New 29er out of S3 steel!

[mintbiker]

Woo Hoo!

We finally have enough engineering done on the S3 tubeset to build our first 29er out of the stuff! We built a S3 26er for Interbike and had it displayed, but there was little attention paid to the frame. Now after beating the snot out of the frame for the past season, we are going to produce a S3 29er frameset with some new custom chainstays specifically made for handling thick tires with adequate clearance. I will keep anyone who wants to know about this frame in the loop on or off the list, whatever is most appropriate. But the big 29er shop here in AZ "Slippery Pig Bikes" is stoked to see it and get people out on some of the new S3 bikes.

Mint Cycles Crew

[HoSS]

I'm definately interested but pricing is obviously a concern. Any idea what these frames are going to run?

[mintbiker]

Originally Posted by HoSS

I'm definately interested but pricing is obviously a concern. Any idea what these frames are going to run?

Starting at $1,100 for a fully custom frame.

[edouble]

who are you talking about?, who makes this frame?. whats the geometry of the different sizes?, are there pics available?.

[Law]

I would love to see:

1) Posted pics and closeups of welds etc.
2) Weight of frame and bike
3) un-biased reviews if possible
4) company history. I have never heard of you guys.


Thanks

[kustomz]

Ok then, but you gotta admit that was one bad troll. Maybe that is what you should name the bike, the Troll, as in looking for little wheel bikes to harass.

http://www.bellydance.org/images/troll.gif

[lessgearsmorebeers]

I have seen some of the slippery pigs other designs and they are quite interesting like that dual drive. I thought it was a gimmick till he let me demo it what a sweet riding single speed. I have also seen an S3 built road frame in 58cm with stock Dura ace at less than 17lbs. I cannot wait to see the images of a 29er in S3. Keep us posted by the way do you have a web site, or any way to see the other stuff you've done?

[bikecop]

What's an S3 tubeset? Reynolds...TrueTemper....copper?

[Guitar Ted]

Originally Posted by bikecop

What's an S3 tubeset? Reynolds...TrueTemper....copper?

Salsa has a road bike coming made out of the stuff, as well.

[Law]

Originally Posted by Guitar Ted

Salsa has a road bike coming made out of the stuff, as well.

Yeah, I have seen a few road bikes with the stuff. Curtlo among others has been using the tube set for a couple of years for road. Stuff has a weight limit folks! The following is cut and pasted directly from the Curtlo website.

"CUSTOM S3 ROAD

Featuring the same basic features as the Custom Road model, the S3 takes performance and lightweight to a new level. Built from the new True Temper S3 Super Strong Steel tubing. This tubing is hand crafted in the USA from an advanced Air Hardening alloy. S3 tubing has been optimized in every way to deliver ultimate light weight steel road frame.

NOTE: Limited frame size and rider weights"



I hope this company is insured, because I don't think this is necessarily a wise move. Unless you are lightweight and not adverse to risk, I don't know why a person would take a chance.

For road if I remember correctly, Doug at Curtlo said that 175-185 is about the weight limit for his S3 road frame. I don't know what the weight limit would be for an MTB. Scary though in my opinion without some scientific testing. Just riding one or two frames isn't going to cut it for me.

SOrry to be negative. Good luck though, and who knows....you guys may be totally safe.

[mintbiker]

Originally Posted by edouble

who are you talking about?, who makes this frame?. whats the geometry of the different sizes?, are there pics available?.

OK so we are a conglomerate of a couple of local bike shop guys, a couple of framebuilder guys...(both worked for another Tempe Arizona frame builder for years) and a heavy presence of aerospace engineering and testing, since two of our crew work at aerospace shops until you all start buying our frames. So that gives us about a combined total of 12 years of frame building experience, 8 years of hands on aerospace experience, and to be honest, we think we can make a really nice spectrum of frames. Needless to say, we are not hacks, and we have done destructive and nondestructive testing in an aerospace environment. Not to mention that between our frame builders, they have produced some 8,000 frames over the course of their framebuilding career. They have built all types of frames, road, mountain, full-suspenders, downhill, and well some other crazy projects.

We are trying to work on getting our pricing in position to get a handbuilt 29er in the hands of the masses for an exceptionally reasonable price, and since we are in the habbit of pushing the design envelope to the edge a bit we are making one of our flagship bikes a S3 29er!

We are basically getting all our nice bikes together for a photo shoot so we can do something with our website, sorry for the delay, but I think we are close enough now to being done with the site that I feel safe letting the cat out of the bag on Mint Cycles. So there it is! Hope that is a good enough start of an explanation of who we are.

Cheers!

The Mint Crew!

[mintbiker]

S3 is a steel alloy from True Temper and stands for Super Strength Steel...neat eh! It is hardly considered steel anymore because the stuff hardly rusts because of the alloying elements in the material. The short version is that it is REALLY DAMN LIGHT! And not to mention REALLY DAMN STRONG! The stuff is amazing, every bike we built with the stuff has been awesome! Some other builders are using it like Steelman, Rock Lobster, Curtlo...and even Salsa is coming out with a S3 frame. It's really an amazing material to work with. We will have our one S3 rig available for demo from Slippery Pig Bikes after it is built, we will also have about 6-7 OX Platinum 29ers available as well. So anyone who wants to give it a shot is more than wecome to give it a whirl and decide for yourself....and if you still don't like the S3, or OX Platinum, we will be happy to build you a Titanium version if you wish.

Cheers!

[Law]

Originally Posted by mintbiker

OK so we are a conglomerate of a couple of local bike shop guys, a couple of framebuilder guys...(both worked for another Tempe Arizona frame builder for years) and a heavy presence of aerospace engineering and testing, since two of our crew work at aerospace shops until you all start buying our frames. So that gives us about a combined total of 12 years of frame building experience, 8 years of hands on aerospace experience, and to be honest, we think we can make a really nice spectrum of frames. Needless to say, we are not hacks, and we have done destructive and nondestructive testing in an aerospace environment. Not to mention that between our frame builders, they have produced some 8,000 frames over the course of their framebuilding career. They have built all types of frames, road, mountain, full-suspenders, downhill, and well some other crazy projects.

We are trying to work on getting our pricing in position to get a handbuilt 29er in the hands of the masses for an exceptionally reasonable price, and since we are in the habbit of pushing the design envelope to the edge a bit we are making one of our flagship bikes a S3 29er!

We are basically getting all our nice bikes together for a photo shoot so we can do something with our website, sorry for the delay, but I think we are close enough now to being done with the site that I feel safe letting the cat out of the bag on Mint Cycles. So there it is! Hope that is a good enough start of an explanation of who we are.

Cheers!

The Mint Crew!

Sounds good enough to get the benefit of the doubt at the very least. Sounds good!

[mintbiker]

Originally Posted by Law

I would love to see:

1) Posted pics and closeups of welds etc.
2) Weight of frame and bike
3) un-biased reviews if possible
4) company history. I have never heard of you guys.


Thanks

Of course, they should be posted by the end of the next week. I plan on doing an online birth of the S3 29er, and I would love to hear all the feedback from everyone on the forum.

Thanks!

[mintbiker]

Originally Posted by Law

Sounds good enough to get the benefit of the doubt at the very least. Sounds good!

Hey come on by and check out the rigs when they are done. I'll buy the beer and anyone who is the Tempe/Phoenix area is welcome to come and demo the bikes and give me and this forum your unbiased opinion. OK read that again, FREE Beer! and you get to openly rant, criticize, adn subject us to your opinion face to face, or on this forum. We are certain that you will be happy with what you see when we debut the frames. We will keep you posted on the S3 bike while it is being built.

[mintbiker]

Originally Posted by Law

Yeah, I have seen a few road bikes with the stuff. Curtlo among others has been using the tube set for a couple of years for road. Stuff has a weight limit folks! The following is cut and pasted directly from the Curtlo website.

