard to make everyone happy...

Way to go, Jeff. I, too, miss my Panaracer days when I rode the 26" wheeled bikes. Fire XC Pro's were my favorite tires and they served me well.

Next big question for the upcoming 29"er platform...

Will these tires be black only, or will we have the famous color options which would be way cool?

BB

[miles e]

Originally Posted by shiggy

As far as I am concerned no knobby tire is a "true" anything.

So why use numeric designations at all then?

At any rate this sounds like a very promising tire; it's good to see Panaracer enter the game with both barrels blazing.

[SpinWheelz]

Holy crap... has anyone ever built up a bike just so they could ride a set of tires? 'Cause I'm about to do it, I think. These tires are never going to stuff into my Surly 1x1, I'm pretty sure about that!

How soon before we can sneak a peek of the tread design, Jeff?

[Panaracer Jeff]

Black only for the time being Bruce.

[Panaracer Jeff]

To Miles: So people can debate "size" ;-)

To SpinzWheels: It'll be Late May but I'll try and do what I can!

[shiggy]

Originally Posted by miles e

So why use numeric designations at all then?

We need it.

"The new B.F.Goodstone mtb tire is available in a waist-high diameter and the following widths: wide, fat, puffy, and marshmallow."

The "2.XX" method is traditional and it is expected by consumers. It has not been "official" for many decades.

The WTB "Global Measurement System" is much better (i.e. 49/52, casing width in mm / tread width in mm). WTB tried to mark their tires only with the GMS size but were forced to add the traditional width size later, even though they do not match (Exiwolf 29x2.3 55/50, 55mm=2.16" / 50mm=1.97").

The ISO size (AKA ETRTO) on the casing (55-622) is the tire section width and bead seat diameter in mm (this is the only "official" measuring method). There is no definition of or instructions for measuring the cross section. Is it the casing or the tread? It just does not work well for knobby tires.

[shiggy]

Originally Posted by Panaracer Jeff

To Miles: So people can debate "size" ;-)...

Men claim the size then try to convince others it really is/was that big!
.
.
.
.
Think fish and FR drops

[miles e]

Originally Posted by shiggy

We need it.

"The new B.F.Goodstone mtb tire is available in a waist-high diameter and the following widths: wide, fat, puffy, and marshmallow."

Funny, I was also going to point out the futility of tire makers picking arbitrary designations for tire sizes (small, medium, large, etc), but you were obviously thinking the same thing. The sad thing is that the current system is really little better.

I understand the distinction you're making between the various ways to measure a knobby, but as you pointed out we've all seen tires that just aren't anywhere close to their labled size. I really hope it's not too much to ask for the next 2.3"+ tire for 29" wheels to really be a 2.3 by some objective standard of measure.

The "everyone else is doing it, we just thought that was how it's done" line when it comes to exaggerating a tire's width is getting old. It can also backfire for a company when they develop a bad reputation for having undersized/low volume tires, even if their tires perform well for what they are (i.e. you have greatly differing expectations for a 1.9 vs. a 2.2).

[shiggy]

Originally Posted by miles e

...I understand the distinction you're making between the various ways to measure a knobby, but as you pointed out we've all seen tires that just aren't anywhere close to their labled size. I really hope it's not too much to ask for the next 2.3"+ tire for 29" wheels to really be a 2.3 by some objective standard of measure...

As I was trying to point out, there are really very few "2.3" tires that do measure 2.3" by any objective measure. Just take a look at the specs on my site.

If you really want an extreme example of "how do you measure it" look at the Michelin HiLite Hot 26x1.95 (47-559).

[~martini~]

Thanks Jeff! I remember seeign some of the Panaracer Honcho's at the Frostbike show giving a good look to Salsa's 29" offerings(namly, the new disc rim and Dos niner) and knowing something was up. I'm a tire whore like no other, so I'll be sure to be grabbing a set!

[Panaracer Jeff]

See, the debate has started! Way to bite Shiggy!

[Panaracer Jeff]

Did I meet you at Frostbike? Believe me, you'd have to be pretty bad 'ho to be a tire whore like no other...

[~martini~]

We've met before, though I don't think we talked this year. I acutally used to work at Q. early 2k's is when I was there. Back in the Hurl/GeneO days. I'm kinda hard to miss. 6'5", bald and odd facial hair(sporting a wicked fu manchu right now!)

