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Thread: Teocalli

  1. #1
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    Teocalli

    My buddy and I are in CB for the week. We come out every year and always have a great time. Yesterday we tried out Teocalli for the first time and I just have to say, holy cow what a climb! Anyway, we were curious if many people are riding this trail. It seemed really rutted out and having to wade across the creek was interesting. Is this the usual conditions for this trail? While it was fun and very challenging--went over my handlebars once on the way down--it seemed like a bit of a mess. Taking it easy today and hitting the Upper and Upper Upper Loops.

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    You must ride like OTB!

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    zrm
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    Dirt bikes are often not the friends of trails

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    Yeah, we came across a group of about 6 dirt bikes. Had a good day today, though. And tomorrow we will be hitting our favorite, 401. Hopefully I don't get to OTB on that!

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    OTB
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    coming from a guy with a screen name like ShoulderFU? hmmmm
    Be still and know.....

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    Yes, the climb is always that long...and the rest of it just isn't worth that kind of exertion, but maybe that's just me. Your mileage may vary.

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    Rode it a few weeks ago. It definitely seems a bit less ridden than some of the trails. Would've liked to have done Deer Creek, but the next day was Monarch Crest, so didn't feel like back-to-back epics, after doing Snodgrass-403-401 the day before.

    The climbs were rough on me. Descent was pretty good, but it's definitely one of the more technical that I've ridden in the area (IMO).

    How high was the creek? Rode through the first one

    IMG_0022.jpg

    and walked through the second one on the fire road back to the parking area. The second one was definitely deeper! But, just low-mid shin high?

    In parts of 403, though, you couldn't see the trail! I'm guessing that one also doesn't get a ton of bike traffic.

  8. #8
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    Sad to hear that Teocalli has degenerated over the years...

    Motos = bad for Crested Butte singletrack

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    Another semi-lurker's ride report...

    Yo, Teocalli is supposed to be tough, right? Killer climb, awesome views, killer descent. That's the word on the street, anyway. And when I rode it last week, I thought it lived up to that reputation exactly. So Bacon Boy and the rest, I wouldn't be too worried, it's still an amazing ride if you like that sort of thing (which, I gather, you do).

    The doubletrack ride up was kinda long but awfully purty.



    The road didn't so much cross the creek as merge with it for about 50 yards on the way up. All of maybe 6 inches deep max, but I managed to get bogged down somewhere along the way with my little tires and had to trudge the rest of the way through on foot. Oh well, I'm used to that.



    Partway up the singletrack climb it started to rain. I had expected to push a good bit of this part anyway, and the rain certainly didn't help. Builds character, right?



    The view off the backside of the ridge toward Pearl Pass and such was really impressive and ominous looking. No lightning around though, thank goodness, so I lingered a bit and soaked it all in. Tried to visualize the route to Aspen but couldn't. Don't think that ride's in the cards for this year... but maybe next?



    The upper part of the descent was downright east coast: rocky, rooty, steep, slimy, lush. A little taste of Pisgah (or maybe Slatyfork, given the rain) in Colorado.



    Okay, non-sequitur photo, but here's the bit of Slatyfork this reminded me of. Somewhat similar, no?



    The exposed lower part of the descent was smooth and has some seriously steep segments. The rain made some of those challenging to even walk down. Most of this would be cake to roll, and super fast, in the dry, but it became a total slip-n-slide in the wet (hint: go early, duh). A few parts may have had some moto damage, but overall it seemed to be in decent shape and not overly trenched out. I've certainly encountered worse, anyway.



    The creek on the return was about knee deep and made for a handy (and much needed) bike and body wash.



    I'm looking forward to returning one day and riding this gem in the dry. But even after my fairly surreal experience in the wet, I'd still highly recommend Teocalli to anyone who relishes a challenge. Along with its slightly-less-punishing cousin Doctor Park down the valley, these rides just have a different vibe than most of the Butte. They both remind me of moderately technical east coast trails, but magically overlaid onto big Rocky Mountain scenery. That's a sweet combination in my book.
    "Rollin' on 20s and 27.5s" ride reports and more at WWW.DEBCAR.COM : Debbie and Carey's RV Travel Website

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    Doctors is a great ride and agree that it reminds me of Pisgah/Slatyfork...thanks for the pics and info

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    Quote Originally Posted by SkaredShtles
    Sad to hear that Teocalli has degenerated over the years...

    Motos = bad for Crested Butte singletrack

    Motos made all the trails so they can't be that bad. They also do the majority of the trail work.
    Teo has not been beatin down that bad over the years. Those guy just haven't ridden it that much.
    you can get passed a dog... nobody fuks with a lion

  12. #12
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    I used to be a bit more agnostic regarding the motos, but after a couple experiences on trails over between Taylor Res & Dr Park as well as on Flag I've modified my stance. IMO motos should not be allowed on singletrack around there.

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    Tolerence my young friend. I've always been a mtn biker, but picked up a moto last year to check out new trails, and help expand my local network. I used to get pissed when they would come, but now I notice the mtn biker attitude more so than the moto attitude towards mtn bikers. I lived in CB for the better part of 10 yrs, and know a lot of the moto crowd up there. They're are for the most part a great group. They do a lot of trail work, (more than the mtn bikers) and deserve an equal share of singletrack. Yes trails can get torn up, and yes there can attitudes, but those faults are found on both sides of the coin. If the locals can get along with them motos I don't see why the visitors can't. After there might be a day when you need help fast, and a moto is the only way you're going to get it on top of Double Top, or RFBD, or Doctor's or any number of trails.
    you can get passed a dog... nobody fuks with a lion

  14. #14
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    Sorry - not swaying me. Ban the motos from the singletrack.

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    That's the mtn biking attitude I like to see. It's DBs like you that get mtn bikers banned from singletrack. You should spend some time in CB before you get all butt hurt about motos.
    you can get passed a dog... nobody fuks with a lion

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by SicBith
    That's the mtn biking attitude I like to see. It's DBs like you that get mtn bikers banned from singletrack. You should spend some time in CB before you get all butt hurt about motos.
    So you're saying it's a slippery slope? I choose to disagree with that point, yet you bring out the personal insults. Nice attitude from a CB moto, there.

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    We ran into motos on Teocalli a few weeks ago. They were cool, let us pass them until they had to pass back and off to the races.
    Craig, Durango CO
    "Lighten up PAL" ... King Cage

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    Quote Originally Posted by SkaredShtles
    So you're saying it's a slippery slope? I choose to disagree with that point, yet you bring out the personal insults. Nice attitude from a CB moto, there.
    That attitude came from a CB mtn biker. I moto in Summit Cty. Mtn biking gained access to a lot of land and trails by having tolerence for other trail users, and by organizing trail maintaince and building days. When mtn bikers come out and take a stance of wanting to limit trail use we start sounding like hikers and equestrians. Do you want to go back to those days? There is plenty of singletrack that motos can't access (CO Trail) go ride there if you don't like motos.
    you can get passed a dog... nobody fuks with a lion

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by SicBith
    That attitude came from a CB mtn biker. I moto in Summit Cty. Mtn biking gained access to a lot of land and trails by having tolerence for other trail users, and by organizing trail maintaince and building days. When mtn bikers come out and take a stance of wanting to limit trail use we start sounding like hikers and equestrians. Do you want to go back to those days? There is plenty of singletrack that motos can't access (CO Trail) go ride there if you don't like motos.
    Like I said, I used to be more tolerant... until I witnessed complete and utter trail destruction on a ride caused by motos. They completely DESTROYED the trail in more than one section that I rode. Hell - the trail at one point was raped (probably beyond repair) for literally HUNDREDS of yards.

