Anti Sq.. What???

[Saar G7]

Look what I got to play with in the next week or so...

I was looking for a Trail/AM bike that would be ~30 pounds and with a suspension that would allow me to stand up and sprint when I wanted, without bobing!

I swaped bikes with a friend that has a DW 5 Spot for short ride a couple of months ago and was very impressed.
I really wanted to do a head to head comparison between those two.

I picked up the 5spot today straight off the shop stand, it is a freshly built demo bike.
It's a size M with a 150 TALAS RLC 150mm, XTR shifters, XT derailers, 819's on Hadleys, SLX cranks and Magura luise brakes, weighing 31 pounds.

So far got only a parking lot test ride comparison between the two.
The spot feels much lighter than the actual 3 pounds difference.
They both pedal very well in high gear and lower cadence, however, they both bob when you spin the pedals fast while standing up and sprinting. The 5spot bobs a little but it feels much less than the actual travel consumed by the movement.
The 6pack bobs more but it feels much more than the actual travel consumed by the movement.

The bobbing pattern is very different, the 6pack will start sinking into its travel only when the leading crank arm is between 5 and 6 o'clock position. It would get to 45% travel when vertical at 6 o'clock, this is creating a sharp squat that is robbing all the momentum the rider has to carry to the next pedal stroke. The next pedal stroke expands the suspension back to its original position on it's way from 12 to 2 o'clock position and so on.

The 5spot will start sinking into its travel much earlier, already when the leading crank arm is around 3 o'clock position. It would get to approx. 25% travel when vertical at 6 o'clock allowing the momentum to be carried on to the next pedal stroke. So the bobing amplitude is smaller and much smoother.

Makes a world of difference in how it feels!

With the propedal on, they both sprint very nicely, however the difference between the 36 and the 32 is noticable with regards to plushness and bobing...

Tomorrow morning the 5spot is going on it's maiden voyage, a quick spin around local singletracks before work.

Real life testing.

I will post some more when I get some milage on the new toy

[Saar G7]

I have been riding the Spot for 2 days now.
The bike's geometry is amazing, the first thing I noticed was that unless it is a realy steep descent, there was no need for me to adjust the seatpost hight, and I usualy change it alot during my rides.
I did some 4X4 roads and some technical singletracks.
The BB felt lower than I expected and while pedaling out of the saddle I could still feel some bob in the suspension. When I realized I was getting almost full travel where there was no reason for that, I just added 20 psi more to the rear shock and suddenly everything was fine, pedaling eficiency improved immensly while the bike was riding higher in it's travel and the suspension felt progressive but still compliant.

Despite the inevitable small amount of bob in the suspension while standing and pedaling, every little bit of energy put into the suspension is translated to forward movement, swapped bikes with a friend and spent the next 300 meters chasing him in order to swap back, The suspension on his bike felt like it's entire purpose was to absorb energy spent by the rider on pedaling. I think tose 300 meters were the most challenging during that ride.

The bike feels much lighter than it's 31 pounds when cilimbing technical stuff, out of the saddle or seated. The bike carries speed like no bike I rode before.
I have ridden it mostly in it's 110mm setting(TALAS RLC 2010). The 150 mm setting feels very slack and confidence inspiring in steep technical descents but is not very comfortable for technical climbing.

The bike feels very solid and very capable and did not show any weaknes when hitting some 5 ft drops to tranny on the way. the suspension is doing it's job without making you notice that and to a good degree of perfection.

I love my 6-Pack and could not find a better bike to replace it.
As I am less and less into FR and big drops and more into fast technical singletracks,
I was looking for a slack (67) HA, low (13) BB 5" trail/AM bike as I believed it would give me the desired ride characteristics and behavior.

The Spot made me realize that I was looking the wrong direction.
For one, the 13.5" BB on the Spot was probably as low as I would like to have on an AM bike.
I found myself riding the bike in the shortest fork travel setting most of the time, opened it fully on a few steep descents and thought that the optimal setting would be somewhere between 125-140 mm. And that is with a 68.6 HA at 140mm to begin with...

Great execution by DT and DW to create the best bike I rode to date.

[GreenBonty]

Saar, thanks for the report. Did you think the TALAS 150RLC was a good match for the frame?(stiff enough?)
Where/how can I demo this bike?.

[Saar G7]

It has a 15mm axle, so it is stiffer than I expected from a 32mm fork.
It is not as stiff as my Fox 36 (float) but it is not far from it.
For a Trail / AM bike this fork is stiff enough if you ask me.

Call Pedalim and they would gladly fix you with a demo bike.

[tald]

Saar these posts as just what the Dr ordered. Thanks for the very very relevant info!!

[Saar G7]

Tal,
If you are into buying a frame, let me know.
We are going for a group purchase and if you want to, you can join.

