New Images of Fisher Supercal 29 Frame

[FisherGuy]

Hey all, it has been a while since I posted. I wanted to give you an update on the Supercaliber 29 project. Here is an image of how the final frame is going to look. Notice a lot more tube shaping than on the prototypes that I showed last time. We have already built and tested the 26" version of this frame and it came out a lot stiffer and even a bit lighter then the first round prototype. We are supposed to have the new 29er prototype built in another couple of weeks.

I couldn't wait until then to show you though, I'm stoked on how this bike is coming along. Still looking for a May/June delivery. I'll keep you posted on any changes.

[Guitar Ted]

Hey, FisherGuy, those tubes are manipulated every which way from Sunday! Can you tell us if those are Hydro-formed tubes? And, is this model going to be produced in Waterloo, or overseas?

Thanks for that update, I was just wondering whatever happened with that project! Do keep the info coming!

............and get a 29"er in the Trek lineup, why don't-cha?!!

[benwitt11]

Nice looking frame. Any thoughts as to a build kit? It was originally talked about with a full race kit, though some of the prelimianry prices I've seen are lower than one would expect. Thoughts?

[anden]

Good looking! Seems like a long head tube though. Especially for an XC race 29" frame. I already have a negative rise stem on my X-Cal. Hope this head tube will not be longer than that.

[mgersib]

Originally Posted by anden

Good looking! Seems like a long head tube though. Especially for an XC race 29" frame. I already have a negative rise stem on my X-Cal. Hope this head tube will not be longer than that.

i'd bet that drawing is actually the 26-inch version. i certainly wouldn't draw any conclusions from an artist's rendering. an actual geometry chart might be a better place to start.

[FisherGuy]

Yes, GT, the top and down tubes along with the stays are hydroformed. That allows us to integrate the gussets and get all of the stay clearances that we need. We can get everything that we want out of the frame while still staying light.

The Supercaliber 29 will have a RockShox Reba Race and a SRAM X.9 spec. Bontrager Race GXP crank and Race wheels. Avid Juicy 7 brakes. Right now we have the price set at $2859.99.

[kustomz]

I see alot of brands using this location for a swing arm pivot point, so there must be some specifics with rising rates and such terminology that I really don't understand. Any insight?

It just seems like the swingarm should pivot around the bottom bracket! Then there would be no chain growth and we could run it single speed.

[Ranger Pride]

I sent you a PM

[OneGearGuy]

Sweet.
Thanks for the news and for keeping us in the loop!

OGG

[JoelM]

Frameset will be an option or no?

[bigwheelboy_490]

Originally Posted by mgersib

i'd bet that drawing is actually the 26-inch version. i certainly wouldn't draw any conclusions from an artist's rendering. an actual geometry chart might be a better place to start.

I'd guess that that the bike is pretty close to spec. My thoughts are that they use a 3D design package like Inventor or SolidWorks for their design, and they've just taken a jpeg image of the complete file.

Trek used think3 to reverse engineer one of Armstrong's tt frames.

[Chequama Mama]

Sweet! thanks for the update!

That's probably all the FS bike I would ever need...

YO MAMA

[Tbone]

With Sram X9 (not XO?) and Bonty Race wheels (not Racelite??) its on par with a 293 - and you're going to sell it for a thousand dollars higher? Must be some purty damn spiffy Bonty cranks huh???

[Quasi]

Originally Posted by Tbone

With Sram X9 (not XO?) and Bonty Race wheels (not Racelite??) its on par with a 293 - and you're going to sell it for a thousand dollars higher? Must be some purty damn spiffy Bonty cranks huh???

The frame does look a bit more complicated and justifiably more expensive than the Sugar frame. I would guess the extra grand is going into the frame. I doubt Fisher expects to sell many of these, hence a higher margin would be justified. I would still like to see the Fat Possum eventually come out in 29". Let's hope the 26" Fat Possum sells well when it comes out, maybe that would persuade Fisher to offer it in a Big Wheel version too.

[tl1]

not too Supercalifragilistic and breaks a much as the other full suspension Fisher 29"ers!

http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/msupercali.html

[realbiker]

Looks really nice - any comments conserning weight or sizing (same as the actual bikes?)

[Bigwheel]

Comes around.

[Cloxxki]

Strikingly similar. Pivot placement on the Fisher seems more practical to me.
Was was that drawing for, again?

[Bigwheel]

Originally Posted by Cloxxki

Was was that drawing for, again?