    Let's just say it changed my viewpoint.

    Obviously YMMV.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SkaredShtles
    Like I said, I used to be more tolerant... until I witnessed complete and utter trail destruction on a ride caused by motos. They completely DESTROYED the trail in more than one section that I rode. Hell - the trail at one point was raped (probably beyond repair) for literally HUNDREDS of yards.

    Let's just say it changed my viewpoint.

    Obviously YMMV.
    You'll need to help me out with YMMV?????

    That's the beauty of dirt, you can rebuild anything. I've worked on 2 different trail days, and have seen invitations for 5 trail days by the local moto club. I haven't seen or heard of 1 trail day by mtn bikers who make up the majority of trail users in Summit Cty. I know, and have participated in bike trail days put together by the CB Mtn Bike Association. Have you taken the time to help maintain the trails you use? You seem to enjoy trashing other users, but do YOU take responsibility for the damage, however slight you believe it to be, caused by your use of the trails.
    you can get passed a dog... nobody fuks with a lion

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    Good job!

    I think I read on one of your threads that you are moving, or have moved to CB, or Gunni?

    CBMBA is having a trail day on Oct 5th and doing work on 403. This is a great chance for you to get involved in maintaining trails that you like to use.
    you can get passed a dog... nobody fuks with a lion

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    Hey check it out

    The moto group in CB worked on the Flag Creek decent on July 20th. I read it is riding good.

    CBMBA rebuilt the Deadman's switchbacks and put in a moto only DH section on the switchbacks. I haven't seen it yet as I rode RFBD from the Spring Creek side this year and came back to Flag on Reno Ridge.

    Get involved my man. We can all ***** about trail use, and abuse, but until you get involved your just part of the problem.
    you can get passed a dog... nobody fuks with a lion

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    Quote Originally Posted by SicBith
    Hey check it out

    The moto group in CB worked on the Flag Creek decent on July 20th. I read it is riding good.

    CBMBA rebuilt the Deadman's switchbacks and put in a moto only DH section on the switchbacks. I haven't seen it yet as I rode RFBD from the Spring Creek side this year and came back to Flag on Reno Ridge.

    Get involved my man. We can all ***** about trail use, and abuse, but until you get involved your just part of the problem.
    I don't think there is room for common sense and intelligent discourse on these here forums, but I appreciate your efforts to add some.
    Craig, Durango CO
    "Lighten up PAL" ... King Cage

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by SicBith
    <snip>

    Get involved my man. We can all ***** about trail use, and abuse, but until you get involved your just part of the problem.
    I have done trail work in the past. Sadly, with as much as I have vying for my time now I barely find time enough to get out and RIDE occasionally...

    I am supporting those who DO maintain my local trails - does that count?

  25. #25
    zrm
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    It's a simple matter of physics that a dirt bike that is heavier, has many times the power, and has a wider tire with deeper knobs will displace more soil that a bicycle. When I rode CB last year after a long absence I too noticed some of the trails around CB where chewed up more, in a manner consistent with dirt bike use. Motos are more powerful and have bigger tires than ever and unless the rider putts around at quarter throttle dirt bikes are going to chew up trails pretty bad - especially if the trails are steeper than a 7 or 8% grade. Some soil types are more durable than others, but you can't get away from the physics of the situation. Any trail manager knows that.
    That said, IMO there is room for some moto specific or shared use trails as long as it does not result in degradation of the trails to the point where it results in resource damage such as sedimentation of streams, widening of trails to the point where the loss of plant life is significant, destruction of riparian areas, off trail use. or degradation of the trail to the point where it is not longer a positive recreational experience for the intended users.
    Personally I think if one user group degrades the trial to the point that it is no longer a viable trail for other users, then the problem needs to be fixed, either by modification of how the offending group uses the trail, modifying the trail, or if the first two options don't correct the problem, ban the offending users.

    PS: Motorcycles did not build "all the trails" in the CB area. many of those trail go back to the CCC days. Others where built later by the FS. Many are old mining routes.

    PPS: I did four official trail work days this year and several unofficial days of clearing blowdown, cleaning out water bars and blocking off braids.

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    Those damn folding bikes w/20" wheels really seem to do the most damage,and dont get me started on their kickstands....endo'ed bad once on those craters they leave behind.
    Always seem to be stopping to take pix w/their earth killers in the MIDDLE of the trail!

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by zrm
    It's a simple matter of physics that a dirt bike that is heavier, has many times the power, and has a wider tire with deeper knobs will displace more soil that a bicycle. When I rode CB last year after a long absence I too noticed some of the trails around CB where chewed up more, in a manner consistent with dirt bike use. Motos are more powerful and have bigger tires than ever and unless the rider putts around at quarter throttle dirt bikes are going to chew up trails pretty bad - especially if the trails are steeper than a 7 or 8% grade. Some soil types are more durable than others, but you can't get away from the physics of the situation. Any trail manager knows that.
    That said, IMO there is room for some moto specific or shared use trails as long as it does not result in degradation of the trails to the point where it results in resource damage such as sedimentation of streams, widening of trails to the point where the loss of plant life is significant, destruction of riparian areas, off trail use. or degradation of the trail to the point where it is not longer a positive recreational experience for the intended users.
    Personally I think if one user group degrades the trial to the point that it is no longer a viable trail for other users, then the problem needs to be fixed, either by modification of how the offending group uses the trail, modifying the trail, or if the first two options don't correct the problem, ban the offending users.

    PS: Motorcycles did not build "all the trails" in the CB area. many of those trail go back to the CCC days. Others where built later by the FS. Many are old mining routes.

    PPS: I did four official trail work days this year and several unofficial days of clearing blowdown, cleaning out water bars and blocking off braids.
    Very diplomatically and well stated, my friend!

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    Please...

    Quote Originally Posted by SicBith
    Motos made all the trails so they can't be that bad. They also do the majority of the trail work.
    Bullsh!t, and more bullsh!t, repeat it enough and it will become true. Old myths. Check your history, ever hear of the Great Depression? That's when the CCC, WPA and other FDR created work groups built most of the trails. As far as trail work, they don't, but should do most of the trail work as they do the vast majority of the damage. There's a direct correlation between horsepower and rutting, aka, trail damage. A monkey could figure that out. Ride Reno this year? How did those narrow 18inch deep ruts get laid into the beginning of the Bear downhill? Maybe 10,000 super-fit mountain bikers all took turns spinning out there until they were blue-in-face...but I doubt it. The truth is, one, that's right one, dipsh!t with sixty horsepower rode it way early and f@cked it up for everyone. One dipsh!t mountain biker couldn't possibly do that much damage. Moto's have no place in the alpine. It's too soft, too fragile an environment to sustain idiots with too much horsepower. Ultimately, it's an inherently lazy, crude way to experience the Colorado backcountry. Ban 'em above 8k ft. Period. Oh yeah, I too, have spent the better part of the last decade in CB and my opinions are consistently backed up by basic observations.
    Last edited by dances_on_pedals; 08-20-2008 at 07:40 AM.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by shoulderfu
    Those damn folding bikes w/20" wheels really seem to do the most damage,and dont get me started on their kickstands....endo'ed bad once on those craters they leave behind.
    Always seem to be stopping to take pix w/their earth killers in the MIDDLE of the trail!
    Ain't that the truth. Can't tell ya how many times I've wiped out because of those stupid little wheels. Ban those deathtraps. Too much torque.

