Lance goes big (on the Behemoth...)

[mikesee]

Got up a bit earlier than normal today and headed out to a local trailhead to meet up with Lance Canfield and a few photogs. Good light, light breezes, and tacky dirt meant that all was a go.

A few weeks ago Lance expressed interest in trying big wheels out for DH racing (which he did and has posted elsewhere about it) but it got me to thinking about how the Behemoth is capable of so much more than I'll ever be able to do. So we chatted a bit about it and to my surprise he thought it was a good idea to take the 'Moth out and ride a few steep lines/jumps to see how it felt. Why was this a good idea? Lance is a world-class FR/DH rider with few peers. If anyone can put this bike to the test, it's Lance.

As always, the pics can't begin to convey the steepness, speed, or exposure involved in a move like this. In fact, Jason and I were joking about the approach--there's a ~5 footer that needs to be dropped just to get the right speed/angle for the real drop, and Lance made both of them look so easy. Of the hundreds and hundreds of people that ride this area with regularity, I know of about 5 people that will even take the drop in on the approach, much less the main line.

For perspective, realize that if you stand directly below the lip, touching the takeoff rock, it's about 7 feet tall. Now factor in that Lance is hitting the takeoff at ~15-18mph, and you can start to get a feel for how far out he's going before touching down. I had my eye stuck in the viewfinder each time he did it so I can't accurately gauge how far he was going. Lance--any idea?

The 1st and 3rd shots below were the 4th time this morning that Lance did the drop, and he landed below the ridge and out of sight from my perspective. On the first one he used his 26" DH bike to "get a feel" for the jump, the speed, the dirt, the wind, etc... On the next three he used the Behemoth, and it was immediately obvious that he was going significantly faster/farther on the Behemoth than on the 26"er. I asked him if he could feel the difference in speed and he laughed. I can't quote him because I don't remember his exact words, but his response was something along the lines of, 'The big wheels roll so much faster, and carry momentum so much better...'. Hopefully he'll check in here later and give his $.09.

{EDIT} I just added a 5th photo below to show his takeoff and landing points. The takeoff is back a bit from where you'd expect--there's just no good in-run to the furthest point, so he takes it with a bit more speed and then hops UP to clear the main point. Note to Lance--I think you cleared it okay... The landing is approximated--he was actually landing on the other side of the ridge, out of sight from where I stood. Suffice it to say, it was sufficient...

JohnDub was there with the vid-cam, and he commented that just watching Lance do these moves was dangerous. Huh? He clarified by saying that Lance was so smooth that it'd be easy to think that the moves were doable for most folks. Agreed.

Lance was that smooth, making it look very easy, but I still have zero plans to duplicate the big drops. Ever. How 'bout you, Jason?

One quote that I do remember Lance saying (regarding the Behemoth) was this: "It's a little less travel than I'm used to, but it's such a versatile bike that I'd love to have one... Light, smooth--it's just really fun to ride".

After a few runs at it the wind picked up a bit too much for comfort, so we moved lower and Lance sessioned a couple of jumps. Smooth moves and some ok shots. The fourth shot below is a tabletop jump, and the distance across the top of the table has to be close to 20 feet. Again, my eye was stuck in the viewfinder so it was hard to actually see it happenning, but the sound of his tires approaching the lip was loud, followed by silence/freehub clicking as he floated into the frame. Seemed like he was in the air long enough to write a letter home to Mom...

Thanks again, Lance, for coming out and showing us XC geeks (and now the rest of the world) how it's done.

MC

[ncj01]

holy shiiiiiiiii.......

someone needs to cross post this to the FR/DH forum...

[Padre]

Seem's like the Exi's handled that drop with aplomb...
That's SICK seeing a 9er go HUGE.
After seeing Lance absolutely go nuts at the Rampage last October...I can keenly visualized his air attack on the Behemoth. *jealous

[Debaser]

Uh... I know where that's at, and that's H U G E !

Regardless of bike, that's a heck of a move. His comments sure are interesting...

[Cloxxki]

OH MY...

That guy much have so much more fun riding/flying bikes than us mere mortals...

Thanks a lot for setting this 'shoot up, Mike! This post will be linked whenever someone says 700c wheels have no part in DH/FR.

The 'Moth is probably one of the lightest FS bikes ever exposed to such long airtime.
Also, how about that airtime for a sub-2kg singlecrown fork? I own a 85mm 26" XC fork that weight.

I think the 'Moth could be a race winner over 2000 competitors, in the right hands at the Alpe d'Huez Megavalance. Stability, manouevrebility and natural speed, all good when bombing down a gletcher (sp).

Please insert these picture when requesting a wider tire from a tire comp :-)

Not bad for a 'cross bike...

[aosty]

Nice PhotoSlop job! Everyone knows 29"ers aren't flickable



Wow, that's got to be the biggest 29"er huck to date by far!

[Cloxxki]

Please remind me...why again does one ever need more than 5" of travel, or double crown forks?

If I were talked into attempting that, I'd secretly pack a parashute, in case halfway the airtime I change my mind.

I can't huck a traffic curb, but I want that bike!