"CUSTOM S3 ROAD

Featuring the same basic features as the Custom Road model, the S3 takes performance and lightweight to a new level. Built from the new True Temper S3 Super Strong Steel tubing. This tubing is hand crafted in the USA from an advanced Air Hardening alloy. S3 tubing has been optimized in every way to deliver ultimate light weight steel road frame.

NOTE: Limited frame size and rider weights"



I hope this company is insured, because I don't think this is necessarily a wise move. Unless you are lightweight and not adverse to risk, I don't know why a person would take a chance.

For road if I remember correctly, Doug at Curtlo said that 175-185 is about the weight limit for his S3 road frame. I don't know what the weight limit would be for an MTB. Scary though in my opinion without some scientific testing. Just riding one or two frames isn't going to cut it for me.

SOrry to be negative. Good luck though, and who knows....you guys may be totally safe.

No need to be sorry, we are not going to be able to do a full S3 frame, we are going to use the NEW round top and down tubes on the bike, with a relieved Platinum head tube, wither a S3 or Platinum Seat Tube....depending on rider weight, Custom 29er stays, and a S3 Wishbone seat stay set up. And yes we are insured....we have about 80,000 in equipment and we all have homes, kids, and stuff we really like. We also know that if we are the company that debuts a frame that cracks/fails then we are dead in the water. I mean come on, if I were a reader of the forum, I would raise the same questions as you are doing right now. I would want proof as well, so come on down and give it a shot, we are going to try it out, and no it has never been done before to my knowledge, but damn all the engineering tells us that we can pull it off, and if not, then we are just going to have to settle for Titanium and Ox Platinum frames. But if it actually rides the way we think it is going to ride.....THEN IT WILL BE *****IN!!!

[peyto]

Originally Posted by mintbiker

S3 is a steel alloy from True Temper and stands for Super Strength Steel...neat eh! It is hardly considered steel anymore because the stuff hardly rusts because of the alloying elements in the material. The short version is that it is REALLY DAMN LIGHT! And not to mention REALLY DAMN STRONG! The stuff is amazing, every bike we built with the stuff has been awesome! Some other builders are using it like Steelman, Rock Lobster, Curtlo...and even Salsa is coming out with a S3 frame. It's really an amazing material to work with. We will have our one S3 rig available for demo from Slippery Pig Bikes after it is built, we will also have about 6-7 OX Platinum 29ers available as well. !

I always assumed that S3 was pretty much the same material as OX Platinum since they have the same UTS, YS and elongation... with S3 just having thinner walls and the oval shapes. Sounds like you guys know what you are doing... but I'm not sure if there will be much of a weight advantage over say a platinum or 853 frame if you increased tube diameters and (hopefully) upped the wall thickness of the tubes (to prevent local buckling).
Sounds like fun though... I've always wanted to see an air-hardening bi-oval MTB downtube...If its 38.1 x .7/.4/.7 -ish then i'll be bugging you guys to sell me a few....
Paul

[mintbiker]

The more I think that it would be a great idea to have a big 29er event here in Phoenix/Tempe to launch these bikes. Anyone interested in coming out for free beer (I'll buy) and a fleet of demo bikes to ride? The only thing we will ask in return is your un-filtered and un-biased opinion.

If we get enough responses we will have an official event, otherwise just take our unofficial invitation.

Cheers!

[mintbiker]

Originally Posted by peyto

I always assumed that S3 was pretty much the same material as OX Platinum since they have the same UTS, YS and elongation... with S3 just having thinner walls and the oval shapes. Sounds like you guys know what you are doing... but I'm not sure if there will be much of a weight advantage over say a platinum or 853 frame if you increased tube diameters and (hopefully) upped the wall thickness of the tubes (to prevent local buckling).
Sounds like fun though... I've always wanted to see an air-hardening bi-oval MTB downtube...If its 38.1 x .7/.4/.7 -ish then i'll be bugging you guys to sell me a few....
Paul

Hey Paul,

We are using round tubes on our29er. We tried the bi-axial-oval tube for the down tube, for our 26er, but I think we need the oversize round tube to pull off the stresses that a 29er will supply to the frame. And yeah...if you want some S3 let me know, I have about 20 bikes worth of tubing.

Cheers!

Mint Crew

[fire horse]

Originally Posted by mintbiker

The more I think that it would be a great idea to have a big 29er event here in Phoenix/Tempe to launch these bikes. Anyone interested in coming out for free beer (I'll buy) and a fleet of demo bikes to ride? The only thing we will ask in return is your un-filtered and un-biased opinion.

If we get enough responses we will have an official event, otherwise just take our unofficial invitation.

Cheers!

maybe come on out to our little race, the Sea Otter Classic?

[DeeZee]

Originally Posted by mintbiker

The more I think that it would be a great idea to have a big 29er event here in Phoenix/Tempe to launch these bikes. Anyone interested in coming out for free beer (I'll buy) and a fleet of demo bikes to ride? The only thing we will ask in return is your un-filtered and un-biased opinion.

If we get enough responses we will have an official event, otherwise just take our unofficial invitation.

Cheers!

I am game but............what kind of beer?

[mintbiker]

Originally Posted by DeeZee

I am game but............what kind of beer?

How about Belgian Tripel Karmeliet? Are you game now?

[HoSS]

Can you tell me why a 29er frame would require a larger down tube than an equal size 26er to provide equal stiffness?

Originally Posted by mintbiker

We are using round tubes on our 29er. We tried the bi-axial-oval tube for the down tube, for our 26er, but I think we need the oversize round tube to pull off the stresses that a 29er will supply to the frame. And yeah...if you want some S3 let me know, I have about 20 bikes worth of tubing.

[HoSS]

Just stumbled across these Mint pics if anyone's interested. Nice looking work.

http://www.handmadebicycleshow.com/framebuilders.lasso?itemid=804&page=1

[mintbiker]

Originally Posted by HoSS

Can you tell me why a 29er frame would require a larger down tube than an equal size 26er to provide equal stiffness?

Sure,

For one, a 29er has a longer down tube because of the extra fork height needed to accomodate a 29 inch wheel and tire.
Second, because an apple to apple comparison of material properties would say that since the down tube is longer than a 26er, it will be under more stress from say landing flat after a jump. So we use a bigger/thicker tube to keep these stresses in check.
Next there is the point that 29ers have a smaller head tube which does not do a great job of minimizing forward flex from the frame..think about the stresses your bike would take if you ran it straight into a wall for example....I know it is a bit extreme, but it helps get the picture across. Now a larger/taller head tube with thetop and down tube junctions spread over a wide space would give better support than a head tube that had the support points on top of eachother.
Another example along these lines is the fact that the taller fork is creating more leverage on the smaller head tube. Think about the breaker/cheater bar concept used to remove or tighten bolts that are siezed....to increase the acting force on a given point you can use the same amount of input force .ie you hand on the wrench...but you can get a greater yeild force at the given point by extending out your hand position on a breaker/cheater bar. Does that make sense? If not then I will be happy to ramble on more.

Hope that helps!

PS thanks for pointing out the NAHMBS site, I didn't know they lauched the pictures yet.

[lessgearsmorebeers]

Wow , are those hand cut lugs? Can you get an image of that top looking down, and do you know if that was ever built up? Beautiful frame work.