[DirtDad]

When Jeff said the tire was "completely new Shiggy" above, I thought the tire was named Shiggy. Of course, in the next sentence he said the tire was called Rampage. Had me going. At first, I thought it would be cool to have someone make a tire and name it Shiggy, like the Maxxis Shiggy or the WTB Shiggy. It couldn't be Kenda, Shiggy does not start with a K. But then I thought about it a little and thought better of it. What if Shiggy did not like the tire? What kind of tire would it be? Would be be Shiggy's favorite? What about if he designed it the way Mark Weir designed the Weirwolf? And wouldn't that constitute a conflict of interest, since Shiggy's web site is all about impartiality? Oh well. Just another stream of conciousness, thought I would share this one.

[shiggy]

Originally Posted by DirtDad

When Jeff said the tire was "completely new Shiggy" above, I thought the tire was named Shiggy. Of course, in the next sentence he said the tire was called Rampage. Had me going. At first, I thought it would be cool to have someone make a tire and name it Shiggy, like the Maxxis Shiggy or the WTB Shiggy. It couldn't be Kenda, Shiggy does not start with a K. But then I thought about it a little and thought better of it. What if Shiggy did not like the tire? What kind of tire would it be? Would be be Shiggy's favorite? What about if he designed it the way Mark Weir designed the Weirwolf? And wouldn't that constitute a conflict of interest, since Shiggy's web site is all about impartiality? Oh well. Just another stream of conciousness, thought I would share this one.

LOL!

A tire named "shiggy" would be very aggressive, love it rough and sloppy and not care about smooth and fast.

Sizes to fit all rides.

[shiggy]

Originally Posted by ~martini~

...I'm a tire whore like no other...!

[DamoNNomaD]

All in.

[BruceBrown]

Originally Posted by Panaracer Jeff

Black only for the time being Bruce.

That's okay. Black is my favorite color anyway.

BB

[realbiker]

Will they also be available in Europe?

[SpinWheelz]

Originally Posted by shiggy

LOL!

A tire named "shiggy" would be very aggressive, love it rough and sloppy and not care about smooth and fast.

Sizes to fit all rides.

You used that line a lot with the chicks in college, didn't you.

[Panaracer Jeff]

Yep. Where are you located?

[andy f]

Where does the 100g weight savings over a 26" Cinder 2.25 come from? Lighter casing, smaller knobs?

I'm looking forward to trying this tire.

[AshKa]

Originally Posted by realbiker

Will they also be available in Europe?

I second that, some Euro (well, French for what I'm concerned) 29'' riders want to buy that tire! (I mean, without having to try and convince the guy at the shop that 29'' MTB tires and bikes do exist )

[OneGearGuy]

Woo-Hoo.
Great news, Jeff! Thanks for letting us know, first hand and in our "clubhouse."
You can sign me up for a pair!
Looking forward to learning and seeing more.

OGG

[Panaracer Jeff]

My pleasure. Glad to see you're happy with the news! I'll keep positng here with updates as I get them.

[Just J]

Good news, I've mainly used Panaracers for years, and just when I'm contemplating my first 29er too!

[Panaracer Jeff]

Very good question!

Tire making is always a trade off. While ZSG is a major improvement for strength to weight ratio over conventional compounds, a tire company must still balance tread/weight/sidewall/casing issues, which all mean the same in the end.

This is gospel, and not according to me:

A lightweight tire just won't last as long as a heavy one. Don't believe any company that tells you it will, including Panaracer. An educated rider knows this and knows what trade off their willing to make.

That said what can you expect from Rampage? Yes, at this moment the sidewall is not as heavy as Fire or Cinder, that is PART of the weight savings. The other part has to do with the formulation of ZSG we are using. It differs from tire to tire, which is what makes it exciting (for us, at least) to play around with.

As we finalize spec I'll revisit this question to. Thanks for asking Andy.

[Panaracer Jeff]

I hope we'll be in time for you to consider us!

[edemtbs]

Great news! Thanks.

Ed E

[~martini~]

Ok. maybe not like you Shiggy . But still. I love tires and get any I can.

[shiggy]

Jeff, Will there be a matching Xair inner tube?