[Robot Chicken]

Originally Posted by aosty

Nice PhotoSlop job! Everyone knows 29"ers aren't flickable



Wow, that's got to be the biggest 29"er huck to date by far!

OMG! That guy has got some BALLS! He brave enough just even hucking such a light fork!!

Most of us wouldn't do some of that even with a Monster T up front! (yes, I'm a sissy, but at least a sissy with no broken bones!)

[EkoMan]

Mike asked me above if I was going to try this...no Mike, not this week...or next for that matter. I would like to point out to everyone reading that Lance is one of the top five technical riders in the world, he made this look easy...too easy. He has skills that have been honed over many years, that is how he is able to do this.

The bike and components (fork) are worthy of much Freeriding, but if you are working on your skills you will break almost anything and everything getting to the level of Lance - it goes with the territory.

We did this little photo shoot to show what is capable, and that equipment exists to do this kind of riding if you have the skills. I will go on a limb and say that what doesn't necessarily exist is overbuilt equipment for the learning curve (although we have a double crown fork that is). The tires still sketch Lance out a little bit, and if he had cased the front end who know what might have resulted - but that's what makes him Lance, if he wasn't sure of himself and the equipment, for his level of riding, he would not have tried it.

It was amazing to watch him in this brief morning session - even more so on 29" wheeled product. Bring on the disbelievers, I have yet to witness anything that a 29" wheeled bike can't do as good if not better than a similar 26" wheeled bike under the proper rider.

Jason
aka rossixc

[Godzilla]

Originally Posted by Debaser

Uh... I know where that's at, and that's H U G E !

Regardless of bike, that's a heck of a move. His comments sure are interesting...

Thumper (Grant) and I were checking that out last time we were in GJ, the thing not shown in the picture is the shelf 20 feet or so down the hill that would put the hurt on a mere mortal should they have the misfortune to come up short (assuming this is where I think it is) - the drop is like a big step down.

Grant and I had serious thoughts about taking up croquet after seeing the drop in person and watching footage of Lance hitting it afterward at Joel's (singletrack's) house.

[flymybike]

Sorry everyone for my slow responce to the 29 threads. I'ts been crazy since Angle Fire.

This morning MC, Rossixc and a couple others went out to Lunch Loop in GJ to see if the Moth could handle some hucking.
I haven't read this entire thread but MC and Jason have passed my conclusions.

The tires are not nearly good enough to be a DH/FR tire. The squirm and thin casings are the biggest problem with the 29 being used for this. There are no side knobs on the Exi so I had a few moments of pucker on the entrance to the drop shown in the other thread. I was running 28 rear and 25 front and it was fine for what we did, smooth, not rocky, but I would kill those tires. As soon as a tuff tire is available I will try this again but until then I'll stick with my Minnions.
The rim held for 1/2 a run at Angel Fire. I flatted on a straight open run with few rocks, slicing the tube about 1 1/4" long in two places. Dented/flat spotted the rim but I'm not sure the rim was a problem. Just not enough sidewall to resist smashing through the tire and hurting the rim.

The ride:
The way a 29" wheel rolls over everything is amazing. The momentium you can hold is so much more than a 26", I over shot a jump on my first try and had to throttle back a bit for the next hit. For rocky race courses a 29 would be a huge help but like I said, it won't happen untill the tires can hold up. At Angel Fire I found myself aiming for the roughest line just to see how it felt and I never had it hang up or lead me off line. It just drove right through without any hesitation.

There needs to be some geometry tweeks to allow a properly handling 26/29 combo to work for DH but can easily be done in the fork or the frame.

--------------------------------------

I design and test for White Brothers and have full confedence in the products we build. I want to be sure that everyone that is on one feels as confedent as I am and to prove the strength I am willing to go out on a limb, as the pic show. I don't have a death wish, I just like to see what works and also what isn't really right for the application. I would say that a 5" travel bike isn't really the right application here but if done correctly it CAN be done. I don't see a application for the 29" bikes in a DH/FR application until the industry steps up and builds the right stuff, ie tires.

[flymybike]

On the step down picture, the take off is the first rock shelf and airing out over the second shelf to land on the seam between the red and the gray behind the hill, out of view. You can see the seam (vaugely) in the shot as it wraps around to the other side of the hill.

Mike - you have a red X marks the spot photo to post.

[GlowBoy]

My stomach dropped a foot just looking at the second photo. Simply staggering. Way to go!

[jl]

Absolutely incredible! I'm now going to take cribbage, bridge, and canasta classes to start a new passion, I'm not worthy ...

Originally Posted by flymybike

I don't see a application for the 29" bikes in a DH/FR application until the industry steps up and builds the right stuff, ie tires.

Since WTB seems to be the only company willing to lead in the 29" tire development--would the timberwolf or weirwolf DH 29er tire fit-the-bill?

I just don't see any other company willing to risk--building a tire just for Lance... Although some other companies have built bikes just for another Lance, hmmm maybe if I changed my name to Lance then, just thinking, uh nevermind :-)...

Seriously, do those tire standup to serious hucking in the 26" world?

[Enel]

Lance:

I don't know how tall you are, but that bike looks like it fits you juuuust right.

