I have logged a lot of hours on a couple of true Horst Link bikes and I have sampled most of the 29er DW/VPP/CVA. yada, yada, etc, stuff out there.
I have never ridden a HL bike that did not need ProPedal to work well without the dreaded bob effect. Furthermore, everyone I have owned had the tendency to squat in the rear when climbing something in the saddle that was very steep. That sucks, so ProPedal is needed there too.
But, I do like the way the HL bikes work in most other ways. In fact, I have been pretty darn impressed with the Brain Shock and how it turns a HL bike (the Specy Stumpy and Epic) into a really great climbing, stable feeling bike with no squat or bob.
SO, for me, the new gen of bikes that you mentioned as options promise one important thing...no need for ProPedal. I am not sure they always deliver, but it is something to shoot for. Otherwise, my impressions of the DW/VPP/CVA stuff has been a mixed bag. Some good, some bad.
The DW is like having a Specialized Horst Link equipped with a silent, transparent brain. Plus, as mentioned above, it rides higher in its travel when climbing steep stuff.
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The drive towards achievement and success is the motive power of civilization.
having both a mach 5 and now the 429- one of the most outstanding features is how the terrain disappears without effecting the rider, be it going up or down. One of the more interesting things is if I look down while pedaling I can see the link actively working but I can't sense it without looking. I have used it with propedal and without with only very minor change is the feel of the bike.Perhaps its how I have my 429er set up, but it feels like it works better and rides more traditionally than my older mach 5 did(which rode higher in the travel) I will say I haven't ridden the latest crop of vpp's- so I can't compare....but when you have suspension of the likes DW's I think it must be at the top of the food chain and certainly satisfies my needs to the top of the hill to the bottom.
.... and certainly satisfies my needs to the top of the hill to the bottom.
AH, that, for me is the holy grail that the DW type stuff promises: Working from the bottom to the top to the bottom again without flippy levers. My current FS ride, a Lenz Lev, works really well if the PP is on for 90% of what I ride here, and then with PP off, it covers the rest....but, I have long climbs punctuated by long descents, sometimes rough, and rocky singletrack. I can get away with reaching down and flipping a lever. If I lived where there were quick ups and downs, lots of rolling, techy hills...man, I would be sooo on a DW/VPP/CVA bike.
i think so. it my favoritest for sure both in terms of climbing and descending, with the exception of MAYBE standing climbing where perhaps (my last ride suggested differently however so my impressions may be changing) the DW does not like too much forward weight bias (as occurs when standing climbing)
yes it was better then horst or yes it is hype,iam riding rx26er and rx29er.
Better than the horst equipped bikes I had ridden. Caveat- it was a 26'er to 26'er comparison. In the end, I went with a carbon 29'er hardtail though- matched my riding th best.
i think so. it my favoritest for sure both in terms of climbing and descending, with the exception of MAYBE standing climbing where perhaps (my last ride suggested differently however so my impressions may be changing) the DW does not like too much forward weight bias (as occurs when standing climbing)
agreed...I think the only suspension type that excels in the lean forward standing up is a High pivot--at least in terms of traction, certainly not the bob....where the chain torque pulls the wheel into the terrain.
The DW is like having a Specialized Horst Link equipped with a silent, transparent brain. Plus, as mentioned above, it rides higher in its travel when climbing steep stuff.
i saw the great pictures of your last trip with the sultan. i'm curious, does the dw link behave as well in granny gear as in the middle ring? thanx!
I find the DW link does a better job of getting the rear wheel to stick when I'm mashing hard out of the saddle compared to my older 4 bar (non-Horst) 29er. The suspension that stays active all the time with almost nonexistent bobbing is my favorite part. I found it to be such an improvement that I bought a DW Sultan after test riding one at Interbike last year even though I owned a bike I was happy with.
Having ridden many different suspensions, and liking best, one that you didn't mention, I'll stick to my opinions on the comparison in question.
I vastly prefer Horst to an multi linked uber nightmare that the latest crop of builders seem to be falling all over each other to copy.
What I found is that the DW/VPP etc bikes all seem to work great for a singular hit, think big drop. Any sort of stuttery bump situation, and they just lock up and pound you silly. Why this is better I have no idea, but this has been on several bikes, with varied tunings etc.