[ne14cycling]

ahhh fond mid-90s memories of the Panaracer Smoke/Dart combo chiming in my mind. Used the Fire XCs as well and very excited to hear the 29er news. Will spread the word in Kiwiland.

[Rainman]

Excellent news. I hope that they are a tad bigger than the WTB Exi, just as tough, and a little lighter.. steel, of course.. no wussy kevlar beads.. with big knobs ...

I don't want much, do I ? lol..



R.

[Panaracer Jeff]

Not at this point Shiggy. Do you think we should do one? It would be pretty pricey.

[Panaracer Jeff]

Hi Rainman,

I suppose you'd like the tire to be round also, huh?! ;-)

[Panaracer Jeff]

Hi All,

As promised, here is the latest breaking news on the Rampage 29" from Panaracer. This comes directly from our head of R&D, Mr. Masa Odani:

Size ; 29X2.35 (58-622)
Origin ; Made in Taiwan
Keep inflated ; 240-380kPa(35-55P.S.I.)
Actual width (estimated) ; 58mm +_ 1mm
Actual diameter(estimated) ; 742mm +_ 2mm
Bead wire ; Aramid(Kevlar) only
Compound ; Durable compound Durometer ; 62a
Casing color ; Black TPI ; 60
Weight (estimated (target)) ; 680gr

I know some of you want wire bead, let us hear from you on that and any other questions or suggestions!

Still Rolling...

Panaracer Jeff

[Ricky J]

Jeff, as a super happy T Serv user I look forward to having another bicycle on Panaracers!

[Padre]

Originally Posted by Panaracer Jeff

Hi All,

As promised, here is the latest breaking news on the Rampage 29" from Panaracer. This comes directly from our head of R&D, Mr. Masa Odani:

Size ; 29X2.35 (58-622)
Origin ; Made in Taiwan
Keep inflated ; 240-380kPa(35-55P.S.I.)
Actual width (estimated) ; 58mm +_ 1mm
Actual diameter(estimated) ; 742mm +_ 2mm
Bead wire ; Aramid(Kevlar) only
Compound ; Durable compound Durometer ; 62a
Casing color ; Black TPI ; 60
Weight (estimated (target)) ; 680gr

I know some of you want wire bead, let us hear from you on that and any other questions or suggestions!

Still Rolling...

Panaracer Jeff

I like what I'm reading...

[MMcG]

I'm not concerned about weight all that much and my wire bead exiwolf is much easier to mount than my kevlar exis - so I wouldn't mind seeing a wire bead from Panaracer.

[Cloxxki]

Thanks for shring Jeff!
Those specs look extremely promising. I wonder what rim size is supposed to come to such specs? Even a 57mm casing width on a 29mm rim (the new standard, it seems) would be like 2 steps bigger than we've been fed with the past 7 years. The weight hardly any more than the lightest 2.1's that our tire piles are made up from.
I would mind that width and weight even with a superfast tread such as the Michelin XCR Dry's and Racing Ralphs of this world, but I get the impression you're more focussing on agressive grip?

I think it wouldn't hurt to make a series of steel beaded tires. Even if it's just for small aspiring builders that want to fit their new offering with an affordable tire that compliments it. If you can both steel and folding tires on the same equipment, by all means do offer options! Even better would be 3 options : the above folding lightweight, a similar wire version, and one with thicker casing to satisfy the all mountain crowd. One tread and mold to serve various types of riding, why not? My water tells me you'll sell them all. Offering versions would just make you appeal to more riders, and please them all a bit better.

Look forward to the first design images :-)

J

[shiggy]

Originally Posted by Panaracer Jeff

Not at this point Shiggy. Do you think we should do one? It would be pretty pricey.

Probably not a market for a 29" Xair. I have a pair of 26" but have not had a change to ride them yet.

Will there be a regular butyl tube?

[Panaracer Jeff]

Should there be?

[Panaracer Jeff]

That's one in a row!! Thanks Padre.

[Panaracer Jeff]

Now that's great feedback Cloxxki. It's getting copied and sent straight to Masa in Japan. Thanks for taking the time.

[Panaracer Jeff]

Got it. Thanks for taking the time to let us know your feeling. I'll pass this to the head office in Osaka.