Proportionally to you, the wheels look like 26ers.

[ifallalot]

Lance is 7 ft 8 inch tall and can shoot lazer beams with his eyes... he has skills...

[flymybike]

Originally Posted by jl

Absolutely incredible! I'm now going to take cribbage, bridge, and canasta classes to start a new passion, I'm not worthy ...


Since WTB seems to be the only company willing to lead in the 29" tire development--would the timberwolf or weirwolf DH 29er tire fit-the-bill?

I just don't see any other company willing to risk--building a tire just for Lance... Although some other companies have built bikes just for another Lance, hmmm maybe if I changed my name to Lance then, just thinking, uh nevermind :-)...

Seriously, do those tire standup to serious hucking in the 26" world?

I work with a guy who runs the WTB tires. I personally have no experiance with them. Eric says that they would both be a step in the right direction. I guess it just depends on how strong a casing and the tread pattern that WTB decides to make. I feel a good tread pattern like the mich 2.8, Intense 909 or my person fav, Maxxis Minnion would be what I would want. The Mich side wall is a bit soft, the 909 is too stiff and the Maxxis.... well you know. I'm feeling an overwelming need to take a nap.

I am 6.0 foot tall. I drug my leg on the tire getting on and off the bike every time! It didn't give me a buzz though. heheh

[flymybike]

how many screen names do you have Jason?

[discodave]

Looks like all we need is a tire.Somebody needs to get on the phone to WTB right away. You know if a rider like lance is down with the concept of 29" who else might be. Maybe in couple of years we will be seeing 29" in every new freeride video coming out. This could very well be a watershed moment in life of the 29" wheel. Eat that RC.

[johndub]

Usually at this time of morning I am in a meeting, so heading out to the trail was a welcome distraction.

I have video of all of the drops and a few points cannot be over-emphasized:

1. The lead-in 5-footer that MikeSee notes, wouldn't even be looked twice at by 98% of the riders around here. From a distance on the video it looks like Lance is hopping off a curb when he does it.

2. After he lands (and on the video I can verify that MikeSee's estimate of the landing site is just slightly on the side) he is almost immediately going 30 mph and still has a couple "ripples" in the hill to maneuver before making it to the runout.

3. Lance makes this look truly pedestrian and it scared me that in my head I thought, "That looked easy!"

[Padre]

Lance is right, it seems.
29ers aren't the right call for full on DH.

BUT, for a bike to hammer mercilessly at Goosberry or doing 6 hours of shuttle runs at Brianhead, it seems to be just what the doctor ordered....

[SHIVER ME TIMBERS]

looks like a 26 incher.......any close ups???

[mikesee]

Originally Posted by SHIVER ME TIMBERS

looks like a 26 incher.......any close ups???

2nd pic above ain't close enough?

How 'bout these. Taken a few weeks ago, so a few of the components are different--but it's the same bike.

MC

[mikesee]

Originally Posted by Padre

Lance is right, it seems.
29ers aren't the right call for full on DH.

I don't think that's exactly what he said. Given the right tire (calls were placed today, btw...) he said it would be the right call.

Originally Posted by Padre

BUT, for a bike to hammer mercilessly at Goosberry or doing 6 hours of shuttle runs at Brianhead, it seems to be just what the doctor ordered....

Agreed 100%. Our local riding is a lot like Gooseberry--just more/steeper climbing/descending. And that's exactly what I wanted this bike for. Will I take it to Crested Butte for all-day alpine epics? Nope. But if I head to Moab, the San Rafael Swell, Gooseberry, Whistler, etc... it's the first choice.

This Behemoth (and a few like it) will be available to be ridden at the on-dirt in Vegas this year, and will definitely be at Gooseberry before/after the show.

MC

[SHIVER ME TIMBERS]

Originally Posted by mikesee

2nd pic above ain't close enough?

How 'bout these. Taken a few weeks ago, so a few of the components are different--but it's the same bike.

MC

air shock too..........dammm

[TheSherpa]

I agree with the fact that 29ers won't be mainstream DH/FR for many, many years.

Also, that bike WOULD NOT hold to that kind of abuse on a daily basis, and thats what you 29er fundamentalists need.

My thoughts on which way the industry is going to have to go for 29ers to become mainstream:

-Minaar, Peat, Gracia, Athertons, Vink etc. are going to have to be racing them. (The DH industry follows the best, and it seems more prevalent than in XC.)
-Tires (Atleast 2.5 and 2.7 to be better, and no shitty WTB tires either. Almost noone races WTB tires on the DH circuit, someones going to have to have Maxxis, Michelin or Kenda make a tire.)
-Some companies going to have to sponsor a bunch of people, and have them on 29ers cheap. I'm talking a big grassroots type program.

[mikesee]

Originally Posted by TheSherpa

I agree with the fact that 29ers won't be mainstream DH/FR for many, many years.

You're probably right, although I think this really hinges on what the tire companies do, and when. If they build them (29" DH tires) they will come.

Originally Posted by TheSherpa

Also, that bike WOULD NOT hold to that kind of abuse on a daily basis, and thats what you 29er fundamentalists need.

