24HOA Conyers, GA

[namrita]

So, I just saw a post on our local board that said the 24HOA at Conyers has changed the date to 10/8-9 instead of 10-15/16....no email notification whatsoever...and I'm on their distribution list for sure. Luckily for me, the date change isn't a huge deal. But, I am not sure I want to do this race anyway....the SOLO entry fee is $305 ...and may I ask why???

What do we, as solo riders, get for a $305 entry fee that we don't get at the less expensive 24 hour races? I've raced 24HOA as a team in the past, and I did my first 24 solo this past year and paid $200...which isn't cheap either...but at least they had better prizes!

Has anyone from TwentyFourSports read this? http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=113404

How do others feel?

[Darkwing Duck]

I just got a email from them.

Anybody have an idea why they have to change?

[jimbo]

Another post said sorry but no refunds. That's BS when people plan in advance to the point of preregistering and then are told there is a new date and there are no refunds. What about weddings or any of a host of other preplanned things for the other weekend.

24HOA is full of it. I wouldn't give them my money if I were you.

jimbo

[KERKOVEJ]

Is it just me, or is 24 HOA starting to top everyones "You Suck List"?
Seems that way to me. This might be my last year racing their events unless they change their views on the sport...price of fees...and venue locations that are only in California and the far east coast. What about everyone else not living in California or on the East Coast.
I see a firey ball falling thru the sky at a high rate of speed!

BOOM!

[HardTail610]

Originally Posted by jimbo

Another post said sorry but no refunds. That's BS when people plan in advance to the point of preregistering and then are told there is a new date and there are no refunds. What about weddings or any of a host of other preplanned things for the other weekend.

24HOA is full of it. I wouldn't give them my money if I were you.

jimbo

If you paid via credit card, you might be able to get it back.
Flip the card over, call the 800 number, and give them an earful...

But as Tom Waits says "The large print giveth and the small print taketh away."

That sucks. Good luck.

[k2biker]

I WAS planning to do Conyers solo this year but am having to check the date change. Yea, I was planning to suck up the cost and do the race but not b/c of Twenty Four Sports and their great race promotion -- I was ONLY planning to do it b/c it's in my back yard and I love riding / racing at Conyers.

I agree with the sentiment expressed about the 24HOA series. There are way too many other races out there that don't cost as much and you get much more in return. You would think that with the sponsors 24 HOA gets, costs should be lower an there'd be more return for ALL riders.

Here's my deal with 'em: we pay TOO much money to do the race AND we provide their labor! Are we all sick in our heads? I have done at least one enduro each month this year and have yet to do either of the above at any of them. And ya know what? I had more fun than I ever have at Conyers. That course kicks back no matter how many times you ride it and how well you know it.

I've been thinking actually of heading to Moab for the Granny Gear race. I've never ridden Moab and I figure if I'm gonna spend a butt load of cash on a race, it might as well be someplace really stinkin' cool!

Nam, what d'ya think? You, Eddie and I could head to Moab! On another note, are you doing SM100? I'm torn between that and a staying local and racing a sprint triathlon. ORAMM's sustained climbs kicked my butt and I'm not sure I'm ready for that sort of demoralizing race so soon after.

[namrita]

Originally Posted by k2biker

I WAS planning to do Conyers solo this year but am having to check the date change. Yea, I was planning to suck up the cost and do the race but not b/c of Twenty Four Sports and their great race promotion -- I was ONLY planning to do it b/c it's in my back yard and I love riding / racing at Conyers.

I agree with the sentiment expressed about the 24HOA series. There are way too many other races out there that don't cost as much and you get much more in return. You would think that with the sponsors 24 HOA gets, costs should be lower an there'd be more return for ALL riders.

Here's my deal with 'em: we pay TOO much money to do the race AND we provide their labor! Are we all sick in our heads? I have done at least one enduro each month this year and have yet to do either of the above at any of them. And ya know what? I had more fun than I ever have at Conyers. That course kicks back no matter how many times you ride it and how well you know it.

I've been thinking actually of heading to Moab for the Granny Gear race. I've never ridden Moab and I figure if I'm gonna spend a butt load of cash on a race, it might as well be someplace really stinkin' cool!

Nam, what d'ya think? You, Eddie and I could head to Moab! On another note, are you doing SM100? I'm torn between that and a staying local and racing a sprint triathlon. ORAMM's sustained climbs kicked my butt and I'm not sure I'm ready for that sort of demoralizing race so soon after.

Conyers is the best course, I agree. Especially for a 24hour. We need a new promoter to come in and run a 24 there! Anyone up to it?

Sorry, can't make it to Moab this year. Too much going on.....and yes, we're heading to SM100. You should too.

[erik99]

Here's my deal with 'em: we pay TOO much money to do the race AND we provide their labor!

I did Southern Lights 24/7 for the first time this year and was shocked there were no manditory work assignments. Not that it is a big stretch to find a volunteer while on a team, but how can this race do so much more on a smaller budget than the 24HOA people?

[k2biker]

Erik,
It's b/c Scott and Jimmy at SL24-7 are way cool! I've done that race since it's inception in 2003 and those guys never fail to exceed expectations. God willing, I will do that race until I die or cannot ride a bike anymore.

[twenty4 sports]

First let me say that it's truly unfortunate that the date has had to move to the 8/9. We unfortunately have a choice; move the event as we have done or cancel it. Riders have told us they prefer the move over cancellation.

With regards to the refund policy... NEVER have we said that a team or solo rider could not have a full refund... NEVER! For those of you out there posting faults statements you are damaging the sport... get you facts correct first.

As for the post regarding fees etc; I appreciate each individuals right to speak your mind. Please note that Granny Gears fees are substantially move than ours for example. Do your fact checking before posting. Speaking of Granny Gear... Larid Knight sued Trilife two years ago and the company was lost to bankruptcy. NOTE... he sued use for the rules for 24 hour racing... I ask the question who should control the rules? He sued us for the use of "24 Hours of _______" anything... that's right folks....

[namrita]

T4S,

Thanks for the reponse.

I did want to clarify, that, I am looking at this from the point of a solo rider. Teams have to pay, what, roughly $100 per person for their entry. Teams of 2 have to pay $205 per person. Then you have the solos that have to pay $305 per person. And, the solo riders are not even going to get to enjoy the other parts of the event. They will either be riding around in circles or sleeping. In my opinion, there is no justification to charge the solo riders that much more than the other competitors.

And, as far as Granny Gear goes...sure their fees might be more expensive...but each year there are more and more 24 hour events and other endurance events to choose from, and most of them are not as pricey.

I thought the other thread on "What Constitutes a good 24 hour race" was a really good one for Race Promoters to read. Some good suggestions on there.

Anyway, thanks again for the response.

[twenty4 sports]

Originally Posted by KERKOVEJ

Is it just me, or is 24 HOA starting to top everyones "You Suck List"?
Seems that way to me. This might be my last year racing their events unless they change their views on the sport...price of fees...and venue locations that are only in California and the far east coast. What about everyone else not living in California or on the East Coast.
I see a firey ball falling thru the sky at a high rate of speed!

BOOM!

Yes it’s been a difficult couple of years... with the complete loss of the company that started 24 Hours of Adrenalin December 3, 2003. Since that time, after Larid Knight's (Granny Gear) lawsuit a staff of 10 lost there jobs and we are currently down to a very small staff. We had to cancel all our development events because we could no longer finance losing efforts. Our level of customer service has dropped because of a reduced staff and we are working hard to ensure fun safe events continue. Jeff you ask why no events other than California or the East Coast... 24 Hours event are popping up all over North America and I for one think this is great for you the riders. I know that we have played a very important roll in developing 24-hour events across North America and the World... I'm proud of what we have been able to accomplish.

Jeff you have a very active voice in the 24-hour community and you can chose to use it in a positive or negative manor.

my commitment is too continue running positive events in the communities we are currently hosting events. It is my goal to provide event weekends welcoming all levels of riders and to work in a positive manor to assist in developing the sport as best we can.

I hope that you would wish us well,

Stuart

[twenty4 sports]

Originally Posted by jimbo

Another post said sorry but no refunds. That's BS when people plan in advance to the point of preregistering and then are told there is a new date and there are no refunds. What about weddings or any of a host of other preplanned things for the other weekend.

24HOA is full of it. I wouldn't give them my money if I were you.

jimbo

NEVER have we said that a team or solo rider could not have a full refund... NEVER! For those of you out there posting faults statements you are damaging the sport... get you facts correct first.

[wooglin]

Originally Posted by twenty4 sports

NEVER have we said that a team or solo rider could not have a full refund... NEVER! For those of you out there posting faults statements you are damaging the sport... get you facts correct first.

From what I can see you haven't said that refunds are available either. Which is it?

If refunds are available how does one go about it?

[hmosley]

Originally Posted by wooglin

From what I can see you haven't said that refunds are available either. Which is it?

