Teocalli

[sodapopinski]

My buddy and I are in CB for the week. We come out every year and always have a great time. Yesterday we tried out Teocalli for the first time and I just have to say, holy cow what a climb! Anyway, we were curious if many people are riding this trail. It seemed really rutted out and having to wade across the creek was interesting. Is this the usual conditions for this trail? While it was fun and very challenging--went over my handlebars once on the way down--it seemed like a bit of a mess. Taking it easy today and hitting the Upper and Upper Upper Loops.

[shoulderfu]

You must ride like OTB!

[zrm]

Dirt bikes are often not the friends of trails

[sodapopinski]

Yeah, we came across a group of about 6 dirt bikes. Had a good day today, though. And tomorrow we will be hitting our favorite, 401. Hopefully I don't get to OTB on that!

[OTB]

coming from a guy with a screen name like ShoulderFU? hmmmm

[ZipZip]

Yes, the climb is always that long...and the rest of it just isn't worth that kind of exertion, but maybe that's just me. Your mileage may vary.

[miss rides a lot]

Rode it a few weeks ago. It definitely seems a bit less ridden than some of the trails. Would've liked to have done Deer Creek, but the next day was Monarch Crest, so didn't feel like back-to-back epics, after doing Snodgrass-403-401 the day before.

The climbs were rough on me. Descent was pretty good, but it's definitely one of the more technical that I've ridden in the area (IMO).

How high was the creek? Rode through the first one

IMG_0022.jpg

and walked through the second one on the fire road back to the parking area. The second one was definitely deeper! But, just low-mid shin high?

In parts of 403, though, you couldn't see the trail! I'm guessing that one also doesn't get a ton of bike traffic.

[SkaredShtles]

Sad to hear that Teocalli has degenerated over the years...

Motos = bad for Crested Butte singletrack

[FoldsInHalf]

Yo, Teocalli is supposed to be tough, right? Killer climb, awesome views, killer descent. That's the word on the street, anyway. And when I rode it last week, I thought it lived up to that reputation exactly. So Bacon Boy and the rest, I wouldn't be too worried, it's still an amazing ride if you like that sort of thing (which, I gather, you do).

The doubletrack ride up was kinda long but awfully purty.



The road didn't so much cross the creek as merge with it for about 50 yards on the way up. All of maybe 6 inches deep max, but I managed to get bogged down somewhere along the way with my little tires and had to trudge the rest of the way through on foot. Oh well, I'm used to that.



Partway up the singletrack climb it started to rain. I had expected to push a good bit of this part anyway, and the rain certainly didn't help. Builds character, right?



The view off the backside of the ridge toward Pearl Pass and such was really impressive and ominous looking. No lightning around though, thank goodness, so I lingered a bit and soaked it all in. Tried to visualize the route to Aspen but couldn't. Don't think that ride's in the cards for this year... but maybe next?



The upper part of the descent was downright east coast: rocky, rooty, steep, slimy, lush. A little taste of Pisgah (or maybe Slatyfork, given the rain) in Colorado.



Okay, non-sequitur photo, but here's the bit of Slatyfork this reminded me of. Somewhat similar, no?



The exposed lower part of the descent was smooth and has some seriously steep segments. The rain made some of those challenging to even walk down. Most of this would be cake to roll, and super fast, in the dry, but it became a total slip-n-slide in the wet (hint: go early, duh). A few parts may have had some moto damage, but overall it seemed to be in decent shape and not overly trenched out. I've certainly encountered worse, anyway.



The creek on the return was about knee deep and made for a handy (and much needed) bike and body wash.



I'm looking forward to returning one day and riding this gem in the dry. But even after my fairly surreal experience in the wet, I'd still highly recommend Teocalli to anyone who relishes a challenge. Along with its slightly-less-punishing cousin Doctor Park down the valley, these rides just have a different vibe than most of the Butte. They both remind me of moderately technical east coast trails, but magically overlaid onto big Rocky Mountain scenery. That's a sweet combination in my book.

[Spokejunkies]

Doctors is a great ride and agree that it reminds me of Pisgah/Slatyfork...thanks for the pics and info

[SicBith]

Originally Posted by SkaredShtles

Sad to hear that Teocalli has degenerated over the years...

Motos = bad for Crested Butte singletrack

Motos made all the trails so they can't be that bad. They also do the majority of the trail work.
Teo has not been beatin down that bad over the years. Those guy just haven't ridden it that much.

[SkaredShtles]

I used to be a bit more agnostic regarding the motos, but after a couple experiences on trails over between Taylor Res & Dr Park as well as on Flag I've modified my stance. IMO motos should not be allowed on singletrack around there.

[SicBith]

Tolerence my young friend. I've always been a mtn biker, but picked up a moto last year to check out new trails, and help expand my local network. I used to get pissed when they would come, but now I notice the mtn biker attitude more so than the moto attitude towards mtn bikers. I lived in CB for the better part of 10 yrs, and know a lot of the moto crowd up there. They're are for the most part a great group. They do a lot of trail work, (more than the mtn bikers) and deserve an equal share of singletrack. Yes trails can get torn up, and yes there can attitudes, but those faults are found on both sides of the coin. If the locals can get along with them motos I don't see why the visitors can't. After there might be a day when you need help fast, and a moto is the only way you're going to get it on top of Double Top, or RFBD, or Doctor's or any number of trails.