The new crop of riders seem to want tons of travel, and no small bump compliance, which I guess they equate with pedal bob, and "inefficiency". I manage to make any suspension work to my advantage, bob, or otherwise, so why would I want to isolate myself from it so much that it didn't work on most stuff?
My two cents, I know its not a popular view, but someone had to say it.
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"Speak softly and carry an armored tank division" - name withheld to protect the innocent
Having ridden many different suspensions, and liking best, one that you didn't mention, I'll stick to my opinions on the comparison in question.
I vastly prefer Horst to an multi linked uber nightmare that the latest crop of builders seem to be falling all over each other to copy.
What I found is that the DW/VPP etc bikes all seem to work great for a singular hit, think big drop. Any sort of stuttery bump situation, and they just lock up and pound you silly. Why this is better I have no idea, but this has been on several bikes, with varied tunings etc.
The new crop of riders seem to want tons of travel, and no small bump compliance, which I guess they equate with pedal bob, and "inefficiency". I manage to make any suspension work to my advantage, bob, or otherwise, so why would I want to isolate myself from it so much that it didn't work on most stuff?
My two cents, I know its not a popular view, but someone had to say it.
Ummm... Which DW link bikes have you ridden? How much time was taken to get it set up? Because my experience with the DW link Sultan has been the diametric opposite. The Jet 9 pedaled really well, but not nearly as compliant in the small stuff as the Sultan. Not sure if that's just due to the travel limitations of the Jet or the suspension design. I'm looking also forward to getting my Mach 429 built up to see where it falls in the continuum.
I do have to say that the Horst Link-equipped bike I rode this weekend worked well with a PUSH tuned shock.
Having ridden many different suspensions, and liking best, one that you didn't mention, I'll stick to my opinions on the comparison in question.
I vastly prefer Horst to an multi linked uber nightmare that the latest crop of builders seem to be falling all over each other to copy.
What I found is that the DW/VPP etc bikes all seem to work great for a singular hit, think big drop. Any sort of stuttery bump situation, and they just lock up and pound you silly. Why this is better I have no idea, but this has been on several bikes, with varied tunings etc.
The new crop of riders seem to want tons of travel, and no small bump compliance, which I guess they equate with pedal bob, and "inefficiency". I manage to make any suspension work to my advantage, bob, or otherwise, so why would I want to isolate myself from it so much that it didn't work on most stuff?
My two cents, I know its not a popular view, but someone had to say it.
I'd say the increased compression damping that is necessary on Horst link bikes + the axle-path has the opposite effect, it makes HL bikes harsher in the rough.
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"It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth
i think so. it my favoritest for sure both in terms of climbing and descending, with the exception of MAYBE standing climbing where perhaps (my last ride suggested differently however so my impressions may be changing) the DW does not like too much forward weight bias (as occurs when standing climbing)
Actually , I find my DW Sultan one of the better out of the saddle pedaling full suspension bikes that I've tried anyway .........4x4 ( horst link ) on my Knolly is pretty friggin nice as well but only comes as a 26 " wheeler ! I give the nod to DW for efficiency ! TIG.
agreed...I think the only suspension type that excels in the lean forward standing up is a High pivot--at least in terms of traction, certainly not the bob....where the chain torque pulls the wheel into the terrain.
The RX is a FSR/Horst Link. Something like the Astrix Monk would be considered a high single pivot, I think.
Having said that, I like the feeling of a well designed horst link and will put up with some of its short comings for the active feel both climbing, descending, and while braking. If designed well there is very little bob on seated pedaling and little need for propedal.
But.....The DW link on the Sultan is quite amazing IMO. It stays absolutely flat while pedaling, seated or standing in my experience, whereas the HL bikes I've ridden (and loved) will bob some on standing sprints. The DW link also stays nearly as active over rough terrain and while braking.
FWIW I was less impressed with Pivot's iteration of Dave Weagle's design. It is efficient but not as plush.
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Mmm... Adrenaline, sweat, and sardines. These tracks are fresh sir.
Having ridden many different suspensions, and liking best, one that you didn't mention, I'll stick to my opinions on the comparison in question.
I vastly prefer Horst to an multi linked uber nightmare that the latest crop of builders seem to be falling all over each other to copy.
