A Question About Tapered Head Set and Tube Systems.

[Ronnie]

I've ordered a new long travel (5.5") frame which has a tapered headtube. The intention is to use a 140mm. fork with a tapered steerer tube.

I've been doing a bit of research on the Cane Creek and Chris King websites. They both seem to say that the only options for a tapered steerer tube is to use a traditional external 1.5" bottom bearing cup. The King bottom stack height is almost 15mm. and the Cane Creek 110 bottom stack is almost 12mm.

Looking at pictures of the Niner RIP and WFO, I see that there is "zero" stack height and I believe that their OEM forks have tapered steerers. What headset do they use? I tried to find out from the Niner site but couldn't find any information. Because of the long fork I would like to keep the stack height as low as possible.

Ronnie.

[bikenut316]

Originally Posted by Ronnie

I've ordered a new long travel (5.5") frame which has a tapered headtube. The intention is to use a 140mm. fork with a tapered steerer tube.

I've been doing a bit of research on the Cane Creek and Chris King websites. They both seem to say that the only options for a tapered steerer tube is to use a traditional external 1.5" bottom bearing cup. The King bottom stack height is almost 15mm. and the Cane Creek 110 bottom stack is almost 12mm.

Looking at pictures of the Niner RIP and WFO, I see that there is "zero" stack height and and I believe that their OEM forks have tapered steerers. What headset do they use? I tried to find out from the Niner site but couldn't find any information. Because of the long fork I would like to keep the stack height as low as possible.

Ronnie.

Niner uses a FSA headset.

[Ronnie]

Originally Posted by bikenut316

Niner uses a FSA headset.

Okay .... so I should go to the LBS and ask them to order me a FSA headset!

Ronnie.

[Vortechcoupe]

the headsets you mentioned are for a standard head tube. you need an internal headset with an oversized lower bearing, look on fsa site or cane creek. i'm not sure if the king in-set will work

[meltingfeather]

Originally Posted by Ronnie

I've been doing a bit of research on the Cane Creek and Chris King websites. They both seem to say that the only options for a tapered steerer tube is to use a traditional external 1.5" bottom bearing cup. The King bottom stack height is almost 15mm. and the Cane Creek 110 bottom stack is almost 12mm.

Looking at pictures of the Niner RIP and WFO, I see that there is "zero" stack height and I believe that their OEM forks have tapered steerers. What headset do they use? I tried to find out from the Niner site but couldn't find any information. Because of the long fork I would like to keep the stack height as low as possible.

Ronnie.

do a bit more research... and try to be more thorough. cane creek's website's "tapered" section says "coming soon" and the "traditional 1.5"" headset section includes the xx flush with a 3.2mm lower stack height. chris king's website shows that the inset has a lower stack height of <6mm. based on that, it's hard to tell what you possibly could have looked at that led you to your erroneous conclusion, assuming you spent more than about 15 seconds trying to cover your bases.
niners with tapered head tubes use an OEM FSA headset that comes with the frames. it's not a model you can order from FSA, so if you were being sarcastic in your response to the poster that answered your question, you need to do more and better research to figure things out. if you're going to order it from your LBS, why not ask them? at least then whatever answer they give you they'll be responsible for.

[Ronnie]

Originally Posted by meltingfeather

do a bit more research... and try to be more thorough. cane creek's website's "tapered" section says "coming soon" and the "traditional 1.5"" headset section includes the xx flush with a 3.2mm lower stack height. chris king's website shows that the inset has a lower stack height of <6mm. based on that, it's hard to tell what you possibly could have looked at that led you to your erroneous conclusion, assuming you spent more than about 15 seconds trying to cover your bases.
niners with tapered head tubes use an OEM FSA headset that comes with the frames. it's not a model you can order from FSA, so if you were being sarcastic in your response to the poster that answered your question, you need to do more and better research to figure things out. if you're going to order it from your LBS, why not ask them? at least then whatever answer they give you they'll be responsible for.

Oh really! I should be more through! Let us examine your brilliant and well researched post. My original question said I want to use a tapered steerer in a tapered head tube.