[SkaredShtles]

Sorry - not swaying me. Ban the motos from the singletrack.

[SicBith]

That's the mtn biking attitude I like to see. It's DBs like you that get mtn bikers banned from singletrack. You should spend some time in CB before you get all butt hurt about motos.

[SkaredShtles]

Originally Posted by SicBith

That's the mtn biking attitude I like to see. It's DBs like you that get mtn bikers banned from singletrack. You should spend some time in CB before you get all butt hurt about motos.

So you're saying it's a slippery slope? I choose to disagree with that point, yet you bring out the personal insults. Nice attitude from a CB moto, there.

[cbrossman]

We ran into motos on Teocalli a few weeks ago. They were cool, let us pass them until they had to pass back and off to the races.

[SicBith]

Originally Posted by SkaredShtles

So you're saying it's a slippery slope? I choose to disagree with that point, yet you bring out the personal insults. Nice attitude from a CB moto, there.

That attitude came from a CB mtn biker. I moto in Summit Cty. Mtn biking gained access to a lot of land and trails by having tolerence for other trail users, and by organizing trail maintaince and building days. When mtn bikers come out and take a stance of wanting to limit trail use we start sounding like hikers and equestrians. Do you want to go back to those days? There is plenty of singletrack that motos can't access (CO Trail) go ride there if you don't like motos.

[SkaredShtles]

Originally Posted by SicBith

That attitude came from a CB mtn biker. I moto in Summit Cty. Mtn biking gained access to a lot of land and trails by having tolerence for other trail users, and by organizing trail maintaince and building days. When mtn bikers come out and take a stance of wanting to limit trail use we start sounding like hikers and equestrians. Do you want to go back to those days? There is plenty of singletrack that motos can't access (CO Trail) go ride there if you don't like motos.

Like I said, I used to be more tolerant... until I witnessed complete and utter trail destruction on a ride caused by motos. They completely DESTROYED the trail in more than one section that I rode. Hell - the trail at one point was raped (probably beyond repair) for literally HUNDREDS of yards.

Let's just say it changed my viewpoint.

Obviously YMMV.

[SicBith]

Originally Posted by SkaredShtles

Like I said, I used to be more tolerant... until I witnessed complete and utter trail destruction on a ride caused by motos. They completely DESTROYED the trail in more than one section that I rode. Hell - the trail at one point was raped (probably beyond repair) for literally HUNDREDS of yards.

Let's just say it changed my viewpoint.

Obviously YMMV.

You'll need to help me out with YMMV?????

That's the beauty of dirt, you can rebuild anything. I've worked on 2 different trail days, and have seen invitations for 5 trail days by the local moto club. I haven't seen or heard of 1 trail day by mtn bikers who make up the majority of trail users in Summit Cty. I know, and have participated in bike trail days put together by the CB Mtn Bike Association. Have you taken the time to help maintain the trails you use? You seem to enjoy trashing other users, but do YOU take responsibility for the damage, however slight you believe it to be, caused by your use of the trails.

[SicBith]

I think I read on one of your threads that you are moving, or have moved to CB, or Gunni?

CBMBA is having a trail day on Oct 5th and doing work on 403. This is a great chance for you to get involved in maintaining trails that you like to use.

[SicBith]

Hey check it out

The moto group in CB worked on the Flag Creek decent on July 20th. I read it is riding good.

CBMBA rebuilt the Deadman's switchbacks and put in a moto only DH section on the switchbacks. I haven't seen it yet as I rode RFBD from the Spring Creek side this year and came back to Flag on Reno Ridge.

Get involved my man. We can all ***** about trail use, and abuse, but until you get involved your just part of the problem.

[cbrossman]

Originally Posted by SicBith

Hey check it out

The moto group in CB worked on the Flag Creek decent on July 20th. I read it is riding good.

CBMBA rebuilt the Deadman's switchbacks and put in a moto only DH section on the switchbacks. I haven't seen it yet as I rode RFBD from the Spring Creek side this year and came back to Flag on Reno Ridge.

Get involved my man. We can all ***** about trail use, and abuse, but until you get involved your just part of the problem.

I don't think there is room for common sense and intelligent discourse on these here forums, but I appreciate your efforts to add some.

[SkaredShtles]

Originally Posted by SicBith

Get involved my man. We can all ***** about trail use, and abuse, but until you get involved your just part of the problem.

I have done trail work in the past. Sadly, with as much as I have vying for my time now I barely find time enough to get out and RIDE occasionally...

I am supporting those who DO maintain my local trails - does that count?