No disrespect intended, but how would you know? You've neither seen nor ridden this bike, and it's possible but unlikely that you've ridden these trails. My $.02 is that this bike can be ridden like this as well as and as long as any other bike on the market. There are undoubtedly full DH bikes (frames weighing ~5+ lbs more than this one) that can take more abuse without breaking, but there are also full DH bikes that don't last as long as this one already has.

I have no idea how to take your '29er fundamentalists' comment. Care to explain?

Originally Posted by TheSherpa

My thoughts on which way the industry is going to have to go for 29ers to become mainstream:
-Minaar, Peat, Gracia, Athertons, Vink etc. are going to have to be racing them.
-Tires (Atleast 2.5 and 2.7 to be better).

Again, you're probably right here. Then again--it's gotten this far with no one BIG company or person (and hence no big ad $$$) really backing it, so who's to say it can't happen? We have forks, frames, and rims. Undoubtedly all of those will be tweaked and refined in the near and far future, but all we really need is ONE good tire for the DH/FR crowd to see the light. Where there is demand, supply will follow.

Regarding the tire co's, calls have been made to two of the above companies, semi-promising conversations ensued, and we'll see where they lead.

Thanks for continuing the discussion.

MC

[smelly]

Originally Posted by Cloxxki

Please remind me...why again does one ever need more than 5" of travel, or double crown forks?

aside from a small handful of people, most people NEED a bigger, burlier bike to do something like this. just because lance canfield can do it doesn't mean anyone can. i think that if anything, this demonstrates why long travel bikes are needed, because so few people are capable of actually pushing a bike to its limit. the average rider is benefited by a bike that is better than them because it can allow for a greater margin of error.

and anyway, do you need air conditioning or high speed internet or underwear or multiple bikes? there's a whole lot of stuff you don't need but you own anyway.

[TheSherpa]

Originally Posted by mikesee

You're probably right, although I think this really hinges on what the tire companies do, and when. If they build them (29" DH tires) they will come.

Yea.

Originally Posted by mikesee

No disrespect intended, but how would you know? You've neither seen nor ridden this bike, and it's possible but unlikely that you've ridden these trails. My $.02 is that this bike can be ridden like this as well as and as long as any other bike on the market. There are undoubtedly full DH bikes (frames weighing ~5+ lbs more than this one) that can take more abuse without breaking, but there are also full DH bikes that don't last as long as this one already has.

Agree, but there gotta be other tires around.
Ok, the frame i can't say anything about, other than it looks badass. But, the rear shock and fork would have to go. I'm not dissing air, but mainstream FR does. Also, i'd be very suprised if that fork can hold up to that abuse, on a daily basis, over many years.

Originally Posted by mikesee

I have no idea how to take your '29er fundamentalists' comment. Care to explain?

Just people who seem to push the idea a little to far. Every other week people are mucking up other forums where other people don't wanna hear about 29ers. I think people are turning people away from 29ers from being over pushy.

Originally Posted by mikesee

Again, you're probably right here. Then again--it's gotten this far with no one BIG company or person (and hence no big ad $$$) really backing it, so who's to say it can't happen? We have forks, frames, and rims. Undoubtedly all of those will be tweaked and refined in the near and far future, but all we really need is ONE good tire for the DH/FR crowd to see the light. Where there is demand, supply will follow.

Agree, but there gotta be other tires around.

Originally Posted by mikesee

Regarding the tire co's, calls have been made to two of the above companies, semi-promising conversations ensued, and we'll see where they lead.

Good.

Disclaimer: 2:15 a.m and i have to wake up in 2:15 to be in Deer Valley, so this post may be a little incoherent.

[20.100 FR]

>Just people who seem to push the idea a little to far. Every other week people are >mucking up other forums where other people don't wanna hear about 29ers. I think >people are turning people away from 29ers from being over pushy.


This is the same phenomenon known as "Linux evangelism".

Despites this, 29er will continue to grow (like Gnu/Linux) because it is superior.

If we make some strong opponents on the road, then be it ! It gonna be much more impassionning to fight against people (being Richard Cunningam, Bill Gates or Dark Vador ) than to have no opponents !


V

[shiggy]

Originally Posted by TheSherpa

...but there gotta be other tires around.

No. There are not. Yet.

The ExiWolf is the biggest, thickest casing 29" knobby on the market.

[flymybike]

Originally Posted by EkoMan

Bring on the disbelievers, I have yet to witness anything that a 29" wheeled bike can't do as good if not better than a similar 26" wheeled bike under the proper rider.

Jason
aka rossixc

I have yet to witness anything that a 50" wheeled bike can't do as good if not better than a similar 29" wheeled bike under the proper rider.

[El Caballo]

Originally Posted by flymybike

I have yet to witness anything that a 50" wheeled bike can't do as good if not better than a similar 29" wheeled bike under the proper rider.

Plus, that fork looks flexy.

[ifallalot]

Originally Posted by flymybike

I have yet to witness anything that a 50" wheeled bike can't do as good if not better than a similar 29" wheeled bike under the proper rider.