[robpennell]

Originally Posted by mintbiker

Sure,

For one, a 29er has a longer down tube because of the extra fork height needed to accomodate a 29 inch wheel and tire.
Second, because an apple to apple comparison of material properties would say that since the down tube is longer than a 26er, it will be under more stress from say landing flat after a jump. So we use a bigger/thicker tube to keep these stresses in check.
Next there is the point that 29ers have a smaller head tube which does not do a great job of minimizing forward flex from the frame..think about the stresses your bike would take if you ran it straight into a wall for example....I know it is a bit extreme, but it helps get the picture across. Now a larger/taller head tube with thetop and down tube junctions spread over a wide space would give better support than a head tube that had the support points on top of eachother.
Another example along these lines is the fact that the taller fork is creating more leverage on the smaller head tube. Think about the breaker/cheater bar concept used to remove or tighten bolts that are siezed....to increase the acting force on a given point you can use the same amount of input force .ie you hand on the wrench...but you can get a greater yeild force at the given point by extending out your hand position on a breaker/cheater bar. Does that make sense? If not then I will be happy to ramble on more.

Hope that helps!

PS thanks for pointing out the NAHMBS site, I didn't know they lauched the pictures yet.

Not to be the bearer of bad news but at 660mm that 38.1mm downtube is not going to cut it for 90% of the sus corrected 29ers. I built a cross bike out of the stuff for my 120 lb wife. Lets just say its a good thing I didnt have it painted right away. I would have been out more money.

[mintbiker]

Originally Posted by robpennell

Not to be the bearer of bad news but at 660mm that 38.1mm downtube is not going to cut it for 90% of the sus corrected 29ers. I built a cross bike out of the stuff for my 120 lb wife. Lets just say its a good thing I didnt have it painted right away. I would have been out more money.

I have my autocad numbers and to pull off a 29er with a Reba at 80mm, and a 23.75 eff TT I have about 10 mm of extra material to work with. I appreciate the post, since I went back to triple check our numbers, but they still work out... Not to say computers are always right, but I will know in about 20 hours if they are wrong.

Cheers!

Mint Crew!

[Law]

Originally Posted by robpennell

Not to be the bearer of bad news but at 660mm that 38.1mm downtube is not going to cut it for 90% of the sus corrected 29ers. I built a cross bike out of the stuff for my 120 lb wife. Lets just say its a good thing I didnt have it painted right away. I would have been out more money.

What happened?

[mintbiker]

OK I had to find out what would happen in the Frame Jig! So I went to the shop and mitered the tubes, set up the Jig and pushed everything to the limit!!! I now have a 29er with:

23.8 eff top tube
REBA 100 fork...better than the 80 Reba we engineered!!!!!!
18 c to c seat tube
73 seat angle....I like a relaxed seat angle.
71.5 head angle
140 head tube
62mm bb drop.....I can change this if needed.

So there you go.....no matter where you go....there you are!

ROCKING!

Mint Cycles



SO I THINK I HAVE COVERED SOMETHING MORE THAN 90% of the 29er sizing. Of course it took some creative fabrication to get it there, but there it is....tacked and ready for me to come back in the morning and finish welding the rest of the front triangle!!!!!!

[mintbiker]

Originally Posted by robpennell

Not to be the bearer of bad news but at 660mm that 38.1mm downtube is not going to cut it for 90% of the sus corrected 29ers. I built a cross bike out of the stuff for my 120 lb wife. Lets just say its a good thing I didnt have it painted right away. I would have been out more money.

I got a 29er with a REBA 100 fork with a 23.8 tt and somewhere at/about 60-65 mm of drop and a rear end to be determined. It may not be 100%, but for the 12 frames in the 29er configuration that I have on order.....70% meet the current S3 design parameters. That is that 70% of my 29er customers can fit on a S3 rig if they chose to. There is a little secret that I am using to make it feasable, but it does not sacrafice a thing with anything on the frame. I'll give you one hint.....stop looking within the box....the lines don't always match up.

Mint Cycles....more soon!!!!!!!

PS I'll be racing this rig at the 24 hours of The Old Pueblo in Tucson if you want a sneak peak. Otherwise you will have to find me at South Mountain in Tempe/Phoenix.

[mintbiker]

Originally Posted by robpennell

Not to be the bearer of bad news but at 660mm that 38.1mm downtube is not going to cut it for 90% of the sus corrected 29ers. I built a cross bike out of the stuff for my 120 lb wife. Lets just say its a good thing I didnt have it painted right away. I would have been out more money.

Did you draw it out by hand or with a CAD program before you started cutting tubes to see if it would work? Why/HOW could you build a frame with something that wouldn't work? Explain what kind of problems you had. I am curious.

Sincerely,

Cinnamint

[shiggy]

Originally Posted by mintbiker

I got a 29er with a REBA 100 fork with a 23.8 tt and somewhere at/about 60-65 mm of drop and a rear end to be determined. It may not be 100%, but for the 12 frames in the 29er configuration that I have on order.....70% meet the current S3 design parameters. That is that 70% of my 29er customers can fit on a S3 rig if they chose to. There is a little secret that I am using to make it feasable, but it does not sacrafice a thing with anything on the frame. I'll give you one hint.....stop looking within the box....the lines don't always match up.

Mint Cycles....more soon!!!!!!!

PS I'll be racing this rig at the 24 hours of The Old Pueblo in Tucson if you want a sneak peak. Otherwise you will have to find me at South Mountain in Tempe/Phoenix.

I think Rob is implying the DT failed on his wife's 'cross bike.

[robpennell]

Originally Posted by shiggy

I think Rob is implying the DT failed on his wife's 'cross bike.

Yea, first crash it buckled the top and down tubes right in the center of both tubes. I'm not saying its not good material for its intended use. I think it would make a great road frame but it didnt live through being flipped end over end a few times. Maybe it was just bad luck but I wont be using it for anything but road frames for light riders.

[robpennell]

Originally Posted by mintbiker

Did you draw it out by hand or with a CAD program before you started cutting tubes to see if it would work? Why/HOW could you build a frame with something that wouldn't work? Explain what kind of problems you had. I am curious.

Sincerely,

Cinnamint

I draw all my bikes using CAD. I didn’t try it on a 29er but experience tells me that I would have to use a really long head tube to make a down tube that length work. That pushes my handlebars way up there where I don’t want them to be. But hey, what works for you works for you. Please don’t think I’m trying to rain on your product launch here. I wish you guys all the best but I think S3 may be pushing it a little. Just my opinion.

[mward]

So if you think this S3 is strong enough what sort of warranty are you going to offer?

[peyto]

Originally Posted by mintbiker

I got a 29er with a REBA 100 fork with a 23.8 tt and somewhere at/about 60-65 mm of drop and a rear end to be determined. It may not be 100%, but for the 12 frames in the 29er configuration that I have on order.....70% meet the current S3 design parameters. That is that 70% of my 29er customers can fit on a S3 rig if they chose to. .

Woah. I assumed from your previous posts that you were having custom tubes made by true temper. (hence my interest in getting in on it) I'm surprised that 660mm is long enough for any 29er with suspension. And I have to agree with the other posters that those tubes are waaay light for off road use. I've seen foco and zona tubes buckle fairly easily (yes they are made from a weaker material, but they are thicker too) on 26" bikes. I would do LOTS of testing before letting one of those out the door. Just my humble opinion, but I think other builders would agree.

[mintbiker]

Originally Posted by robpennell

Yea, first crash it buckled the top and down tubes right in the center of both tubes. I'm not saying its not good material for its intended use. I think it would make a great road frame but it didnt live through being flipped end over end a few times. Maybe it was just bad luck but I wont be using it for anything but road frames for light riders.

Was it Tig, Brazed, Lugged? What kind of clearance did you have between the bottom of the down tube and the bottom of the head tube? What kind of clearance on top? I remember seeing 160lb pros desimate their bikes for two seasons of racing and training without a failure. What length fork did you use....Just curious since I have not seen many failures.

[mintbiker]

Originally Posted by mward

So if you think this S3 is strong enough what sort of warranty are you going to offer?

I'll let you know after we do some drop offs here at South Mountain on it. Probably not a lifetime warranty, but we'll see.

Hey we just said we could build it....give us a chance to test it as well!