    But kickstands R kool. I've always figured if I'm gonna lug the damn thing around, I might as well use it at every opportunity. However I will try to mitigate my cratering in the future. After almost 3000 miles offroad now I cannot imagine how many killer potholes I must have left in my wake. Thanks for bringing the issue to my attention.
    "Rollin' on 20s and 27.5s" ride reports and more at WWW.DEBCAR.COM : Debbie and Carey's RV Travel Website

  30. #30
    zrm
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    Quote Originally Posted by brad h
    Bullsh!t, and more bullsh!t, repeat it enough and it will become true. Old myths. Check your history, ever hear of the Great Depression? That's when the CCC, WPA and other FDR created work groups built most of the trails. As far as trail work, they don't, but should do most of the trail work as they do the vast majority of the damage. There's a direct correlation between horsepower and rutting, aka, trail damage. A monkey could figure that out. Ride Reno this year? How did those narrow 18inch deep ruts get laid into the beginning of the Bear downhill? Maybe a 10,000 super-fit mountain bikers all took turns spinning out there until they were blue-in-face...but I doubt it. The truth is, one, that's right one, dipsh!t with sixty horsepower rode it way early and f@cked it up for everyone. One dipsh!t mountain biker couldn't possibly do that much damage. Moto's have no place in the alpine. It's too soft, too fragile an environment to sustain idiots with too much horsepower. Ultimately, it's an inherently lazy, crude way to experience the Colorado backcountry. Ban 'em below 8k ft. Period. Oh yeah, I too, have spent the better part of the last decade in CB and my opinions are consistently backed up by basic observations.
    You'll never get your point across if you keep sugar coating it like that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zrm
    You'll never get your point across if you keep sugar coating it like that.
    Yeah, well, the edges were definitely sharpened by my blood alcohol content last night. But I stand by everything I wrote.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cbrossman
    I don't think there is room for common sense and intelligent discourse on these here forums, but I appreciate your efforts to add some.
    suck it Tribeck. You f'n, f'ed, sh&tball hippy
    you can get passed a dog... nobody fuks with a lion

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    Quote Originally Posted by zrm
    It's a simple matter of physics that a dirt bike that is heavier, has many times the power, and has a wider tire with deeper knobs will displace more soil that a bicycle. When I rode CB last year after a long absence I too noticed some of the trails around CB where chewed up more, in a manner consistent with dirt bike use. Motos are more powerful and have bigger tires than ever and unless the rider putts around at quarter throttle dirt bikes are going to chew up trails pretty bad - especially if the trails are steeper than a 7 or 8% grade. Some soil types are more durable than others, but you can't get away from the physics of the situation. Any trail manager knows that.
    That said, IMO there is room for some moto specific or shared use trails as long as it does not result in degradation of the trails to the point where it results in resource damage such as sedimentation of streams, widening of trails to the point where the loss of plant life is significant, destruction of riparian areas, off trail use. or degradation of the trail to the point where it is not longer a positive recreational experience for the intended users.
    Personally I think if one user group degrades the trial to the point that it is no longer a viable trail for other users, then the problem needs to be fixed, either by modification of how the offending group uses the trail, modifying the trail, or if the first two options don't correct the problem, ban the offending users.

    PS: Motorcycles did not build "all the trails" in the CB area. many of those trail go back to the CCC days. Others where built later by the FS. Many are old mining routes.

    PPS: I did four official trail work days this year and several unofficial days of clearing blowdown, cleaning out water bars and blocking off braids.
    Way to get involved. Your right to say the motos did not build all the trails, but they did set up some good connector trails to the major routes.
    Breck has an area known as the Golden Horseshoe. It's an area between Tiger Run Rd, and French Gultch. It's known mostly for motoing, but there are a lot of mtn bikers who ride there. It's a great example of shared, and seperate use. The motos stay in the Horseshoe area, and you see less of them on connector trails around the CO. Trail. (which they can't ride on). The moto group does 4 or 5 trail days in conjunction with the FS to ensure good riding, and enviromental conditions.
    you can get passed a dog... nobody fuks with a lion

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by brad h
    Bullsh!t, and more bullsh!t, repeat it enough and it will become true. Old myths. Check your history, ever hear of the Great Depression? That's when the CCC, WPA and other FDR created work groups built most of the trails. As far as trail work, they don't, but should do most of the trail work as they do the vast majority of the damage. There's a direct correlation between horsepower and rutting, aka, trail damage. A monkey could figure that out. Ride Reno this year? How did those narrow 18inch deep ruts get laid into the beginning of the Bear downhill? Maybe 10,000 super-fit mountain bikers all took turns spinning out there until they were blue-in-face...but I doubt it. The truth is, one, that's right one, dipsh!t with sixty horsepower rode it way early and f@cked it up for everyone. One dipsh!t mountain biker couldn't possibly do that much damage. Moto's have no place in the alpine. It's too soft, too fragile an environment to sustain idiots with too much horsepower. Ultimately, it's an inherently lazy, crude way to experience the Colorado backcountry. Ban 'em above 8k ft. Period. Oh yeah, I too, have spent the better part of the last decade in CB and my opinions are consistently backed up by basic observations.
    Bullsh*t, Bullsh*t, Bullsh*t... eh

    It took way more than one loose canon to dig that trench. Yes it was ridden early by all the trail users, yes it was a wet June, July, and yes I've seen mtn bikers widening the trail by riding around that trench instead of walking it. Yes there has been trail work done on it.
    Who are you to tell people that motoing is a "inherently lazy, crude way" to check out the backcounty. Have you rode a moto? Ever? Pedaling a bike is hard lung, and leg work for sure, we've all done it and know the burn. Replace that 25lb hard tail with a 250lb bike and you'll see that it ain't so easy. Try standing the entire way UP Deadman's, or Block and Tackle, it ain't easy. Yes you have a motor to do the lung work, but it doesn't power your legs, arms, or core. You can experience more backcountry on a moto in few hours than spending all day on a mtn bike which is nice if you don't have all day to ride.
    I've been more worked after a half day moto, than an all day ride, and I ride 3 times as much as I moto. I would say that 100% of bikers who have spent some time on moto would back me up, so I'm just going to guess that you haven't rode a moto, maybe a moped though? Have you been able to observe the a new trend of using moto trials tires on the rear of the bike? I saw 3 or 4 guys running that set up a few weeks ago on Bear. FYI the tires don't have big knobs on them for traction, but use a softer compound and tread pattern to gain traction on roots, and rocks.
    What makes CB so good is everyone enjoys the backcountry and is tolerant of other users. What if CO. banned motos above 8K, and bikes below 8K. It would be good for you, but you'd have a lot more users on YOUR trails.
    you can get passed a dog... nobody fuks with a lion

  35. #35
    zrm
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    Quote Originally Posted by SicBith
    Way to get involved. Your right to say the motos did not build all the trails, but they did set up some good connector trails to the major routes.
    Breck has an area known as the Golden Horseshoe. It's an area between Tiger Run Rd, and French Gulch. It's known mostly for motoing, but there are a lot of mtn bikers who ride there. It's a great example of shared, and seperate use. The motos stay in the Horseshoe area, and you see less of them on connector trails around the CO. Trail. (which they can't ride on). The moto group does 4 or 5 trail days in conjunction with the FS to ensure good riding, and enviromental conditions.
    I was on the trail advisory committee for the GH so I'm well acquainted with the area and it's issues. There are still a lot of issues with travel management in that area, much of which is the motorized folks (1.) desire for trails that are too steep to be sustainable and (2) the continued creation of illegal trails.