[shiggy]

Originally Posted by Panaracer Jeff

Hi All,

As promised, here is the latest breaking news on the Rampage 29" from Panaracer. This comes directly from our head of R&D, Mr. Masa Odani:

Size ; 29X2.35 (58-622)
Origin ; Made in Taiwan
Keep inflated ; 240-380kPa(35-55P.S.I.)
Actual width (estimated) ; 58mm +_ 1mm
Actual diameter(estimated) ; 742mm +_ 2mm
Bead wire ; Aramid(Kevlar) only
Compound ; Durable compound Durometer ; 62a
Casing color ; Black TPI ; 60
Weight (estimated (target)) ; 680gr

I know some of you want wire bead, let us hear from you on that and any other questions or suggestions!

Still Rolling...

Panaracer Jeff

By these numbers and my charts the Panaracer will be taller than the Exiwolf (~8mm) and wider (~2mm). Hoping for a casing cross section closer to the Fire FR 2.4 than the Cinder 2.25 (though the Cinder rides BIG. Comfortable, grippy and tough, I have even run it under 20psi).

[WarPigs]

will Singapore, being nearer to taiwan and japan, be among the first to get it? if the distributors here order it at all...........

[Panaracer Jeff]

It would all depend soley on our distributor in your country. Calling them to ask won't hurt!

[GlowBoy]

This is great news! I take it the Rampage is a new tread pattern -- any info about that and/or the type of terrain it's intended for? My interest is definitely in the folding version, but If it's a fairly aggressive tire I think Cloxxki may be right about a strong market for the same thing in a heavier FR casing as well.

Given the stats you've posted about actual size (58mm width, 60mm height) I think you'll have a hit on your hands regardless of tread pattern!

[Panaracer Jeff]

Thanks GloBoy. It is a new tread and it's intended to work in just about anything out there. We're big believers in all purpose, all terrain tires. More as I get, and thanks again.

[Rainman]

Do I want them in round shape as well? Hmmm...ok that would be nice..

I prefer the steel beads as opposed to the kevlar because my experience in the past with some kevlar beaded 29'er tires has not been too good.

Strong sidewalls... even though heavier, resist rock cuts and damage and stand up to the pounding that happens when you run them at low [20psi] pressures.

The stats look very good on the tire. I think that you will sell a million of them.


If they turn out better than the WTB Exi's, you have most certainly got a winner !


R.

[Panaracer Jeff]

We'll work on getting them round for you, too.

Thanks for the input. It's good to get the feedback and know it gets back to our guys in Japan.

[Cloxxki]

I think it was on this forum that I read WTB's current best selling tire is the 29" Exiwolf.
I get the impression that's thanks to it's thougher-than-XC casing, and despite it's disappointing size. If I'm right, go figure...
For my XC ass, the 680g version would be too cool. I'd put it on a four-cross 29"er probably. And if a version comes in tacky compound that's the one that will make it to my front wheel.

[Rainman]

Originally Posted by Cloxxki

I think it was on this forum that I read WTB's current best selling tire is the 29" Exiwolf.
I get the impression that's thanks to it's thougher-than-XC casing, and despite it's disappointing size. If I'm right, go figure...
For my XC ass, the 680g version would be too cool. I'd put it on a four-cross 29"er probably. And if a version comes in tacky compound that's the one that will make it to my front wheel.

I use the Exi to "judge" all other 29'er tires... because, they are tough as hell. I ride in lots of rough sandstone rocks and over lots of roots...and the Exi's tough sidewalls never get cut...even at low pressures. I sometimes hit hard right through to the rims but the tires still just keep going. No sidewall damage.

They are heavy, but they do the job.


R.

[Panaracer Jeff]

More great feedback. Thanks Rainman. Keep it coming people!

[Cloxxki]

Assuming the planned tread being fairly agressive, an equally ramped knob racer boy tread would make a superb tire. One doesn't know what I mean before a Fast Fred 2.35 or Racing Ralph 2.4 is use. Those babies are as close to the 29" experience exist in the 26" size. High grip and stability, hold a line well. Faster rolling than all of the current 29" offerings, much wider casing, yet low weight, 500-600g. Such a tire in 29" will at least rock MY world, and in Europe such 26" tires sell really well, many have them as their sole dry-weather tires. Just not for rocks and gravel obviously.