What I found is that the DW/VPP etc bikes all seem to work great for a singular hit, think big drop. Any sort of stuttery bump situation, and they just lock up and pound you silly. Why this is better I have no idea, but this has been on several bikes, with varied tunings etc.
The new crop of riders seem to want tons of travel, and no small bump compliance, which I guess they equate with pedal bob, and "inefficiency". I manage to make any suspension work to my advantage, bob, or otherwise, so why would I want to isolate myself from it so much that it didn't work on most stuff?
My two cents, I know its not a popular view, but someone had to say it.
??? another example, amongst a million, of how useless MTBR truly is...LOL. For every opinion preferring X, i can give you 1 or more in favor of Y. My experience is the opposite, where DW "tracks" (as much as i hate that cliche) better than any bike I have owned, single pivot, VPP, faux bar, horst link, or otherwise...whatever, who gives a flying eff as its just my (subjective) opinion.
my advice is that if conflicting opinions are offered on ANY effing bike/component etc, follow the advice of the person with the most posts
Actually , I find my DW Sultan one of the better out of the saddle pedaling full suspension bikes that I've tried anyway .........4x4 ( horst link ) on my Knolly is pretty friggin nice as well but only comes as a 26 " wheeler ! I give the nod to DW for efficiency ! TIG.
my El Rey was better out of the saddle and thats as close a comparison as I can make to my sultan given the "relatively" comparable build/type of bike
I'd say the increased compression damping that is necessary on Horst link bikes + the axle-path has the opposite effect, it makes HL bikes harsher in the rough.
Agreed to the point that HL bikes still stink for what I'm looking for. I was simply answering in the context of the OP's question.
Me? I love single pivots. The platform shocks make them ride great. HL et al, are designed to prevent and or minimize bobbing, so pairing them with a platform will indeed make them super firm. SP is a great use for Propedal etc, IMO. Firm, till it doesn't need to be
2Turners- Worth noting, I lump all these bikes together, anything with more junk in the trunk than required, be it VPP, DM, CVwhatever, etc.
I've tried, Turners, a few Niners, Giants, Pivots, Ibis, and a few others that aren't coming to mind right now. All at Interbike, so they were set up for me to more or less what the makers felt was correct. Dunno, they just feel like bikes designed for smooth bombers down SoCal buffed singletrack, with a few big hit jumps tossed in.
Maybe I'm crazy, or just old fashioned, but I don't mind feeling my suspension move now and then, and a little movement doesn't ruin my day. Getting my backside repeatedly spanked over a 1/2 mile run of roots the size of your thighs and arms? That pisses me off.
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??? another example, amongst a million, of how useless MTBR truly is...LOL.
What exactly, is the example you're referring to? I wrote a bit there....
So, is your issue that I don't like something which you do, and your opinion is more valid since it supports what the OP is considering?
Sorry, just confused as to how my subjective, stated plainly as personal opinion, offends Fo.
Perhaps deep down, you feel I'm onto something, and since you just spent bucks on one, you'd rather not pay attention what your subconscious is telling you?
It's all good, and all opinion. If anyone here did something solely based on what I thought? I'd be scared. Folks can't even pick grips or a paint color around here without a lengthy, hand holding, consensus building thread, I doubt my less than glowing opinion is evena blip on the radar.
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"Speak softly and carry an armored tank division" - name withheld to protect the innocent
Yeah, the DWL and CVA designs simply are superior, though many HLs and SPs are still pretty good. The TNT Flux was a fast bike and my HL Titus Racer-X is too but they are both short-travel, esp the Titus. The DWL is sweet and this is my second one. The HLs and SP I have owned are nice and I still own the Titus but they not my first choice by far. I recently sold my Lenz and a couple of Turners and Ventanas before that. The DWLs simply pedal better and sag so little on steep climbs. You know, the CVA doesn't get as many props but that is another one- the only one that can compare to the DWL. They are different enough to where I'd love to own both- maybe the new Jet when it comes out.
Agreed to the point that HL bikes still stink for what I'm looking for. I was simply answering in the context of the OP's question.
Me? I love single pivots. The platform shocks make them ride great. HL et al, are designed to prevent and or minimize bobbing, so pairing them with a platform will indeed make them super firm. SP is a great use for Propedal etc, IMO. Firm, till it doesn't need to be
2Turners- Worth noting, I lump all these bikes together, anything with more junk in the trunk than required, be it VPP, DM, CVwhatever, etc.