[zrm]

It's a simple matter of physics that a dirt bike that is heavier, has many times the power, and has a wider tire with deeper knobs will displace more soil that a bicycle. When I rode CB last year after a long absence I too noticed some of the trails around CB where chewed up more, in a manner consistent with dirt bike use. Motos are more powerful and have bigger tires than ever and unless the rider putts around at quarter throttle dirt bikes are going to chew up trails pretty bad - especially if the trails are steeper than a 7 or 8% grade. Some soil types are more durable than others, but you can't get away from the physics of the situation. Any trail manager knows that.
That said, IMO there is room for some moto specific or shared use trails as long as it does not result in degradation of the trails to the point where it results in resource damage such as sedimentation of streams, widening of trails to the point where the loss of plant life is significant, destruction of riparian areas, off trail use. or degradation of the trail to the point where it is not longer a positive recreational experience for the intended users.
Personally I think if one user group degrades the trial to the point that it is no longer a viable trail for other users, then the problem needs to be fixed, either by modification of how the offending group uses the trail, modifying the trail, or if the first two options don't correct the problem, ban the offending users.

PS: Motorcycles did not build "all the trails" in the CB area. many of those trail go back to the CCC days. Others where built later by the FS. Many are old mining routes.

PPS: I did four official trail work days this year and several unofficial days of clearing blowdown, cleaning out water bars and blocking off braids.

[shoulderfu]

Those damn folding bikes w/20" wheels really seem to do the most damage,and dont get me started on their kickstands....endo'ed bad once on those craters they leave behind.
Always seem to be stopping to take pix w/their earth killers in the MIDDLE of the trail!

[SkaredShtles]

Originally Posted by zrm

It's a simple matter of physics that a dirt bike that is heavier, has many times the power, and has a wider tire with deeper knobs will displace more soil that a bicycle. When I rode CB last year after a long absence I too noticed some of the trails around CB where chewed up more, in a manner consistent with dirt bike use. Motos are more powerful and have bigger tires than ever and unless the rider putts around at quarter throttle dirt bikes are going to chew up trails pretty bad - especially if the trails are steeper than a 7 or 8% grade. Some soil types are more durable than others, but you can't get away from the physics of the situation. Any trail manager knows that.
That said, IMO there is room for some moto specific or shared use trails as long as it does not result in degradation of the trails to the point where it results in resource damage such as sedimentation of streams, widening of trails to the point where the loss of plant life is significant, destruction of riparian areas, off trail use. or degradation of the trail to the point where it is not longer a positive recreational experience for the intended users.
Personally I think if one user group degrades the trial to the point that it is no longer a viable trail for other users, then the problem needs to be fixed, either by modification of how the offending group uses the trail, modifying the trail, or if the first two options don't correct the problem, ban the offending users.

PS: Motorcycles did not build "all the trails" in the CB area. many of those trail go back to the CCC days. Others where built later by the FS. Many are old mining routes.

PPS: I did four official trail work days this year and several unofficial days of clearing blowdown, cleaning out water bars and blocking off braids.

Very diplomatically and well stated, my friend!

[brad h]

Originally Posted by SicBith

Motos made all the trails so they can't be that bad. They also do the majority of the trail work.

Bullsh!t, and more bullsh!t, repeat it enough and it will become true. Old myths. Check your history, ever hear of the Great Depression? That's when the CCC, WPA and other FDR created work groups built most of the trails. As far as trail work, they don't, but should do most of the trail work as they do the vast majority of the damage. There's a direct correlation between horsepower and rutting, aka, trail damage. A monkey could figure that out. Ride Reno this year? How did those narrow 18inch deep ruts get laid into the beginning of the Bear downhill? Maybe 10,000 super-fit mountain bikers all took turns spinning out there until they were blue-in-face...but I doubt it. The truth is, one, that's right one, dipsh!t with sixty horsepower rode it way early and f@cked it up for everyone. One dipsh!t mountain biker couldn't possibly do that much damage. Moto's have no place in the alpine. It's too soft, too fragile an environment to sustain idiots with too much horsepower. Ultimately, it's an inherently lazy, crude way to experience the Colorado backcountry. Ban 'em above 8k ft. Period. Oh yeah, I too, have spent the better part of the last decade in CB and my opinions are consistently backed up by basic observations.

[FoldsInHalf]

Originally Posted by shoulderfu

Those damn folding bikes w/20" wheels really seem to do the most damage,and dont get me started on their kickstands....endo'ed bad once on those craters they leave behind.
Always seem to be stopping to take pix w/their earth killers in the MIDDLE of the trail!

Ain't that the truth. Can't tell ya how many times I've wiped out because of those stupid little wheels. Ban those deathtraps. Too much torque.

But kickstands R kool. I've always figured if I'm gonna lug the damn thing around, I might as well use it at every opportunity. However I will try to mitigate my cratering in the future. After almost 3000 miles offroad now I cannot imagine how many killer potholes I must have left in my wake. Thanks for bringing the issue to my attention.