Volume + speed, a magical combination. and the great thing is, you get great grip for free because of the volume, and the suptle casing you need for the speed.

[Panaracer Jeff]

Check out or RAZER and see if that's what you'd like to see in a 29. They offer a sweet, fast ride and for the 26" honches and honchettes out there, they rule.

[shiggy]

Originally Posted by Panaracer Jeff

Check out or RAZER and see if that's what you'd like to see in a 29. They offer a sweet, fast ride and for the 26" honches and honchettes out there, they rule.

I think the Razer would be a good 29er XC race tire.

(not on the US site btw)

I have not had a chance to ride the pair (26") I have. If they ride as well as the SpeedBlaster Lite (and they should be better) I will be very happy.

[shiggy]

Jeff, while we are on a want/dream path:

I want the Dart SC 2.2 tread re-released. That was always THE front tire for me and worked much better for me than the 2.1 HC version. One of the very few tires I could leave on year-round and know it would work.

The Dart SC tread on a Fire FR 2.4 casing would be killer - and look like a deadly weapon! A 29er version, too, of course (on the new casing?)

I managed to find a NOS Dart 2.2 on ebay. Looks and feels like it was just shipped from the factory. I had forgotten just how huge the tread was. I am very happy!

[Guitar Ted]

I think I have followed this thread faithfully enough to know that this has not been brought up yet. ( I can not believe it!) So, Jeff, what is your posistion on the matter? This tire is going to get "Stans-ed" and people are going to be asking if it works or not, so I thought I'd break the silence here and ask the official source.

If nothing can be said, ( which I would fully understand and expect) then perhaps you guys could use a super-strong folding bead, if you are coming out with this as a folder. It might save some poor guy's arse!

Not that I'd be interested in tubeless Rampage's or even care if anybody else does it, I'd just thought I'd ask a question that strangely hasn't been asked yet. ( But I know people are wondering about)

[Panaracer Jeff]

Hey Guitar Ted,

On a 29 UST-NO! I'd have to hear from about 100 of you threatening my knee caps or something in order to pitch this one to Japan.

As for Stan's, it's a great system and one we've tested with all our tires with great results. We endorse Stan's 100%. Stan says his feedback from Panaracer tire riders has not been great. We have no been able to duplicate these issue (i.e. leakage, bead issues).

Anyone else? Nice question GT.

[Cloxxki]

Wow, normally stan is the man that gts un-stanneble tires to work, not the other way waround!

I hope you can make those words true with 29" as well, fit is very much an issue, the 700c standard doesn't seem to work for larger knobbies, even tubed sometimes.

[DeeZee]

Originally Posted by Panaracer Jeff

Hey Guitar Ted,

On a 29 UST-NO! I'd have to hear from about 100 of you threatening my knee caps or something in order to pitch this one to Japan.

As for Stan's, it's a great system and one we've tested with all our tires with great results. We endorse Stan's 100%. Stan says his feedback from Panaracer tire riders has not been great. We have no been able to duplicate these issue (i.e. leakage, bead issues).

Anyone else? Nice question GT.

As for Stan's, it's a great system and one we've tested with all our tires with great results. We endorse Stan's 100%.

Now I'm excited

[banks]

I have been told by a few top tire people in the US & Europe, the only thing holding up a "true & realistic measured 2.35"-2.4"-2.5" 29" tire is the drum that makes the casing is at it's limits-which is why all the 29" tires have 2.2" casing and the oven is at it's max capacity with the widest part of the 29" tire @ 2.25".

Unless new machinery & ovens are made, the tire will be just like the 2.3" Exiwolf, undersized.

Has Panaracer coughed up the money, around or above $125k to make a 100% realistic-measured-at-rideable-pressures-with-calipers 29" x 2.3" tire?


Scoty

[DirtDad]

Originally Posted by banks

... the only thing holding up a "true & realistic measured 2.35"-2.4"-2.5" 29" tire is the drum that makes the casing...

I have heard this before, and I have no reason to doubt it. But smaller volume (sales volume, that is) tires have gotten their own casings. Endomorphs, Gazzolodis (sp?), and Big Apples come to mind. It seems that those tires must have unique casings. Maybe Endos were made using a tractor tire casing or something, LOL.