If refunds are available how does one go about it?

I have just been givin the heads up that this thread is out ther. I am sorry to my fellow racers who lose out when stuart changes the date of events or cancels them without thinking of the athletes. It is funny I just emailed him the other day that he was hurting himself by doing this sort of Sh*t.

As far as his answer that it was change the date or cancel, that is bull...I think he has been having such a sucky year, he changed the date because he thought he would get more riders if it was on a opposite weekend as Moab..you are really going to try to tell us, that the GA event site, changes the date on you..come on, contracts were signed along time ago, and if it did happen to be the case, where were you looking out for your riders?

[Enduro Adventures]

You know, I started a 24 hour race last year . Wow what an eye opening experiance. I advertised and gave (even more than I advertised) all the things I thought were lacking. When I worked out a budget it cost way more than I dreamed to put on the race. Everyone wants a piece of you. You have to get around $100 bucks per person. Well this year I am doing even more than last year, down to a free party with live music for the racers after the race so they can enjoy it. I have free cabins, hot showers,darnd good entry packets. I give a hydration pack or simalar prize to racers at random when they come in. We have drawings, we have a lot of vendors, we have music. We have it all. You know If you want a quality race from someone who races themselves. Look around. Give them a chance. The Burn, Southern Lights. All good races from the little guy. Check out http://enduroadventures.com Give us a shot.

[hmosley]

oh by the way..you do not see granny gear mentioned in a negative way inhere, by anyone execpt, twenty 4 sports.

Oh, and also for the record, I was told I could not have a refund for my 400 entry fee into worlds..the only reason I requested a refund, or entry into another 24 event, was do to the fact I am ill with mono, and will not be recovered in time to compete. I have raced at worlds 2 previous times..along with other 24 hour events of theirs, paid them thousands of bills....for him to reply to my email that people like me ruin the sport..funny I thought we were keeping him in business..

[KERKOVEJ]

Stuart,

I have no problems with your events. They are first class. They are a good time. They do bring out the best in personal performace. I would never talk-down a race or race promoter unless I have a good reason. I am looking forward to World's in Whistler this year, and so are many many others. In fact I have participated in 3 of your events...24 Hours of Winter Park, '02 Worlds, '04 World's, and soon to be '05 World's. In all honesty, I would have never attended these events if it were not for sponsors footing 99.999% of the entry fee. I personally feel that your fees for solo racers is high. When I look at events around the country, they range from $35 to $150 to race at other 24 hour events. Granted you have a moving road show to haul around so I see where you need to charge more.

If I could request a few things to make your events better in my book...
1. Make the race dates. Keep the race dates.
2. Hold your events around the country...West coast, east coast, SE, Midwest, Etc. There is so much potential out there for a new crowd to draw in.
3. Lower the fees...please
4. Low key is good. We don't need a circus. I will gladly pay less it helps.

I took on the challenge of puting on my own race this year. Yes, it was not near the status of the 24HOA, but I have a good idea of what you are/will go through. Can I have my entry back? Can we move the date? Why this? Why that? Etc. Etc. Etc. I got all kinds of e-mails. I do feel your pain.

Please, I beg you please, think hard and long about what you are/will do in the future. The sport at a higher level does depend on you...me...Granny Gear...racers...and all the little unknown events around the world.

Jeff

[Enduro Adventures]

Venue fees (stiff) porta johns, insurance, advertising (flyers,magazine ads; people need to know the date etc. even stiffer) at least a t-shirt, course marking materials, emt, trail work, web-site, entry forms, bib numbers, medals, trophys or what ever . I know I have left stuff out but this is the minimum. A cross country race is around $25 and if you do a series you will most likely stay in a motel for some, and if you are lucky and place, you might even get a pair of socks and then get to drive home. Yes the Horse Park can do what ever they want to do. A promoter is at the mercy of the venue. Without the course what do you have? Nothing.

[chicoracing]

I am only a local promoter of 24 hour events in Ontario, Canada. Event promotion is a tough business, and I've been doing this for 10 years at a local level.

I will not go into any details about my "battles" with Trilife/Twenty4 Sports, but Stuart always seems to bring up the Granny Gear lawsuit and is still playing the blame game 1.5 years later.

Stuart, you were a great marketer, but made many enemies along the way. I will say you've had a positive impact on the sport, ran some terrific events, and took 24 hour events across North America....great! Laird introduced 24 hour mtb racing and will always be the father of the sport, (I've never been to his events, but I call him from time to time....a nice guy). Start producing better events, and listening to your competitors, or do something else....period. The blame game will get you nowhere, and you've played that tune too long!

[twenty4 sports]

Originally Posted by chicoracing

(you) always seems to bring up the Granny Gear lawsuit and is still playing the blame game 1.5 years later.

Stuart, you were a great marketer, but made many enemies along the way. I will say you've had a positive impact on the sport, ran some terrific events, and took 24 hour events across North America....great! Laird introduced 24 hour mtb racing and will always be the father of the sport, (I've never been to his events, but I call him from time to time....a nice guy), you brought a different atmosphere to your events that was positive for the newbie. Start producing better events, and listening to your competitors, or do something else....period. The blame game will get you nowhere, and you've played that tune too long!

Never have I never stated that I started 24 hour racing... larid did. Producing great events is what we have been doing for years and yes these days we are challenged due to the lawsuit from Granny Gear against Trilife... the point is that he wants to own the rules and regulations to 24 hour mountain biking and if he would have won, precedence would have been set and everyone would need to pay the piper. The shear fact that you and larid spoke during the lawsuit speaks volumes. Continue putting on great events, and enjoy kicking a man when he is down.

[Darkwing Duck]

I just like to race my bike.

I know how hard it is to put on a "NORBA" type event, I can only imagine how difficult it must be to put on a 24 hour event especially coming all the way from the Great White North.

I appreciate the efforts you all make to give us a fun event.


Personally, I will be at Pisgah and Conyers plus I did Big Bear earlier in the year.

Maybe I can come back in late Oct and give a review of all three .


Thanks again to all you promoters for putting the races on.

[chicoracing]

Originally Posted by twenty4 sports

First let me say that it's truly unfortunate that the date has had to move to the 8/9. We unfortunately have a choice; move the event as we have done or cancel it. Riders have told us they prefer the move over cancellation.

With regards to the refund policy... NEVER have we said that a team or solo rider could not have a full refund... NEVER! For those of you out there posting faults statements you are damaging the sport... get you facts correct first.

As for the post regarding fees etc; I appreciate each individuals right to speak your mind. Please note that Granny Gears fees are substantially move than ours for example. Do your fact checking before posting. Speaking of Granny Gear... Larid Knight sued Trilife two years ago and the company was lost to bankruptcy. NOTE... he sued use for the rules for 24 hour racing... I ask the question who should control the rules? He sued us for the use of "24 Hours of _______" anything... that's right folks....

To Stuart,

You scheduled an event for Hardwood last year, and changed venues a month and a half before without offering refunds. I registered a number of teams for my competing event who were really mad you wouldn't give them refunds as they didn't like your new venue - some walked away from deposits, some from full entries.

What is your refund policy for a change of date? Similar to a change of venue?

As for my use of "24 Hours of _______" - you are such a hypocrite. You tried bullying me with the same crap once.

Whenever anyone questions your pricing, or events, you tell them they are hurting the sport. This is absolutely ridiculous as you are a for profit company and are accountable to your customers.

Last year you published mistruths about my company and that didn't sit well with me at the time. From my angle the only one to blame for your business problems is you.

Adam

P.S. It wasn't all legal fees you took care of with your bankruptcy was it Stuart?

[hmosley]

For those of you who would like to believe Stuart when he says that he has never said no about refunds,I would like to bring to light an email which was sent between Stuart and I,

I have been seeking any type of refund for Worlds this year, due to the fact that I have fell ill with mono. I even suggested to just transfer my registreation to another event once I feel better. This was 2 weeks ago with the initial email.

Someone brought this forum to my attnetion last night. I did some posting and then emailed Stuart, that I had read that he said that they have never said they will not refund, and I thought that was cool, because he originally told me NO REFUND> so I said I would look forward to hearing from him concerning my refund.

I then sat down to go to bed and actually started to feel bad for him, I did post some hurtful stuff.

Then I went to my email to see if he had wrote back..keep in mind, I am a rider, who tarvels all over the country, and pay for everything myself..I do not have health insurance, and now I have big doctors bills.I need every penny I can find.

So I check my email..and he did write back..his professional response, qoute..

"Stop bothering me"

very nice. As a bussiness man, he should remember, this is not a game. His disregard to me as a customer, does not sit well.

[Fred01]

I heard through the grape vine that the reason the staff is no longer with the 24 hrs of adrenaline is not because they were all "Let go" it is because they all quit. Couldnt put up with Stuart. All the staff last year and all the staff this year walk out.
Hummm I wonder why?????