Mint Crew

[mintbiker]

Originally Posted by robpennell

I draw all my bikes using CAD. I didn’t try it on a 29er but experience tells me that I would have to use a really long head tube to make a down tube that length work. That pushes my handlebars way up there where I don’t want them to be. But hey, what works for you works for you. Please don’t think I’m trying to rain on your product launch here. I wish you guys all the best but I think S3 may be pushing it a little. Just my opinion.

I draw my bikes in Solidworks and a frame specific CAD program. But I have to build a frame around a specific fork, or genre of forks to dictate where my head tube will sit in space. Then I have to make it shorter than a comparable 26er because the fork height is massive for a 29er suspension fork, but I choose to make my head tube shorter as to keep the handle bars at a comfortable height. The rider compartment on the 29er is an exact copy of my 26er for saddle height, seat angle, TT length, and handlebar drop. That is why the S3 set in it's current configuration is difficult to make into a 29er. The down tube is shorter than what most people are using for a 29er frame....but there are always ways.....

Mojito

[robpennell]

Originally Posted by mintbiker

I draw my bikes in Solidworks and a frame specific CAD program. But I have to build a frame around a specific fork, or genre of forks to dictate where my head tube will sit in space. Then I have to make it shorter than a comparable 26er because the fork height is massive for a 29er suspension fork, but I choose to make my head tube shorter as to keep the handle bars at a comfortable height. The rider compartment on the 29er is an exact copy of my 26er for saddle height, seat angle, TT length, and handlebar drop. That is why the S3 set in it's current configuration is difficult to make into a 29er. The down tube is shorter than what most people are using for a 29er frame....but there are always ways.....

Mojito

What I was trying to say above is that I could not build a sus corrected 29er with that tube. Not with the downtube actually touching the BB and giving room for the poplock. Head tube shorter? You show a 140mm (5.5in) headtube above. Thats not short for a 29er. I ran a drawing using your specs above and the down tube is still too short. Two framebuilders (peyto and I) are both saying its too short. You say you have a little trick so show us. Come on! You hit this list stating you were going to produce an S3 29er and you even gave a price. Now your in the testing phase? Which is it? Hey, you dont have to worry about competition from me. The odds of me building any type of offroad bike with S3 are about even with hitting Lucifer in head with a snowball.

[Crash_Burn]

Originally Posted by robpennell

You say you have a little trick so show us.

I always thought the Surly KM seat tube bend was pretty "tricky". Maybe it serves a couple of purposes.

[Francis Buxton]

Gotta agree with Rob here. The shortest possible tube length that I can see is 667mm, and that's for an 80mm corrected fork, with no attention give to the Poploc and a 72deg HTA. I got 656mm when I went to an EBB, but that's literally from tip of miter cut to tip of miter cut. I'd say both figures need at least 5-10mm additional true tube length to cut from, and then add 10+mm for going from my 90mm HT to your 140mm HT to allow for the Poploc. These numbers all come straight out of AutoCAD, so they are "engineering world" numbers, which tend to need a little fudge factor going into "reality world" numbers.

And I don't believe that Rob's design or construction failed. It's the tubing that failed. His wife crashed the frame. When it went end over end, the tubes buckled in the center of the top and down tubes. It had nothing to do with the jointing method and more with a very thin-walled tubing.

Again, not trying to hate, but simply trying to make sense out of something that appears (at least to a few of us) to be impossible.

[lanpope]

Originally Posted by robpennell

What I was trying to say above is that I could not build a sus corrected 29er with that tube....The odds of me building any type of offroad bike with S3 are about even with hitting Lucifer in head with a snowball.

Whoa guys - let's take it easy here.

Rob if he has a cool framebuilding trick let him keep it to himself until "gameday" so to speak. I think it is neat that he is pushing the envelope with this tubeset whatever the ultimate outcome. Let's give the guy a little time eh? He's just using the board to stir up interest in a new product - heck that's what the board is for right?

In any case - I'd bet he still won't build a bike as sweet as that lugged cross bike of yours with the straight blade fork. I cannot get that thing out of my mind...

Everybody is after the same thing here...let's just get along...

I for one am anxious to see what he comes up with, though I will not be a likely customer.

LP

[robpennell]

Originally Posted by lanpope

Whoa guys - let's take it easy here.

Rob if he has a cool framebuilding trick let him keep it to himself until "gameday" so to speak. I think it is neat that he is pushing the envelope with this tubeset whatever the ultimate outcome. Let's give the guy a little time eh? He's just using the board to stir up interest in a new product - heck that's what the board is for right?

In any case - I'd bet he still won't build a bike as sweet as that lugged cross bike of yours with the straight blade fork. I cannot get that thing out of my mind...

We are all after the same thing here...let's just get along...

I for one am anxious to see what he comes up with, though I will not be a likely customer.

LP

Ok. Sorry for being a hater. Like I said before I wish these guys all the best. I was under the impression this list was not intended for product ads for OEM's and I've tried to follow that rule. It seems the last couple of months things have changed. If I jumped on here talking about the new curved tubed 29er with a bent triple down tube or the 36er front triangle sitting in my jig with the intent of drumming up new business that would be spam imo.

Thanks, that cross bike turned out pretty nice. Check out the Mintcycles lugged SS bike linked above. Great looking bike.

[mintbiker]

Originally Posted by robpennell

Ok. Sorry for being a hater. Like I said before I wish these guys all the best. I was under the impression this list was not intended for product ads for OEM's and I've tried to follow that rule. It seems the last couple of months things have changed. If I jumped on here talking about the new curved tubed 29er with a bent triple down tube or the 36er front triangle sitting in my jig with the intent of drumming up new business that would be spam imo.

Thanks, that cross bike turned out pretty nice. Check out the Mintcycles lugged SS bike linked above. Great looking bike.

Hey Everyone,

I did it...the frame is in the jig...I was so stoked to get it rolling that I stayed up to 1 am to make sure everything would work. I'll disclose my custom fab trick to any builder that wants to know about it after the debut at the NAHMBS show in San Jose. Come on now, I would be skeptical about this claim if I were lurking on this list, but after almost a year of engineering and "fanageling" with all options, we decided to make a leap and say that we "could" do it. We have built a ton of S3 bikes and have had a great experience with the material. We are now making a leap into a segment that has not been touched by S3 before. And to be honest, I am surprised we are the first to try this. S3 is an amazing material, and dollar to dollar kicks the snot out of the stuff we were putting out at the other Ti AZ builder...who shall not be named. So give us a chance to show what we can do....we did it, and we are not making a clam of how great it is until we have a working model that we can huck off drop-offs at South Mountain and in Santa Cruz, CA. So give us a little breathing room, and we will share what we know with all builders, and customers ASAP.

Much Love to all the builders giving their opinions and thoughts! We welcome it and we have some answers that we will be happy to share in a short period of time. Until then, consider this a great place to watch a S3 29er put through it's prototype paces. If it fails, then you will have a great lesson in what not to do, if it flys, then we will share our info and you can make one for yourself oru your customers if you feel it is something that works for you.

Cheers!

Mojito

[Bigwheel]

Originally Posted by robpennell

Ok. If I jumped on here talking about the new curved tubed 29er with a bent triple down tube or the 36er front triangle sitting in my jig with the intent of drumming up new business that would be spam imo.

Screw it, bring it on, but remember it is a pretty tough crowd here

[losjefes]

I can see a way that they can get away with using such a short downtube, but it'll require a long TT butt and a big fat gusset to fill in behind the lower portion of the HT...

BUT, those tubes are not going to provide adequate torsional rigidity if built into a traditional diamond frame. And if you're drawing new tubes with thicker walls, then they're no longer S3, but just new Platinum tubes. Remember that stronger steel is not stiffer steel.

And they're going to be very prone to damage during crashes. Not only will front impacts be a problem, but dings to tubes will be a problem, especially with larger diameter tubes.