[zrm]

Originally Posted by brad h

Bullsh!t, and more bullsh!t, repeat it enough and it will become true. Old myths. Check your history, ever hear of the Great Depression? That's when the CCC, WPA and other FDR created work groups built most of the trails. As far as trail work, they don't, but should do most of the trail work as they do the vast majority of the damage. There's a direct correlation between horsepower and rutting, aka, trail damage. A monkey could figure that out. Ride Reno this year? How did those narrow 18inch deep ruts get laid into the beginning of the Bear downhill? Maybe a 10,000 super-fit mountain bikers all took turns spinning out there until they were blue-in-face...but I doubt it. The truth is, one, that's right one, dipsh!t with sixty horsepower rode it way early and f@cked it up for everyone. One dipsh!t mountain biker couldn't possibly do that much damage. Moto's have no place in the alpine. It's too soft, too fragile an environment to sustain idiots with too much horsepower. Ultimately, it's an inherently lazy, crude way to experience the Colorado backcountry. Ban 'em below 8k ft. Period. Oh yeah, I too, have spent the better part of the last decade in CB and my opinions are consistently backed up by basic observations.

You'll never get your point across if you keep sugar coating it like that.

[brad h]

Originally Posted by zrm

You'll never get your point across if you keep sugar coating it like that.

Yeah, well, the edges were definitely sharpened by my blood alcohol content last night. But I stand by everything I wrote.

[SicBith]

Originally Posted by cbrossman

I don't think there is room for common sense and intelligent discourse on these here forums, but I appreciate your efforts to add some.

suck it Tribeck. You f'n, f'ed, sh&tball hippy

[SicBith]

Originally Posted by zrm

It's a simple matter of physics that a dirt bike that is heavier, has many times the power, and has a wider tire with deeper knobs will displace more soil that a bicycle. When I rode CB last year after a long absence I too noticed some of the trails around CB where chewed up more, in a manner consistent with dirt bike use. Motos are more powerful and have bigger tires than ever and unless the rider putts around at quarter throttle dirt bikes are going to chew up trails pretty bad - especially if the trails are steeper than a 7 or 8% grade. Some soil types are more durable than others, but you can't get away from the physics of the situation. Any trail manager knows that.
That said, IMO there is room for some moto specific or shared use trails as long as it does not result in degradation of the trails to the point where it results in resource damage such as sedimentation of streams, widening of trails to the point where the loss of plant life is significant, destruction of riparian areas, off trail use. or degradation of the trail to the point where it is not longer a positive recreational experience for the intended users.
Personally I think if one user group degrades the trial to the point that it is no longer a viable trail for other users, then the problem needs to be fixed, either by modification of how the offending group uses the trail, modifying the trail, or if the first two options don't correct the problem, ban the offending users.

PS: Motorcycles did not build "all the trails" in the CB area. many of those trail go back to the CCC days. Others where built later by the FS. Many are old mining routes.

PPS: I did four official trail work days this year and several unofficial days of clearing blowdown, cleaning out water bars and blocking off braids.

Way to get involved. Your right to say the motos did not build all the trails, but they did set up some good connector trails to the major routes.
Breck has an area known as the Golden Horseshoe. It's an area between Tiger Run Rd, and French Gultch. It's known mostly for motoing, but there are a lot of mtn bikers who ride there. It's a great example of shared, and seperate use. The motos stay in the Horseshoe area, and you see less of them on connector trails around the CO. Trail. (which they can't ride on). The moto group does 4 or 5 trail days in conjunction with the FS to ensure good riding, and enviromental conditions.

[SicBith]

Originally Posted by brad h

Bullsh!t, and more bullsh!t, repeat it enough and it will become true. Old myths. Check your history, ever hear of the Great Depression? That's when the CCC, WPA and other FDR created work groups built most of the trails. As far as trail work, they don't, but should do most of the trail work as they do the vast majority of the damage. There's a direct correlation between horsepower and rutting, aka, trail damage. A monkey could figure that out. Ride Reno this year? How did those narrow 18inch deep ruts get laid into the beginning of the Bear downhill? Maybe 10,000 super-fit mountain bikers all took turns spinning out there until they were blue-in-face...but I doubt it. The truth is, one, that's right one, dipsh!t with sixty horsepower rode it way early and f@cked it up for everyone. One dipsh!t mountain biker couldn't possibly do that much damage. Moto's have no place in the alpine. It's too soft, too fragile an environment to sustain idiots with too much horsepower. Ultimately, it's an inherently lazy, crude way to experience the Colorado backcountry. Ban 'em above 8k ft. Period. Oh yeah, I too, have spent the better part of the last decade in CB and my opinions are consistently backed up by basic observations.

Bullsh*t, Bullsh*t, Bullsh*t... eh

It took way more than one loose canon to dig that trench. Yes it was ridden early by all the trail users, yes it was a wet June, July, and yes I've seen mtn bikers widening the trail by riding around that trench instead of walking it. Yes there has been trail work done on it.
Who are you to tell people that motoing is a "inherently lazy, crude way" to check out the backcounty. Have you rode a moto? Ever? Pedaling a bike is hard lung, and leg work for sure, we've all done it and know the burn. Replace that 25lb hard tail with a 250lb bike and you'll see that it ain't so easy. Try standing the entire way UP Deadman's, or Block and Tackle, it ain't easy. Yes you have a motor to do the lung work, but it doesn't power your legs, arms, or core. You can experience more backcountry on a moto in few hours than spending all day on a mtn bike which is nice if you don't have all day to ride.
I've been more worked after a half day moto, than an all day ride, and I ride 3 times as much as I moto. I would say that 100% of bikers who have spent some time on moto would back me up, so I'm just going to guess that you haven't rode a moto, maybe a moped though? Have you been able to observe the a new trend of using moto trials tires on the rear of the bike? I saw 3 or 4 guys running that set up a few weeks ago on Bear. FYI the tires don't have big knobs on them for traction, but use a softer compound and tread pattern to gain traction on roots, and rocks.
What makes CB so good is everyone enjoys the backcountry and is tolerant of other users. What if CO. banned motos above 8K, and bikes below 8K. It would be good for you, but you'd have a lot more users on YOUR trails.