[noclevername]

What bothers me most about twenty4sports is they changed the date without regard to any of the local organizations. SORBA, who has always supported and helped twenty4sports, stands to lose a lot of money due to the date change. The Tumbling Creek race which is a huge fund raiser for SORBA is on Oct 8-9. The Tumbling Creek race date was not set until AFTER twenty4sports published their dates. I am really not happy with twenty4sports at all for this date change.

[k2biker]

One thing I'm not seeing mentioned here about the Granny Gear races: I just noticed last week that they have a deal with the American Lung Association that if you raise $400 for ALA, you race for free.

Therefore, Granny Gear is giving us -- the riders -- a way to participate for free AND they are giving something back. For this, I give Laird props. That's why I make the statement that for all practicle purposes, I can fly from Atlanta to Moab and do the race there cheaper than I can race 20 minutes from home. Again, I'm with Namrita in that I'm looking at this as a solo competitor. Can I come up with $400? You bet - my sponsors would love to pitch in on that one!

[k2biker]

I sent Stuart a note the other day stating that I'd volunteer my time to help with set up and during the race at Conyers instead of paying to race -- two days later, no response. Given I've heard that they're a bit short handed, I thought he would have jumped on my offer. I'll gladly help out b/c I have many friends who are racing so I'd actually be helping them out too! If he doesn't want my help, I'll go cook for someone and drink some Terrapin Beer all weekend!

hmmm, Stuart stiffed Heather....this ain't good! Um, if you haven't seen her results, you should check 'em out. It would have been pretty sweet to have her around these parts.

Hope you get to feeling better, Heather! BTW, I loved the time I spent in the Upstate region. There's nothing better than hiking Gothics, Armstrong and Lower (maybe it was Upper?) Wolfjaw in February -- except maybe hiitin' Mt Marcy!

Happy trails. I gotta get back to work.

[jimbo]

Originally Posted by twenty4 sports

NEVER have we said that a team or solo rider could not have a full refund... NEVER! For those of you out there posting faults statements you are damaging the sport... get you facts correct first.

Now you're calling me a liar. I am only quoting this person from the Sorba Forum:

Finally, a note for those considering bailing on 24HOA. I was told via reply to my email, "They can't do refunds"!

Obviously this person was lying. He never really emailed you and you never really emailed him back.

Thanks, I was actually considering helping out some friends who needed a fifth (I figured they had already paid and thus 24HOA already had the money), but with this crap, fuggitaboudit.

jimbo

[noclevername]

Originally Posted by jimbo

Now you're calling me a liar. I am only quoting this person from the Sorba Forum:



Obviously this person was lying. He never really emailed you and you never really emailed him back.

Thanks, I was actually considering helping out some friends who needed a fifth (I figured they had already paid and thus 24HOA already had the money), but with this crap, fuggitaboudit.

jimbo

I know Jimbo's post was dripping with sarcasm but just so everyone will know, the guy who posted that on the SORBA forum is someone who is really involved, well known, respected, knows what's up and is in contact with the race coordinators of many different organizations.

[namrita]

Originally Posted by jimbo

Now you're calling me a liar. I am only quoting this person from the Sorba Forum:



Obviously this person was lying. He never really emailed you and you never really emailed him back.

Thanks, I was actually considering helping out some friends who needed a fifth (I figured they had already paid and thus 24HOA already had the money), but with this crap, fuggitaboudit.

jimbo

I guess the only way *we* are going to win here is if we go elsewhere. 24 hours of Pisgah this year, and several others next year..

Thanks, I've learned a lot by reading this thread.

[MTBXC]

I'll never do another race held by 24S as last year I felt the blame game rant before the race and the fee hike constantly going up since my first 24 race in 1999 was too much. I will instead ride the smaller less expensive races and enjoy them knowing I didn't break my wallet and still get to compete against top class folks.

Same with our local series. It has turned to crap! I'm now starting to do adventure races and 12/24 hour events as the regular MTB XC here in GA blows!

[kretzel]

Originally Posted by k2biker

I sent Stuart a note the other day stating that I'd volunteer my time to help with set up and during the race at Conyers instead of paying to race -- two days later, no response. Given I've heard that they're a bit short handed, I thought he would have jumped on my offer. I'll gladly help out b/c I have many friends who are racing so I'd actually be helping them out too! If he doesn't want my help, I'll go cook for someone and drink some Terrapin Beer all weekend!
.

just a quick fyi, Stuart is in Whistler right now setting up for Worlds, I'd expect a delay in email comms with him.

Cheers,

[teamdicky]

Do a Granny Gear solo and enjoy a 50% payback for the podium.
Do an Adrenalin event and get a plaque or a Hydrapak. Be told the money goes to the World championships. Notice how much easier it gets to qualify for the World's every year in order to draw more participants.
Realize I can just do other events for closer to $100(like the Burn 24 hour race) and, as a solo rider, still not enjoy anything other than riding for 24 hours. I only benefit from post race meals and prizes. Midnight corn-roasts and fireworks do nothing for me.

Promoters can do what they want. It's their race afterall. If people don't like it they will stop coming. Look at Snowshoe with attendance dropping @ 50% over 3-4 years. It is easy to consider an event prestigious when they spend a lot of money on advertising, but some of us just want a good time with good friends. I just spent over $2000 on the Trans Rockies, but I had an original experience. How many 24 hour races are offering something new for the money after all these years??

**Never been a promoter, never will be. Just the views of a former(and still sometimes) competitor.

[the pup]

Originally Posted by k2biker

One thing I'm not seeing mentioned here about the Granny Gear races: I just noticed last week that they have a deal with the American Lung Association that if you raise $400 for ALA, you race for free.

Therefore, Granny Gear is giving us -- the riders -- a way to participate for free AND they are giving something back. For this, I give Laird props. That's why I make the statement that for all practicle purposes, I can fly from Atlanta to Moab and do the race there cheaper than I can race 20 minutes from home. Again, I'm with Namrita in that I'm looking at this as a solo competitor. Can I come up with $400? You bet - my sponsors would love to pitch in on that one!

It's actually $800 for solo racers, $400 per member on a team. I raised $1000 last year for Temecula and I'm planning on doing the same for Moab. I think it's a great thing that GG does for the American Lung Association, I hope it continues for a long, long time...
pup

[mp3]

I won't be able to make to the WSC this year. I emailed Stuart yesterday about it before reading Heathers blog and her situation. As I was drinking my coffee this morning settling into work I found this post. Now I wouldn't normally consider posting an email exchange in a public forum but in this case I though it might actually be helpful.

The following is the full email exchange between Stuart and I. Besides the expensive solo entry fees, I am bothered that I have to wait until November to find out about my situation. And perhaps with this post I can kiss my entry fee good bye.

-------------------

Mario,

I understand and we will look at it after the season is completed. The policy states no refunds, but as I mentioned we will look at this in November. Sorry but thats the best we can do right now.

Stuart

On Aug 17, 2005, at 5:52 PM, orange oppa wrote:

Stuart

Perhaps there was a misunderstanding. I don't want a refund I just want to apply the entry fee to either next year's WSC or to a different Adrenalin event. Or if those two aren't viable options is it possible to say apply it to a friends entry fee that isn't paid in full yet (assuming of course that it's not paid in full yet...I haven't checked yet)?

Mario

Hi Mario,

sorry to hear you are unable to make it this year. Currently our refund policy (that each athlete accepts during the registration process) states that there are no solo refunds. At the end of the season (November) we will look at each scenario, but can't promise anything other than our policy at this time.

again sorry that we will not see you this year and please follow up in November with us.

sincerely,

Stuart

On Aug 17, 2005, at 1:04 PM, orange oppa wrote:
Hi

I sent an email some time ago asking if I could transfer my entry fee from this year to next year's WSC or to a different Adrenalin event. Due to family circumstances, I will not be able to particpate in the WSC this year.

Mario

[hmosley]

sorry to hear that everyone is having bad news with adrenalin. I do feel in my gut that we will not see are refunds ever.

[KERKOVEJ]

[gmanatlanta]

I had to chime in,
I have participated in 3 24hoa's.
I have had great fun and loads of success with Aaron, Kevin and most of the pervious 24hoa staff, however, the owner is a rude and argumentative individual with no concept of customer service or really how to speak to people .

I have never had a race director speak to me, or at me, like Stuart has.

The only reason I continue to do 24hoa is due to the fact that I see so many of my friends and cycling compadre's at these events, the fun and camaraderie is exceptional.

Maybe Stuart could take lessons in etiquette from the Southern Lights gang, or better yet, let's get everyone in Metro Atlanta out to Southern Lights next year.

Gary

[rey]

Originally Posted by gmanatlanta

I

Maybe Stuart could take lessons in etiquette from the Southern Lights gang, or better yet, let�s get everyone in Metro Atlanta out to Southern Lights next year.