[Raymo853]

Originally Posted by FisherGuy

The Supercaliber 29 will have a RockShox Reba Race and a SRAM X.9 spec. Bontrager Race GXP crank and Race wheels. Avid Juicy 7 brakes. Right now we have the price set at $2859.99.

$1100 more than the Paragon! Congrats on just selling a Blur XC

[onepivot]

I'd be interested in a frame only option, please say this will be offered!!

[aabbas]

Originally Posted by onepivot

I'd be interested in a frame only option, please say this will be offered!!

I second that.

[El Caballo]

Originally Posted by kustomz

I see alot of brands using this location for a swing arm pivot point, so there must be some specifics with rising rates and such terminology that I really don't understand. Any insight?

It just seems like the swingarm should pivot around the bottom bracket! Then there would be no chain growth and we could run it single speed.

And it would bob heinously whenever anyone stood up and cranked.

Pivot placement is a compromise. To oversimplify, higher pivot = more anti-squat = more resistance to bob when cranking hard (i.e. imperfect pedal stroke). But also more pedal feedback and less suspension compliance when pedaling.

Since this is intended as a race bike, it's more important for it to be fast than plush. Thus the moderately high pivot.

[kris_flatlander]

Two words....wow....wait that's only one word. Ok then how about, we double the wow's. Anyways this bike is becoming very tempting. I work in a Trek/Fisher/Cannondale dealer and was eyeing a Rush/Prophet for this year. Paragon had crossed my mind but I really wanted to go full suspension. At my height (6'4) the Supercaliber seems uber perfect, it's single pivot it's 29er hell it's even sexy. I look forward to hearing more about it

[FisherGuy]

I got excited to post this information and got a little ahead of myself. As some of you pointed out this ID drawing is of the 26" version. I've requested the 29er version and will post. The tube profiles will look the same, but you noticed the geometry isn't accurate.

The first year out of the blocks it isn't going to be offered as a frame, only complete bike. Do you think I should push for frame only?

Here is a picture showing the pivot in relation to the crank. We placed the pivot too give a really stable rear end under heavy pedaling loads, a race. It is also placed so that the race team can run a 2x9 if they want. The pivot doesn't interfere with the chainrings.

[benwitt11]

Please offer a Frame. I would think that many people seriously considering this bike already own 29ers. I would love to have a frame like this to offer as an upgrade. I have to say that I'm dissappointed that this bike is speced this way. It would have been really nice to have a full out 29er race offering, which iswhat this bike was originally unveiled as.

What is the thinking behind specing it as a Paragon? It would be nice to know the thinking behnd it. I've been really excited about this bike, but that excitement has been tempered quite a bit.

[29inch]

Originally Posted by FisherGuy

The first year out of the blocks it isn't going to be offered as a frame, only complete bike. Do you think I should push for frame only?

Seems like a pricepoint issue to me...at 2900 for a Paragon equiped bike, might be rough...figure buying a paragon AND a frame would be the smarter route for the consumer, at which point the question becomes do they buy the Supercal frame, or another manufacturer's frame?

[benwitt11]

at which point the question becomes do they buy the Supercal frame, or another manufacturer's frame?

My point exactly. Almost every 29 builder offers frames as an option. Not offering a frame takes Fisher out of that catagory. Quite simply, what if my customer likes Shimano parts? For them, the whole process of buying a bike and stripping it, building it up with new parts, and then esentially having a bike laying around in a box is very unappealing. I have had several instances where I have done this for people in my shop. Same thing here though, I'm then left with a full grouppo. A frame option would eliminate this altogether. The 26" frame looks to have a frame option. I would say that for this bike, it would be more valuble to the company to have the 29 available. As one poster said, Santa Cruz looks a lot better in this light.

[Quasi]

Originally Posted by benwitt11

My point exactly. Almost every 29 builder offers frames as an option. Not offering a frame takes Fisher out of that catagory. Quite simply, what if my customer likes Shimano parts? For them, the whole process of buying a bike and stripping it, building it up with new parts, and then esentially having a bike laying around in a box is very unappealing. I have had several instances where I have done this for people in my shop. Same thing here though, I'm then left with a full grouppo. A frame option would eliminate this altogether. The 26" frame looks to have a frame option. I would say that for this bike, it would be more valuble to the company to have the 29 available. As one poster said, Santa Cruz looks a lot better in this light.

Maybe in the "frame" light, but not in the "29er" light, unless you know something about Santa Cruz I don't.