[zrm]

Originally Posted by SicBith

Way to get involved. Your right to say the motos did not build all the trails, but they did set up some good connector trails to the major routes.
Breck has an area known as the Golden Horseshoe. It's an area between Tiger Run Rd, and French Gulch. It's known mostly for motoing, but there are a lot of mtn bikers who ride there. It's a great example of shared, and seperate use. The motos stay in the Horseshoe area, and you see less of them on connector trails around the CO. Trail. (which they can't ride on). The moto group does 4 or 5 trail days in conjunction with the FS to ensure good riding, and enviromental conditions.

I was on the trail advisory committee for the GH so I'm well acquainted with the area and it's issues. There are still a lot of issues with travel management in that area, much of which is the motorized folks (1.) desire for trails that are too steep to be sustainable and (2) the continued creation of illegal trails.

Actually, the GH has been heavily mountain bikers for 25+ year. The Fall Classic mountain bike race first used GH trails in 1985 which is when I first started riding there. Although the area has been used by Jeeps and dirt bikes for a long time, the relatively heavy use and proliferation of moto user created trails is a relatively recent activity. Most of the trails the dirt bikers created came into being in the last 10-12 years.
SCORR has done some good things - although the vast majority of their trails have seen no work - and most of the guys really mean well and try hard, but to be honest, I still don't think most dirt bikers get it. It should be pointed out that all of the trails they created where created illegally, either on FS land, open space land, or private property but the moto folks reaction to that when it is brought up is more or less, "so what? That's the past and it's too late to do anything about it". From a strictly legal point of view, the people who put those trails in should be prosecuted, not rewarded by having their trails legitimized.
Almost all of those trails are unsustainable or in incredibly environmentally insensitive places like fen wetlands or critical wildlife habitat. Currently, the FS is seriously balking at embracing most of these unsustainable trails in their travel management plan because they feel there is no way anybody, no matter how well meaning they are, has the resources to maintain them to the standards that they are required by law to keep. The FS knows this and so does the county and town open space departments.
There has been a lot of bad, clueless, s**t going on in the GH from the OHV community for many years and all the managing agencies are a long way away from getting a handle on how they are going to manage the area.

All that said, I do support Moto use in appropriate areas, but I don't think they should be allowed to run amok everywhere and I do think they should be held accountable for their impacts and I do think there should be strict enforcement, (this applies to all users BTW) and I do think there should be noise restrictions. (Why do so many moto guys think everyone within a couple miles of them need to know they are there??)

For the most

[shoulderfu]

Kudo's to you for riding that thing offroad for as long as you have.Nice pix too,some of those ruts on teo must have swallowed you whole!
Your bike is proof that it's all about getting out to ride,not what you ride that counts

[brad h]

[QUOTE
Try standing the entire way UP Deadman's, or Block and Tackle, it ain't easy..[/quote]

So much for the sign at the bottom of Deadman's eh? The forest service rebuilt Deadman's seven or eight years ago, and the moto club put the "downhill only" sign there, but you obviously don't abide by it. I rode Deadman's many times the summer it was rebuilt and it took about ten minutes for all 32 switchbacks to get trenched to hell and back as soon the motos were unleashed on it. Block and Tackle, same story, was rutted 6ft deep the summer after the forest service rebuilt it. How about the meadow on Doubletop that is eleven tracks wide? How did that happen?

I rode motos quite a bit when I was a kid. Got pretty good at riding wheelies and launching gap jumps. But I never associated it with my manhood, as you obviously do, given your moped comment. I have never, nor will ever, ride one on alpine singletrack.

You can critique my lack of diplomacy all you want, just don't try and tell me that moto's aren't trail enemy #1. As has been said before, it's elementary physics. And your damn right I'm intolerant. I'm intolerant of the callous destruction of a trail system that is owned by the entirety of the American taxpayers but is being absolutely shredded by a vocal and politically well connected tiny minority. BTW, I have lots of friends who ride motos. To say we disagree on this issue would be an understatement. I'm sure most of them are responsible, but that's the problem with so much horsepower, it only takes a couple of roosting morons five minutes to destroy a trail forever, for everybody.