I second the kudos for 24-7. what a great bunch of folks! I appreciated the fact that the organisers came through after dark and asked if I needed anything.
despite the rain I had a great time!

one of my favorite moments from the race: a volunteer at the first water station at 3 a.m. or so, in a pouring rain, singing (and doing a credible job) "you've lost that lovin' feeling" -- kept me chuckling all the way through to mile 5, where my brakes ceased to work. but no matter, crashing in the mud was goooey and soft

having read all the above, looks like I'm opting out of conyers and shooting for 24 HOP instead. I wont be participating in the N.U.M.B.A though, unless my rash clears up by then

[Lotus]

24 sports - sorry to buck the trend on here but I will be there ready to race. Dates sometime have to change and yes it is expensive to enter. However, my time is worth money and a few hundred bucks for me to have fun all weekend long is well worth it. Come on people, it is a bike race. Let some positive energy flow and if you have to opt out due to other obligations maybe you could look for someone who wants to race and have them take your place and pay you back. Life is too short to worry about stuff like this. Hope to see everyone out there.

[endracer]

Originally Posted by hmosley

sorry to hear that everyone is having bad news with adrenalin. I do feel in my gut that we will not see are refunds ever.

I am having similiar issues with Stuart and 24HOA. I am registered for the 24 hours of HC in September. Unfortunately, I have become injured and will not be able to attend. I emailed Stuart and requested a transfer to another event. He responded, a week later I might add, indicating that there are no refunds per policy, but may consider a transfer after the end of the season in November.

I asked for a copy of this policy that is apparently not posted on the website and I still have not received a response, which was over two weeks ago. This is just ridiculous. This operation has just gone down the tubes. Not only is this one of the most expensive events out there, they also require volunteers to staff the events? Whats up with that?

I would really be suprised if I do another one of their events. There are so many other events that are cheaper and much better run. I don't need to support a promoter with this type of attitude.

[2 wrongs]

funny - i see who is viewing this thread right now - hi guys!

it looks like November is some sort of specail date promise from 24 sports - based on other promises they have not followed through on, i suggest you call your credit card company and challenge the charge on your card

[namrita]

Well, with all the money they collect with that $10/per person "web usage" fee when you register, they should have plenty left over to refund those affected by their date change at least. Geez.

[Enduro Adventures]

Whats next? Wal-Mart charging for parking.

[kretzel]

Hi everyone.

As a former promoter I can't help but chime in on all the "no refund" complaints. I've raced for 17 years and have yet to enter a race that offers a refund if you get sick, injured, the dog eats your homework, etc.. Some allow transfers to other events, some don't, it is often a grey area, and seems to be so with 24 HoA. It does not appear to me like Adrenalin is out of line with what other promoters offer, regardless of what the outcome is in November.

Once a promoter hands out a single refund they get bombarded by dozens more requests for refunds. It is a good way to go clinically insane. Don't believe it? Put on a race & try it yourself. Barring massive screw up by the promoter, the only sensible refund policy is no refunds at all.

If a promoter changes the date that is different, but so far I haven't seen anyone who got bumped from Conyers complain that they could not get a refund. Anyone here in that boat? Did I miss someone?

Just my $0.02 from a past life on the other side of the aisle.

Cheers,

[Lotus]

Originally Posted by kretzel

It does not appear to me like Adrenalin is out of line with what other promoters offer, regardless of what the outcome is Just my $0.02 from a past life on the other side of the aisle.

Cheers,

Agreed! And like I was saying. Donate your spot to someone who can't afford it if you can't make it due to the date change. Same goes for the person with Mono. Or, follow the Nike moto - Just shut up and race.

[namrita]

Originally Posted by Lotus

Agreed! And like I was saying. Donate your spot to someone who can't afford it if you can't make it due to the date change. Same goes for the person with Mono. Or, follow the Nike moto - Just shut up and race.

I would LOVE to race..but the only problem is that I can't afford it. So, Mr. Lotus, if you have $320 to sponsor me...I will race Solo Female. Or, if there is anyone out there that can't use their entry due to the date change, I'll gladly take the donation, and will "shut up and race". Thanks.

[rey]

Originally Posted by Lotus

Agreed! And like I was saying. Donate your spot to someone who can't afford it if you can't make it due to the date change. Same goes for the person with Mono. Or, follow the Nike moto - Just shut up and race.

We are seeing good old fashioned market forces at work. Which, by the way, include free sharing of opinions/reviews of products/events, and a percentage of people taking their racing dollars elsewhere after their assessment of available info. In this regard, seems to me like the solo racers are a more sensitive barometer of "product" than the teams.

No doubt fun will be had by all participants, solo or team. after all, mtbr's arent exactly a bunch of shoe gazers.

As far as the validity of peoples beefs with 24 sports, they would be poor businessmen/women to not come away with some useful info from this thread in how to improve their business..

so, pay and race this one or not, but please, folks, dont "shut up" about it. I found this thread very informative.

This is a forum, after all, and if everyone "shuts up" that don't make for a very lively forum, does it?

[mp3]

I don't have not problem with the refund thing. That's standard with most races I've done.
What I thought was silly and bothered me the most was not being able to transfer my entry fee to another Adrenalin event. I don't see what the problem is with that. Enlighten me. I could have raced Hurkey or Fountain hills solo but since I won't know till November I've already changed my race schedule. I don't ever plan on shutting up but I'll still race.

As far as donating or transferring my fee to another racer perhaps you didn't read my previous post. Didn't sound like that was an option. BUT... If namrita shoots off an email to Stuart about transferring my solo entry fee to her and he say's yes them I'm game with that. Someone might as well get some fun out of it. Disputing the charges through the credit card company is not an option for me because I paid back in April...more then 60 days have passed.

[mp3]

Stuart

Seeing as you keep tabs on the endurance racing forum and this thread, how about it?
What do you say to transferring my WSC solo entry fee to Namrita? It's fine with me and I don't think she has a problem with it.

Mario

[namrita]

Originally Posted by mp3

I don't have not problem with the refund thing. That's standard with most races I've done.
What I thought was silly and bothered me the most was not being able to transfer my entry fee to another Adrenalin event. I don't see what the problem is with that. Enlighten me. I could have raced Hurkey or Fountain hills solo but since I won't know till November I've already changed my race schedule. I don't ever plan on shutting up but I'll still race.

As far as donating or transferring my fee to another racer perhaps you didn't read my previous post. Didn't sound like that was an option. BUT... If namrita shoots off an email to Stuart about transferring my solo entry fee to her and he say's yes them I'm game with that. Someone might as well get some fun out of it. Disputing the charges through the credit card company is not an option for me because I paid back in April...more then 60 days have passed.

Hey Mario. I sent you an email. Let me know if you don't get it.

[Guitar Ted]

Hey, thought you all would like to know that Stuart Dorland has "suspended" Jeff Kerkove from any 24hrs of Adrenaline events for a year based on the comments he made in this thread! This means he cannot race at Worlds, an event he has been preparing for all year. I know Jeff will not respond to this action here, so I am taking the initiative to let you guys in on this preposterous action.

An action based on someone voicing their opinion is one thing, but when the "retailer" ( in this case, 24hrs. of Adrenaline) refuses services, based on said opinions being expressed, to the customer, ( in this case, Mr. Kerkove) you have a very flawed business model. That is going to cause repurcussions of a most negative type for 24hrs. of Adrenaline, I'm afraid. I am not an endurance racer, but I work in retail, and I understand that this is a really bad thing to have happen.

I know the details of this sad action, as I have read the e-mail that Jeff recieved today. I also am a co-worker of his, so this has all come to me first hand. This shall not go unnoticed!

[alizbee]

Jeff posted some details at his blog. http://jeffkerkove.blogspot.com

[Circlip]

Originally Posted by Guitar Ted

Hey, thought you all would like to know that Stuart Dorland has "suspended" Jeff Kerkove from any 24hrs of Adrenaline events for a year based on the comments he made in this thread! This means he cannot race at Worlds, an event he has been preparing for all year.

WIthout commenting on the merits of the situation, that is extremely disappointing. I'm sorry for you Jeff in the sense of it having been something you had worked and planned toward. Hopefully the resulting financial damages are minimal in terms of travel arrangements already booked, etc.

While I can certainly appreciate the concept of a business owner having the right to refuse to engage in transactions with parties if they choose, I try not to think of mountain biking and 24hr events as a business. Instead I consider it just another flavour of mountain biking fun that just happens to have a business framework surrounding it. In reality I guess that's an idealized concept that doesn't really exist. Sad situation for everyone involved.