What about the 16 inch training wheels! if you average the 16" trainer with the 50" main wheels, you only have a 33'er... Maybe 33 is the way to go...

[Cloxxki]

33" IS the way to go for people over 6'....

The training wheel retract over 40mph. The machine is built for extremely high speed, check the negative fork offset, it'll start feeling nimble at 200mph.

[GlowBoy]

Originally Posted by TheSherpa

Just people who seem to push the idea a little to far. Every other week people are mucking up other forums where other people don't wanna hear about 29ers. I think people are turning people away from 29ers from being over pushy.

Huh? What are you talking about? How 'bout some examples? Personally, I see lots of 29" related posts "mucking up" the SS board ... but most of those are inquiries from SSers actually interested in bikes that happen to be 29"ers.

Hey, maybe I don't want to hear about -- oh, let's say Cannondale -- bikes either because I don't have one and possibly never will, yet there those Cannondale owners go mucking up all the forums.

Oh wait, that's right ... I have freedom of choice. I can decide not to read a Cannondale thread I'm not interested in, and maybe I have a life and shouldn't feel the need to read and respond to every single thread on every single forum anyway. Maybe other conversations can go on without my direct involvement. Isn't it wonderful being a higher life form?

[lil hillbilly]

Originally Posted by flymybike

I have yet to witness anything that a 50" wheeled bike can't do as good if not better than a similar 29" wheeled bike under the proper rider.

MY LORD Men this an inspiring thread. Come on baby light my downhill tires. IMO duh..... Do people really think that a larger tire and bigger rim would make that huge muther gap any easier. Patience Young Skywaker all good things come to those who wait.

[Soupboy]

el Dos Nueve. I'm still waiting for Canfield Bros. to pump out a 5-6" travel 29er "trail" bike using their parallel link design.

That would be big sloppy mams.

[qtip]

Originally Posted by smelly

aside from a small handful of people, most people NEED a bigger, burlier bike to do something like this. just because lance canfield can do it doesn't mean anyone can.

this brings up a thought I've had....only slightly OT....wouldn't it be cool to see a FR comp where these guys had to ride rigid bikes...the only suspension coming from whatever tires they choose. Wheel size is up to whatever the rider wants...but we all know what would be superior (trying to keep it on topic). Obviously the venue wouldn't be as 'huge', but I'd like to see what they can do. I'm not wanting to see anyone get hurt, I just think I would be amazed to see the 'limits' of what can be done on a rigid bike by these guys with big cahones.

[Cloxxki]

I think some events already have a hardtail class, not sure about rigid...

[Daner]

Originally Posted by TheSherpa

-Tires (Atleast 2.5 and 2.7 to be better, and no shitty WTB tires either. Almost noone races WTB tires on the DH circuit, someones going to have to have Maxxis, Michelin or Kenda make a tire.)

While Maxxis, Michelin and Kenda all make excellent DH race tires, it must be said that they also put quite a bit more money and effort into targeting those riders that have a shot at the podium. During Are Mountain Mayhem week here in Sweden last summer I had several riders testing last year's WTB TimberWolf Team DH's report that while they may not be quite as grippy, light, or well suited to second-shaving as the race tires from Maxxis and Michelin, they did provide a better balance of grip, flat protection and tread longevity. Riders shuttling the tram were wearing out their race rubber in less than two days, while the T-Wolves were still useful at the end of the week.

For 2005 the Team DH models have a softer compound mid-tread that should be a bit grippier, and the Race models are available for those more interested in keeping the weight low than keeping their sidewalls, tubes and rims alive in the unforgiving rock gardens above treeline at �re. There is still a bit of snow up there right now, but we'll find out about the new stuff during the last week of July.

I've got the Exi 2.1 26ers on my SS and can't see them as a FR tire at all. Can't freakin' believe what Lance C did with them. I'll be passing this thread on to my connections at WTB and pushing them to bring their own beefier proto 29'er rims into production, as well as bringing out full-figured tires that can do justice to bikes like the El Cap and Behemoth running the Kris Holm rims. Need to make sure that the people at Schwalbe see this as well.

[banks]

Scoty

[erol/frost]

God damn!

[Huck Banzai]

Originally Posted by 20.100 FR

>Just people who seem to push the idea a little to far. Every other week people are >mucking up other forums where other people don't wanna hear about 29ers. I think >people are turning people away from 29ers from being over pushy.


This is the same phenomenon known as "Linux evangelism".

Despites this, 29er will continue to grow (like Gnu/Linux) because it is superior.

If we make some strong opponents on the road, then be it ! It gonna be much more impassionning to fight against people (being Richard Cunningam, Bill Gates or Dark Vador ) than to have no opponents !


V

Hahahah...hey we all have our own take - good thing this one will work itself out.

29 aint ever gonna be mainstream - it might take about as much hold as SS, but really - elemetary physics teach you the wheels are not going to be laterally strong enough for 'truly' agressive riding, and the bikes are too sluggish off the line and turning especially as the wheel size necessitates at least a slight increase in wheelbase.

Not hating, to each their own - but superior? why not 40" wheels, those would roll better; this is even more hysterical when you realize alot of 'extreme' riders go to 24's to increase strenght and quickness -- nobody is going 29".