[lawnboyy]

Originally Posted by SicBith

Bullsh*t, Bullsh*t, Bullsh*t... eh

It took way more than one loose canon to dig that trench. Yes it was ridden early by all the trail users, yes it was a wet June, July, and yes I've seen mtn bikers widening the trail by riding around that trench instead of walking it. Yes there has been trail work done on it.
Who are you to tell people that motoing is a "inherently lazy, crude way" to check out the backcounty. Have you rode a moto? Ever? Pedaling a bike is hard lung, and leg work for sure, we've all done it and know the burn. Replace that 25lb hard tail with a 250lb bike and you'll see that it ain't so easy. Try standing the entire way UP Deadman's, or Block and Tackle, it ain't easy. Yes you have a motor to do the lung work, but it doesn't power your legs, arms, or core. You can experience more backcountry on a moto in few hours than spending all day on a mtn bike which is nice if you don't have all day to ride.
I've been more worked after a half day moto, than an all day ride, and I ride 3 times as much as I moto. I would say that 100% of bikers who have spent some time on moto would back me up, so I'm just going to guess that you haven't rode a moto, maybe a moped though? Have you been able to observe the a new trend of using moto trials tires on the rear of the bike? I saw 3 or 4 guys running that set up a few weeks ago on Bear. FYI the tires don't have big knobs on them for traction, but use a softer compound and tread pattern to gain traction on roots, and rocks.
What makes CB so good is everyone enjoys the backcountry and is tolerant of other users. What if CO. banned motos above 8K, and bikes below 8K. It would be good for you, but you'd have a lot more users on YOUR trails.

250 lb = rutting the hell out of single track. I'm fun with motos on jeep trails and fire roads, but I remember riding what could have been some killer downhills in '07 and '08 that were totally f*&#ed because motos had completely rutted it out. They don't let motos on most of the single track I've ridden in this country for this very reason, but they let them ruin a lot of good trail in crested butte which has by far the best trails I've ever been on.

[SkaredShtles]

Originally Posted by lawnboyy

250 lb = rutting the hell out of single track. I'm fun with motos on jeep trails and fire roads

Bingo.

This is the conclusion at which I've arrived.

I suppose there is some singletrack *somewhere* that will stand up to moto use... but it's not any of the singletrack in Crusty Butt.

[SicBith]

Originally Posted by lawnboyy

250 lb = rutting the hell out of single track. I'm fun with motos on jeep trails and fire roads, but I remember riding what could have been some killer downhills in '07 and '08 that were totally f*&#ed because motos had completely rutted it out. They don't let motos on most of the single track I've ridden in this country for this very reason, but they let them ruin a lot of good trail in crested butte which has by far the best trails I've ever been on.

Some guys don't grab a hand full of throttle. You don't need to spin your tires at all if you can use your throttle. Just like feathering your disc brake on a mtn bike, or adjusting your weight so your wheel doesn't spin when you climbing up hill. There are ways to ride without destroying trails just as they're ways to mtn bike without hurting trails.

[SicBith]

Originally Posted by SkaredShtles

Bingo.

This is the conclusion at which I've arrived.

I suppose there is some singletrack *somewhere* that will stand up to moto use... but it's not any of the singletrack in Crusty Butt.

Nice... Crusty Butt eh... Nice... Erosion happens everywhere my friend. It's not just a privilage of small mtn towns.

[SicBith]

Originally Posted by brad h

So much for the sign at the bottom of Deadman's eh? The forest service rebuilt Deadman's seven or eight years ago, and the moto club put the "downhill only" sign there, but you obviously don't abide by it. I rode Deadman's many times the summer it was rebuilt and it took about ten minutes for all 32 switchbacks to get trenched to hell and back as soon the motos were unleashed on it. Block and Tackle, same story, was rutted 6ft deep the summer after the forest service rebuilt it. How about the meadow on Doubletop that is eleven tracks wide? How did that happen?

I rode motos quite a bit when I was a kid. Got pretty good at riding wheelies and launching gap jumps. But I never associated it with my manhood, as you obviously do, given your moped comment. I have never, nor will ever, ride one on alpine singletrack.

You can critique my lack of diplomacy all you want, just don't try and tell me that moto's aren't trail enemy #1. As has been said before, it's elementary physics. And your damn right I'm intolerant. I'm intolerant of the callous destruction of a trail system that is owned by the entirety of the American taxpayers but is being absolutely shredded by a vocal and politically well connected tiny minority. BTW, I have lots of friends who ride motos. To say we disagree on this issue would be an understatement. I'm sure most of them are responsible, but that's the problem with so much horsepower, it only takes a couple of roosting morons five minutes to destroy a trail forever, for everybody.