[Enduro Adventures]

Last year was the first 24 Hours of Pisgah, and here is what happened. On Thursday night/Friday morning before the race Hurricane Ivan came thru and devestated Western North Carolina (we were not alone by any means) 3 cabins at the venue were flattened and if anyone had been in them they would be dead. There was no power and no water, due to the emergency one could not rent a generator. One of the main roads (a 4 lane) to the venue was blocked by several mud slides. Places that had never been flooded in recorded history was under 5-6 feet of water. Several of us got on our cell phones (thank god they still worked) and called everyone who was traveling to the race to stop them. We actually reached all but one who then got on our forum and blasted me with every thing he had. Well I reschedualed for 2 weeks later. About a third of the teams could not make the new date. Some of those asked for refunds even though in big writing on the instruction page of the registration forms was NO REFUNDS. Well here is how I felt. I would be bankrupt if I refunded everyone, I wasn't comfortable taking peoples money with out giving them something in return, I had offerd an alternative date. What would you do? I said no refunds, but you can race next year on last years entry. Thanks to the folks who didn't ask for a refund

[MJLEBS6]

I have been reading these various posts and wonder to myself what the H--L is this Stuart guy thinking. How can you ban one of the better endurance racers form entering one of your events. Jeff Kerkove has an active voice ( as we have seen it made an example of) in the 24 hour cycling community. He takes time to post meaningful blogs for his fans and foes alike. They are all able to read what his life as an endurance athlete is all about. Has anything happened to anyone else on that list? Jeff has obviously been targeted because he has such an influential voice in the 24 hour community. If there had been an "across the board" ban for all racers posting on this blog, I might say ok, but to target one person is ludicrous. The local events will continue to flourish with a-holes like this running events. Mr. Stuart, approx how much do you stand to make from this event. It would appear from an outsiders view that you are trying to get rich off the series and not just make a little profit to make the event better the following year. Good luck with your series Stuart, after this little fiasco, things may start going downhill faster for you.

[Enduro Adventures]

Last year was the first 24 Hours of Pisgah, and here is what happened. On Thursday night/Friday morning before the race Hurricane Ivan came thru and devestated Western North Carolina (we were not alone by any means) 3 cabins at the venue were flattened and if anyone had been in them they would be dead. There was no power and no water, due to the emergency one could not rent a generator. One of the main roads (a 4 lane) to the venue was blocked by several mud slides. Places that had never been flooded in recorded history was under 5-6 feet of water. Several of us got on our cell phones (thank god they still worked) and called everyone who was traveling to the race to stop them. We actually reached all but one who then got on our forum and blasted me with every thing he had. Well I reschedualed for 2 weeks later. About a third of the teams could not make the new date. Some of those asked for refunds even though in big writing on the instruction page of the registration forms was NO REFUNDS. Well here is how I felt. I would be bankrupt if I refunded everyone, I wasn't comfortable taking peoples money with out giving them something in return, I had offerd an alternative date. What would you do? I said no refunds, but you can race next year on last years entry. Thanks to the folks who didn't ask for a refund

[PaddyH]

After reading these posts, I for one will no longer be participating in 24hrs of Adr. races. All hail the little guy who puts 24hr races on for the love of the sport. I would presume Trans Iowa 2006 won't be a "World Solo Qualifier." Sorry Jeff and those banned or not refunded their entries due to health/cancellation circumstances, I know how much these races mean to us all.

[KonaEnduroJC]

Yeah I gotta say this is really bogus. I would have gone to worlds too but could not afford it.
But now with the way Stuart is acting I WILL NEVER be supporting his events. But if you already are paying him let me know and I will take your spot.
-Jordan
GFMtBkRcr@hotmail.com

[DaFireMedic]

Originally Posted by Enduro Adventures

Last year was the first 24 Hours of Pisgah, and here is what happened. On Thursday night/Friday morning before the race Hurricane Ivan came thru and devestated Western North Carolina (we were not alone by any means) 3 cabins at the venue were flattened and if anyone had been in them they would be dead. There was no power and no water, due to the emergency one could not rent a generator. One of the main roads (a 4 lane) to the venue was blocked by several mud slides. Places that had never been flooded in recorded history was under 5-6 feet of water. Several of us got on our cell phones (thank god they still worked) and called everyone who was traveling to the race to stop them. We actually reached all but one who then got on our forum and blasted me with every thing he had. Well I reschedualed for 2 weeks later. About a third of the teams could not make the new date. Some of those asked for refunds even though in big writing on the instruction page of the registration forms was NO REFUNDS. Well here is how I felt. I would be bankrupt if I refunded everyone, I wasn't comfortable taking peoples money with out giving them something in return, I had offerd an alternative date. What would you do? I said no refunds, but you can race next year on last years entry. Thanks to the folks who didn't ask for a refund

You clearly did the right thing, based on the circumstances. There isn't a whole lot more that you could do. A hurricane cannot be helped, and you are doing what you can. Sounds like the right thing to me.

[DaFireMedic]

Originally Posted by Guitar Ted

Hey, thought you all would like to know that Stuart Dorland has "suspended" Jeff Kerkove from any 24hrs of Adrenaline events for a year based on the comments he made in this thread! T

Amazing. I guess Stuart somehow does not think that he is "hurting the sport" by doing this, but he could not be more wrong. Fortunately, the sport is bigger than him. My guess is that this is going to reverberate through the 24 hr race community, and Stuart is going to find himself regretting this foolish action.

[Finch Platte]

...that with every reference to Laird, he spells it "larid"?

Weird, imo.

fp

[mp3]

24 Hours of Adrenalin has made a mistake by barring Jeff from participating in their events for one year. 24 hour racing is no longer the nascent community it once was. 24 Hours of Adrenalin is not “THE” community any longer. There are numerous other 24-hour venues across the country that provide outlets to have fun and compete at a reasonable cost. And I’m sure that a good number of event promoters are in it because of passion and not primarily for profit like Adrenalin. Perhaps 24 HOA has forgotten that it exists only because of the racers. The weekend warriors, like myself, make up the bulk of Adrenalin’s profit and the elite racers make the Whistler event the “world” championship. Take away the elite racers and there is no championship. Take away the profit base by continuing to charge high prices and providing poor services then you have no more mediocre events. Perhaps it’s time for the 24-hour community to throw their weight behind regional events and alternative championship events/series. Perhaps a boycott of 24HOA events will drive the point home…it’s the racers who say (with their entry fees) what is and what is not.

[@dam]

Wow. Could Stuart have *gasp* hurt the sport!? I think maybe he did.

Also, to Enduro Adventures- I don't think people were concerned that he doesn't offer a refund, but that
1) he doesn't spell out his refund policy in advance, and
2) said, on page one of this thread "I never said no refunds". WTF?

I think people would've been fine with a transfer to another rider or a postponment to another race.

Yup...hurting the sport.

[pisgahproductions]

Originally Posted by Enduro Adventures

Last year was the first 24 Hours of Pisgah, and here is what happened. On Thursday night/Friday morning before the race Hurricane Ivan came thru and devestated Western North Carolina (we were not alone by any means) 3 cabins at the venue were flattened and if anyone had been in them they would be dead. There was no power and no water, due to the emergency one could not rent a generator. One of the main roads (a 4 lane) to the venue was blocked by several mud slides. Places that had never been flooded in recorded history was under 5-6 feet of water. Several of us got on our cell phones (thank god they still worked) and called everyone who was traveling to the race to stop them. We actually reached all but one who then got on our forum and blasted me with every thing he had. Well I reschedualed for 2 weeks later. About a third of the teams could not make the new date. Some of those asked for refunds even though in big writing on the instruction page of the registration forms was NO REFUNDS. Well here is how I felt. I would be bankrupt if I refunded everyone, I wasn't comfortable taking peoples money with out giving them something in return, I had offerd an alternative date. What would you do? I said no refunds, but you can race next year on last years entry. Thanks to the folks who didn't ask for a refund

YES! You did the right thing!
Ken,
The circumstances that led to you needing to rescedule the race can only be described as 'an act of god'. Maybe I missed it but has Stuart ever come out and said exactly why he moved the date of conyers? Is he forcasting a hurricane? It's unfortunate that you weren't able to get ahold of that one team to tell them the race date was moved but, I don't know, if I showed up that weekend, it would have been immediately clear that to try to race was not a good idea. Death! Distruction! Chaos! No Water! No Power! Landslides! Landslides! Landslides! A year later they are still repairing landslides.
Eric

p.s. I don't have your snailmail address, I dropped a few Double Dare entry forms off with Vicky. Hope to see you and JT there!

[hmosley]

I am the girl with Mono. I think I really started this whole thing with Stuart. My beef originally, was that his refund policy, clearly states that if a solo racer notifies him 30 days prior to the race that you would be refunded 1/2 of your entry. I was told no refunds.

Due to the circumstances that have taken place since, I have dediced that the community of racers should be able to do something. There are many of you out their, that will not see refunds, due to date changes, illness, or because Stuart has decided to ban you from his races.

I originally requested a transfer into another event, or to another person and was told no as well.