    Actually, the GH has been heavily mountain bikers for 25+ year. The Fall Classic mountain bike race first used GH trails in 1985 which is when I first started riding there. Although the area has been used by Jeeps and dirt bikes for a long time, the relatively heavy use and proliferation of moto user created trails is a relatively recent activity. Most of the trails the dirt bikers created came into being in the last 10-12 years.
    SCORR has done some good things - although the vast majority of their trails have seen no work - and most of the guys really mean well and try hard, but to be honest, I still don't think most dirt bikers get it. It should be pointed out that all of the trails they created where created illegally, either on FS land, open space land, or private property but the moto folks reaction to that when it is brought up is more or less, "so what? That's the past and it's too late to do anything about it". From a strictly legal point of view, the people who put those trails in should be prosecuted, not rewarded by having their trails legitimized.
    Almost all of those trails are unsustainable or in incredibly environmentally insensitive places like fen wetlands or critical wildlife habitat. Currently, the FS is seriously balking at embracing most of these unsustainable trails in their travel management plan because they feel there is no way anybody, no matter how well meaning they are, has the resources to maintain them to the standards that they are required by law to keep. The FS knows this and so does the county and town open space departments.
    There has been a lot of bad, clueless, s**t going on in the GH from the OHV community for many years and all the managing agencies are a long way away from getting a handle on how they are going to manage the area.

    All that said, I do support Moto use in appropriate areas, but I don't think they should be allowed to run amok everywhere and I do think they should be held accountable for their impacts and I do think there should be strict enforcement, (this applies to all users BTW) and I do think there should be noise restrictions. (Why do so many moto guys think everyone within a couple miles of them need to know they are there??)

    For the most

  36. #36
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    Kudo's to you for riding that thing offroad for as long as you have.Nice pix too,some of those ruts on teo must have swallowed you whole!
    Your bike is proof that it's all about getting out to ride,not what you ride that counts

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    what a tangled web...

    [QUOTE
    Try standing the entire way UP Deadman's, or Block and Tackle, it ain't easy..[/QUOTE]

    So much for the sign at the bottom of Deadman's eh? The forest service rebuilt Deadman's seven or eight years ago, and the moto club put the "downhill only" sign there, but you obviously don't abide by it. I rode Deadman's many times the summer it was rebuilt and it took about ten minutes for all 32 switchbacks to get trenched to hell and back as soon the motos were unleashed on it. Block and Tackle, same story, was rutted 6ft deep the summer after the forest service rebuilt it. How about the meadow on Doubletop that is eleven tracks wide? How did that happen?

    I rode motos quite a bit when I was a kid. Got pretty good at riding wheelies and launching gap jumps. But I never associated it with my manhood, as you obviously do, given your moped comment. I have never, nor will ever, ride one on alpine singletrack.

    You can critique my lack of diplomacy all you want, just don't try and tell me that moto's aren't trail enemy #1. As has been said before, it's elementary physics. And your damn right I'm intolerant. I'm intolerant of the callous destruction of a trail system that is owned by the entirety of the American taxpayers but is being absolutely shredded by a vocal and politically well connected tiny minority. BTW, I have lots of friends who ride motos. To say we disagree on this issue would be an understatement. I'm sure most of them are responsible, but that's the problem with so much horsepower, it only takes a couple of roosting morons five minutes to destroy a trail forever, for everybody.
    Last edited by dances_on_pedals; 08-20-2008 at 05:14 PM.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by SicBith
    Bullsh*t, Bullsh*t, Bullsh*t... eh

    It took way more than one loose canon to dig that trench. Yes it was ridden early by all the trail users, yes it was a wet June, July, and yes I've seen mtn bikers widening the trail by riding around that trench instead of walking it. Yes there has been trail work done on it.
    Who are you to tell people that motoing is a "inherently lazy, crude way" to check out the backcounty. Have you rode a moto? Ever? Pedaling a bike is hard lung, and leg work for sure, we've all done it and know the burn. Replace that 25lb hard tail with a 250lb bike and you'll see that it ain't so easy. Try standing the entire way UP Deadman's, or Block and Tackle, it ain't easy. Yes you have a motor to do the lung work, but it doesn't power your legs, arms, or core. You can experience more backcountry on a moto in few hours than spending all day on a mtn bike which is nice if you don't have all day to ride.
    I've been more worked after a half day moto, than an all day ride, and I ride 3 times as much as I moto. I would say that 100% of bikers who have spent some time on moto would back me up, so I'm just going to guess that you haven't rode a moto, maybe a moped though? Have you been able to observe the a new trend of using moto trials tires on the rear of the bike? I saw 3 or 4 guys running that set up a few weeks ago on Bear. FYI the tires don't have big knobs on them for traction, but use a softer compound and tread pattern to gain traction on roots, and rocks.
    What makes CB so good is everyone enjoys the backcountry and is tolerant of other users. What if CO. banned motos above 8K, and bikes below 8K. It would be good for you, but you'd have a lot more users on YOUR trails.

    250 lb = rutting the hell out of single track. I'm fun with motos on jeep trails and fire roads, but I remember riding what could have been some killer downhills in '07 and '08 that were totally f*&#ed because motos had completely rutted it out. They don't let motos on most of the single track I've ridden in this country for this very reason, but they let them ruin a lot of good trail in crested butte which has by far the best trails I've ever been on.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by lawnboyy
    250 lb = rutting the hell out of single track. I'm fun with motos on jeep trails and fire roads
    Bingo.

    This is the conclusion at which I've arrived.

    I suppose there is some singletrack *somewhere* that will stand up to moto use... but it's not any of the singletrack in Crusty Butt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawnboyy
    250 lb = rutting the hell out of single track. I'm fun with motos on jeep trails and fire roads, but I remember riding what could have been some killer downhills in '07 and '08 that were totally f*&#ed because motos had completely rutted it out. They don't let motos on most of the single track I've ridden in this country for this very reason, but they let them ruin a lot of good trail in crested butte which has by far the best trails I've ever been on.
    Some guys don't grab a hand full of throttle. You don't need to spin your tires at all if you can use your throttle. Just like feathering your disc brake on a mtn bike, or adjusting your weight so your wheel doesn't spin when you climbing up hill. There are ways to ride without destroying trails just as they're ways to mtn bike without hurting trails.
    you can get passed a dog... nobody fuks with a lion

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkaredShtles
    Bingo.

    This is the conclusion at which I've arrived.

    I suppose there is some singletrack *somewhere* that will stand up to moto use... but it's not any of the singletrack in Crusty Butt.
    Nice... Crusty Butt eh... Nice... Erosion happens everywhere my friend. It's not just a privilage of small mtn towns.
    you can get passed a dog... nobody fuks with a lion

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by brad h
    So much for the sign at the bottom of Deadman's eh? The forest service rebuilt Deadman's seven or eight years ago, and the moto club put the "downhill only" sign there, but you obviously don't abide by it. I rode Deadman's many times the summer it was rebuilt and it took about ten minutes for all 32 switchbacks to get trenched to hell and back as soon the motos were unleashed on it. Block and Tackle, same story, was rutted 6ft deep the summer after the forest service rebuilt it. How about the meadow on Doubletop that is eleven tracks wide? How did that happen?

    I rode motos quite a bit when I was a kid. Got pretty good at riding wheelies and launching gap jumps. But I never associated it with my manhood, as you obviously do, given your moped comment. I have never, nor will ever, ride one on alpine singletrack.