A fork with a tapered steerer tube has a 1.5" bottom diameter and a 1⅛" top. The Cane Creek XX headset you have linked with a 3.2mm. stack height is meant for a 1.5 head tube to take a 1⅛" steerer tube. not a 1.5". In fact I used one of those years ago to fit a Fox fork onto a Cannondale.

Likewise the Chris King Inset you linked has a table on the right hand side of the page. The less than 6mm. stack height you mention is for a tapered head tube wiith a 1⅛" steerer. Are you following me. Listen carefully. Take a look at the right column. It says next to "steer tube OD", 1-1/8” to 1.5” tapered. Now next to "lower stack height" it says, 14.8 mm. Below is a picture of their recommendation. Looks like a lot more than 6mm. to me.

So whose conclusions are erroneous? I'm quite willing to admit when I'm wrong but this isn't one of those times. You just don't know what you are talking about.

Oh and by the way, before I posted I was on the phone to both Chris King and Cane Creek and they both told me that I'd have to use their 1.5" bottom cups for a tapered steerer. I know that the OEM Marzocchi that Niner is using has a tapered steerer tube and I wanted to know what headset they are using. It may be OEM to Niner but I'm sure it is available to after market. After all Fox and Rock Shox also make tapered steerers. But I will call them to confirm.

Ronnie.

[meltingfeather]

Originally Posted by Ronnie

Oh really! I should be more through! Let us examine your brilliant and well researched post. My original question said I want to use a tapered steerer in a tapered head tube.

A fork with a tapered steerer tube has a 1.5" bottom diameter and a 1⅛" top. The Cane Creek XX headset you have linked with a 3.2mm. stack height is meant for a 1.5 head tube to take a 1⅛" steerer tube. not a 1.5". In fact I used one of those years ago to fit a Fox fork onto a Cannondale.

Likewise the Chris King Inset you linked has a table on the right hand side of the page. The less than 6mm. stack height you mention is for a tapered head tube wiith a 1⅛" steerer. Are you following me. Listen carefully. Take a look at the right column. It says next to "steer tube OD", 1-1/8” to 1.5” tapered. Now next to "lower stack height" it says, 14.8 mm. Below is a picture of their recommendation. Looks a like a lot more than 6mm. to me.

So whose conclusions are erroneous? I'm quite willing to admit when I'm wrong but this isn't one of those times. You just don't know what you are talking about.

Oh and by the way, before I posted I was on the phone to both Chris King and Cane Creek and they both told me that I'd have to use their 1.5" bottom cups for a tapered steerer. I know that the OEM Marzocchi that Niner is using has a tapered steerer tube and I wanted to know what headset they are using. It may be OEM to Niner but I'm sure it is available to after market. After all Fox and Rock Shox also make tapered steerers. But I will call them to confirm.

Ronnie.

your'e right... i ****ed up... sorry. i glanced quickly and didn't catch the finer points. i too am willing to admit when i'm wrong, and i was in this case.
all of the niners i've seen (which do not include your WFO) use the fox tapered fork, which is an only OEM and only niner deal right now... you can find the odd one aftermarket, but it's not easy. likewise with the headsets. FSA is making them for niner, shipping them only with niner bikes, and everyone with a niner tapered head tube probably uses the headset that comes with the bike, so not many extras to be had. why isn't your WFO coming with a headset like all the other niner framesets?

[Ronnie]

Originally Posted by meltingfeather

your'e right... i ****ed up... sorry. i glanced quickly and didn't catch the finer points. i too am willing to admit when i'm wrong, and i was in this case.
all of the niners i've seen (which do not include your WFO) use the fox tapered fork, which is an only OEM and only niner deal right now... you can find the odd one aftermarket, but it's not easy. likewise with the headsets. FSA is making them for niner, shipping them only with niner bikes, and everyone with a niner tapered head tube probably uses the headset that comes with the bike, so not many extras to be had. why isn't your WFO coming with a headset like all the other niner framesets?

That's cool. Truce! I just got a bit hot under the collar as I've spent half the day researching it.