Either the casing thing is just an excuse, or QBP (aka Surly), Nokian, and Schwalbe were willing to invest big bucks to develop the tires I mention above. Or they managed to find casings that size already somehow.

[shiggy]

Originally Posted by banks

I have been told by a few top tire people in the US & Europe, the only thing holding up a "true & realistic measured 2.35"-2.4"-2.5" 29" tire is the drum that makes the casing is at it's limits-which is why all the 29" tires have 2.2" casing and the oven is at it's max capacity with the widest part of the 29" tire @ 2.25".

Unless new machinery & ovens are made, the tire will be just like the 2.3" Exiwolf, undersized.

Has Panaracer coughed up the money, around or above $125k to make a 100% realistic-measured-at-rideable-pressures-with-calipers 29" x 2.3" tire?


Scoty

The Exi, Ingnitor and Fast Trak casings are all about the same size. The Schwalbe Big Apple 700x60 casing is substantially larger (~4mm wider and 3-4 taller), and larger overall diameter than the target diameter of the Panaracer.

Kenda has also stated that the cost of the machinery to make the "big" 29er tires is $38,000.

If Panaracer engineers say the tire will be a 58-622 at the very least, the tread will measure 58mm wide. Every one of their tires I have measured have met or exceeded the ISO width (tread).

I have no doubt they have the equipment to make it. May not have even needed new machines. There are plenty of truck tires WAY bigger than any bicycle tire we are asking for (not saying these will or can be made on truck tire equipment).

[jonassterling]

Give me knobs. None of this low profile racer boy BS, or tiny hardpack knobs that certain people here seem to start describing in all threads about new tires. I want some real traction on roots, wet rocks, soft dirt, etc. I don't really care how well it rolls.

If you make a tire larger then the Exiwolf with real knobbies you will sell so many your head will spin.

I've debated building up a 26" bike again because the tire selection for east coast riding flat out SUCKS. I had any number of 2.3 tires to pick from in 26", 29" tires do not really exist in this size.

People have plenty to race on right now, you can always jump into that market later. If you get a true 2.3 knobby to market soon you can make a killing, assuming you can make enough.

[shiggy]

Originally Posted by jonassterling

Give me knobs. None of this low profile racer boy BS, or tiny hardpack knobs that certain people here seem to start describing in all threads about new tires. I want some real traction on roots, wet rocks, soft dirt, etc. I don't really care how well it rolls.

If you make a tire larger then the Exiwolf with real knobbies you will sell so many your head will spin.

I've debated building up a 26" bike again because the tire selection for east coast riding flat out SUCKS. I had any number of 2.3 tires to pick from in 26", 29" tires do not really exist in this size.

People have plenty to race on right now, you can always jump into that market later. If you get a true 2.3 knobby to market soon you can make a killing, assuming you can make enough.

I agree with you, jonas. I want a big, fairly open, aggressive, deep treaded tire.

[WarPigs]

here here!!
1000000% behind jonas n shiggy.

try riding in a tropical rainforest. i want all the knobs i can get

the type of mud here makes my 2.1 panaracer firexcpro into a 2.1 slick tire.

[banks]

Originally Posted by shiggy

I want a big, fairly open, aggressive, deep treaded tire.

10-4 on that good buddy!

Scoty

[Feldybikes]

Please don't use the Exi as a model of how to make a tough tire. With apologies to Rainman, Exi's aren't nearly tough enough to withstand the pounding one can put out with a longer travel 29er. When I saw 2.3" tire, I thought "cool." When I saw 650 g, I was less happy. I would think the tire would have to be 900 g or more to be burly enough to withstand all the rocks and crap its size makes it capable of riding over.*

So, should you see it fit to make a tougher tire, please consider making it *really* tough, as in downhill/dual-ply whatever casing.

*was that coherent?

[Padre]

Originally Posted by Feldybikes

Please don't use the Exi as a model of how to make a tough tire. With apologies to Rainman, Exi's aren't nearly tough enough to withstand the pounding one can put out with a longer travel 29er. When I saw 2.3" tire, I thought "cool." When I saw 650 g, I was less happy. I would think the tire would have to be 900 g or more to be burly enough to withstand all the rocks and crap its size makes it capable of riding over.*

So, should you see it fit to make a tougher tire, please consider making it *really* tough, as in downhill/dual-ply whatever casing.