So your against motos on singletrack???????
You've ridden a moto so you know how much work it can be. I'm glad we cleared that up. The physics thing was a given long before you mentioned that monkeys can figure it out. I'm glad you took physics in middle school to.
Trail enemy #1 is access my friend. Once a user group starts telling others that they can't use the trails and politics get involved the areas we love to ride in become wilderness areas where no one can ride, or FS trail managment studies come up and bikers both mtn, and moto stand to lose a lot of trail. That's why we all have rights to trails. We all pay taxes. Have you ridden Dark Canyon? I've hiked it and it would be a sweet ride, but someone had to say it was wilderness so I guess we'll never know how great of a ride it is.
If it took a couple of roosting morons five minutes to destroy a trail RFBD, DT, B&T, everything up Cement Creek, and Spring Creek would be wrecked. That just isn't the case though is it. I didn't know a moto would fit in 6ft deep ruts, let alone be able to trench one. Deadmans has an uphill from the Bear Creek side too. Remember it's just after that sweet Bear Creek DH. I've never riden up the switchbacks from the Cement Creek side on a moto. The cool thing about motors is they have throttles that you as a rider can control. You don't have to roost up everything, or around every corner. Ask your moto friends about trials tires. See what they have to say and I will guess they are interesting in trying them so they don't do damage to trails. Tolerence my friend that's what makes the Butte special. F with that and it turns into a Breckenridge, or even worse an Aspen. Is that what you want?

[kgbuds]

Originally Posted by SicBith

Trail enemy #1 is access my friend.

Finally you said something intelligent. I was starting to think that you really were kind of a monkey.

You are totally right that you can ride a moto without doing major damage to a trail. The problem is that not all riders know how to ride, or choose to ride in that manner.
Most of the damage done to trail happens when the trail is wet. When a trail gets slick and you are on a moto it doesn't matter how much you want to feather that throttle, you have to punch it or you won't get through. DAMAGE DONE! A mountain bike on the other hand will do a quick little spin out and then the rider will be walking. NO DAMAGE!

Maybe it's different in Summit, but around here CBMBA is very active in trail maintenance, while there is little help from the moto crowd. The motos will get together for a day and fix a mile or two of trail and call it good for the year, while they destroy many times that every year.

[SkaredShtles]

Originally Posted by SicBith

Trail enemy #1 is access my friend. Once a user group starts telling others that they can't use the trails and politics get involved the areas we love to ride in become wilderness areas where no one can ride

To be honest, with the trail destruction I witnessed - I'd rather see it off limits to BOTH motos and mt bikers. It was pretty much useless as a mt bike trail as a result of the moto damage and if you were hiking it you'd pretty much just have to stay completely off the trail...

[OTB]

i hear the biting flies actually breed inside moto mufflers and get most of their nutrition from moto fumes and unsuspecting mtbkrs...

[brad h]

Originally Posted by SicBith

So your against motos on singletrack???????
You've ridden a moto so you know how much work it can be. I'm glad we cleared that up. The physics thing was a given long before you mentioned that monkeys can figure it out. I'm glad you took physics in middle school to.
Trail enemy #1 is access my friend. Once a user group starts telling others that they can't use the trails and politics get involved the areas we love to ride in become wilderness areas where no one can ride, or FS trail managment studies come up and bikers both mtn, and moto stand to lose a lot of trail. That's why we all have rights to trails. We all pay taxes. Have you ridden Dark Canyon? I've hiked it and it would be a sweet ride, but someone had to say it was wilderness so I guess we'll never know how great of a ride it is.
If it took a couple of roosting morons five minutes to destroy a trail RFBD, DT, B&T, everything up Cement Creek, and Spring Creek would be wrecked. That just isn't the case though is it. I didn't know a moto would fit in 6ft deep ruts, let alone be able to trench one. Deadmans has an uphill from the Bear Creek side too. Remember it's just after that sweet Bear Creek DH. I've never riden up the switchbacks from the Cement Creek side on a moto. The cool thing about motors is they have throttles that you as a rider can control. You don't have to roost up everything, or around every corner. Ask your moto friends about trials tires. See what they have to say and I will guess they are interesting in trying them so they don't do damage to trails. Tolerence my friend that's what makes the Butte special. F with that and it turns into a Breckenridge, or even worse an Aspen. Is that what you want?

Look man, you make some decent points here in internetland, but they just fall to pieces when you observe what is actually going on in the Brush and Cement Creek drainages. As I've said before, I have a lot of friends that ride motos and I've had these debates with them. I've tried telling myself, "yes, we can all get along, everyone has a right to do there thing etc..."

Then I go on a bike ride, maybe Roaring Judy-Julie Andrews, Doubletop, Block in Tackle, #400? Doesn't really matter where I go, as long as motos have access to that trail I'm left with one question in my mind. One question that involves access, your trail enemy #1.

What gives one user group the right to destroy, maim, and effectively cripple a route so thoroughly that it effectively denies me(and everyone else without 60hp) access to that trail? I'm forced to get off and hike and or climb through massive ruts, around roost pits that could swallow a VW, so deep that they hold water weeks after a storm, or forced to choose a line through a pristine alpine meadow between the eleven different options so generously provided by the moto crowd? What gives one user group the right to leave such a tremendous impact and why should everyone else tolerate it? Why?

The more people that take up motoing the more I here about tolerance. We're not talking about tolerance in the traditional sense of racism, sexism, or homophobia. We're talking about tolerating 130 decibel (see much wildlife on that moto?) trench digging, trail braiding machines running amok all through the National Forest on singletrack that everyone else has a right to use. But the thing is, what used to be singletrack has largely been abandoned by other user groups because of the moto impact. How many non motoers do you see on Doubletop or Block-in-Tackle these days? Why is that?