I'm sure it would make bobbly/nasty approaches smoother and more doable - but despite popular opinion freeride isnt about straightlining off of clifs.

[Daner]

HB -

Caeser's legions found the short sword to be a most effective tool during their conquests. That fact does nothing to negate the later development of the battle ax, scimitar, katana, and broadsword. All can be frightfully effective in the hands of a skilled user, but the best choice of tool depends both upon the circumstance and experience of the user.

24 x 3 Gazzas and 29 x 2.5 FR tires on 38mm rims can both be useful tools, it's just that nobody has had a chance to work with and optimize their skills for the latter. That chance is coming.

[Padre]

Originally Posted by Huck Banzai

29 aint ever gonna be mainstream -
.

Is that good or is that bad? I'm not sure, either way, I don't care since I'm having too much fun on big wheels.

[Cloxxki]

If 30 years of MTB'ing industry can't make 10% larger rims that are strong enough to survive the stuff been done on 26" since 1976, the industry might as well close doors, they failed to develop. Add 4 spokes per wheel (1.5oz per bike) and your wheels are up to the same level of toughness again. And who says we have to stick to road-sized hubs forever, even with the disc mounts now on them? Sooner or later, wider hubs will come (they were needed for hard DH too), and rider's backs will break before wheels do, even 29" ones.

[Huck Banzai]

Originally Posted by Padre

Is that good or is that bad? I'm not sure, either way, I don't care since I'm having too much fun on big wheels.

Good attitude - mind you, I dont intend to dump on 29"s - its just very silly when people claim they will take over and are better -- their are still recumbent riders making that claim.

29"s definitely smooth out the trail in a way suspension alone cant achieve. For epic chugs I imagine they are sweet.

[Huck Banzai]

Originally Posted by Daner

HB -

Caeser's legions found the short sword to be a most effective tool during their conquests. That fact does nothing to negate the later development of the battle ax, scimitar, katana, and broadsword. All can be frightfully effective in the hands of a skilled user, but the best choice of tool depends both upon the circumstance and experience of the user.

24 x 3 Gazzas and 29 x 2.5 FR tires on 38mm rims can both be useful tools, it's just that nobody has had a chance to work with and optimize their skills for the latter. That chance is coming.

Certainly understood - IMO the 29 does not have a future in the agressive arena, and will remain a niche for some trail/xc riders so long as it can sustain enough market.

Time will (continue to) tell.

[Bigwheel]

As the current owner of the bike in the above pictures I have to say all the speculation about what can, should or could happen with regards to 700c use for "aggresive" riding is pretty meaningless actually along with the arguments for and against it.

For 90% +/- of the riders in the universe the 'Moth as pictured will give them a lifetime of riding pleasure. I put alot of miles on that bike last summer/fall and enjoyed every minute of it, the fact that it saw more airtime in that one jump than it did during all those miles means little or nothing to me. The fact that I made personal best moves clearing sections up and down only walked in the past on the bike does mean something to me however.

The bike has held up as well or better as any bike I have ever owned with only routine maintence required to date and the only thing that I would like to see is a wider front specific tire made available. It will be in the stable for a long time.

[Singular]

Just on the point of strength - the only thing which makes a 29" wheel inherently weaker than a 26" is that they are using hubs of the same flange spacing, and thus have less spoke triangulation - or bracing angle.

Create hubs with a proportionately wider flange spacing and use equivalent rims to what are available in 26" and you have wheels are just as strong as their 26" cousins.

However, the vast majority of riders never test the limits of their equipment in such a way it's really going to be an issue

Sam

[Cloxxki]

well, Biggy, great to hear that flying bike is still being ridden between snow seasons, and helping you to conquer extremer terrain than you did before. As at first "everyone" was sure that 29" bikes would never get around a good corner, right now we hear they won't do the least agro riding. Oh well...

The tire may be here with in a year, be it the rumored WTB 2.5, or the semi-confirmed Kenda 2.3. I lack mountains to ride down, but for guys like you I sincerely hope your bike will get fitting shoes asap.
Do freerunners do their stuff on ballet shoes?

[<narlus>]

Originally Posted by qtip

this brings up a thought I've had....only slightly OT....wouldn't it be cool to see a FR comp where these guys had to ride rigid bikes...the only suspension coming from whatever tires they choose. Wheel size is up to whatever the rider wants...but we all know what would be superior (trying to keep it on topic). Obviously the venue wouldn't be as 'huge', but I'd like to see what they can do. I'm not wanting to see anyone get hurt, I just think I would be amazed to see the 'limits' of what can be done on a rigid bike by these guys with big cahones.

it's called observed trials.

[20.100 FR]

Waiting for an update with the bigger 2.5 WTB tires :P

[grifter9311]

Why isn't this a sticky?

[nick3216]

Originally Posted by Cloxxki

This post will be linked whenever someone says 700c wheels have no part in DH/FR.

But you will always be reminded that...

Originally Posted by EkoMan

Lance is one of the top five technical riders in the world

[Davidcopperfield]

Whatr about other Lenz frames such as Pro Descender 29" equipped with WB 203mm 29"? We are waiting for real DH bike.