That said, I hope I'm wrong and that you defy the odds. The chainstays sure sound interesting (and long overdue.)

[akdeluxe]

Wow. I was going to introduce my new green chili recipe to everyone. But,after what happened to Mint,I don't know now. Tough room here.


akdeluxe

[Francis Buxton]

I may be part of the crowd that a)wonders if it's truly possible and b)wonders if it's truly a good idea, but I still want to see it if he's able to build it. It was "in the jig" two days ago and I am curious to see it.

[Crash_Burn]

Originally Posted by Francis Buxton

It was "in the jig" two days ago and I am curious to see it.

I'am of the curious crowd

a) Is it bracing, swooping, bending, very tight diamond

b) will it be stiff enough for people over 190lbs

[Francis Buxton]

Originally Posted by Crash_Burn

b) will it be stiff enough for people over 190lbs

I think the answer to that is "no". I'm not claiming to know much about S3, but from what I hear it's designed for riders <180lbs on compact road frames. I don't think a 190lb rider off-road with a long down tube would be covered.

I'll let Mint speak to that for themselves, but I have a feeling it would be a race-day bike to use for a season and then walk away from rather than a "lifetime keeper".

[LJintheUK]

I suppose you could get the length you need with long lugs.

[Crash_Burn]

Originally Posted by LJintheUK

I suppose you could get the length you need with long lugs.

I was wondering if they have a one piece oversize BB shell with lugs to brace the distance.

Here's a pic of Pinarello's attempt to help stiffen up a race tubeset.

[WEBERTIME]

Originally Posted by LJintheUK

I suppose you could get the length you need with long lugs.

But S3 is Race/Light stuff... Why bother with "longer" i.e. heavier, lugs? When a "regular" Platinum (or equal) tube would do the job with less complication/risk? An oversized BB seems strange for a smallish??? company. Thats a lot of testing ($$$) which might not be feasible?? I guess I'm trying say that everything I can think of doing to make it work, doesn't seem to make any sense for a tubeset/design/intention/company size like this. No hating intended just really sort of baffled. Anyway someone my size might get away with using it as a stem or something... Good luck guys (with all models) its nice to see what seems to me, like a blooming on new small shops, a lot like the good ole days.

[mintbiker]

We Did It!

29er out of S3 steel and some other custom parts!!! The bike looks great! I will have pictures up in less than 24 hours! Please feel free to comment on the bike in any way you feel is intellectually fit.

Love,

Mint Cycles

[Crash_Burn]

Originally Posted by mintbiker

We Did It!
29er out of S3 steel and some other custom parts!!!

Hmmm.... "custom parts" = cnc

Just having fun with this post - but is'nt the last 10% what defines success?

Something to do with Devils and Details.

Thanks for bringing this to mtbr before the hand built show! - I wonder if the show participants will be more critical of your work?

[mintbiker]

Originally Posted by Crash_Burn

Hmmm.... "custom parts" = cnc

Just having fun with this post - but is'nt the last 10% what defines success?

Something to do with Devils and Details.

Thanks for bringing this to mtbr before the hand built show! - I wonder if the show participants will be more critical of your work?

...putting on cable stops and reaming the seat tube and head tube. All major structural work is complete!

Custom parts does NOT equal CNC, just a little creativity. I'll give you a hint that anyone who was riding mountain bikes when plush suspension meant riding 2.3 tires.....Gary Fisher did this engineering trick on some of his bikes...

More soon!

Mojito

[mintbiker]

Originally Posted by mintbiker

...putting on cable stops and reaming the seat tube and head tube. All major structural work is complete!

Custom parts does NOT equal CNC, just a little creativity. I'll give you a hint that anyone who was riding mountain bikes when plush suspension meant riding 2.3 tires.....Gary Fisher did this engineering trick on some of his bikes...

More soon!

Mojito

By the way, I think the builders at the show will give about the same level of critical inspection for this project. I brought the bike to one of the industry big guns last night...since he was in town for the Winterbike show down the street from the Mint shop. He was very excited about the bike and after he had it in his hands, he felt a lot better about the use of S3 in the frameset, he said it seemed to be plenty strong, even for a 29er application. So the new S3 bike is off to a good start so far.

And as I told the MTBR listees, I want all comments, because I think as builders we look to forums like this to tackle all issues or concerns before we make something drastically new. Basically you are the "Think Tank" of most cycling companies. Having the ideas of ten people is a good thing, but having a few thousand kick in their two cents is much better, we can then weed out the garbage, and take a much broader pool of ideas and put them to work.

Thanks for all your help so far!

Mojito

[mintbiker]

OK Forum folks!

Here is your first peak at the worlds only known True Temper S3 29er! It will be painted this week and be on the trail by this weekend, or next at the latest. It will be raced at the 24 hours of the Old Pueblo in Tucson in a few weeks. And, will be on display at the NAHBS show in San Jose in March. After the show, it will be at Slippery Pig Bikes in Phoenix for anyone to demo free of charge. Give us your opinion, because if this actually works well, we are going to push True Temper to make us some custom tubes for future bikes.

Love,

Mojito

[mward]

Originally Posted by mintbiker

And as I told the MTBR listees, I want all comments, because I think as builders we look to forums like this to tackle all issues or concerns before we make something drastically new. Basically you are the "Think Tank" of most cycling companies.

Translation: Everyone here is an unpaid R&D consultant and we can't afford to do a real product launch like niner bikes did so we're going to spam up the forum and keep bumping our post to the top with updates. LAME.

[Singlespeedpunk]

Another shot sans baseball cap?

looks nice, I guess there was quite a bit of work in that wishbone? What about the disc mount...I normally put a little brace between the seat and chainstay below the top mounting hole...just to stiffen it up a little.

Can't wait to see it painted.

Alex

[gonzostrike]

Originally Posted by mintbiker

Woo Hoo!

We finally have enough engineering done on the S3 tubeset to build our first 29er out of the stuff! We built a S3 26er for Interbike and had it displayed, but there was little attention paid to the frame. Now after beating the snot out of the frame for the past season, we are going to produce a S3 29er frameset with some new custom chainstays specifically made for handling thick tires with adequate clearance. I will keep anyone who wants to know about this frame in the loop on or off the list, whatever is most appropriate. But the big 29er shop here in AZ "Slippery Pig Bikes" is stoked to see it and get people out on some of the new S3 bikes.

Mint Cycles Crew

is TT still qualifying sales of S3 with "racing only, lightweight riders only"?

[mintbiker]

Originally Posted by mward

Translation: Everyone here is an unpaid R&D consultant and we can't afford to do a real product launch like niner bikes did so we're going to spam up the forum and keep bumping our post to the top with updates. LAME.

...a place where ideas are shared and integrated. I came out and disclosed that we are a company, I can name 20 companies who post as consumers when they really work for the company they are posting positive comments for. We just had the honesty to disclose the fact that we are a manufacturer to the forum.

Last I checked, more information is better than less information, even if the information is opinionated. We have plenty of experience in building bikes, but it is always great to shoot the breeze with other cyclists to make sure we are building what people want today. If you don't like our desire to get your input, then by all means don't give it. But I have had over 50 people email me on and off the forum giving input on this bike. And I appreciate all the info and opinions, it has helped us in our other 29er designs.


So once again, thank you all for your input...more good stuff to come soon!

Mojito

[CokerTire]

Originally Posted by mintbiker

...a place where ideas are shared and integrated. I came out and disclosed that we are a company, I can name 20 companies who post as consumers when they really work for the company they are posting positive comments for. We just had the honesty to disclose the fact that we are a manufacturer to the forum.

Last I checked, more information is better than less information, even if the information is opinionated. We have plenty of experience in building bikes, but it is always great to shoot the breeze with other cyclists to make sure we are building what people want today. If you don't like our desire to get your input, then by all means don't give it. But I have had over 50 people email me on and off the forum giving input on this bike. And I appreciate all the info and opinions, it has helped us in our other 29er designs.