I never said it was a Niner WFO. I said it was a 5.5" travel bike. In fact I've ordered an Intense Tracer 29. It's not due for the next few months so I don't have the exact headtube spec. yet. Cane Creek said they may be able to help if I get the measurements. All I know is that it will have a tapered head tube.

Ronnie.

[shiggy]

Originally Posted by Ronnie

I've ordered a new long travel (5.5") frame which has a tapered headtube. The intention is to use a 140mm. fork with a tapered steerer tube.

I've been doing a bit of research on the Cane Creek and Chris King websites. They both seem to say that the only options for a tapered steerer tube is to use a traditional external 1.5" bottom bearing cup. The King bottom stack height is almost 15mm. and the Cane Creek 110 bottom stack is almost 12mm.

Looking at pictures of the Niner RIP and WFO, I see that there is "zero" stack height and I believe that their OEM forks have tapered steerers. What headset do they use? I tried to find out from the Niner site but couldn't find any information. Because of the long fork I would like to keep the stack height as low as possible.

Ronnie.

Cane Creek has what you need even though it is not yet on their site. You can use their "fit-finder" now: http://canecreek.com/headset-fit-finder

[FoShizzle]

Originally Posted by Ronnie

That's cool. Truce! I just got a bit hot under the collar as I've spent half the day researching it.

I never said it was a Niner WFO. I said it was a 5.5" travel bike. In fact I've ordered an Intense Tracer 29. It's not due for the next few months so I don't have the exact headtube spec. yet. Cane Creek said they may be able to help if I get the measurements. All I know is that it will have a tapered head tube.

Ronnie.

Nice Ronnie!

Yes, the various, but few options, did drive me bonkers too.

[Ronnie]

Originally Posted by FoShizzle

Nice Ronnie!

Yes, the various, but few options, did drive me bonkers too.

I saw in a recent "Should I buy a King headset" thread that you ordered the King tapered headset pictured above. Did you get it yet? If I get a 140mm. fork I'd prefer to use an integrated headset to keep the front down a bit. Another option I've considered is a Fox 120mm. with the King's ± 15mm. stack height. The back can also be run at 5". Damn, it's tough being a pioneer!

Ronnie.

[BraveSirrobin21]

Checking Dealer Website
FSA 57 Orbits, E2 1-1/8"-1-1/2", semi-integrated, cartridge bearings
This is the headset that comes in Gary Fisher Hifi's with tapered headsets

FSA NO.57E, E-2 , ACB sealed bearings
The headset that comes on fuels I am 99% sure they are identical just different names.

From there I checked what Dexter (treks dealer page) Had for head sets I found this headset. http://store.canecreek.com/products/...69.56213.0.0.0

hope this helps

[Vortechcoupe]

Originally Posted by Ronnie

I saw in a recent "Should I buy a King headset" thread that you ordered the King tapered headset pictured above. Did you get it yet? If I get a 140mm. fork I'd prefer to use an integrated headset to keep the front down a bit. Another option I've considered is a Fox 120mm. with the King's ± 15mm. stack height. The back can also be run at 5". Damn, it's tough being a pioneer!

Ronnie.

the above pictured king headset is a external headset setup. THIS IS NOT WHAT YOU WANT!!! at least not for the above intense (or niner). you can't use a external style headset on that intense!!

[Ronnie]

Originally Posted by Vortechcoupe

the above pictured king headset is a external headset setup. THIS IS NOT WHAT YOU WANT!!! at least not for the above intense (or niner). you can't use a external style headset on that intense!!

It is not what I want if I want to keep the stack height low but pray do tell! Why exactly can I not use an external headset?

Ronnie.

[Ronnie]

Originally Posted by BraveSirrobin21

Checking Dealer Website
FSA 57 Orbits, E2 1-1/8"-1-1/2", semi-integrated, cartridge bearings
This is the headset that comes in Gary Fisher Hifi's with tapered headsets

FSA NO.57E, E-2 , ACB sealed bearings
The headset that comes on fuels I am 99% sure they are identical just different names.