Saar

[wilks]

I cant imagine primarily riding the fork at 110mm would be my cup of tea - that must give a nitrous style head angle - when I demoed the DW Spot I thought it climbed up steep, loose, techy stuff really well with a 32 Float at 140mm - and I thought a 150mm fork would be an even better compromise between climbing and descending. Your review is sort of conflicted to me - you prefer the fork at 110mm mostly but you are doing 5 footers also.

[tald]

Saar - thanks and definitely interesting!! PM sent .

Wilks - nothing really conflicting - do a search and you'll see the crazy 10 foot plus drops this dude has done with quick release forks .

[wilks]

I don't doubt Saar's ability to hit big stuff - just surprised that he preferred the fork o the steep side for regular singletrack riding.

[Saar G7]

First of all, just a little bit of my background and what I am riding now.
I got a 6-Pack dressed up for AM\FR duties and a singlespeed rigid for XC\Trail use.
I really like slack HA and stiff forks, but that is for my AM/FR technical stuff.
Lately I found myself enjoying riding some technical stuff on my singlespeed.
It has been a while since I realized that there is no need for more than 4-5" of travel to handle most of what I do on one bike, it just keeps things interesting when the going gets rough.

Anyway, when travel is not an issue, geometry becomes a key factor.
If you look at the picture of the Spot, you will see that it has a lot of spacers underneath the stem. As those are my first few rides on the bike, I did not change it till I get the feel for the bike. So at 150mm it feels like a DH rig, but at 110 the cockpit feels good.
If I drop the stem 20mm down, the 130mm setting would feel as it should!

So your observation is right and I was thinking about this since my last ride.
I am lowering the stem 20mm now and will check my theory soon.

Here is a little picture of the singlespeed rigid at the end of the "Darkness" trail in Meirav

[wilks]

Makes sense! I will be riding a DW 5 Spot tomorrow with a 36 Float RC2 spaced down to 150mm and I think I have one 5mm spacer under the stem. I am interested to see how it climbs the loose, steep, rocky but short climbs we have around here.

[starre]

Saar G7- did anybody get a dw sultan in israel? any comparison to longer travel bikes like the nomad? thanx

[jgusta]

Good review and comparison of the Pack with the DW Spot, Saar! I have been on a Pack for 3.5yrs now as my "do all", AM/lite FR/DH rig with all coil and heavy'ish parts and plan to upgrade to a new ride this year as finally, fully permitted by the wifey. I am tenatively planning on holding out for the DW-RFX, especially since my old'ish Turner has been so good to me handling anything from trail days with lots of climbing to lite DH/FR on a 36lb build.

But, curious what kind of leverage ratio DT plans to use on the upcoming RFX? Do you know what the DW-Spot leverage ratio is, 2.7:1? I would strongly consider the new Spot as my do all trail/AM bike, but I like <67 deg HA and at least 6" travel for the descents due to favoring a nice compliant, cushy ride. I am strongly interested in a mini-DH bike that climbs farily well for what it is, as needed and can handle trail duties too. Is it the new RFX? Orange Alpine 160? Evil Division? Knolly Delirium T? Cove G-Spot (10')? Too many good choices coming out this year, making it harder and harder for the avid rider to decide.

[Saar G7]

So it is time to return the demo bike to the store..

On a last attempt to find a cost effective solution to the "problem"
I called a friend who owns a 2008 MK3 and asked him to join me on a ride.
I thought I would do a head to head comparison of the bikes as the setup is almost identical in terms of parts.

Just to note that 2 critical componenets were different, the bars were 640 and not my 710 wide bars, the rear shock was FLOAT R with the lowest internal setting of propedal, regular volume.

Bottom line:

Geometry of the bikes is close but the Spot felt a bit longer.
Rear suspension feels similar on smooth single track - the MK3 pedals as well as the Spot, the antisquat is superb.

HOWEVER,

The Spot suspension is much more active and supple than the MK3, the rear wheel is glued to the ground and the traction is fenomenal. The MK3 felt a bit harsh and XC like with a very distinct ramp up at the end of the travel, it seems like the bike would benefit from a HV shock. The spot feels agile and lively compared to the MK3 and the ride was much smoother.
Although the MK3 was improved on 2007 and the build quality is not bad, there is no comparison when it comes to build quality and frame stiffness.

No shortcuts for me this time...

Picking color is the worst part now.

How about this one?

[Saar G7]

A small sangria 5 spot was ordered today.

Two friends of mine have ordered 5 spot frames today, I think it is contaigious !

[wheatgerm]

Congrats on your purchase! Be sure to post some fotos when you get'er.

[starre]

who did you order it through? how much more than the USA price? thanx!

Originally Posted by Saar G7

A small sangria 5 spot was ordered today.

Two friends of mine have ordered 5 spot frames today, I think it is contaigious !

[_dw]

It's cool when science can make you happier!

[Saar G7]

starre,

The bike was ordered through a local shop.
Price is always up for negotiation and some times comes very close to the US price.