So once again, thank you all for your input...more good stuff to come soon!

Mojito

So did those 50 people just give you input on the design or were they also asking about getting a frame?

[mintbiker]

Originally Posted by CokerTire

So did those 50 people just give you input on the design or were they also asking about getting a frame?

100% had input to give on design. 20% also wanted a deal on the frame since they helped, or offered to try to break the frame as part of R&D, and a few are actually ordering a 29er from us.

Mojito

[DMFT]

Mojito - What approx. weight do you think that frame will be with Powder? And, what size is that? Thanks.

- Looks nice btw....

[mintbiker]

Originally Posted by DMFT

Mojito - What approx. weight do you think that frame will be with Powder? And, what size is that? Thanks.

- Looks nice btw....

I will be near a digital scale and can get an accurate weight. It is no feather weight, but I am going to leverage some serious cash that it will ride awesome! The sizing is 18.5 c-c seat tube with a 23.8 top tube, fitted with a REBA 100 fork. Thanks for the comment, I will get pictures of the finished frame ASAP.

Mojito

[lessgearsmorebeers]

I have been on a few threads throughout this site, and it always seems to me that someone has to start being negative. I'm not talking about playing "devils-advocate" and challenging ideas or designs. I mean actually casting judgment and condescending the people that are on here hoping to grow cycling in general be it Mint with a whole new design and application for an existing material, or someone just looking for advice trying a new activity.
The fact that a manufacturer should have to come on and defend their actions, regarding asking for your advice and comments on a new design. That is why there are big box dealers gouging the public and why places like Target and Walmart can get away selling half ass bikes. The manufacturers that used to care now just want you money. Here was a manufacturer asking for input and opinions and instead they some "tool" about as useful as a solar powered flashlight, has to comeout and wank on line.
I say thanks for pushing the envelope and if it fails we are all better for it, if it works then the 29er just dropped 2lbs and we are still better for it.
"mward" the next time you feel like being yourself ask your cell mate to smack the b!tch out of you from the backside again.
I didn't mean to offend anybody here but my god, can't we just get along.

[DMFT]

Thanks Mojito.
Best of luck to you guys.

[Ligero]

Originally Posted by mintbiker

I will be near a digital scale and can get an accurate weight. It is no feather weight, but I am going to leverage some serious cash that it will ride awesome! The sizing is 18.5 c-c seat tube with a 23.8 top tube, fitted with a REBA 100 fork. Thanks for the comment, I will get pictures of the finished frame ASAP.

Mojito

I am confused, you say it is no featherweight. Then why use S3 tubing? I thought S3 was used to build superlight steel frames. If it does not build a lightweight frame then why go through all of the trouble of welding the down tube to the seat tube instead of the bottom bracket?

[mward]

Originally Posted by lessgearsmorebeers

"mward" the next time you feel like being yourself ask your cell mate to smack the b!tch out of you from the backside again.
I didn't mean to offend anybody here but my god, can't we just get along.

Ah yes and what did you accomplish here? Did your post add anything to the overall experience? Are you trying to get along? Hello? Pot, kettle, black? Just because you bought something from someone doesn't make them your best friends, I realize you need something to hold on to to make yourself feel good but this line in your profile gives it all away:

Bike Setup:
Mint: Polished Lug, S3, brooks saddle rohloff internal, mustach bars, the sickest custom bike ever built. You guys have to buy a steel or custom from Mint.

Translation: I love mint bikes, don't talk bad about em!

I was calling a spade a spade. This board has gotten worse and worse lately with manufs soliciting purchases and rolling out products on here in such a way that it indicates they're using mtbr as their marketing tool. When you have that sort of atmosphere in an online forum, the commerciality of it, it ruins the normal good vibes of the forum. I'm opposed to it. Sorry I made fun of your girlfriends. Do you realize 3 GOOD 29er builders with proven track records have stopped posting in the forum because of this blatant horse crap?

[b12yan88]

Originally Posted by mintbiker

OK Forum folks!
And, will be on display at the NAHBS show in San Jose in March.

Speaking of the show and demos. Is NAHBS just a show for our viewinng pleasure, or should i wear riding clothes ?

[mintbiker]

Originally Posted by losjefes

I can see a way that they can get away with using such a short downtube, but it'll require a long TT butt and a big fat gusset to fill in behind the lower portion of the HT...

BUT, those tubes are not going to provide adequate torsional rigidity if built into a traditional diamond frame. And if you're drawing new tubes with thicker walls, then they're no longer S3, but just new Platinum tubes. Remember that stronger steel is not stiffer steel.

And they're going to be very prone to damage during crashes. Not only will front impacts be a problem, but dings to tubes will be a problem, especially with larger diameter tubes.

That said, I hope I'm wrong and that you defy the odds. The chainstays sure sound interesting (and long overdue.)

"Don't judge the artist until he has finished with his masterpiece"
Good advice from and old man..

[mintbiker]

Originally Posted by mward

Ah yes and what did you accomplish here? Did your post add anything to the overall experience? Are you trying to get along? Hello? Pot, kettle, black? Just because you bought something from someone doesn't make them your best friends, I realize you need something to hold on to to make yourself feel good but this line in your profile gives it all away:

Bike Setup:
Mint: Polished Lug, S3, brooks saddle rohloff internal, mustach bars, the sickest custom bike ever built. You guys have to buy a steel or custom from Mint.

Translation: I love mint bikes, don't talk bad about em!

I was calling a spade a spade. This board has gotten worse and worse lately with manufs soliciting purchases and rolling out products on here in such a way that it indicates they're using mtbr as their marketing tool. When you have that sort of atmosphere in an online forum, the commerciality of it, it ruins the normal good vibes of the forum. I'm opposed to it. Sorry I made fun of your girlfriends. Do you realize 3 GOOD 29er builders with proven track records have stopped posting in the forum because of this blatant horse crap?

We have plenty of people who love mint bikes..nobody said you had to like us, but you can take your anger and hate elsewhere. We don't care. We wanted to build the lightest rideable steel 29er and I think we accomplished that goal. Sure we could have built it out of Ti or scandium and gotten lighter, but I want steel. If you don't then thats cool, but if you don't have anything nice/constructive to say then........

Mojito

[mintbiker]

Originally Posted by b12yan88

Speaking of the show and demos. Is NAHBS just a show for our viewinng pleasure, or should i wear riding clothes ?

Sorry it is spoken for for a few days after the show it has appointments in Phoenix...but we can put you on the list

[mintbiker]

Originally Posted by Crash_Burn

I'am of the curious crowd

a) Is it bracing, swooping, bending, very tight diamond

Not really

b) will it be stiff enough for people over 190lbs

I am a snazzle over 200lbs, I built it for me, it is not small or wimpy.

[unotache]

Originally Posted by mintbiker

We have plenty of people who love mint bikes..Mojito

lessgearsmorebeers
mtbr member


Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 21 Interest in custom bikes ?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I was just curious, I am involved with a new company and established builder what type of interest is out there for a truely custom frame, hard tail, single speed, 29er, you name it that can be made out of any material( Alu, Steel, Ti)? I am personally cutting the lugs and working on some design aspects but the craftsmenship is top notch and the builder is proven both with a well known company and as a private frame builder in the past. What would people pay and what are their interests and motivations? Thanks to anyone that responds. Were looking for input from everyone, whether we listen or not is another story?

[Crash_Burn]

Originally Posted by mintbiker

I am a snazzle over 200lbs, I built it for me, it is not small or wimpy.

Thanks for the reply, I personally have enjoyed your posts.

It's funny how people complain that the board should not be used for commercial purposes. This is the internet folks, this is'nt some private fraternity that has a secret hand shake to get in. If you feel this post goes beyond what is acceptable behavior on a MTBR forum then maybe you should rethink why your here in the first place. People are making money every time you click your mouse.