From there I checked what Dexter (treks dealer page) Had for head sets I found this headset. http://store.canecreek.com/products/...69.56213.0.0.0

hope this helps

Thanks for that. The Cane Creek Frustum ZS looks interesting. I wonder why they don't list it under the product line on the regular website. It appears to only be on the Store. At least I didn't find it. I guess the durability will not be as good as a 110 but if I want the low stack I'll have to compromise.

Ronnie.

[Vortechcoupe]

Originally Posted by Ronnie

It is not what I want if I want to keep the stack height low but pray do tell! Why exactly can I not use an external headset?

Ronnie.

because the headtubes are made different!! standard or external headtubes are basically straight tubes that you press the cups into. on most internal headset style head tubes the head tubes has a machined surface the the upper and lower bearing set into.

here is a pic, albeit not the headset you would be using, of a intergraded headset. see how the bearings (were the writing is) would sit into the frames headtube

http://www.canecreek.com/component-h...C&product=IS-3

[mikesee]

Just a thought, from someone with a 150mm bike and an Inset ("to keep the front end low"):

You'd have to be 5'2" *or* want a mutant riding position to really need the extra ~10mm of 'drop' that a low stack HS is gonna give you. I went ahead and tried this exact theory on my latest LunchBox (tapered steerer, geo designed around a 165mm fork, Inset) to see what the result would be.

The result?

I need 6mm of spacers, a 12* rise stem, and a 1" rise bar to get the bars even close to high enough. A 2" rise bar would probably be better.

Not suggesting that we're all the same or that what you're pursuing is in any way 'wrong', just that the 'bars need to be lower' thing is pretty overplayed and often misses the mark.

Best,

MC

[syl3]

Originally Posted by Vortechcoupe

because the headtubes are made different!! standard or external headtubes are basically straight tubes that you press the cups into. on most internal headset style head tubes the head tubes has a machined surface the the upper and lower bearing set into.

here is a pic, albeit not the headset you would be using, of a intergraded headset. see how the bearings (were the writing is) would sit into the frames headtube

http://www.canecreek.com/component-h...C&product=IS-3

you are wrong.

IS means integrated. bearings sit directly in contact with the head tube. this is for road bikes only.

ZS means zero stack. it is also called internal headset or semi-integrated. it still has cups, but they are pressed in all the way except for a nearly invisible narrow lip. bearings sit inside the cup just like a regular headset.

[FoShizzle]

Originally Posted by syl3

you are wrong.

IS means integrated. bearings sit directly in contact with the head tube. this is for road bikes only.

ZS means zero stack. it is also called internal headset or semi-integrated. it still has cups, but they are pressed in all the way except for a nearly invisible narrow lip. bearings sit inside the cup just like a regular headset.

yep

i personally dont like the look of the semi-integrated unless the crown on the forks are manly, which they are not on most tapered forks. on my straight 1.5" headtube which ran a massive crown fork it coulda looked cool but even there i opted for external instead.

[syl3]

Originally Posted by Ronnie

It is not what I want if I want to keep the stack height low but pray do tell! Why exactly can I not use an external headset?

Ronnie.

He is right that in frames designed for an internal headset you cannot use an external headset, although not for the reasons he cited. You must use the headset that fits the head tube.

Let's take conventional 1 1/8 forks, the steerer column is 28.6 mm. The external headset has a 30mm inside diameter of the crown race and 34 mm outer diameter of the cups. It does not fit in a frame designed for a Zero Stack headset. The headtube must accomodate the steerer, the cup and the bearing, so it is larger: outer diameter 50mm, inner diameter 44mm.

Now, a non-tapered 1.5 fork has a 38.1mm steerer. For a standard headset, the crown race inside diameter is 39.8mm and the cup outside diameter is 49.6mm. Just like the 1.1/8 headsets, OnePointFive internal headsets use a larger head tube, with an inner diameter of 56mm intead of 50, and an outer diameter of 62mm.

With tapered forks, the headset will have a 1.1/8 top and a 1.5 bottom, but they must both fit the standard the headtube was designed around not only regarding the diameter but also cup insertion depth and possibly other fractors.