"You're against motos on singletrack???????" I'm to assume by the seven question marks that you are astonished by the very notion? Look, I've been crystal clear on this. I'm against motos on alpine singletrack. Hartman's stands up to moto use very well. The singletrack down there stays firm, buff and fast. However, the softer stuff at the north end of the valley gets the sh!t kicked out of it by motos. The evidence is out there for all to see.

So yeah, call me an intolerant radical, but motos should be banned on singletrack above 8,000ft. Period. Name an alpine trail that sustains moto traffic without considerable moto-induced damage. Name one. And for the record, I know a ton of people who feel the same way but don't speak up because they are afraid of alienating the moto crowd.

Yeah, I'm sure its a lot of work to get up a 30* rutted out incline on a moto. You have to twist the throttle and hang on. And once a section of trail gets f@cked, unlike any other user, you can't walk that thing, you have only a reserve of horsepower and a blast of the throttle to get you through. That just compounds the problem. Crude. Tell me this. Can you ride up the Brush side of Block-and-Tackle without goosing the throttle? Without displacing a lot of soil? Doubtful. And for the record, there's a photo of the late Mike Martin, who was 6'5, standing in a moto caused rut in Block-in-Tackle the summer after the Forest Service rebuilt it and he's up to his neck. That's a fact.

You want tolerance? Have the moto crowd go rebuild the hundreds of miles of trail they rut, braid and pit out every year. Go climb up Doubletop with a shovel and a wheelbarrow and fill in all those gargantuan roost pits in the high trees. Put in one sustainable track in the meadow of eleven (I couldn't make that sh#t up if I tried). Then do it again and again after two idiots roost through it in monsoon season. Good luck with that.

[SicBith]

Originally Posted by SkaredShtles

To be honest, with the trail destruction I witnessed - I'd rather see it off limits to BOTH motos and mt bikers. It was pretty much useless as a mt bike trail as a result of the moto damage and if you were hiking it you'd pretty much just have to stay completely off the trail...

It sounds like you just threw you hands up and said fine I won't ride anymore. There is space for all of us, we just need to find solutions to the different kinds of damage caused by motos, horses, and bikers. What damage did you see, or witness?

[SkaredShtles]

Originally Posted by SicBith

It sounds like you just threw you hands up and said fine I won't ride anymore.

Hogwash. I'm throwing my hands up and saying get rid of the motos on singletrack.

There is space for all of us, we just need to find solutions to the different kinds of damage caused by motos, horses, and bikers. What damage did you see, or witness?

The damage was a series of trenches - hundreds of yards long (each one of them), up to 3 feet deep full of a muddy soup the consistency of diarrhea. And then there was the steep hill that was about 50 yards long that had approximately a dozen braided trails all over it - and each braid was at least a foot wide.

All this was after the 2(?) mile long U-shaped gully that had been carved right at the beginning of the trail. Even the 2 foot tall water diversion "berms" across the trail had grooves torn right through the middle of them down to the bottom of the "U" such that water diversion was no longer effectively maintained.

There is NO way that these trails can be fixed. The entire trail would need to be re-routed and even then I'm fairly convinced they would be in the same shape within 2 years...

It was a goddamned travesty like I've NEVER witnessed in 15 years of riding in the high country.

[brad h]

Originally Posted by SkaredShtles

The damage was a series of trenches - hundreds of yards long (each one of them), up to 3 feet deep full of a muddy soup the consistency of diarrhea. And then there was the steep hill that was about 50 yards long that had approximately a dozen braided trails all over it - and each braid was at least a foot wide.

All this was after the 2(?) mile long U-shaped gully that had been carved right at the beginning of the trail. Even the 2 foot tall water diversion "berms" across the trail had grooves torn right through the middle of them down to the bottom of the "U" such that water diversion was no longer effectively maintained.

There is NO way that these trails can be fixed. The entire trail would need to be re-routed and even then I'm fairly convinced they would be in the same shape within 2 years...

It was a goddamned travesty like I've NEVER witnessed in 15 years of riding in the high country.

Ditto. People who haven't ridden there must read what you or I have written and assume we're embellishing the facts, making it sound worse than it is, but nothing could be further from the truth. That trail network is so f@cked it's almost beyond belief. F@cking criminal. If the Forest Service weren't a bunch of patsies sucking of the tit of the ORV lobby it would of never been allowed to happen.

A couple friend's of mine took a bunch of photos of what you're describing to the Forest Service last summer and asked them what they were going to do about it. "Oh, those are the types of photos we use when asking for grant money, but those groups (ORV) give us money and expect us to leave the trails open to them". Pathetic.

[SkaredShtles]

Originally Posted by brad h

A couple friend's of mine took a bunch of photos of what you're describing to the Forest Service last summer and asked them what they were going to do about it. "Oh, those are the types of photos we use when asking for grant money, but those groups (ORV) give us money and expect us to leave the trails open to them". Pathetic.

I've got photos as well of some of the damage (not the worst of it, though). I contacted the FS in Gunnison shortly after we did the ride... I really should follow up with them again.