*was that coherent?

Not too coherent...specially since there isn't an exi below 800g. In fact most are over 850g.

[shiggy]

Originally Posted by Feldybikes

Please don't use the Exi as a model of how to make a tough tire. With apologies to Rainman, Exi's aren't nearly tough enough to withstand the pounding one can put out with a longer travel 29er. When I saw 2.3" tire, I thought "cool." When I saw 650 g, I was less happy. I would think the tire would have to be 900 g or more to be burly enough to withstand all the rocks and crap its size makes it capable of riding over.*

So, should you see it fit to make a tougher tire, please consider making it *really* tough, as in downhill/dual-ply whatever casing.

*was that coherent?

Wire bead Exiwolfs actually weigh ~850g, not 650g. It is still an XC casing. I think it is partly the way the tread wraps down the tire that "toughens" it.

Instead of a DH double casing I would rather have a casing with a reinforcement similar to the "SnakeSkin" sidewall Schwalbe uses or the ProTection from Conti. Both make a big durability improvement over the "plain" casing without added much weight or hurting the ride quality.

[Feldybikes]

Sorry, I'll restate things.

I'm aware Exis are around 850g, and they're (one of?) the most durable 29er tires currently available. However, I don't think they're tough enough. A 29x2.3" tire is huge enough to roll over a lot of rough terrain. Easily equivalent to a 26x2.5" tire. I say this from experience as I've ridden Walt's DH 29er (I designed it and did the machining) back to back with my, (admittedly old) 6" travel 26" DH bike (GT Lobo with Boxxer). The 29er can roll over everything--fast. But Walt would flat the thing all the time 'cause he could go so fast over really rocky terrain that he'd tear the tires up. He doesn't flat "normal" 29er tires (Mythos, etc.) over the same terrain 'cause he doesn't go as fast (partially 'cause he's not riding a 6" bike at the time).

I've had the same problem when I tried to ride a 26x2.5" tire with an XC casing. It flatted almost instantly when I tried to ride it on a fairly burly DH course even though it'd withstand "normal" riding.

Walt and I both came to the conclusion that with a 29" diameter, you probably don't need a super wide tire to have a resonable DH setup (i.e 2.3" is probably fine), but you do need a much beefier casing than what's currently availible.

So, to sum things up: the Exi weighs 850g. I don't think it's burly enough. Though it's not a rule, in general, a tire needs to be heavier to be more durable. Therefore, I would like to see a tire that weighed 900g at least, so it'd have a chance of standing up to harder riding.

BTW, I like the "snakeskin" idea, too, but does that help with pinch flats?

[shiggy]

Originally Posted by Feldybikes

BTW, I like the "snakeskin" idea, too, but does that help with pinch flats?

Not really. I would use a thicker tube for pinch protection (must check to see if a 26" DH tube will work).

[banks]

The german Conti guy who "designed" the Protection stated to a highly thought of US living tire designer, "It for marketing. The threads are more fragile then the casing it's self. It looks cool".

[shiggy]

Originally Posted by banks

The german Conti guy who "designed" the Protection stated to a highly thought of US living tire designer, "It for marketing. The threads are more fragile then the casing it's self. It looks cool".

Well, it seems to be an effective scuff guard. Maybe it is the extra rubber needed to bond the fibers to the casing.

I also know I pinch flat less with the ProTection version than the Pro version of the same tire.

[edemtbs]

Originally Posted by banks

The german Conti guy who "designed" the Protection stated to a highly thought of US living tire designer, "It for marketing. The threads are more fragile then the casing it's self. It looks cool".

Not sure my friend, who's new front Conti tire exploded on him last year at the Laramie Enduro would take kindly to that kind of talk. He broke his arm in that crash.

Ed E

[banks]

Originally Posted by edemtbs

Not sure my friend, who's new front Conti tire exploded on him last year at the Laramie Enduro would take kindly to that kind of talk. He broke his arm in that crash.

Ed E

****, sorry to hear about that.

The fragility of the casing is on the outside; sharp 'things' rubbing against the casing. Arimid/Kevlar thread is very fragile under tension, moreso then the nylon that the casing is made of. So the user sees the Arimid/Kevlar threads frayed and thinks that it kept the tire from cutting.