This past Friday, I made a trip over to my Lawyer. My husband and I took all the emails we had revieved from Stuart, a copy of his refund policy, and related expenses material.
Our Lawyer, advised us that we do have a valid case, since his refund policy is so clearly stated, and since he is operating under a business, he is responsible to uphold certain regulations.

Our lawyer also advised us, that our case would be even more substantial, and devestating to him if we had other racers involved with similair circumstances. If you would like more information please contact me.

I will hope to see that we all follow through with are gut feelings on this issue, and do not let things just go. Someone needs to be held responsible.

[richardmasoner]

Originally Posted by Enduro Adventures

Some of those asked for refunds even though in big writing on the instruction page of the registration forms was NO REFUNDS. Well here is how I felt. I would be bankrupt if I refunded everyone

Google for "risk management." You take out event insurance for this kind of thing, you don't go bankrupt, and your participants go away happy.

RFM

[sperky]

I used to do 24 HOA races...in fact I've probably done more than 10 of their races (including the World Solo Championships) and I find this so disappointing. I don't race 24 HOA races any more because they don't do any in Ontario...which is where they started the whole thing! Each year they lose their best venues (this year it was Canmore which used to be their only sellout, year before was Hardwood Hills) and it seems this trend will continue. In fact I just recently rec'd an email asking if I wanted to do the race (via Grandfather clause) in Whistler which indicates, in my opinion, their numbers are down and they are getting desperate. I always enjoyed their races and it was my perogative to pay the entry so why people complain about the fee is ridiculous....there are so many other races to do for so much less....just hit up one of those instead. The problem with 24 HOA is the attitude given on these forums....they are rude, inconsistent and a complete turnoff. To title the response to Jeff Kerkove as "Dear Jeffy" just reminds me of kids calling each other names in elementary school. Kudos to Jeff for trying to clarify his point in a response instead of being upset about the rudeness of Stuart.

Now the next question is how Stuart will handle Jeff's refund, particular since that is what started this whole thread in the first place.

[mward]

Originally Posted by twenty4 sports

As for the post regarding fees etc; I appreciate each individuals right to speak your mind.

Hahahha NOT!

24HOA sucks, I'm letting every mtber I know, especially endurance racers, know about this. Don't support these *******s.

[Yeti_Rider]

I've raced 7 24HOA events, one Granny Gear, and one Epic Rides event in the Southern CA and southwest area.

having competed in 24 hour events from three different promoter at least gave me some perspective.

all three put on a great event. But..........only 24HOA REQUIRES a volunteer. not only do you get the pleasure of forking out a lot of money in addition to whatever additional fees the venue requires you to pay, but you have to have somebody to provide FREE labor to the company profiting from the event!

the problem with this is that when you travel to participate in an event, sometimes for a great distance, you can't always bring a wife/husband/boyfriend/girlfriend/life partner/significant other/ect. to act as this free labor. Even if you are able to bring your family, if you have kids preventing that person from leaving camp then you're still screwed. it's hard enough to get 3 or 4 friends to travel adn commit to participating in a race but to then have to find a person who's only purpose is to provide labor or face a DQ then that's just wrong. if teams paid more by not providing a volunteer then that's great but if I can't bring a volunteer and I can't get a refund but I'll get a DQ without a volunteer WTF am I supposed to do? Just not register and compete at an event that won't DQ my team!

GG does not require a volunteer. Epic Rides does not require a volunteer. both put on events close to my home. if I only pick one event to participate in, which one may it be?

Secondly, 24HOA timing and scorekeeping sucks! GG had RFID cards several years ago. Epic used computers to update lap times instantly. 24HOA, for all the expense that the racers paid, had scorekeeping that was usually 3 or 4 laps behind the current state of events!

Finally, since it's all really about the T-shirt anyway, GG provides a T-shirt custom to the venue so if you do two GG events, you get two different T-shirts. 24HOA uses the same T-shirt for the entire season so if you do two events, you get two identical T-shirts (if you didn't get DQ'd for not bringing a volunteer along in the first place!).

The fall Hurkey Creek 24HOA event is always good and on a good course. the spring event has coincided with the GG event (hmmmm, wonder why?). yet the spring HC event always lacks riders. could it be because we don't feel the need to pay to ride the same course twice in one year when there's another event just down the street.

I know that promoting races is a business and they need to make money. But, one can't ignore the customer when there are other options available. and who focking cars if Laird was trying to patent or copyright or whatever 24 hours of anything? it doesn't take a marketing genius to then just come up wtih the 23 hours and 59 minutes of adrenaline to get arouond the issue anyway!@#$@#!!

I'll continue to pick and choose which events I choose to enter but it's comforting to know that there are choices I can make. I can base my decision on several factors and I'm not stuck to any one promotor or event.

YR

How do others feel?[/quote]

[donkey]

Sturat-

Might as well throw me on your banned list as well. After 4 or 5 Idyllwild events I'll not be back. The course is great but I can't see why I should support 24HOA when you've exhibited to the endurance community that you won't support us.

Let's not be hypocrites folks....support the local promoter that actually cares about the community and will still be around after the circus leaves town.

I never saw the point of a midnight corn roast anyway.

B

[Zonic Man]

What is it about bike racers that cannot spell?

Jeez!

[Fishtoes2000]

I did the 24HOA Worlds in Whistler and didn't plan on returning due to the high cost. Being charged for a crummy web site was a total slap in the face. Banning Jeff is the nail in the coffin.

Please add me to the banned-for-life list.

I've got plenty to do with Trans-Iowa, Leadville, Lumberjack, and Boyne.

[mtbbill]

I pledge to not to do a 24HOA event for at least one year.

Epic Rides - I'll see you in Tucson
Granny Gear - I'll see you in Temecula

Both of these folks put on great events, they are cheaper, and they do not require volunteers.

[Enduro Adventures]

Here in WNC we ride, rain, or shine, mud or dust. The other policy I stated was the event would run rain or shine. You know we don't exactly live where hurricanes have ever devestated before, it is also not tornado alley. It already costs way more to put on an event like this than most people could imagine, and folks balk at tha price as it is. Do you know how many teams it takes just to pay the minimum price for liability, and suplimental coverage for the racers? Would it be like a web usage fee? Pass it on to the racers? No I am sorry. The odds are the race goes on with out a hitch, I will offer an alternate date, or a free entry next year rather than line the pockets of insurance companies. Does the insurance cover someone dropping out because all of a sudden their nephew is getting married or because their dog got hit by a car, (why wasn't he on a leash?) We all take chances, calculated risks. I just will not take someones money with out giving them a choice of an alternate date, or an entry into next years race. If I refund one person, then why should I not refund everyone?

[rey]

Originally Posted by Guitar Ted

Hey, thought you all would like to know that Stuart Dorland has "suspended" Jeff Kerkove from any 24hrs of Adrenaline events for a year based on the comments he made in this thread! This means he cannot race at Worlds, an event he has been preparing for all year. I know Jeff will not respond to this action here, so I am taking the initiative to let you guys in on this preposterous action.

Looks like 24sports has adopted the "NO SOUP FOR YOU!!!" business model. an interesting gambit.............hrmmmm

[hmosley]

fellow endurance racers take note. the 24 hours of Moab, has long been the 24 hour Amtri worlds..few know this. Solos and teams take note, that it is not the race director who determins what a world championship is, it is the racers who show up to the venue and race. We have a promoter out their, Laird Knight, who has shown us time and time again, what a great event he can put on. A tough course, great camping, great results, right at our fingertips, state of the art computer systems, and get this a super large cash purse to the top soloists...top three might I add..he is a great promoter, who we need to start recognizing.

I just spoke with him at length via phone, about the need for a true World chamionships, a great venue, where racers are treated with respect. The 24 hours of Moab, is the perfect place for this. I raced here solo last year, and the course is challenging, yet fair, and worthy of being a world championship course. Plus it is Moab..the home of mountain biking, what a perfect place for a worlds. Plus we do not have to travel to another country!

Long story short, Laird, will back us 100%. He said he will do his part to make this event, the 24 hours of Moab, a true World chamionship. It is time someone does things the right way.

calling Laird was my idea, Stuart might feel like he can take away our money, but he cannot take away our right for a real World Championship Calibur event.

The ball is now in our court, I urge everyone to register for Moab this year. The New world Chamionship!

[hmosley]

fellow endurance racers take note. the 24 hours of Moab, has long been the 24 hour Amtri worlds..few know this. Solos and teams take note, that it is not the race director who determins what a world championship is, it is the racers who show up to the venue and race. We have a promoter out their, Laird Knight, who has shown us time and time again, what a great event he can put on. A tough course, great camping, great results, right at our fingertips, state of the art computer systems, and get this a super large cash purse to the top soloists...top three might I add..he is a great promoter, who we need to start recognizing.