    You can critique my lack of diplomacy all you want, just don't try and tell me that moto's aren't trail enemy #1. As has been said before, it's elementary physics. And your damn right I'm intolerant. I'm intolerant of the callous destruction of a trail system that is owned by the entirety of the American taxpayers but is being absolutely shredded by a vocal and politically well connected tiny minority. BTW, I have lots of friends who ride motos. To say we disagree on this issue would be an understatement. I'm sure most of them are responsible, but that's the problem with so much horsepower, it only takes a couple of roosting morons five minutes to destroy a trail forever, for everybody.
    So your against motos on singletrack???????
    You've ridden a moto so you know how much work it can be. I'm glad we cleared that up. The physics thing was a given long before you mentioned that monkeys can figure it out. I'm glad you took physics in middle school to.
    Trail enemy #1 is access my friend. Once a user group starts telling others that they can't use the trails and politics get involved the areas we love to ride in become wilderness areas where no one can ride, or FS trail managment studies come up and bikers both mtn, and moto stand to lose a lot of trail. That's why we all have rights to trails. We all pay taxes. Have you ridden Dark Canyon? I've hiked it and it would be a sweet ride, but someone had to say it was wilderness so I guess we'll never know how great of a ride it is.
    If it took a couple of roosting morons five minutes to destroy a trail RFBD, DT, B&T, everything up Cement Creek, and Spring Creek would be wrecked. That just isn't the case though is it. I didn't know a moto would fit in 6ft deep ruts, let alone be able to trench one. Deadmans has an uphill from the Bear Creek side too. Remember it's just after that sweet Bear Creek DH. I've never riden up the switchbacks from the Cement Creek side on a moto. The cool thing about motors is they have throttles that you as a rider can control. You don't have to roost up everything, or around every corner. Ask your moto friends about trials tires. See what they have to say and I will guess they are interesting in trying them so they don't do damage to trails. Tolerence my friend that's what makes the Butte special. F with that and it turns into a Breckenridge, or even worse an Aspen. Is that what you want?
    you can get passed a dog... nobody fuks with a lion

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by SicBith
    Trail enemy #1 is access my friend.
    Finally you said something intelligent. I was starting to think that you really were kind of a monkey.

    You are totally right that you can ride a moto without doing major damage to a trail. The problem is that not all riders know how to ride, or choose to ride in that manner.
    Most of the damage done to trail happens when the trail is wet. When a trail gets slick and you are on a moto it doesn't matter how much you want to feather that throttle, you have to punch it or you won't get through. DAMAGE DONE! A mountain bike on the other hand will do a quick little spin out and then the rider will be walking. NO DAMAGE!

    Maybe it's different in Summit, but around here CBMBA is very active in trail maintenance, while there is little help from the moto crowd. The motos will get together for a day and fix a mile or two of trail and call it good for the year, while they destroy many times that every year.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by SicBith
    <snip>
    Trail enemy #1 is access my friend. Once a user group starts telling others that they can't use the trails and politics get involved the areas we love to ride in become wilderness areas where no one can ride
    To be honest, with the trail destruction I witnessed - I'd rather see it off limits to BOTH motos and mt bikers. It was pretty much useless as a mt bike trail as a result of the moto damage and if you were hiking it you'd pretty much just have to stay completely off the trail...

  45. #45
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    i hear the biting flies actually breed inside moto mufflers and get most of their nutrition from moto fumes and unsuspecting mtbkrs...
    Be still and know.....

  46. #46
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    facts are facts

    Quote Originally Posted by SicBith
    So your against motos on singletrack???????
    You've ridden a moto so you know how much work it can be. I'm glad we cleared that up. The physics thing was a given long before you mentioned that monkeys can figure it out. I'm glad you took physics in middle school to.
    Trail enemy #1 is access my friend. Once a user group starts telling others that they can't use the trails and politics get involved the areas we love to ride in become wilderness areas where no one can ride, or FS trail managment studies come up and bikers both mtn, and moto stand to lose a lot of trail. That's why we all have rights to trails. We all pay taxes. Have you ridden Dark Canyon? I've hiked it and it would be a sweet ride, but someone had to say it was wilderness so I guess we'll never know how great of a ride it is.
    If it took a couple of roosting morons five minutes to destroy a trail RFBD, DT, B&T, everything up Cement Creek, and Spring Creek would be wrecked. That just isn't the case though is it. I didn't know a moto would fit in 6ft deep ruts, let alone be able to trench one. Deadmans has an uphill from the Bear Creek side too. Remember it's just after that sweet Bear Creek DH. I've never riden up the switchbacks from the Cement Creek side on a moto. The cool thing about motors is they have throttles that you as a rider can control. You don't have to roost up everything, or around every corner. Ask your moto friends about trials tires. See what they have to say and I will guess they are interesting in trying them so they don't do damage to trails. Tolerence my friend that's what makes the Butte special. F with that and it turns into a Breckenridge, or even worse an Aspen. Is that what you want?
    Look man, you make some decent points here in internetland, but they just fall to pieces when you observe what is actually going on in the Brush and Cement Creek drainages. As I've said before, I have a lot of friends that ride motos and I've had these debates with them. I've tried telling myself, "yes, we can all get along, everyone has a right to do there thing etc..."

    Then I go on a bike ride, maybe Roaring Judy-Julie Andrews, Doubletop, Block in Tackle, #400? Doesn't really matter where I go, as long as motos have access to that trail I'm left with one question in my mind. One question that involves access, your trail enemy #1.

    What gives one user group the right to destroy, maim, and effectively cripple a route so thoroughly that it effectively denies me(and everyone else without 60hp) access to that trail? I'm forced to get off and hike and or climb through massive ruts, around roost pits that could swallow a VW, so deep that they hold water weeks after a storm, or forced to choose a line through a pristine alpine meadow between the eleven different options so generously provided by the moto crowd? What gives one user group the right to leave such a tremendous impact and why should everyone else tolerate it? Why?

    The more people that take up motoing the more I here about tolerance. We're not talking about tolerance in the traditional sense of racism, sexism, or homophobia. We're talking about tolerating 130 decibel (see much wildlife on that moto?) trench digging, trail braiding machines running amok all through the National Forest on singletrack that everyone else has a right to use. But the thing is, what used to be singletrack has largely been abandoned by other user groups because of the moto impact. How many non motoers do you see on Doubletop or Block-in-Tackle these days? Why is that?

    "You're against motos on singletrack???????" I'm to assume by the seven question marks that you are astonished by the very notion? Look, I've been crystal clear on this. I'm against motos on alpine singletrack. Hartman's stands up to moto use very well. The singletrack down there stays firm, buff and fast. However, the softer stuff at the north end of the valley gets the sh!t kicked out of it by motos. The evidence is out there for all to see.

    So yeah, call me an intolerant radical, but motos should be banned on singletrack above 8,000ft. Period. Name an alpine trail that sustains moto traffic without considerable moto-induced damage. Name one. And for the record, I know a ton of people who feel the same way but don't speak up because they are afraid of alienating the moto crowd.

    Yeah, I'm sure its a lot of work to get up a 30* rutted out incline on a moto. You have to twist the throttle and hang on. And once a section of trail gets f@cked, unlike any other user, you can't walk that thing, you have only a reserve of horsepower and a blast of the throttle to get you through. That just compounds the problem. Crude. Tell me this. Can you ride up the Brush side of Block-and-Tackle without goosing the throttle? Without displacing a lot of soil? Doubtful. And for the record, there's a photo of the late Mike Martin, who was 6'5, standing in a moto caused rut in Block-in-Tackle the summer after the Forest Service rebuilt it and he's up to his neck. That's a fact.