An extra layer of Butyl rubber has better sidewall protection versus external 'protection' threading.

Scoty

[edemtbs]

Originally Posted by banks

****, sorry to hear about that.

The fragility of the casing is on the outside; sharp 'things' rubbing against the casing. Arimid/Kevlar thread is very fragile under tension, moreso then the nylon that the casing is made of. So the user sees the Arimid/Kevlar threads frayed and thinks that it kept the tire from cutting.

An extra layer of Butyl rubber has better sidewall protection versus external 'protection' threading.

Scoty

No worries Scoty, not your issue and he's doing well, ready to race again this year. Suspicion was that a sharp rock punctured the sidewall on a fast descent. Needless to say he's using a different tire now.

And, not to hijack, I'd recommend to him the Panaracer's since I've had great luck with those in the past. I'm looking forward to the 29'er versions.

Peace -

Ed E

[Panaracer Jeff]

Hi All,

First, to banks: Not sure who you talked to they're getting screwed if they're paying 125k for machinery and moulds. Kenda's estimate is much more in line with the cost. Have we coughed it up? Yes. Will it be to everyone's exact dream spec? No. Realistically there is no way to please everyone. Some people will be thrilled, others not. As I get updated spec I will post it here. One thing not mentioned is that from drawing to mould is one of the most crucial phases of the process. You would think everyone reads a drawing the same way, but they don't. Ask Shiggy.

Dirt Dad? I think I answered your question above. You are right, either the money to invest is smaller or the product exists in some form already.

Shiggy: Thanks for your confidence! We'll do our best not to let you or anyone else down!

jonas, Shiggy, dirtdad: I can promise you it will be aggressive. I estimate at this point knobs being up to 4mm high. Not side lugs, but knobs. This is our goal. It isn't there yet, but that's what we're aiming for.

Keep it coming people, I love it!

[banks]

Sounds great, but please have the tires sticker be true. Nothing more embarrassing then trying to explain to the customer why the tire says one thing and the calipers do not match up to the sidewall advertisement.
The Conti guy said that the Vapor is a true 2.1" when inflated on a 25mm wide rim @ 65psi

Cheers,

Scoty

[shiggy]

Originally Posted by banks

Sounds great, but please have the tires sticker be true. Nothing more embarrassing then trying to explain to the customer why the tire says one thing and the calipers do not match up to the sidewall advertisement.
The Conti guy said that the Vapor is a true 2.1" when inflated on a 25mm wide rim @ 65psi

Cheers,

Scoty

See my previous posts about "real" or "true" tire sizing.

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.ph...65#post1771665
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.ph...29#post1771929

[shiggy]

Originally Posted by Panaracer Jeff

Hi All,

First, to banks: Not sure who you talked to they're getting screwed if they're paying 125k for machinery and moulds. Kenda's estimate is much more in line with the cost. Have we coughed it up? Yes. Will it be to everyone's exact dream spec? No. Realistically there is no way to please everyone. Some people will be thrilled, others not. As I get updated spec I will post it here. One thing not mentioned is that from drawing to mould is one of the most crucial phases of the process. You would think everyone reads a drawing the same way, but they don't...

Jeff, hopefully the new equipment has the capacity to produce even bigger 29ers in the future. (Dart SC, Dart SC, Dart SC...)

After about 25 years of mtb tires people are spoiled with the selection we now have. It did not happen overnight. We did not even get truly huge 26" tires until ~10 years ago. Most of the 29er tires currently available are wider than the biggest 26" tires available just 15 years ago. Three exceptions come to mind: Ritchey Z-Max 2.35 and Specialized Extreme and More Extreme 2.50 (designed by WTB). All about the same actual size and light XC casings.
The 29er tire market is still only ~7 years old. Most of the tires we have happened in the last 2-3 years. The changeover is happening but it is a little more complicated (and much lower volume) than the music industry moving from LPs to CDs to MP3s. The internet age motto "instant gratification is not soon enough" just does not work when the final product is not 100% electrons.

[Panaracer Jeff]

We'll do our best. As you know, there is some subjectivity involved as tire companies do use the same rims, etc. We're VERY aware of the need for accuracy and I've also talked a lot to our guys in Japan about what I call "Wishful Sizing".