All the info you need on headset standards is here: http://www.canecreek.com/manuals/Hea...ationGuide.pdf

[syl3]

Originally Posted by Ronnie

I've ordered a new long travel (5.5") frame which has a tapered headtube. The intention is to use a 140mm. fork with a tapered steerer tube.

I've been doing a bit of research on the Cane Creek and Chris King websites. They both seem to say that the only options for a tapered steerer tube is to use a traditional external 1.5" bottom bearing cup.

Take a look at the table on the chris king InSet page and you will see that the InSet can come with an external or an internal lower cup:
http://chrisking.com/headsets/hds_inset

They are not the same size, so make sure your frame is built accordingly.

[Ronnie]

Originally Posted by mikesee

Just a thought, from someone with a 150mm bike and an Inset ("to keep the front end low"):

You'd have to be 5'2" *or* want a mutant riding position to really need the extra ~10mm of 'drop' that a low stack HS is gonna give you. I went ahead and tried this exact theory on my latest LunchBox (tapered steerer, geo designed around a 165mm fork, Inset) to see what the result would be.

The result?

I need 6mm of spacers, a 12* rise stem, and a 1" rise bar to get the bars even close to high enough. A 2" rise bar would probably be better.

Not suggesting that we're all the same or that what you're pursuing is in any way 'wrong', just that the 'bars need to be lower' thing is pretty overplayed and often misses the mark.

Best,

MC

Mike, you may be right but my concern was not the top stack height. I noticed on the Intense prototype pictured above that they used an integrated lower bearing with the 140mm. fork. I assumed to limit the front of the frame from being lifted too much with longer travel forks. The axle to crown on these 29" forks is starting to get up there. I've also noted that Niner are doing the same with longer travel bikes. It is obvious that a traditional headset is more durable and a better engineering solution so why are the manufacturers using integrated headsets? Keep in mind that I want to build the bike more for trail/AM than the aggressive type of riding you do.

Ronnie.

[syl3]

Originally Posted by Ronnie

Mike, you may be right but my concern was not the top stack height. I noticed on the Intense prototype pictured above that they used an integrated lower bearing with the 140mm. fork. I assumed to limit the front of the frame from being lifted too much with longer travel forks. The axle to crown on these 29" forks is starting to get up there. I've also noted that Niner are doing the same with longer travel bikes. It is obvious that a traditional headset is more durable and a better engineering solution so why are the manufacturers using integrated headsets?

They are using INTERNAL headsets. (i.e. ck inset, cane creek zs, fsa orbit z) - also called semi-integrated, zero-stack etc.

INTEGRATED headsets (i.e. cane creek IS ) have not been used in mtb's for a long time.

BTW Chris King have stated that they will never produce an integrated headset and wrote a long rant about it.

[Ronnie]

Originally Posted by syl3

Take a look at the table on the chris king InSet page and you will see that the InSet can come with an external or an internal lower cup:
http://chrisking.com/headsets/hds_inset

They are not the same size, so make sure your frame is built accordingly.

I have looked at that table repeatedly. What it says to me is that if I use a tapered steerer tube it has to be an external bearing with a stack height of 14.8mm.

Ronnie.

[syl3]

Maybe you should look in the middle column where it says tapered instead of mixed tapered.

Anyway, as i explained above, you won't have a choice between the 2 due to cup size differences. So you'll have to shop according to whatever headtube Intense decides to put on your bike. Maybe until your frame is done you'll get to read my longer post above, the one with a lot of numbers.

[Ronnie]

Originally Posted by syl3

Maybe you should look in the middle column where it says tapered instead of mixed tapered.

That is not correct. The middle column says that you are using a 1⅛" steerer tube OD (no taper) in a tapered head tube. The right column says 1⅛" to 1.5" tapered steerer tube OD in a tapered head tube.

Ronnie.

[Vortechcoupe]

so on the new rips and this intense you press in the bearing cups? and therefore you can run that brown/tan king head set a couple post up??

I thought the new rips had the cups machined into the head tube, like a road bike, or at least similar.

but the main point i was trying to make was that the king headset in the above pic will not work, am i wrong about that? if so thanks for showing me the light.