I just spoke with him at length via phone, about the need for a true World chamionships, a great venue, where racers are treated with respect. The 24 hours of Moab, is the perfect place for this. I raced here solo last year, and the course is challenging, yet fair, and worthy of being a world championship course. Plus it is Moab..the home of mountain biking, what a perfect place for a worlds. Plus we do not have to travel to another country!

Long story short, Laird, will back us 100%. He said he will do his part to make this event, the 24 hours of Moab, a true World chamionship. It is time someone does things the right way.

calling Laird was my idea, Stuart might feel like he can take away our money, but he cannot take away our right for a real World Championship Calibur event.

The ball is now in our court, I urge everyone to register for Moab this year. The New world Chamionship!

[glenzx]

Originally Posted by hmosley

fellow endurance racers take note. the 24 hours of Moab, has long been the 24 hour Amtri worlds..few know this. Solos and teams take note, that it is not the race director who determins what a world championship is, it is the racers who show up to the venue and race. We have a promoter out their, Laird Knight, who has shown us time and time again, what a great event he can put on. A tough course, great camping, great results, right at our fingertips, state of the art computer systems, and get this a super large cash purse to the top soloists...top three might I add..he is a great promoter, who we need to start recognizing.

I just spoke with him at length via phone, about the need for a true World chamionships, a great venue, where racers are treated with respect. The 24 hours of Moab, is the perfect place for this. I raced here solo last year, and the course is challenging, yet fair, and worthy of being a world championship course. Plus it is Moab..the home of mountain biking, what a perfect place for a worlds. Plus we do not have to travel to another country!

Long story short, Laird, will back us 100%. He said he will do his part to make this event, the 24 hours of Moab, a true World chamionship. It is time someone does things the right way.

calling Laird was my idea, Stuart might feel like he can take away our money, but he cannot take away our right for a real World Championship Calibur event.

The ball is now in our court, I urge everyone to register for Moab this year. The New world Chamionship!

Ugh. Anywhere but Moab! That course & venue are terrible, IMO. Smoke, dust, sand, smoke, dust, sand - and more sand. Never mind Lee Bridgers assessment! Yikes.

It is one of those event's that every mtbiker interested in sheer spectacle and endurance racing should check out sometime in their life... of all the events in the US/CAN - isn't there a better venue than Moab? Ack. The 24HOA course at McDowell Park is great, as is Epic Rides' Old Pueblo course (speaking of the few I have experience with...). What about Temecula? Sounds like that's OK, no? Moab just seems like an overly abused and unfun course, that thankfully the crowd and management of the evnt help temper - but riding that course is juts not very fun - again, except for the fact you're with similarly psycho buddies!

[alizbee]

I enjoy the Moab course. I've done it as a team, and as a solo. It does get smokey and sandy, but that is all part of the atmosphere that makes it an amazing event.

[mward]

What about 24 hours of the Ozarks. That's still TBA on their website and it's 3 weeks away! (And real close to me so I'd actually consider going).

[3p0]

wow, i've never raced a big 24 hour event.
local 12 hour for a few years but that's about it.

I do it for the comrodery, not the compotion...

and after reading this I'll never do one for 24hoa

I ran into this subject on one of my buddies blogs. and followed the links until I got here and read all this.

It made me so pissed off, I've flubbed off work all morning just to read this, set up an account, and all to tell Stewart.

dude, you suck.
get outa puttin on races,
your giving it a bad name.

3p0

[laird@grannygear.com]

Originally Posted by twenty4 sports

Please note that Granny Gears fees are substantially move than ours for example. Do your fact checking before posting. Speaking of Granny Gear... Larid Knight sued Trilife two years ago and the company was lost to bankruptcy. NOTE... he sued use for the rules for 24 hour racing... I ask the question who should control the rules? He sued us for the use of "24 Hours of _______" anything... that's right folks....

I typically keep to my work and haven't taken the opportunity to peruse these boards but several of my racers have informed me about this thread. First, I'd like to say, I'm really imressed with how much buzz there is about 24-hour racing. I created this format for the mountain biker's keen nose for fun and it's gratifying to see how much fun is being had.

Second, I want to acknowledge Nat Ross for his excellent list of criteria for a great 24-hour race: http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php...923&postcount=9

Lastly, I'm calling Bullshi**! on Stuarts rhetoric

1st Bullshi**!: Stuart, stop spinning the facts. Let's look at the largest class, the 4-person team:
24hoa 4-person team $575 + 10 web fee + $20 insurance fee = $605
GGP 4-person team $560 + 12 cc processing = $572 (substantially more? No, actually less)
Even GGP's solo enty is less AND we award 50% CASH back to the racers

2nd Bullshi**!: Stuart dumped $285,000 on his creditors when he bankrupted Trilife. He was involved in three lawsuits at the time, all of which were created by his actions. Granny Gear Productions won its lawsuit against Trilife because Stuart was in blatant copyright infringment AND cyber-piracy. Stuart weasled out of paying his bills AND dodged judgements that were coming his way. He didn't event pay his lawyers. They are some of the creditors listed in the bankruptcy papers!

Stuart, stop whining. It's SO un-becoming. You got a HUGE break. And stop blaming me for all your problems just because I have the integrity to protect my intellectual property and my trademarks. (And the integrity to pay my bills)

BTW Folks, GGP does allow transfering or forwarding entry fees. Come join us in Moab if you can. It's an absolutely spectacular event. Keep the rubber side down.

http://www.grannygear.com

[Pinch]

Just read through all of this post. I have never raced a 24 hour event and probably never will. In fact, I am not a racer at all. So, perhaps I cannot fully appreciate all of this. However, this appears to me to be the most blatant use of a business to carry out a personal grudge that I have ever seen.

Stuart (whoever you are) - It's clear that you had some dirty laundry aired on this post. Unfortunately, you have mishandled it and created even more. It appears to me that the person you banned from your race was trying to merely give constructive criticism. The result of that was a lot of people saying a lot of things about you here in this forum. Whether or not any of it is true, I don't know. But, judging just by the information on this post it is very evident that you are not getting to the heart of the real issue - your relationship with and image amongst the racers. Banning a racer because of his well-intended comments will not make up for this. He is not the source of your frustration. Those who jumped in and lambasted you on this forum are. You missed your target.

[Cyclenaut]

A real world championship? How 'bout one that actually includes races around the world?

Want one that's cheap? How 'bout one that's cheaper than any 24HOA or Granny Gear race. One that includes a $20,000 cash purse, free camping, free spectating, and free massage for racers.

Want to know the quality of the race? Ask around about Mountain Mayhem and Sleepless in the Saddle in the UK. These races sell out within 48 hours after the race registration opens, simply because they are great races run by an organizer who works for the racers.

Bike Magazine agrees.

Nat Ross designed the course

Sleepless in the Saddle USA

I know Laird, and I like him. I think he puts on great races. He's dedicated to the sport, and his passion shows through.

[laird@grannygear.com]

Originally Posted by twenty4 sports

Never have I never stated that I started 24 hour racing... larid did. Producing great events is what we have been doing for years and yes these days we are challenged due to the lawsuit from Granny Gear against Trilife... the point is that he wants to own the rules and regulations to 24 hour mountain biking and if he would have won, precedence would have been set and everyone would need to pay the piper. The shear fact that you and larid spoke during the lawsuit speaks volumes. Continue putting on great events, and enjoy kicking a man when he is down.

I've countered some of Stuart's other rhetoric, so why stop now? It's important that folks know the truth about Trilife. This kind of warped spin should not go unanswered.

Let's break this down, line by line:
Never have I never stated that I started 24 hour racing... larid did. Yes, I did. And how did I do that? Perhaps by writing the rules?

these days we are challenged due to the lawsuit from Granny Gear against Trilife Considering that you got out from under $285,000 of debt and weaseled out of the $135,000 judgement that Granny Gear Productions won against you, exactly how is it that you are challenged? Isn't it you creditors who had to absorb your debts the ones who are now chllenged?

... the point is that he wants to own the rules and regulations to 24 hour mountain biking No, I only want to own the copyrighted rules that I wrote and crafted based on 12 years of mountain bike racing and race promoting. The rules that you saw fit to copy, verbatim, and use as your own. That's called copywrite infringement and a court of law found you guilty of it. Anyone is welcome to create their own set of rules to govern whatever kind of race they would like to create.

and if he would have won, (We DID win) precedence would have been set and everyone would need to pay the piper. No, only those who wish to use MY rules need to pay, as several race promoters who sanction their events with AMTRI do. They get a handsome return on their investment by being able to get the credibility of using the original rules legitimately and attracting racers far and wide who are accustomed to these rules.

The shear fact that you (Adam Rupell from Chico Racing a Canadian competitor to Stuart) and larid spoke during the lawsuit speaks volumes The only volume it speaks to me is that I really enjoyed meeting Adam. He a mountain biker's mountain biker. And while I've never attended one of his 24-hour races, he's earned a great reputation. No surprise to me. He's clearly dedicated to the sport.