I've tried, Turners, a few Niners, Giants, Pivots, Ibis, and a few others that aren't coming to mind right now. All at Interbike, so they were set up for me to more or less what the makers felt was correct. Dunno, they just feel like bikes designed for smooth bombers down SoCal buffed singletrack, with a few big hit jumps tossed in.
Maybe I'm crazy, or just old fashioned, but I don't mind feeling my suspension move now and then, and a little movement doesn't ruin my day. Getting my backside repeatedly spanked over a 1/2 mile run of roots the size of your thighs and arms? That pisses me off.
Hmm. This actually makes sense to me. I like a very active feeling suspension over repeated hits but don't really trust the current crop of stable platform shocks to give me that and no-bob, efficient pedaling. Maybe because I've only ridden them on bikes that are designed to not need them.
I'm listening. What bike do you ride?
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Mmm... Adrenaline, sweat, and sardines. These tracks are fresh sir.
What exactly, is the example you're referring to? I wrote a bit there....
So, is your issue that I don't like something which you do, and your opinion is more valid since it supports what the OP is considering?
Sorry, just confused as to how my subjective, stated plainly as personal opinion, offends Fo.
Perhaps deep down, you feel I'm onto something, and since you just spent bucks on one, you'd rather not pay attention what your subconscious is telling you?
It's all good, and all opinion. If anyone here did something solely based on what I thought? I'd be scared. Folks can't even pick grips or a paint color around here without a lengthy, hand holding, consensus building thread, I doubt my less than glowing opinion is evena blip on the radar.
??? your reading comprehension suffers (you must be a moderator)
I said for every opinion, one to the contrary can be found, period, always will be the case (even though mine is usually the correct one, but to each their own). this is NOT science
trust me, you are far from being able to offend me...many greater have tried, and failed
I've ridden Super V's, Prophets, Monks, and now Lenz Sports, all with varied platform shocks. Fox, Manitou, and Progressive.
Me? I love the combo. I'm sure most here will not though, and this isn't my thread. Want more info? Drop me a PM, not my intention to hijack the OP's train
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"Speak softly and carry an armored tank division" - name withheld to protect the innocent
??? your reading comprehension suffers (you must be a moderator)
I said for every opinion, one to the contrary can be found, period, always will be the case (even though mine is usually the correct one, but to each their own). this is NOT science
trust me, you are far from being able to offend me...many greater have tried, and failed
Wow, I got a response, I must have gotten to you
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"Speak softly and carry an armored tank division" - name withheld to protect the innocent
??? another example, amongst a million, of how useless MTBR truly is...LOL. For every opinion preferring X, i can give you 1 or more in favor of Y. My experience is the opposite, where DW "tracks" (as much as i hate that cliche) better than any bike I have owned, single pivot, VPP, faux bar, horst link, or otherwise...whatever, who gives a flying eff as its just my (subjective) opinion.
my advice is that if conflicting opinions are offered on ANY effing bike/component etc, follow the advice of the person with the most posts
Good point Fo-ster. I've seen a couple of posts today where other people's experience was in direct contradiction to mine. My first impulse (as seen by at least one of my posts on this thread) is to try and convince the other person that something must have been wrong to get the outcome they had. Then I step back, take a deep breath, and remember that this is e-riding we're talking about so not much of it really matters.
Thanks for injecting some perspective into the discussion.
Think Trek Y bikes, Klein Mantras, Schwinn Homegrowns etc.
say what? those are URT bikes, which could be thought of as single pivot, but should best be left in the dustbin of history for this discussion.
low-pivot single pivots usually do their thing from just behind the bottom bracket, a la kona. high pivot single pivots could be characterized by santa cruz superlights, or any of those bikes where the suspension pivots from either the downtube or a gusset above the bottom bracket.
I've ridden Super V's, Prophets, Monks, and now Lenz Sports, all with varied platform shocks. Fox, Manitou, and Progressive.
Me? I love the combo. I'm sure most here will not though, and this isn't my thread. Want more info? Drop me a PM, not my intention to hijack the OP's train
no worries about my thread..i enjoy everyone's opinion.