[syl3]

I guess you're stuck with Cane Creek if you don't want to go through the trouble of finding out if you can use that InSet bottom reducer cup on a tapered fork by pressing another bearing into it.

Where you gonna get a 140mm tapered fork anyway? I thought the Marzos were OEM only... Fox and Reba don't go over 120... Does WB do a tapered fork?

[syl3]

Take a look at this pic:



i think it's worth shooting an email to a store that has this in stock to measure the cups.

The hole on that lower cup looks a lot bigger than it should be, that table could be wrong...
They might have copied the data from the left column instead of the right in some of the cells.

If that table is right, the lower cup of the one on the left should have a lot smaller inner diameter, similar to the one on the right.
56mm OD and 30mm hole means the hole diameter should be around half of the total diameter, but clearly it's bigger:

[bpierro]

The Niner Rip and WFO uses an integrated headset. They are Angular Contact Bearings that drop into the headtube. An FSA model comes with them (C-40) and they are available aftermarket now. The only options for forks over 120mm, as of right now, are the Marzocchi and White Brothers models.. unless you are going to count the Dorado I guess. Fox and Rock Shox make 120mm taper steerer forks available now.

You should just check with the company that is making your frame about what headset is needed for that frame.

[FoShizzle]

Originally Posted by mikesee

You'd have to be 5'2" *or* want a mutant riding position to really need the extra ~10mm of 'drop' that a low stack HS is gonna give you.

please dont take this personal, but i agree with you

[FoShizzle]

Originally Posted by Ronnie

I saw in a recent "Should I buy a King headset" thread that you ordered the King tapered headset pictured above. Did you get it yet? If I get a 140mm. fork I'd prefer to use an integrated headset to keep the front down a bit. Another option I've considered is a Fox 120mm. with the King's ± 15mm. stack height. The back can also be run at 5". Damn, it's tough being a pioneer!

Ronnie.

Hey Ronnie...I am still trying to get my head around all these moving parts related to tapered, but...

I opted, in consultation with King and at Lynskey's recommendation, to go with mixed, with Inset top and external lower 1.5. King also noted that for "AM" type riding, to the extent possible, external lower would also be better as it will be more robust which to me makes a lot of sense.

[The_Boy]

Originally Posted by bpierro

You should just check with the company that is making your frame about what headset is needed for that frame.

Best advice on this thread.

[Ronnie]

Originally Posted by FoShizzle

Hey Ronnie...I am still trying to get my head around all these moving parts related to tapered, but...

I opted, in consultation with King and at Lynskey's recommendation, to go with mixed, with Inset top and external lower 1.5. King also noted that for "AM" type riding, to the extent possible, external lower would also be better as it will be more robust which to me makes a lot of sense.

I'm probably getting ahead (no pun intended) of myself with this whole thing. I don't even know if Intense has finalised the spec. on the headtube yet. I'll have to find out and get the numbers. I'm trying to get the bits together as much as I can. But yes, the most sound choice would be a external 1.5" lower. I've had a King on my 5point5 for almost six years now, it's been great but I think I want to try a Cane Creek 110 if it works.

Ronnie.

[FoShizzle]

Originally Posted by Ronnie

I'm probably getting ahead (no pun intended) of myself with this whole thing. I don't even know if Intense has finalised the spec. on the headtube yet. I'll have to find out and get the numbers. I'm trying to get the bits together as much as I can. But yes, the most sound choice would be a external 1.5" lower. I've had a King on my 5point5 for almost six years now, it's been great but I think I want to try a Cane Creek 110 if it works.

Ronnie.

indeed...i too dont know if there is a "required" headset for that bike but if not, i think the mixed is the way to go. keep us posted...as i am sure you will

[BruceBrown]

Originally Posted by bpierro

You should just check with the company that is making your frame about what headset is needed for that frame.

Nah, that'd be too fuggin' e-Z.

Then again, on their website they list no specs yet for the Tracer 29 and just say "Specification Info Coming!". I would still call or email to lay this dead horse to rest in terms of what headset it will require.

BB