Continue putting on great events, and enjoy kicking a man when he is down. There you go again, playing the victim. For goodness sake, start taking responsibility. YOU created this.

[mp3]

Originally Posted by laird@grannygear.com

I've countered some of Stuart's other rhetoric, so why stop now? It's important that folks know the truth about Trilife. This kind of warped spin should not go unanswered.

Let's break this down, line by line:
Never have I never stated that I started 24 hour racing... larid did. Yes, I did. And how did I do that? Perhaps by writing the rules?

these days we are challenged due to the lawsuit from Granny Gear against Trilife Considering that you got out from under $285,000 of debt and weaseled out of the $135,000 judgement that Granny Gear Productions won against you, exactly how is it that you are challenged? Isn't it you creditors who had to absorb your debts the ones who are now chllenged?

... the point is that he wants to own the rules and regulations to 24 hour mountain biking No, I only want to own the copyrighted rules that I wrote and crafted based on 12 years of mountain bike racing and race promoting. The rules that you saw fit to copy, verbatim, and use as your own. That's called copywrite infringement and a court of law found you guilty of it. Anyone is welcome to create their own set of rules to govern whatever kind of race they would like to create.

and if he would have won, (We DID win) precedence would have been set and everyone would need to pay the piper. No, only those who wish to use MY rules need to pay, as several race promoters who sanction their events with AMTRI do. They get a handsome return on their investment by being able to get the credibility of using the original rules legitimately and attracting racers far and wide who are accustomed to these rules.

The shear fact that you (Adam Rupell from Chico Racing a Canadian competitor to Stuart) and larid spoke during the lawsuit speaks volumes The only volume it speaks to me is that I really enjoyed meeting Adam. He a mountain biker's mountain biker. And while I've never attended one of his 24-hour races, he's earned a great reputation. No surprise to me. He's clearly dedicated to the sport.

Continue putting on great events, and enjoy kicking a man when he is down. There you go again, playing the victim. For goodness sake, start taking responsibility. YOU created this.

Laird

Thanks for clarifying the issue. I've always been confused by this supposed wanting to own the rules of 24 hour racing. It looks like Homer Simpson laziness and not taking the time to sit down to think up some original 24 hour racing rules caused the whole problem.
You were just basically saying, "I wrote some rules. Go write your own because if you want to use mine there's a fee for that." Got it.

Mario

[mward]

Hey Laird, since you're here, any info on 24 Hours of Ozarks?? There's a whole mess of insane endurance racers in the KC area who are interested.

[2 wrongs]

I guess the lesson learned here is "What comes around goes around".

[zhifchik]

Originally Posted by sperky

.........Kudos to Jeff for trying to clarify his point in a response instead of being upset about the rudeness of Stuart.

Now the next question is how Stuart will handle Jeff's refund, particular since that is what started this whole thread in the first place.

That was exactly my thought on this matter. Does a "NO REFUNDS" policy hold if the promoter bans a rider?

Without knowing the full background to the two individuals it seems that Stuart may have been a little stressed with event organisation and that may be why he took the Soup Nasty approach (being PC). Let's face it there's competitors from all over the world coming along, a mate and his wife (sorry, volunteer) just left Australia for Canada today.

Talking about 24HOA qualifiers, great events and BIG 24 hr races, we are 38 days away from the start of the 2005 MONT here in Canberra, Australia. 2,400 riders and an equal number of supporters will descend on Kowen Forest for our biggest 24hr race and probably one of the biggest in the world, at least in terms of numbers if not international status. Interestingly, it's still run by a club and not a professional promoter. The Mont

[mtbski]

I've read the threads and I think Sturat is ridiculous!

I raced my first 24hoa at Hurkey Creek this spring. I was on a 10 person coporate team. I was there to have fun and did. I decided not to go this fall because of the price. I'm not your typical racer, just an enthusiast who likes to ride a lot. I am very dissapointed to hear how 24hoa operates.

Unless Sturat kisses some major a$$ and lifts his ban on Jeff and makes a public apology and makes things right I may never go back and I'm sure many more will do the same. Besides his price is getting out of control.

If Sturat responds and straightens out this mess then good for him.

If he doesn't then Fock 24hoa.

[flyingsuperpetis]

But wait, there's more:

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=125465

[Soloracer]

Originally Posted by Cyclenaut

A real world championship? How 'bout one that actually includes races around the world?

Want one that's cheap? How 'bout one that's cheaper than any 24HOA or Granny Gear race. One that includes a $20,000 cash purse, free camping, free spectating, and free massage for racers.

Want to know the quality of the race? Ask around about Mountain Mayhem and Sleepless in the Saddle in the UK. These races sell out within 48 hours after the race registration opens, simply because they are great races run by an organizer who works for the racers.

Bike Magazine agrees.

Nat Ross designed the course

Sleepless in the Saddle USA

I know Laird, and I like him. I think he puts on great races. He's dedicated to the sport, and his passion shows through.

I'm throwing my support behind these guys. I think in order to be a true World Championship the race should be held on more than one continent.

Jim

[bwellisley]

the last event i have done/will do with 24hoa was ths u.s. nat'ls. upon arriving his people charged me extra money for having my wife along as my support, but since she was not a racer they charged an extra $5. good thing they didn't see my 6mo. old boy in back! i had to track him down twice to get my money back, but i eventually did.

the race event was a complete flop imo! no differentation between those of us competing in the nat'l solo competition vs those in the team or regular class. no assigned pits. no rankings. the course was not completed until the evening before, and it ended up being different than what they were initially telling riders.

i also had numerous emails with stuart and his staff trying to get a copy of the dvd made/shown at the awards banquet the fall before at the 2004 wsc in whistler. i was promised on 3 different occasions, including in person at the nat'ls, that i would be getting one. i even offered to send him some helmet cam footage of the courses. glad i didn't waste my money with that!! until these issues are resolved i will not plan on attending another event.

adam (chico) has done an awesome job! i suggest his events to all of my biking friends, and attend 3-4 of his events each year...1st class!!!! i am planning to attend a gg event soon as well as some other new promoters

stuart, i urge you to consider the racers' comments and situations more seriously, and definitely follow through on your promises. i'm always glad to help out promoters when i have a chance as i know also how much work goes into preparing just the course to be raced.

[twenty4 sports]

I cannot wait to answer your BS...

I will concentrate on the task at hand and will certainly tell the facts as they are, not what you state there are.

Riders... ask Larid should anyone own the rules to 24 Hour Racing?

[donkey]

Originally Posted by twenty4 sports

I cannot wait to answer your BS...

Riders... ask Larid should anyone own the rules to 24 Hour Racing?

Yes, if Laird copyrighted them, which I believe he did, he should own the rights to them. Is there some reason that you can't write your own rules?

Unbelievable that you plan to have this fight on the internet for all to witness.....a true professional!

For your own sake and the "future of the sport".... take your grieveances out of the public eye.

You have no idea how many people read these boards and base their opinions on what they read. I have a feeling this whole soap opera will haunt you for a while.

B

[Cyclenaut]

Originally Posted by twenty4 sports

I cannot wait to answer your BS...

I will concentrate on the task at hand and will certainly tell the facts as they are, not what you state there are.

Riders... ask Larid should anyone own the rules to 24 Hour Racing?

[pedantic]

L-a-i-r-d

[/pedantic]

[mward]

Originally Posted by twenty4 sports

Riders... ask Larid should anyone own the rules to 24 Hour Racing?

If they're his rules he does, you bunghole. You don't know when to shut up. The backlash from stupidly banning Jeff is going to be felt in your pocketbook for years. Shut up while everyone just thinks you're a dick and not a flaming *******. Word of mouth is murder when you stick your foot in your mouth like this. You should apologize, let jeff race free, and kiss ass for a year.

[chicoracing]

In the past Trilife/Twenty4Sports was organized behind the scenes by individuals who cared about the sport and did a pretty good job in spite of Mr.Dorland. Now that Twenty4 Sports is a one man show you are seeing the true Mr. Dorland shine through.

His organization destroyed their reputation in a few short months locally in Ontario and even threatened a Canadian cycling website to supply the IP addresses of those who posted negative comments about Trilife/Twenty4 Sports because they wanted to seek legal action against them. The website administrator posted Stuart's wishes on their own site sending posters into even more of a frenzy.

You've witnessed an athlete and customer of Twenty4 Sports who posted fair comments about Twenty4 Sports and for that he was banned from doing their "Worlds". This is terrible, but not surprising, as this is how Stuart treats many of his clients/participants or anyone who questions his policies. In turn he's generated more bad press for his company, and lost customers, yet he comes to post a rebutal to Laird instead of an apology to Jeff and retraction of the ban.

Stuart it is obvious you made a rash decision against Jeff and you need to help him race at your 24 hour Worlds. You might salvage whatever is left of your reputation in the process.