Yes, a frame option would be nice. Especially for those of us who like JJ H-bars or Maverick forks. If the same kit options are available for this bike as are coming out for the Fat Possum (i.e. the top-of-the-line version with the Maverick fork), that might ameliorate the situation of having no frame-only option. In other words, if we can't buy the frame and put what we want on it, we should at least have a lot of choices (low-end and high-end) to make up for this omission. If we don't like all the choices, then we can buy the low-end model and switch out the parts. This is what a lot of us did with the Sugar 293.

By the way, I just got my 2006 293 warranty replacement (due to the cracks in the TT in front of the shock mount). It is top-notch and the new tie-downs are sweet. Thanks GF!!!

[Cloxxki]

I'd only NOT offer a frame-only if I couldn't handle demand for bikes.
I there's sufficient capacity, make a boatload of frames too. If they're under the pricelevel of the competition, they will sell. Paragon and other hardtail owners may want to just upgrade their frame.
Unless the bike is a much lower value than the hardtails, you'll only sell more if you offer this one as a frame too.

Lots of folks are now (ready to) build up FS bikes. Bling whote Brother or Maverick forks, XO kit, the works. They may well want a RaceDay to build up, but to strip...?

[toddre]

I wouldn't say offer only a frame, but Fisher would make a killing if they offered a frame only option. I have my parts that I like and don't like. Most of us here already strip bikes and re-sell the parts to recoup our money. I know I cry poor all the time (which I am) but I'd find a way to buy a frame only if it's priced right.

[realbiker]

If the price and weight for the complete bike are good there is no use for a frame only because in relation to the bike the frame only would be very expensive ...

[DeeZee]

Originally Posted by Quasi

Maybe in the "frame" light, but not in the "29er" light, unless you know something about Santa Cruz I don't.

Yes, a frame option would be nice. Especially for those of us who like JJ H-bars or Maverick forks. If the same kit options are available for this bike as are coming out for the Fat Possum (i.e. the top-of-the-line version with the Maverick fork), that might ameliorate the situation of having no frame-only option. In other words, if we can't buy the frame and put what we want on it, we should at least have a lot of choices (low-end and high-end) to make up for this omission. If we don't like all the choices, then we can buy the low-end model and switch out the parts. This is what a lot of us did with the Sugar 293.

By the way, I just got my 2006 293 warranty replacement (due to the cracks in the TT in front of the shock mount). It is top-notch and the new tie-downs are sweet. Thanks GF!!!

In other words, if we can't buy the frame and put what we want on it, we should at least have a lot of choices (low-end and high-end) to make up for this omission. If we don't like all the choices, then we can buy the low-end model and switch out the parts. This is what a lot of us did with the Sugar 293.

The only stock parts left on my 293 is the frame and fork

[onepivot]

I would venture to guess that most 29er riders have been around long enough to develop strong tastes in parts and have built their own bikes at least once.

I think offering the frame only option would be a smart business strategy. Yes, the frame only is a more expensive way to go but I am at the point in my buying habits & tastes that I can no longer see myself buying a complete bike off the floor.

I have only been riding for five years & most of these guys have been riding much longer than myself. I have to believe they prefer specing their bikes the way THEY like, not having that decision made for them.

The deal maker for me when I bought my Niner One9 was the fact that I could pick (or not pick) from some of the various parts they offered and spec the rest of the bike as I chose

Just my .02.

[Guitar Ted]

I'd probably opt for the frame only, but...............

1.If the fork was a desirable piece, I'd be getting it for a killer price on a complete bike. That's something that's a big expense otherwise.

2.If Bontrager would do something about the flexiness of their wheel package and offer up a redesigned, high end, race level wheelset, (tubeless maybe?), then there is another component that is a major expense had at a bargain price.

The rest I could either live with, or get replaced while saving my ducats, or even sold off piecemeal, much like folks did with their Rigs last year.

I guess what I'm saying is IF Fisher can get a cutting edge fork and the tubeless system on this bike as a complete package, then I probably would rather buy the Race Day 29"er as a complete bike. However, if the spec is really going to be the current Paragon level, or equivelent, than I'd opt for frame only.

FisherGuy, get that tubeless system up and running with a stiff, reliable wheelset, and an updated Reba, (or new fork) and I'll bet others would be interested in a complete package too.

[Appendage]

Originally Posted by Raymo853

$1100 more than the Paragon! Congrats on just selling a Blur XC

Word.

[realbiker]

Originally Posted by Guitar Ted

I'd probably opt for the frame only, but...............