    You want tolerance? Have the moto crowd go rebuild the hundreds of miles of trail they rut, braid and pit out every year. Go climb up Doubletop with a shovel and a wheelbarrow and fill in all those gargantuan roost pits in the high trees. Put in one sustainable track in the meadow of eleven (I couldn't make that sh#t up if I tried). Then do it again and again after two idiots roost through it in monsoon season. Good luck with that.
    Last edited by dances_on_pedals; 08-21-2008 at 11:40 AM.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkaredShtles
    To be honest, with the trail destruction I witnessed - I'd rather see it off limits to BOTH motos and mt bikers. It was pretty much useless as a mt bike trail as a result of the moto damage and if you were hiking it you'd pretty much just have to stay completely off the trail...

    It sounds like you just threw you hands up and said fine I won't ride anymore. There is space for all of us, we just need to find solutions to the different kinds of damage caused by motos, horses, and bikers. What damage did you see, or witness?
    you can get passed a dog... nobody fuks with a lion

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by SicBith
    It sounds like you just threw you hands up and said fine I won't ride anymore.
    Hogwash. I'm throwing my hands up and saying get rid of the motos on singletrack.

    There is space for all of us, we just need to find solutions to the different kinds of damage caused by motos, horses, and bikers. What damage did you see, or witness?
    The damage was a series of trenches - hundreds of yards long (each one of them), up to 3 feet deep full of a muddy soup the consistency of diarrhea. And then there was the steep hill that was about 50 yards long that had approximately a dozen braided trails all over it - and each braid was at least a foot wide.

    All this was after the 2(?) mile long U-shaped gully that had been carved right at the beginning of the trail. Even the 2 foot tall water diversion "berms" across the trail had grooves torn right through the middle of them down to the bottom of the "U" such that water diversion was no longer effectively maintained.

    There is NO way that these trails can be fixed. The entire trail would need to be re-routed and even then I'm fairly convinced they would be in the same shape within 2 years...

    It was a goddamned travesty like I've NEVER witnessed in 15 years of riding in the high country.

  49. #49
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    welcome to cement creek

    Quote Originally Posted by SkaredShtles


    The damage was a series of trenches - hundreds of yards long (each one of them), up to 3 feet deep full of a muddy soup the consistency of diarrhea. And then there was the steep hill that was about 50 yards long that had approximately a dozen braided trails all over it - and each braid was at least a foot wide.

    All this was after the 2(?) mile long U-shaped gully that had been carved right at the beginning of the trail. Even the 2 foot tall water diversion "berms" across the trail had grooves torn right through the middle of them down to the bottom of the "U" such that water diversion was no longer effectively maintained.

    There is NO way that these trails can be fixed. The entire trail would need to be re-routed and even then I'm fairly convinced they would be in the same shape within 2 years...

    It was a goddamned travesty like I've NEVER witnessed in 15 years of riding in the high country.
    Ditto. People who haven't ridden there must read what you or I have written and assume we're embellishing the facts, making it sound worse than it is, but nothing could be further from the truth. That trail network is so f@cked it's almost beyond belief. F@cking criminal. If the Forest Service weren't a bunch of patsies sucking of the tit of the ORV lobby it would of never been allowed to happen.

    A couple friend's of mine took a bunch of photos of what you're describing to the Forest Service last summer and asked them what they were going to do about it. "Oh, those are the types of photos we use when asking for grant money, but those groups (ORV) give us money and expect us to leave the trails open to them". Pathetic.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by brad h
    <snip>
    A couple friend's of mine took a bunch of photos of what you're describing to the Forest Service last summer and asked them what they were going to do about it. "Oh, those are the types of photos we use when asking for grant money, but those groups (ORV) give us money and expect us to leave the trails open to them". Pathetic.
    I've got photos as well of some of the damage (not the worst of it, though). I contacted the FS in Gunnison shortly after we did the ride... I really should follow up with them again.

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by brad h
    Look man, you make some decent points here in internetland, but they just fall to pieces when you observe what is actually going on in the Brush and Cement Creek drainages. As I've said before, I have a lot of friends that ride motos and I've had these debates with them. I've tried telling myself, "yes, we can all get along, everyone has a right to do there thing etc..."

    Then I go on a bike ride, maybe Roaring Judy-Julie Andrews, Doubletop, Block in Tackle, #400? Doesn't really matter where I go, as long as motos have access to that trail I'm left with one question in my mind. One question that involves access, your trail enemy #1.

    What gives one user group the right to destroy, maim, and effectively cripple a route so thoroughly that it effectively denies me(and everyone else without 60hp) access to that trail? I'm forced to get off and hike and or climb through massive ruts, around roost pits that could swallow a VW, so deep that they hold water weeks after a storm, or forced to choose a line through a pristine alpine meadow between the eleven different options so generously provided by the moto crowd? What gives one user group the right to leave such a tremendous impact and why should everyone else tolerate it? Why?

    The more people that take up motoing the more I here about tolerance. We're not talking about tolerance in the traditional sense of racism, sexism, or homophobia. We're talking about tolerating 130 decibel (see much wildlife on that moto?) trench digging, trail braiding machines running amok all through the National Forest on singletrack that everyone else has a right to use. But the thing is, what used to be singletrack has largely been abandoned by other user groups because of the moto impact. How many non motoers do you see on Doubletop or Block-in-Tackle these days? Why is that?

    "You're against motos on singletrack???????" I'm to assume by the seven question marks that you are astonished by the very notion? Look, I've been crystal clear on this. I'm against motos on alpine singletrack. Hartman's stands up to moto use very well. The singletrack down there stays firm, buff and fast. However, the softer stuff at the north end of the valley gets the sh!t kicked out of it by motos. The evidence is out there for all to see.

    So yeah, call me an intolerant radical, but motos should be banned on singletrack above 8,000ft. Period. Name an alpine trail that sustains moto traffic without considerable moto-induced damage. Name one. And for the record, I know a ton of people who feel the same way but don't speak up because they are afraid of alienating the moto crowd.

    Yeah, I'm sure its a lot of work to get up a 30* rutted out incline on a moto. You have to twist the throttle and hang on. And once a section of trail gets f@cked, unlike any other user, you can't walk that thing, you have only a reserve of horsepower and a blast of the throttle to get you through. That just compounds the problem. Crude. Tell me this. Can you ride up the Brush side of Block-and-Tackle without goosing the throttle? Without displacing a lot of soil? Doubtful. And for the record, there's a photo of the late Mike Martin, who was 6'5, standing in a moto caused rut in Block-in-Tackle the summer after the Forest Service rebuilt it and he's up to his neck. That's a fact.