Good point Fo-ster. I've seen a couple of posts today where other people's experience was in direct contradiction to mine. My first impulse (as seen by at least one of my posts on this thread) is to try and convince the other person that something must have been wrong to get the outcome they had. Then I step back, take a deep breath, and remember that this is e-riding we're talking about so not much of it really matters.
Thanks for injecting some perspective into the discussion.
always glad to help...amongst all these retards its easy to lose perspective - remember that in general, they are far too stupid to comprehend the err in their ways and simply don't know any better
I vastly prefer Horst to an multi linked uber nightmare that the latest crop of builders seem to be falling all over each other to copy.
I'm sure this has been pointed out to you before, but you keep bringing it up so it bears repeating- how many fewer pivot points does a Horst Link bike (or even your beloved single pivot) have compared to a DW/VPP/CVA bike?
To the OP- having owned both Horst Link and DW Link Turners, my preference is definitely the latter. I happen to like small bump compliance in a rear suspension design too, and ran my HL/TNT Turners with ProPedal off for precisely this reason. The DW bikes allow you to do this without sacrificing how responsive the bike is to both pedaling and absorbing impacts. The combination makes for some outrageous traction, especially when combined with a 29" rear wheel.
__________________ A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have.
To the OP- having owned both Horst Link and DW Link Turners, my preference is definitely the latter. I happen to like small bump compliance in a rear suspension design too, and ran my HL/TNT Turners with ProPedal off for precisely this reason. The DW bikes allow you to do this without sacrificing how responsive the bike is to both pedaling and absorbing impacts. The combination makes for some outrageous traction, especially when combined with a 29" rear wheel.
Very true. I would say not only is the dwl better at handling the high speed chatter (over the hl/tnt turners I have owned), but the traction it maintains while standing and mashing (as well as braking) is what initially shocked me.
i saw the great pictures of your last trip with the sultan. i'm curious, does the dw link behave as well in granny gear as in the middle ring? thanx!
IMO, yes. A big yes. It has so little compression damping while still pedaling efficiently that I can "crawl" through chunk very smoothly at low speeds in the granny w/o experiencing that momentum killing "hang".
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The drive towards achievement and success is the motive power of civilization.
I ride a lot. Two bikes. One a DW Sultan, the other a Superfly 100 (single pivot). 100% of the time, I will choose the Fly if the ride is smooth, swoopy, and fast, and I will choose the DW Sultan if the ride is even moderately rugged or rougher.
The single pivot racer FLIES on smooth trails and over the occasional bump or two, but the DW Sultan just flat out smokes it in its ability to flow through multi-bump sections of chunk without losing momentum. Uphill, downhill, or flat.
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The drive towards achievement and success is the motive power of civilization.
I ride a lot. Two bikes. One a DW Sultan, the other a Superfly 100 (single pivot). 100% of the time, I will choose the Fly if the ride is smooth, swoopy, and fast, and I will choose the DW Sultan if the ride is even moderately rugged or rougher.
The single pivot racer FLIES on smooth trails and over the occasional bump or two, but the DW Sultan just flat out smokes it in its ability to flow through multi-bump sections of chunk without losing momentum. Uphill, downhill, or flat.
meh...what do you know? you dont even sell single pivot bikes
I really like the DW Link, and think it is one of the better systems out there. What makes it stand out even more is that Dave Weagle gets highly involved in the design of the bikes that uses his patent, and he is choosy whom he lets use it. Like anything, a well designed bike that acts in synergy with the suspension system is the key to it all.
Been riding a Ibis Mojo 26er for 3.5 years, and I have ridden the DW 26er/29er from Pivot and Turner. But I also ride a Moots Mooto-XZ, which uses their own proprietary MARC system, and it gets the job done just fine (good design).
suggest that one should be careful in lumping all bikes of a given suspension design together. I own a Mojo SL, and have ridden the Pivot mach 4 and 429, the Pivots are very different from the Ibis even though both are DW. As regards HL i've had the same experience, the Racer X for instance being very different from pre brain Specialized bikes. Both of these designs are highly tuneable by the designer, and the exact axle paths, shock valving and compression ratios can make for big differences in how the bikes ride.
I really think it is a big mistake to lump all bikes with two short links together as well. The DW link axle path shares much more in common with the HL than it does with VPP, and in my experience DW bikes and HL bikes ride more similarly than VPPs and DWs.