2.If Bontrager would do something about the flexiness of their wheel package and offer up a redesigned, high end, race level wheelset, (tubeless maybe?), then there is another component that is a major expense had at a bargain price.

That's true - and I don't understand why bonti still uses flexy 28 spoke wheelsets when they have great rims with 32 holes.

I use a huegi 240 disc - dt comp. - bonti mustang disc wheelset which is super stiff and weighs only 1840 g with rimstrip - so why don't they offer those wheels on the bikes ???

[jrm]

The first year out of the blocks it isn't going to be offered as a frame, only complete bike. Do you think I should push for frame only?


seeing how now theres the el cap and soon there will be the 29er flux. I'd say that youd shotting yourself in the foot if you didnt offer it frame only.

[barticus]

Originally Posted by kustomz

I see alot of brands using this location for a swing arm pivot point, so there must be some specifics with rising rates and such terminology that I really don't understand. Any insight?

It just seems like the swingarm should pivot around the bottom bracket! Then there would be no chain growth and we could run it single speed.

The pivot around the bottom bracket would be heavily influenced by pedaling. When pushing down on a pedal, the swingarm would want to do nothing but turn around the bottom bracket. It would act just like a first class lever with the fulcrum in the middle between the force (pedal) and the load (rear axle). The pivot point needs to be on the chain line in order to prevent the chain tension from actuating the suspension. The BB concentric pivot eliminates chain growth, true, and makes for an extremely smooth ride, but suffers horribly from pedal leverage.

[2melow]

Originally Posted by jrm

The first year out of the blocks it isn't going to be offered as a frame, only complete bike. Do you think I should push for frame only?


seeing how now theres the el cap and soon there will be the 29er flux. I'd say that youd shotting yourself in the foot if you didnt offer it frame only.

I agree. What is your target customer? Racers. What do racers like to do? Make their bikes as light as possible. You'll sell stock bikes for sure, no doubt. I have a 292. I stripped it of all the heavy stock stuff you guys spec (hey, I work in manufacturing and know how sensitive the BOM/margin is) and sold it on ebay.

I won't buy another complete bike (I spent too much on the 292 and would just swap everything over.)

[shiggy]

Originally Posted by FisherGuy

...The first year out of the blocks it isn't going to be offered as a frame, only complete bike. Do you think I should push for frame only? ...

IIRC when the Xcal and Supercal hardtails were first released you could buy a Supercal frame for about the same price as a complete Xcal.

Why not offer a lower spec complete bike? The frame with build kits?

[kustomz]

Originally Posted by barticus

The pivot around the bottom bracket would be heavily influenced by pedaling.

I assume that since you and others are pointing this out, that you have ridden a Kona A or similar frame with this design and found it to be horrible. Would a stable platform shock overcome this?

[DeeZee]

Originally Posted by kustomz

I assume that since you and others are pointing this out, that you have ridden a Kona A or similar frame with this design and found it to be horrible. Would a stable platform shock overcome this?

Kona A is a 4 bar and you are right it is horrible ride (even with a stable platform shock). My 29" Alum HT is a better ride

[C-Hog]

I already have a Paragon. (Which a really love.) But I'm not interested in buying a complete bike and getting another set of 28-spoke wheels. Either offer a full-bike option with 32-hole tubeless wheels, a high-quality fork, and race-ready components. Or give me a frame-only option. I would GREATLY prefer the later. In fact, I guarantee... You offer a frame-only option one day, and I'll have my order in the next.

[29erchico]

Fisher is really shooting themselves in the foot by continuing to spec those 28h wheels on their high end bikes. Anyone who is spending that kind of cash on a 29er is at least a bit in the know. As in knowing that 28 spokes on a MTB is not the best idea if you value stiffness in a wheel. The fact that the 28h Bonti wheels have been fairly reliable is kind of surprising.

Ok, possibly they bought a trainload of the 28h components and have to use them up. Just put those noodle wheels on the small and medium 29er bikes and get rid of them. Large and XL frames just scream for stouter wheels.

I have bought two XL Fisher 29ers with the 28h wheels and upgrading to a 32/36h splitdrilled wheelset was the best upgrade I ever did.

29erchico

[heavyg]

I second the gentlemen from the left coast on those 28h wheels. They stink for bigger or harder riders. I love the 293, but going to DT 32h wheels were the best upgrade BY FAR...