    You want tolerance? Have the moto crowd go rebuild the hundreds of miles of trail they rut, braid and pit out every year. Go climb up Doubletop with a shovel and a wheelbarrow and fill in all those gargantuan roost pits in the high trees. Put in one sustainable track in the meadow of eleven (I couldn't make that sh#t up if I tried). Then do it again and again after two idiots roost through it in monsoon season. Good luck with that.
    You and I are not far off in our opinions. The very basics of what I saying is that when one user group starts to dictate who can and can't use a trail there are big problems lurking. I agree that when one group abuses it's fair and rightful use of the trail that group need to be addressed, but that answer IMO is not to prohibit use. Create use areas, enforce stiff penalties on trail abuse (mtn bikers and motos). There are options and solutions other than F'm they can't use the trail. I can't ride my bike on loose rutted dirt so I'm taking my trail and going home.
    I've seen the abuses going on in CB. I know a lot of it is created by tourist (which CB depends on for it's life until the mine starts up) What about use fees for out of county motos? There isn't a good defined DH trail on the mtn, so they don't have the issues that Keystone has, but I seen trails wrecked by DHers and some poor handling skills but that's okay with me, because that is what I expect riding there, and is the reason why I don't ride XC on the mtn. There are better places to do it.
    I think Gunnison county should look at those options as well. Is there an area where motos can get their high country fix, and mtn bikers won't poop in their shorts if the trail gets beat up, if the bikers have similar areas that are set aside for biking? Neither group is restricted access to an environment, just areas in that environment. You could even rotate areas every year so no one area is lost completely to a user group. Maintaining the trails would become the responsibility of the group assigned to the area. I don't see that as a problem. Some people will, but there is a balance that needs to be found since there are so many unhappy trail users out there. The horses and hikers must love it when the bikers go at each other as they will be the winners, and mechanized travel will be taken away for everyone on everything but the dirt roads. How was the road so Schofield today? Sick bubba.. Sick.

    I know, pipedream, as there would be abuses from both sides, but if the penalties are steep, the abuse would be limited.

    Tolerance doesn't mean stand by and smile as your backyard gets beat. It means working together to find solutions the abuse it is limited and some what controllable in the future. Why complain about the 11 trail choices on DT? Find solutions that don't eliminate one group from the picture entirely, and cut those 11 choices to 2 or even 1. Does that 6.5ft deep rut still live on B&T? I'm not a graceful as you on a moto, so I have walked my moto up stuff that I can't ride. It's not fun, and I don't moto on those trails anymore because walking a moto sucks nuts, but I still mtn bike on them. I'm not calling you an intolerant radical. It seems as I'm the only one standing up for shared access to trail that I'm the radical. As good as Hartman's is what if you only had Hartman's to ride? What's stopping the FS from limiting mechanized travel up valley?
    you can get passed a dog... nobody fuks with a lion

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by zrm
    I was on the trail advisory committee for the GH so I'm well acquainted with the area and it's issues. There are still a lot of issues with travel management in that area, much of which is the motorized folks (1.) desire for trails that are too steep to be sustainable and (2) the continued creation of illegal trails.

    Actually, the GH has been heavily mountain bikers for 25+ year. The Fall Classic mountain bike race first used GH trails in 1985 which is when I first started riding there. Although the area has been used by Jeeps and dirt bikes for a long time, the relatively heavy use and proliferation of moto user created trails is a relatively recent activity. Most of the trails the dirt bikers created came into being in the last 10-12 years.
    SCORR has done some good things - although the vast majority of their trails have seen no work - and most of the guys really mean well and try hard, but to be honest, I still don't think most dirt bikers get it. It should be pointed out that all of the trails they created where created illegally, either on FS land, open space land, or private property but the moto folks reaction to that when it is brought up is more or less, "so what? That's the past and it's too late to do anything about it". From a strictly legal point of view, the people who put those trails in should be prosecuted, not rewarded by having their trails legitimized.
    Almost all of those trails are unsustainable or in incredibly environmentally insensitive places like fen wetlands or critical wildlife habitat. Currently, the FS is seriously balking at embracing most of these unsustainable trails in their travel management plan because they feel there is no way anybody, no matter how well meaning they are, has the resources to maintain them to the standards that they are required by law to keep. The FS knows this and so does the county and town open space departments.
    There has been a lot of bad, clueless, s**t going on in the GH from the OHV community for many years and all the managing agencies are a long way away from getting a handle on how they are going to manage the area.

    All that said, I do support Moto use in appropriate areas, but I don't think they should be allowed to run amok everywhere and I do think they should be held accountable for their impacts and I do think there should be strict enforcement, (this applies to all users BTW) and I do think there should be noise restrictions. (Why do so many moto guys think everyone within a couple miles of them need to know they are there??)

    For the most
    As you mentioned there are many issues with the GH. My opinions of the GH are only a few years old, but I heard a lot about the trails from both moto, and bike users. I for one don't ride my mtn bike there for the most part because the trails are to beat to comfortably ride on. I do however believe that areas like the GH, and the Dump area are important to both user groups. The GH area sucks up a lot of moto traffic from surrounding trails, and it allows for SCORR to focus trail work days on areas that receive the most use. Sure the wetland area is an issue that needs to be solved sensitive wildlife habitat in that area is debatable, and IMO there are a lot of trails in Summit that are being and were built illegally. Why not work to improve the most sustainable of the illegal trails, instead of telling the user groups who have been riding them to stay off. Of course they're going to say so what.
    I'm with you 100% that user groups should be held accountable for their impacts, and penalties should be stiff. There should also be avenues to allow for trail system growth that do not drag out the approval process for implementing growth. That's another subject though.
    you can get passed a dog... nobody fuks with a lion

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by kgbuds
    Finally you said something intelligent. I was starting to think that you really were kind of a monkey.

    You are totally right that you can ride a moto without doing major damage to a trail. The problem is that not all riders know how to ride, or choose to ride in that manner.
    Most of the damage done to trail happens when the trail is wet. When a trail gets slick and you are on a moto it doesn't matter how much you want to feather that throttle, you have to punch it or you won't get through. DAMAGE DONE! A mountain bike on the other hand will do a quick little spin out and then the rider will be walking. NO DAMAGE!

    Maybe it's different in Summit, but around here CBMBA is very active in trail maintenance, while there is little help from the moto crowd. The motos will get together for a day and fix a mile or two of trail and call it good for the year, while they destroy many times that every year.
    CBMBA is a great group. As far as I know Summit doesn't have as organized of a user group as CBMBA. Does CBMBA help organized shared use trail work days? Do they try to get motos involved?

    Wet trails are wet trails. Every user does damage to a trail when it's ridden wet. Obviously the stronger heavier user is going to cause more damage, but I can still see ruts in my local loop from mtn bikes riding the trail to early. (you can't ride moto on it)
    you can get passed a dog... nobody fuks with a lion

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    [QUOTE=SicBith]
    I've seen the abuses going on in CB. I know a lot of it is created by tourist (which CB depends on for it's life until the mine starts up) What about use fees for out of county motos?
    Is there an area where motos can get their high country fix, and mtn bikers won't poop in their shorts if the trail gets beat up, if the bikers have similar areas that are set aside for biking?

    I know, pipedream, as there would be abuses from both sides, but if the penalties are steep, the abuse would be limited.
    QUOTE]

    Something needs to be done. We agree on that. Last summer the Forest Service accepted comments on the upcoming travel management plan. A bunch of us got together and wrote letters worded similarly to my posts on this thread. "The damage is obscene, kick 'em off..." About a week later we had a big work party on Reno/Flag/Bear, it was a joint deal between CBMBA and the CBTrailriders. I obviously kept my mouth shut with regard to my personal opinions on motos while in the company of all these dirtbikers, but I did over hear them talk about their own letter writing campaign. The Forest Service had proposed making Strand Hill nonmotorized. I've never seen a moto on Strand Hill before, too many other better options for them I guess. But these guys were totally ballistic on keeping Strand open to motos even though they don't use it. They were not going to compromise on that, guess they feared it was a slippery slope.