[gumby]

Originally Posted by Davidcopperfield

Whatr about other Lenz frames such as Pro Descender 29" equipped with WB 203mm 29"? We are waiting for real DH bike.

Mr Magician, you have been casting your line in all these threads since you signed on yesterday under this name. Are you a regular poster frustrated by all the people wanting burly 29er's with a little more travel?

[Daner]

Be patient.

It is a tad too early to build that because the tires for that bike don't exist...yet.

[Rivet]

Originally Posted by Daner

Be patient.

It is a tad too early to build that because the tires for that bike don't exist...yet.

Welcome to 2007, way to stay on top of things.

[Mrwhlr]

Neat jump.

Got any pics of something technical?

[Padre]

Originally Posted by Mrwhlr

Neat jump.

Got any pics of something technical?

Technical is subjective...like a "neat" jump.

[mikesee]

Originally Posted by Padre

Technical is subjective...like a "neat" jump.

Funny stuff. But it makes me think back to ~ a year ago when our tire choices were so much more limited, that we couldn't imagine doing stuff like what Lance did in the photos above. Now the tires, frames, and one fork exist that may not give us the ability to do it, but at least the equipment.

I happen to know of one FR/DH worthy tire that's already in production, and one AM/FR fork that's moving from concept to design right now.

In a year, what will be the limitations, other than rider desire and skill?

??

MC

[ozlongboarder]

Originally Posted by mikesee

and one AM/FR fork that's moving from concept to design right now.


MC

Mike I am sure you cant name names but can you give us anything?
Travel?
TA?
Big company or small?


I need something to keep me going.

[Soupboy]

Picture me and your old lady making beasties.

Originally Posted by ozlongboarder

I need something to keep me going.

[ozlongboarder]

Originally Posted by Soupboy

Picture me and your old lady making beasties.

careful beeeatch I owe you money

If you were all ripped and buff it would be ok bad but your a big fat bastid

[fanghasyou]

I think its a good thing engineers design safety factors into equipment for when people try insane stuff like this so they don't die.

[Davidcopperfield]

As far as forks are concerned White Brothers are working hard on dual crown FR and Dh roks upto 203mm and adjustable for trail/ AM and XC 100-150mm and romours say that it will be under 2 kg !!!
I corresponded with them by e-mail and if you want I can paste their favourable responses

[surfinsmiley]

In my dreams I do those hucks all the time.........

Amazing sh1t!

[Davidcopperfield]

Well it 2 years elapsed nad we do not have much from Lenz except Spankster 29". Generally owing to extended shortage of <130mm forks we see serious hold up in frames development. If it wasn't for the forks by we would have quite a bunch of decent DH/ FR bikes. How much time elapsed since WB 130mm appeared?
Behemoth could have a bigger brother of 180mm travel.

[bcd]

Originally Posted by Davidcopperfield

Well it 2 years elapsed nad we do not have much from Lenz except Spankster 29". Generally owing to extended shortage of <130mm forks we see serious hold up in frames development. If it wasn't for the forks by we would have quite a bunch of decent DH/ FR bikes. How much time elapsed since WB 130mm appeared?
Behemoth could have a bigger brother of 180mm travel.

well i am planning on racing my new bcd with wb groove reduced to 150. its a perfect
for to be used now! works great.

i am on decine world cup team and am doing monte saint anne, schlandming and slovania.
this will be the first 29 dh bike used in a world cup DH! should bet a big year.

[Loki]

Originally Posted by bcd

well i am planning on racing my new bcd with wb groove reduced to 150. its a perfect
for to be used now! works great.

i am on decine world cup team and am doing monte saint anne, schlandming and slovania.
this will be the first 29 dh bike used in a world cup DH! should bet a big year.

Can, and will you run anything bigger than a 2.1? I remember something last year about the nationals not letting you go bigger than 2.1 because of the diameter being over 29 inches. Something along those lines...

[bcd]

Originally Posted by Loki

Can, and will you run anything bigger than a 2.1? I remember something last year about the nationals not letting you go bigger than 2.1 because of the diameter being over 29 inches. Something along those lines...

uci rules state nothing larger that 29'' tall. USAC is adopting UCI rules ofr 2008.

my chris holms with kenda nevegal dual comp are 1/8 less that 29''!

so i am golden with tires this year. nothing hiolding me back really.

the nevegal is great for dh, just the right amount of sidewall with the

width of the CH rim. no flats so far.

[Padre]

Originally Posted by bcd

uci rules state nothing larger that 29'' tall. USAC is adopting UCI rules ofr 2008.

my chris holms with kenda nevegal dual comp are 1/8 less that 29''!

so i am golden with tires this year. nothing hiolding me back really.

the nevegal is great for dh, just the right amount of sidewall with the

width of the CH rim. no flats so far.

question....are you running 50psi+ during races to prevent the flats or are the Nev's taking care of you that good?

[bcd]

Originally Posted by Padre

question....are you running 50psi+ during races to prevent the flats or are the Nev's taking care of you that good?

with the beads so far apart on a 38mm rim that helps, i am a finess rider
@ 150 lbs. i use around 40psi. normal 29er tubes.

they have thickers sidewalls than the WTB's i was using.