The 29er board has become a multi-use trail, it has been widened, it is no longer the single track you lovingly cherish.

Looks like Ligero figured you out - you gonna unveil soon?

From the discoloration on the DT and ST at the BB junction It looks like you lingered with the heat. How would rate your job on the welds?

I've broken chainstays at the BB weld on two bikes (may have been a bad design) so if you need a test pilot give me shout.

P.S. Can we see pics of your Frame Table/Jig?

[mward]

Originally Posted by mintbiker

We have plenty of people who love mint bikes..nobody said you had to like us, but you can take your anger and hate elsewhere. We don't care. We wanted to build the lightest rideable steel 29er and I think we accomplished that goal. Sure we could have built it out of Ti or scandium and gotten lighter, but I want steel. If you don't then thats cool, but if you don't have anything nice/constructive to say then........

Mojito

The fact that lessgearsmorebeers works for you seems to be a sticking point. Or is this lessgearsmorebeers even a real person or are you and he one in the same? You said earlier that the frame was no lightweight, now you say you've built the lightest steel 29er. Which is it? You contradict yourself, you have your company officers posting as if they were regular joes... all smells like it came out of the south end of a northbound bull to me.

[lessgearsmorebeers]

Yes, I do know the people at Mint and yes I am quite pleased with the lugged frame I had built up. I do not work for them nor have I been paid, or solicited to write on this thread. A freind in the industry is restarting in the custom frame building business. As any builder will tell you innovation isn't always the easiest to come by. And even harder is doing what you love to do and making a livable wage at it. I asked for any ones input on that first thread to gain insite for them and come up with some innovative ideas.

Hey I even value your banter here, and the research you did to call me out. Do I think you are a tool? YES. But, then I highly doubt you like me either, but then again if I dwelled on everybodies opinion of me personally I probably would of hung myself years ago.
You know what I still pay for my parts and ride what I can afford. I go into my LBS and pony up when I need something. I have even been known to borrow a tool, and hang out in their shop and buy a six pack to repay them for saving my weekend by jury-rigging a part to just get me by.

I hope that someone out there has enjoyed this thread and is even contemplating buying a Mint frame. After all is said and done they still build bikes 29er or otherwise, they will be at the Small Builders show, and I'm sure they hope that people come by and see the frames including the S3 in question.

As for me I don't care what your opinion is but don't bash Mint because of my opinion.
I do not work for them, I do drink with them more regularly than my wife knows about.
as far as that fishy smell, cross your legs next time while surfing the net.
There was no conspiracy here just people looking to gain some knowledge and who better to ask than the riders, and builders out plying their trade.
Thank you for all who offered their opinions, no matter what they were it could be worse we could be in China where communications like these are forbidden.
I've said it before and I'll repeate it please don't take your distaste for me out on the manufacturers and builders whose threads I may post on. Other than them cashing my check I am merely an over opinionated angry little man, that cannot wait for his next beer.

[unotache]

Originally Posted by lessgearsmorebeers

Yes, I do know the people at Mint and yes I am quite pleased with the lugged frame I had built up. I do not work for them nor have I been paid, or solicited to write on this thread.

Originally Posted by lessgearsmorebeers

Wow, I'm excited this is my first thread and I am getting awesome responses thank you to everyone who is helping or reading and thinking more about this. I'll give the name in the near future it is not that I'm being secretive its that we are still securing the domain, and all the businesslogistocal stuff, I promise I'll get it to you as soon as I can. My builder is Chris Zanotti, of Zanotti Cycles, and most recently of Titus he was their Ti production manager and welder. That is why I'm so confident that our craftsmanship will be exemplary. For the lug question, Your newer ighter bikes Mitre or cut a tube at a certain angle that most closely resembles the finished project and then the intricate process of welding is applied. For a lugged frame this same process applies however there is a decorative as well as functional coupling at all or most of the joints between tubes the process of welding this is very delicate and a true art form to do correctly you have to manage the heating of the lug as well as the tube while using one heat source and draw the silver which is the application material into the small gap (usually hundreths on an inch) between the two without overheating and get it all the way to theend to join the tubes while there are newer lighter methods available. The finished product is arguably one of the most beautiful representations of the art of frame building. In addition I will be hand cutting the lugs and detailing the frames. We are currently working on a lugged 29er which for those of you in the know was previously impossibly due to wheel clearance at the chainstay seat tube joint. So we are excited about bringing our love of bikes and craftsmanship to some of the newer styles or reentry of old styles such as fixed gear and single speed biking. We won't be getting into Full Suspension any time soon there are a lot of great manufacturers out ther with wonderful design/engineering people such as Chris Cocalis at Titus an we wouldn't try to compete with those types of people we respect. Instead we want to bring back classic manufacturing and fit to make the experience of riding more enjoyable. The other end of that is we have built a True Temper S3 single speed and a road frame that are outright the fastest two bike of their style I have ever ridden and likewise the feedback I recieved from friends and acquaintences was ,WOW!
We have the first ten frames in production. So we are up and running and as soon as we go public with our information I will do my best to get any interested riders out there that contributed a beer when we meet. Thanks again and I hope to continue getting more feedback, and not just because I'll buy you abeer if we meet in the real world.

[unotache]

Originally Posted by lessgearsmorebeers

Wow , are those hand cut lugs? Can you get an image of that top looking down, and do you know if that was ever built up? Beautiful frame work.

Perhaps they hired sombody to replace you.

Originally Posted by lessgearsmorebeers

In addition I will be hand cutting the lugs and detailing the frames.

[VT Mike]

Originally Posted by unotache

That's funny. There was a thread on the Titus board a few months ago where lessgearsmorebeers was running his mouth and claimed to have no association with Titus.

Originally Posted by lessgearsmorebeers

And I don't know anyone or have any clout with Titus, however I am totally impressed with them thus far.

Later in the thread he was called out as a Titus employee.

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.ph...50244#poststop

[mintbiker]

Just picked up the S3 29er today!!! It is IMO quite pretty, I will save the pictures and descriptions for later when it is completed. Just wanted to say that we are one step closer to having the bike built and out for destructive testing....IE South Mountain here in Phoenix....If it can survive my 200lb a$$ falling down National Trail out here, then I am pretty certain that it will be ready for most everyone else to ride. Of course I will be taking it to do some more scientific non-destructive testing at an aerospace company I work with. The welds have already been x-rayed and we have done a penetrant inspection on the frame, and it passed aerospace standards....so lets see what happens on the trail.

Cheers!

Mojito

PS LGMB, and the rest of you folks who are firing shots at eachother are all welcome to work here at Mint.....we have a lot of cleaning that needs to be done, and we can teach you to miter tubes using a bridgeport to start...unless you have some industry experience???

[Daner]

Still waiting for pix...

[Mountain Man]

Originally Posted by robpennell

Ok. Sorry for being a hater. Like I said before I wish these guys all the best. I was under the impression this list was not intended for product ads for OEM's and I've tried to follow that rule. It seems the last couple of months things have changed. If I jumped on here talking about the new curved tubed 29er with a bent triple down tube or the 36er front triangle sitting in my jig with the intent of drumming up new business that would be spam imo.

Thanks, that cross bike turned out pretty nice. Check out the Mintcycles lugged SS bike linked above. Great looking bike.