    The point to all this is, if there is one, is that the local moto guys, at least the ones involved in trailwork and local politics, are just as intractable as I am. I have no illusions about the Forest Service pinning a medal on me and making me trail czar. Not gonna happen. But I would be absolutely stoked if the moto guys stepped up and said, "guess what boys? We've ripped ole Doubletop a new assh@le, lets give it a couple years to heal then put in some switchbacks on the steeps and make more sustainable." I'd help 'em.

    You are correct that moto-tourists are an enormous slice of the problem. I'd charge an impact tax and use it towards trail work. The problem with that is Johnny Roosting through the Rain Dipsh!t from Podunk USA has just as much right and ownership of the Gunnison National Forest as the local trailrider who putts around on dry days with trials tires on his bike and shows up for every trailwork day. And there are a small group of local moto guys who are just roosting rednecks. This small minority of local dirtbikers have a ridiculously large negative impact because they are irresponsible and they pound the trail system all summer long every summer, rain or shine.

    The truth is none of this is going to happen. They're never gonna get banned above 8kft (unless they put me in charge) and they're not going to start getting fined for ripping up trails. The Forest Service was an impotent bunch will no leadership before their measly budget got shipped to Iraq. I just hope we get one or two nonmotorized routes up Cement Creek one day. Its such a beautiful valley. I'd like to see it one day from a sustainable trail instead of from the bottom of a rut.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sodapopinski
    My buddy and I are in CB for the week. We come out every year and always have a great time. Yesterday we tried out Teocalli for the first time and I just have to say, holy cow what a climb! Anyway, we were curious if many people are riding this trail. It seemed really rutted out and having to wade across the creek was interesting. Is this the usual conditions for this trail? While it was fun and very challenging--went over my handlebars once on the way down--it seemed like a bit of a mess. Taking it easy today and hitting the Upper and Upper Upper Loops.
    WOW... what a can of worms this post opened !!! I have ridden Teocalli Ridge albeit many years ago. Yes, it was a long climb, but it was BEAUTIFUL. We saw all sorts of wildlife and the flowers were fantastic. I remember there was a large log across the creek that we walked across. The creek was running really high that year. The descent was awesome through all the aspens. I remember that a HUGE rainstorm erupted right as we were finishing up... GOOD TIMES !

  56. #56
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    Folding bikes make me smile. Now I wanna see a folding moto.

  57. #57
    LCP
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    Summer of 1995ish.

    Downieville, CA.

    Coyote Classic (now Downieville Classic) downhill and point to point cross country race.

    US Forest Service conducts a study during the race to determine trail erosion caused by mountain bike use.

    Over some 1,500 rider/runs down Butcher Ranch and Divide Trails in one long weekend race/festival. The study concluded that all those runs did the equivalent trail damage of THREE motos ridden along the same trail.

    (This from memory. I'm sure if you ask the Yuba Expedition guys they'd have hard numbers.)

    I just rode Reno Flag Bear to Doctor's last weekend. I witnessed first hand the destruction that 3 motos were doing as we leapfrogged each other on Flag (one moto crashed). Fistful of throttles, trail flung everywhere.

    Bad apples? Maybe. I want to be as reasonable as anyone. In fact, I'm keeping my eye out for a used 80 or 125 for my kids to play with when they're big enough.

    But I saw what I saw, and it was utterly disgusting treatment of prime backcountry singletrack.

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by LCP
    Summer of 1995ish.

    Downieville, CA.

    Coyote Classic (now Downieville Classic) downhill and point to point cross country race.

    US Forest Service conducts a study during the race to determine trail erosion caused by mountain bike use.

    Over some 1,500 rider/runs down Butcher Ranch and Divide Trails in one long weekend race/festival. The study concluded that all those runs did the equivalent trail damage of THREE motos ridden along the same trail.

    (This from memory. I'm sure if you ask the Yuba Expedition guys they'd have hard numbers.)

    I just rode Reno Flag Bear to Doctor's last weekend. I witnessed first hand the destruction that 3 motos were doing as we leapfrogged each other on Flag (one moto crashed). Fistful of throttles, trail flung everywhere.

    Bad apples? Maybe. I want to be as reasonable as anyone. In fact, I'm keeping my eye out for a used 80 or 125 for my kids to play with when they're big enough.

    But I saw what I saw, and it was utterly disgusting treatment of prime backcountry singletrack.
    That's it ..... I'm selling my moto. I can't be responsible for they way other people use singletrack. Do you guys know where I can get a good hook on some organic granola, and hormone free yogurt?

    DH mtn bikes in 1995 weren't using 8 inch suspension, and 2.7 knobs, and 8 inch rotors. I don't think that info is applicable here.
    you can get passed a dog... nobody fuks with a lion

  59. #59
    zrm
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    Glad to hear you're finally getting it!

    If you where really responsible you wouldn't sell it. By doing that you just transfer the destruction to the hands of a different person. The responsible thing to do will be to strip it down to it's recyclable components and take it down to the recycling center.

  60. #60
    OTB
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    That's the funniest comeback I've ever read on MTBR....
    Be still and know.....

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by zrm
    Glad to hear you're finally getting it!

    If you where really responsible you wouldn't sell it. By doing that you just transfer the destruction to the hands of a different person. The responsible thing to do will be to strip it down to it's recyclable components and take it down to the recycling center.

    BradH is going to love it. I sold it to my buddy in the Butte, who is sold his to a friend he just got hook on motoing. Don't worry for me though I'll be getting a new trough digger in the spring when the GH is nice and wet.
    you can get passed a dog... nobody fuks with a lion

  62. #62
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    motos and granola don't mix

    Quote Originally Posted by SicBith
    DH mtn bikes in 1995 weren't using 8 inch suspension, and 2.7 knobs, and 8 inch rotors. I don't think that info is applicable here.
    Sorry buddy, gonna have to respectfully disagree once again. Bike technology has grown by leaps and bounds, but the key factor is horsepower, and that has remained unchanged. Besides, the trails we're talking about here get ridden by cross-country bikes primarily. Don't see much out there much bigger than 5inches although 8in rotors are getting fairly common. And while skidding downhill on a mountain bike isn't good for the trail, it displaces a lot less dirt than a moto going uphill with the throttle pinned.

    Good for you for selling that nasty thing. I recommend kindveggiehippiegrits.com for your nutritional needs. Good luck with your new direction

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by brad h
    Sorry buddy, gonna have to respectfully disagree once again. Bike technology has grown by leaps and bounds, but the key factor is horsepower, and that has remained unchanged. Besides, the trails we're talking about here get ridden by cross-country bikes primarily. Don't see much out there much bigger than 5inches although 8in rotors are getting fairly common. And while skidding downhill on a mountain bike isn't good for the trail, it displaces a lot less dirt than a moto going uphill with the throttle pinned.

    Good for you for selling that nasty thing. I recommend kindveggiehippiegrits.com for your nutritional needs. Good luck with your new direction
    Back at you. The research that was done covered a DH race in Downieville, with all the nutritional suppliments available to athletes these days human horsepower has increased since 1995ish.

    One of your friends most likely bought the moto. If one of them starts braggin about their rad new/used KTM 300 EXC that was me getting my bike back to its roots in CB. Baaaraaaaappppp!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    you can get passed a dog... nobody fuks with a lion

  64. #64
    zrm
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    Quote Originally Posted by SicBith
    Don't worry for me though I'll be getting a new trough digger in the spring when the GH is nice and wet.
    No worries, with gas probably pushing $5.00 a gal in 8 months we'll all bestaying closer to home, and walking or riding our bicycles more. And anyway a good chunk of those trails are supposed to be closed off by then and the sherriff deputiies should be riding around on their motos doing enforcement. What a world, what a world


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