[slocaus]

Originally Posted by bcd

with the beads so far apart on a 38mm rim that helps, i am a finess rider
@ 150 lbs. i use around 40psi. normal 29er tubes.

they have thickers sidewalls than the WTB's i was using.

I'm far from a DH rider, but found that I could run Nevegal on rigid SS @ 25f / 30r psi where Exi would pinch flat at less than 40f / 45r psi; Neve has a better sidewall.

[Davidcopperfield]

How does
behetmoh stand up against Rip9, Ventanas' offer about 130mm, 5.5 29", and turner sultan in terms of agility, maneouvrability, climbing, descending etc supposed all are mated with latest upgraded 130mmWB fork and other apparel are this same. What are your empirical experiences? What weight? What tires?

[LyNx]

Hey man good luck with the racing this year and representing the 29er crowd.

Also just wanted to post a screen shot fo what your web site looks like when visited by a NON-flash using browser. Learn some HTML.

Originally Posted by bcd

with the beads so far apart on a 38mm rim that helps, i am a finess rider
@ 150 lbs. i use around 40psi. normal 29er tubes.

they have thickers sidewalls than the WTB's i was using.

[bcd]

Originally Posted by LyNx

Hey man good luck with the racing this year and representing the 29er crowd.

Also just wanted to post a screen shot fo what your web site looks like when visited by a NON-flash using browser. Learn some HTML.

why would you not use flash again?

[LyNx]

Um, I dunno could be that most flash content is un-necessary, adds nothing to the site and can be done in HTML for a much faster loading page - especially helpful for us "third worlders" who don't have T1, ADSL or some other high speed connection and have to suffer on dial-up. O rmaybe just because of the fact stated above that most of it is just utter rubbish designed in WYSIWYG editors by people who don't know WTF they are doing and adds absolutely nothing to the users experience I'm sort of strange that way, you know

BTW your site uses flash because?

Originally Posted by bcd

why would you not use flash again?

[bcd]

when was the last time you were on your bike? i had a sick day of dirt jumping
today.

Originally Posted by LyNx

Um, I dunno could be that most flash content is un-necessary, adds nothing to the site and can be done in HTML for a much faster loading page - especially helpful for us "third worlders" who don't have T1, ADSL or some other high speed connection and have to suffer on dial-up. O rmaybe just because of the fact stated above that most of it is just utter rubbish designed in WYSIWYG editors by people who don't know WTF they are doing and adds absolutely nothing to the users experience I'm sort of strange that way, you know

BTW your site uses flash because?

[collideous]

Originally Posted by bcd

why would you not use flash again?

Really off topic: A statement written in HTML saying that Flash (and JavaScript) is required to view the site might be a good thing to do. Just place such a sentence in your "flashcontent" DIV. For anyone browsing the WWW without Flash, your site could otherwise be mistaken for a site "under construction" without the construction sign. Everything my browser fetches for instance runs through Proxomitron. Like all the ads here on MTBR my Proxy deleted your Flash content resulting in a very white page.

[LyNx]

......see post above mine for a little sound and friendly advice. You really shouldn't get so offended just because you built the site and thought you di a fantastic job .

Originally Posted by bcd

when was the last time you were on your bike? i had a sick day of dirt jumping
today.

Oh and to try to keep this bike related I'll answer your question..it was Sunday afternoon, with my bro and it was anice relaxed 10-11 mile ride that got him back on the bike and some exercise. I'm glad it was easy as my knee was doing some stuff from the ride the day before and the fall I had - it was a great ride!

[bcd]

this is why i hate MTBR. VIVA RIDEMONKEY!

Originally Posted by LyNx

......see post above mine for a little sound and friendly advice. You really shouldn't get so offended just because you built the site and thought you di a fantastic job .


Oh and to try to keep this bike related I'll answer your question..it was Sunday afternoon, with my bro and it was anice relaxed 10-11 mile ride that got him back on the bike and some exercise. I'm glad it was easy as my knee was doing some stuff from the ride the day before and the fall I had - it was a great ride!

[willapajames]

Originally Posted by EkoMan

... I have yet to witness anything that a 29" wheeled bike can't do as good if not better than a similar 26" wheeled bike under the proper rider.

Jason
aka rossixc

Someone make me a 29er trials bike and I'll show you such a situation.

[CharacterZero]

The pictures in this thread are waaay too cool to get thread jacked by some flash vs. html dork off.
Cool it - a polite comment would have been more effective.
Don't make me sick the fisherman on you.

[bcd]

Originally Posted by CharacterZero

The pictures in this thread are waaay too cool to get thread jacked by some flash vs. html dork off.
Cool it - a polite comment would have been more effective.
Don't make me sick the fisherman on you.

i wish someone over here would delete those posts.

what kind of show do you guys run over here...........

[Davidcopperfield]

Behemoth apparition&form tells us that it is much more travel ready like 180mm travel. Do/does WB work on something like 180mm dual crown? Long T Behemoth wiuld be great FR frame.