For my riding, DWs really shine in longer travel applications, where the suspension needs to be set up fairly plush. With four inches of travel or less I would rather have the simplicity and lighter weight of a well designed single pivot, and would then work with getting the shock perfectly tuned to make the bike efficient.
The only way to really decide which bike is going to be right for you is going to be a demo, and really only a full day riding a selection of your local trails (with a shock pump) is going to reveal the good and bad points of a design. I would not rule out either the HL, DW, or SP bikes without riding them. Every suspension design is a balance of compromises, and every rider has a unique set of wants in a bike.
IMO, yes. A big yes. It has so little compression damping while still pedaling efficiently that I can "crawl" through chunk very smoothly at low speeds in the granny w/o experiencing that momentum killing "hang".
I'm coming from an FSR to a DW Sultan, and IMO the only place where the FSR bike is superior is in pedal kick back in the granny. Specifically - the Sultan has significantly more kick back in the bottom few gears than I'm used to on the FSR.
Everywhere else the DW Link (as implemented in the Sultan) is either a match for, or superior to the FSR.
suggest that one should be careful in lumping all bikes of a given suspension design together. I own a Mojo SL, and have ridden the Pivot mach 4 and 429, the Pivots are very different from the Ibis even though both are DW. As regards HL i've had the same experience, the Racer X for instance being very different from pre brain Specialized bikes. Both of these designs are highly tuneable by the designer, and the exact axle paths, shock valving and compression ratios can make for big differences in how the bikes ride.
I really think it is a big mistake to lump all bikes with two short links together as well. The DW link axle path shares much more in common with the HL than it does with VPP, and in my experience DW bikes and HL bikes ride more similarly than VPPs and DWs.
For my riding, DWs really shine in longer travel applications, where the suspension needs to be set up fairly plush. With four inches of travel or less I would rather have the simplicity and lighter weight of a well designed single pivot, and would then work with getting the shock perfectly tuned to make the bike efficient.
The only way to really decide which bike is going to be right for you is going to be a demo, and really only a full day riding a selection of your local trails (with a shock pump) is going to reveal the good and bad points of a design. I would not rule out either the HL, DW, or SP bikes without riding them. Every suspension design is a balance of compromises, and every rider has a unique set of wants in a bike.
thanks, iam on a a rx29er now and am thinking about buying a mach429,i am a xc rider no jumping,lots of roots rocks single track.always flippn the pp lever on my rx,its not to bad until i get tired and that lever gets harder to find.dont know if i should buy the 429 or get my shock pushed,heard that works well.cant demo a mach in my area.it sucs to live in nj. thanks again.
thanks, iam on a a rx29er now and am thinking about buying a mach429,i am a xc rider no jumping,lots of roots rocks single track.always flippn the pp lever on my rx,its not to bad until i get tired and that lever gets harder to find.dont know if i should buy the 429 or get my shock pushed,heard that works well.cant demo a mach in my area.it sucs to live in nj. thanks again.
I ride an RX29er and have tested a Mach429. The RX29er isn't perfect. The two biggest issues for me are how it sags on initial acceleration when you stand to finish a climb and how it blows through it's travel on bigger hits. On the upside is great steering, very stiff rear end, almost no bob with pro-pedal, awesome braking, etc.
The 429 I rode feels like a hard tail when you stand up on it which was great feeling. It was also more plush on downhill. The DW anti-squat stuff is for real. But compared to the RX, the 429 was no where as nimble on XC singletrack.
For trail riding I would think the 429 would be a nice upgrade, but for fast XC riding I would definately stay with the RX.
Getting the PUSH work on the shock sounds like it would help the RX, how much is that?
I ride an RX29er and have tested a Mach429. The RX29er isn't perfect. The two biggest issues for me are how it sags on initial acceleration when you stand to finish a climb and how it blows through it's travel on bigger hits. On the upside is great steering, very stiff rear end, almost no bob with pro-pedal, awesome braking, etc.
The 429 I rode feels like a hard tail when you stand up on it which was great feeling. It was also more plush on downhill. The DW anti-squat stuff is for real. But compared to the RX, the 429 was no where as nimble on XC singletrack.
For trail riding I would think the 429 would be a nice upgrade, but for fast XC riding I would definately stay with the RX.