[max-a-mill]

i would be really excited to try that frame but if there really only is a 2900 dollar option, i'll be buying an astix monk instead when i get the money to scratch that itch.

making only one spec (and an EXPENSIVE one) available, and not offering frame only is gonna loose a you guyz lot of sales IMHO.

like i said i'd likely buy the frame (or maybe even a whole bike with parts comperable to the 292, SOMETHIN BELOW 2 LARGE) but there is no way i could/would spend 2900 to just try this frame out even though i am almost postiive it is EXACTLY the type of bike i'd want (a simple, singlepivot 29er)....

[BruceBrown]

Originally Posted by FisherGuy

The first year out of the blocks it isn't going to be offered as a frame, only complete bike. Do you think I should push for frame only?

Yes! Please push for it to also be available as "frame only".

BB

[FisherGuy]

I know this is going to sound like Fisher doesn't have their act together, but hey, that is the risk in putting out information in advance of a bike's release. When I forwarded this thread to the product manager he informed me that the price that was listed to our dealers and included in this thread was an estimate. We were having dealers who wanted to get their backorders in and we needed to set up a price for them. We estimated high because it is always better to lower a price later then raise it. So this is the accurate price. Sorry for the confusion.

2006 Gary Fisher Supercaliber 29" - $2299.99

[threesixeight]

So, can we call a shop and have one pre-ordered now? Any idea as to the colors available?
Thank you.

Originally Posted by FisherGuy

I know this is going to sound like Fisher doesn't have their act together, but hey, that is the risk in putting out information in advance of a bike's release. When I forwarded this thread to the product manager he informed me that the price that was listed to our dealers and included in this thread was an estimate. We were having dealers who wanted to get their backorders in and we needed to set up a price for them. We estimated high because it is always better to lower a price later then raise it. So this is the accurate price. Sorry for the confusion.

2006 Gary Fisher Supercaliber 29" - $2299.99

[FisherGuy]

The part numbers are set up so you can place an order.

The color is black/silver two tone. I don't have a picture yet, but will post when I do.

[Soupboy]

Not to be negative, but I can't imagine how this is not incredibly flexy. Effectively one point of contact and a longer than normal lever. I want this to be stiff, but I just can't see how it is. It sure can't be that much lighter than a Lev which to me has to be materially stiffer than this bike.

Maybe a rocker link like the Ventana Pantera/Chamuco might work...?

Even Devin has said that he didn't go with the eccentric main pivot design on the Lev because the incremental CS length made it flexier (and created clearance issues?). This bike place the main, and only, pivot a couple inches further forward than that.

Regardless - thanks for pushing the 29er goodness.

[DeeZee]

Originally Posted by Soupboy

Not to be negative, but I can't imagine how this is not incredibly flexy. Effectively one point of contact and a longer than normal lever. I want this to be stiff, but I just can't see how it is. It sure can't be that much lighter than a Lev which to me has to be materially stiffer than this bike.

Maybe a rocker link like the Ventana Pantera/Chamuco might work...?

Even Devin has said that he didn't go with the eccentric main pivot design on the Lev because the incremental CS length made it flexier (and created clearance issues?). This bike place the main, and only, pivot a couple inches further forward than that.

Regardless - thanks for pushing the 29er goodness.

Owning several suspension designs here are my rankings (in my experience):

3. Single pivot. I had a SC Super Light and Bullit and they were not a laterally stiff as other designs.
2. 4-bar. Man too many to list! Spend the most time on an Intense Tracer and Uzzi SLX. Not bad but not great.
1. VPP. Owned a 5.5 and found it very stiff. I also jumped on a friends SC Nomad and it felt great (for a 26� bike).

My Sugar is not super stiff but it also does not wag like a dog’s tail either. I was considering a Lenz or Ventana but decided to hold out for the Intense Spider.

[Quasi]

Originally Posted by FisherGuy

2006 Gary Fisher Supercaliber 29" - $2299.99

Aack, you really want to take my money don't you? That is a much more tempting price. Is that spec'd out similar to a 292 or similar to a 293?

[unotache]

Originally Posted by FisherGuy

The part numbers are set up so you can place an order.

The color is black/silver two tone. I don't have a picture yet, but will post when I do.

Can you list the full-spec and geo?
Is may-june still the ETA?

Thanks!

[unoveloce]

Are you thinking of a full squish? After you so obviously named your son after the former head of Bridgestone! For shame!

[unotache]

Originally Posted by unoveloce

Are you thinking of a full squish? After you so obviously named your son after the former head of Bridgestone! For shame!

Leave me alone, why don't you do some thing productive like posting obvious stupid questions to my Spam thread so it too gets bumped each day my Orbea doesn't sell.