Forget about the S3 debate for the moment, I as a welder/fabricater, have been thinking about building a custom bike for myself and your comment about the 36er front triangle your building really grabs my attention! Cloxxki and I have been in E-mail contact discussing various ways and parts to use to build such a bike. What can you tell me about your prototype? What kind of hubs/rims will you be using? I don't want to side track the post so feel free to email me the answer if you wish. Thanks

[robpennell]

Originally Posted by Mountain Man

Forget about the S3 debate for the moment, I as a welder/fabricater, have been thinking about building a custom bike for myself and your comment about the 36er front triangle your building really grabs my attention! Cloxxki and I have been in E-mail contact discussing various ways and parts to use to build such a bike. What can you tell me about your prototype? What kind of hubs/rims will you be using? I don't want to side track the post so feel free to email me the answer if you wish. Thanks

PM sent

[lessgearsmorebeers]

That was again good research I had every intention of continuing to work with Chris at Mint. However the ability to do so and continue to have a wife and house wasn't possible. I hand cut the lugs on my own frame and have done some finish work which amounts to stripping flux and sanding all of the welds and tubes, which in turn gets me a beer or two at lunch or after work. Also in those mastermind meetings over a pint we discussed the marketing and direction that Mint should go, to differentiate himself from the other builders out there. It was probably an overstatement when I used we in all of the statements as there is not much of me in any of the actual daily happenings with Mint and there is even less of me to the tune of none of me in th production process now. He has actually hired another welder to help keep up with his production. And while I can talk and drink as an employee I would probably drain all of their profit one way or another. I did receive pizza and beer in return for the labor of doing the rough cuts on som ehis lugs and as someone who had never worked in any form of manufacturing up until that it is truly amazing and rewrding to see the parts come together. If there was an opportunity to continue to be able to support my family and work with the gentlemen an Mint I would go in a heart beat. Until then I am about the furthest thing from an employee. I would like to ask that we drop the whole me and Mint debate, or me and Titus debate. The fact of the matter is I live in Arizona and both of these companies produce beautiful bikes of different application and process right here in Arizona. As a bike enthusiast I found myself visiting and taking a liking to each of them for their respective reasons. Does this mean I'm a double agent for two cycling companies bent on taking over the market, NO. I'm probably best described as an over zealous cycling enthusiast that appreciates the work and craftsmanship that is applied in a hand built frame of any sort. Being late in my career and obligated to my beloved family I probably resemble a fanatic that wishes he had been involved in the frame manufacturing side earlier and had a chance to have a career doing what I appreciate and admire about Mint cycles. I ask that this whole topic be dropped not because I am hiding or trying to manipulate a thread in any way but I think that it is taking away from the builder and what he has accomplished. I heard yesterday that it was completed and painted and being built up. Since the thread was meant for that purpose I'll humbly back down and apologize for taking the attention away from the S3 29er. I get upset because I like to read these threads and feel that alot of times what happens is exactly what I am now partially responsible for the whole topic gets on to a tangent, such as me. How am I associated, why are you using this as a marketing tool?
So that said I'm done here, I am still very much interested in the outcomes and would like to see your opinions of the posts and threads that may follow, I regret having stolen the focus from the topic and having felt compelled to defend Mint or any thing in the first place.
Good luck to all.

[wilhelmritter]

Originally Posted by mintbiker

I draw my bikes in Solidworks and a frame specific CAD program. But I have to build a frame around a specific fork, or genre of forks to dictate where my head tube will sit in space. Then I have to make it shorter than a comparable 26er because the fork height is massive for a 29er suspension fork, but I choose to make my head tube shorter as to keep the handle bars at a comfortable height. The rider compartment on the 29er is an exact copy of my 26er for saddle height, seat angle, TT length, and handlebar drop. That is why the S3 set in it's current configuration is difficult to make into a 29er. The down tube is shorter than what most people are using for a 29er frame....but there are always ways.....

Mojito

Hello all

This has been a really interesting thread to watch. It seems that beyond the strength question of am S3 tubeset for a 29er, there is a length question as well, i.e. Truetemper doesn't make a long enough downtube. This stinks, because I love my 20" Dos Niner and was thinking of going the custom route w/ S3. Just a guess here, but do you get the extra length with an oversized bottom bracket shell like the Megatech from FSA?

Can't wait to see the pics.

W. Ritter

[imridingmybike]

Originally Posted by wilhelmritter

Hello all

This has been a really interesting thread to watch. It seems that beyond the strength question of am S3 tubeset for a 29er, there is a length question as well, i.e. Truetemper doesn't make a long enough downtube. This stinks, because I love my 20" Dos Niner and was thinking of going the custom route w/ S3. Just a guess here, but do you get the extra length with an oversized bottom bracket shell like the Megatech from FSA?

Can't wait to see the pics.

W. Ritter

after all this talk of the feasability of using S3 for a 29'er - I had to look into it a little further.

This is what Bert at True Temper has to say about using S3 for MTB's and 29'ers.


"(IRMB)

Interesting, I have been asked this earlier this week by the owner of Slippery pig Bikes. He has a pic of his 29� s3 on the forum. (IRMB note: Where is this BTW?, couldn't locate)

I have a custom S3 mt. bike that is really sweet.

We don’t have weight limits for any of our tubes because the designer of the bike is responsible for using the appropriate tubes for his customer’s riding style, weight, terrain, etc.

What we do is guarantee the material properties, dimensions, and quality of our tubing so that your mathematical calculations on your designs are valid.

The S3 is extremely strong and hard, and is an appropriate material for use on Mtb for some riders. A lot depends on the quality of the frame build. From what I’ve seen, The US custom builders do a really good job. I represented True Temper at the inaugural US Handmade Bicycle show in Houston, and gave a presentation about tubing design and manufacture. This year we are sending two people to the show in San Jose.

Our longest S3 tube currently is the 660mm round down tube. The longest shaped tube (bi-oval down tube) is 650mm.

New tubes are being developed all the time. Send requests to me by e-mail. After enough people request a new type of tube, I’ll make it and put it in stock.

Thanks for writing,

Bert"

[Francis Buxton]

I saw pics go up and come down a day later....there was a hat over the bb area so we couldn't see the custom trick that has perplexed us all.

[imridingmybike]

Originally Posted by Francis Buxton

I saw pics go up and come down a day later....there was a hat over the bb area so we couldn't see the custom trick that has perplexed us all.

Who is the user? And is the issue the down tube length?

[wilhelmritter]

Originally Posted by Francis Buxton

I saw pics go up and come down a day later....there was a hat over the bb area so we couldn't see the custom trick that has perplexed us all.

O.K.

Now I am even more convinced they are using an oversized BB shell, perhaps Megatech, perhaps one of their own making, but it would be a way to shorten the length needed for the down tube.

But then again, I am not a frame builder.

I still can't wait to see the pics.

W. Ritter

[mintbiker]

Originally Posted by wilhelmritter

O.K.

Now I am even more convinced they are using an oversized BB shell, perhaps Megatech, perhaps one of their own making, but it would be a way to shorten the length needed for the down tube.

But then again, I am not a frame builder.

I still can't wait to see the pics.

W. Ritter

What do you mean? I still see the pictures posted? By the way...No O.S.BB shell....Go Fish.

Mojito

[Ligero]

Originally Posted by mintbiker

What do you mean? I still see the pictures posted? By the way...No O.S.BB shell....Go Fish.

Mojito

I posted that you were welding the down tube above the bb shell and I guessing that is right since you did not say anything about it. By looking at your picture that you posted with the hat over the bb the tubes do not appear to meet at the same place and the down tube is welded above the shell onto the seat tube.

Do I win a free frame for getting it right?

[imridingmybike]

Originally Posted by Ligero

I posted that you were welding the down tube above the bb shell and I guessing that is right since you did not say anything about it. By looking at your picture that you posted with the hat over the bb the tubes do not appear to meet at the same place and the down tube is welded above the shell onto the seat tube.

Do I win a free frame for getting it right?

Link the the pic in question??

[shiggy]

Originally Posted by imridingmybike

Link the the pic in question??

It is in this thread. The post by mintbiker is titled "OK 100% done except paint!!!!"

[Singlespeedpunk]

OK, just a mad idea from a bored guy

Alex

[Ligero]

Ok, here is my drawing.