Getting the PUSH work on the shock sounds like it would help the RX, how much is that?
they have a couple options but $150-$180 seems to be what u will spend
Where does the ICT fall in all of this mess? I'm currently shopping for a FS 29'er and am torn between Turner, Ellsworth, Moots, Niner, or possibly an 09' Rx if I can find one.
thanks, iam on a a rx29er now and am thinking about buying a mach429,i am a xc rider no jumping,lots of roots rocks single track.always flippn the pp lever on my rx,its not to bad until i get tired and that lever gets harder to find.dont know if i should buy the 429 or get my shock pushed,heard that works well.cant demo a mach in my area.it sucs to live in nj. thanks again.
This literally blew me away when I demoed the Sultan. Perhaps the one "stand" out trait of the bike in my limited ride experience.
Even thought the 2 of you are ruh-tards, perhaps there is a small chance that this may be true. Maybe, just maybe, assuming the traction is remaining good when standing, that's why i feel as if i dont like it when standing. When i stand i dont want it to wallow, even if that means it is retaining "traction", but rather I prefer it to more hardtail like. Nevertheless, a great bike for sure, just that i guess i prefer a stiffer setup when standing cuz when i stand that is the whole point based on why i am standing in the first place
Unfortunately, none of the currently available bikes with these suspensions turn me on enough geometry wise to lure me away from a good old low single pivot.*
In other words, the difference is there, but it will not change your world in any way. If your current ride makes you smile, I would not bother. But if I had a choice of two bikes that were essentially geometric equivalents I would pick the DW every time (I completely understand all the V1 Sultan owners switching to V2 bikes for example)
*None of the current crop of DW 29" bikes comes with 6" of travel, is a suspension single speed, and has chainstay shorter than 17.9 inches or head angle slacker than 70 degrees.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buddhak
And I thought I had a bike obsession. You are at once tragic and awesome.
Even thought the 2 of you are ruh-tards, perhaps there is a small chance that this may be true. Maybe, just maybe, assuming the traction is remaining good when standing, that's why i feel as if i dont like it when standing. When i stand i dont want it to wallow, even if that means it is retaining "traction", but rather I prefer it to more hardtail like. Nevertheless, a great bike for sure, just that i guess i prefer a stiffer setup when standing cuz when i stand that is the whole point based on why i am standing in the first place
I ride a lot. Two bikes. One a DW Sultan, the other a Superfly 100 (single pivot). 100% of the time, I will choose the Fly if the ride is smooth, swoopy, and fast, and I will choose the DW Sultan if the ride is even moderately rugged or rougher..
Not to be Captain Obvious here, but I think WHERE people ride influences their opinion as much as any other factor (i.e. their being "retards," "homers," etc...). When considering posters' opinions, I always try to consider their terrain compared to mine, and appreciate posts like this (and others in this thread) that include that info.
Just something for the OP to consider in case he hadn't already.
Not to be Captain Obvious here, but I think WHERE people ride influences their opinion as much as any other factor (i.e. their being "retards," "homers," etc...). When considering posters' opinions, I always try to consider their terrain compared to mine, and appreciate posts like this (and others in this thread) that include that info.
Just something for the OP to consider in case he hadn't already.
i agree...where the said ruh-tard rides is indeed important.
for me, its A LOT of climbing, ranging from long fireroad climbs to long technical/rocky climbs, with many trails have alot of ups and downs - depends for me. So climbing a big factor for my riding where if i lived in areas where other ruh-tards did, the weight attributed to climbing would be less overall.
The DW link works just like the hype says, but based on my limited experience I think the set-up might be a little different than what you'd normally do.
For one, if the rebound is over-damped, the small bump action is not working and actually slows you down. You might set it faster than you normally would. Mine is not quite wide open.
For two, if you don't set enough sag, the thing chatters on the small bumps - the full 25% sag will hook up that rear tire in pretty much any conditions without getting you too close to the bottom of the travel AND without messing up your standing climbs.
If I ponied up for a fork with lockout I think combining it with the DWL would actually make it a good sprinter - say, if you were in a drag race to the finish and locked out your fork I think you would have a distinct advantage over someone with a different rear susp. design.
always glad to help...amongst all these retards its easy to lose perspective - remember that in general, they are far too stupid to comprehend the err in their ways and simply don't know any better
The Pivot 429 is a great ride. One of my riding partners loves his for XC riding. With a light wheelset ($$$) it has great XC handling. That said, unless you really want to spend some money and build a new bike (I usually do!), I would stick with the Racer-X and work on refining its ride, PUSH the rear shock, make sure your fork is perfect, etc. The Racer-X design is a great XC bike.
The HL was the best design until Turner picked up the DW Link design. Now the DW Link is the best design out there. If Turner picks up a single pivot design then it becomes the best. Oh, sorry, they are already did that Design is overrated as application and execution are the most important parts of suspension design: there are great single pivot bikes, VPP bikes, etc. Heck, DW himself has a new design (see Evil bikes) that is a glorified single pivot that I hear is awesome. I expect Turner to pick that design up in the next few years. Oh, and it will be the best design then. I ride a dual link and HL design that are very nice. The DW Link is nice too. Hard to say which is better...just different.
By the way, don't use the term retard on here it offends Fo
Good for climbing/downhills/chunky stuff/butter smooth single track.
Pivot is a little heavier, but you can build it light if you want to. I dont notice the weight difference between my 27.4lb Exogrid RacerX and the 29.5lb Mach 429 at all.
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"Some painters transform the sun into a yellow spot, others transform a yellow spot into the sun." - Picasso
*None of the current crop of DW 29" bikes comes with 6" of travel, is a suspension single speed, and has chainstay shorter than 17.9 inches or head angle slacker than 70 degrees.
Holy schmoly, you may be waiting awhile for your next bike!
(although I heard from a little bird that a certain somebody would be pushing Lenz very hard this winter for a 5" rear sus single speed)
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The drive towards achievement and success is the motive power of civilization.
What happens when Special Ed buys the patent? Will all the current DW bikes ensue to t3h suck due to implied homogenization and prospective ubiquity?
What about a 6" travel URT with an EBB? Journal bearing pivots with Zerk fittings. Made of spider silk, bamboo and the tears/excrement of lost children. New 4.00" HS standard seems appropriate.
Until any other FS 29er mfr gets their CSs in the neighborhood of 17" I don't care which sausage linxzors they're deploying. Based on the subtle real world differences in the practical application of modern suspension designs the benefits of the shorter CSs - faux-bar or otherwise - still wildly trump the purported behavioral traits of DW/HL bikes. Yes, I've ridden/owned every flavor of bicicleta chassis so prospectively suck it.
Rubbish! A super-short chainstay makes for a fun playbike but is overrated and sucks in some areas (relatively speaking). Just because all half dozen of you think it is the Holy Grail, doesn't make it so.
I'm voting for 17.75.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soupboy
Preposterous!
Until any other FS 29er mfr gets their CSs in the neighborhood of 17" I don't care which sausage linxzors they're deploying. Based on the subtle real world differences in the practical application of modern suspension designs the benefits of the shorter CSs - faux-bar or otherwise - still wildly trump the purported behavioral traits of DW/HL bikes. Yes, I've ridden/owned every flavor of bicicleta chassis so prospectively suck it.
Rubbish! A super-short chainstay makes for a fun playbike but is overrated and sucks in some areas (relatively speaking). Just because all half dozen of you think it is the Holy Grail, doesn't make it so.
I'm voting for 17.75.
Oh yeah! Just cuz you can't deal with the perceived, minor weakness of a low pivot doesn't make it so. Low pivots climb fine in my neighborhood.
So there.
Seriously, ride what makes you smile, but don't assume that just because someone thinks another bike/design is better that they are an uneducated buffoon. We all make choices that are rational to us. It is always >90% rider.
BTW: LENZ RULZ!!!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buddhak
And I thought I had a bike obsession. You are at once tragic and awesome.
Holy schmoly, you may be waiting awhile for your next bike!
That's fine by me as I am quite happy with what I have. In fact, I only bought one bike in the past year which must be some sort of record for me (even that was just a frame swap for a smaller size) The endless cycle of finding bikes I really really like has finally stopped (sorta).
Quote:
Originally Posted by kosmo
(although I heard from a little bird that a certain somebody would be pushing Lenz very hard this winter for a 5" rear sus single speed)
I am quite interested in this bike, but as of right now it is vapor, and I predict it will remain vapor until at least next winter. I hope I am wrong here.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buddhak
And I thought I had a bike obsession. You are at once tragic and awesome.
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