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  1. #1
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    Info on FlyPaper Pedals Is finally posted!

    At a mere 3.7 millimeters thin, the photo of FlyPaper Pedals has been the second most viewed photo from Interbike's Dirt Demolition Daze! Several people have posted questions and comments about them. I finally got a chance to post some additional info and answer a couple of the questions. If you are one of the thousands of people who were checking them out, now there's some info for you. If you haven't seen them tey, they are shown on the first page of photos from dirt demo and listed as "Flat, flat pedals"

    Stay tuned, I'll be posting more info, as time allows.

  2. #2
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    pictures?
    Go BIG or Go HOME

  3. #3
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    Sweet..but uh, looks sketchy.


  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Internal14
    Ever slip a pedal and slam into the seat? That little thing would disappear until I later got to the ER.

  5. #5
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    Crap, I got beaten to it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Internal14
    Ever slip a pedal and slam into the seat? That little thing would disappear until I later got to the ER.

  6. #6
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    looks flexy.

    edit: wait, after looking at those, whats the point? they're probably both heavier and weaker than a traditional pedal with a longer spindle....
    Last edited by William42; 10-10-2007 at 08:00 PM.

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    too slow, bro

  8. #8
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    Meh. Looks like something I stepped on. Get it?...
    Quote Originally Posted by kidwoo
    The internet sounds like a tough place to ride.

  9. #9
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    looks like a slice of cheese to me

  10. #10
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    i just can't see how those would hold up to dh riding or freeride - maybe if you are 90lbs and dont really go big

    i'd like to see a couple big guys review them - see how they really are
    **! I'd rather sh!t out Mark Weir than watch him pedal up a hill !**

  11. #11
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    The guy who makes em claims that they are lighter and stiffer then regular pedals. and he rides them xc and am.

    I like the ingenuity, but would NEVER use them for dh purposes.
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  12. #12
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    not wide enough for my moccasins
    the trick is ENJOYING YOUR LIFE EACH DAY, don't waste them away wishing for better days

  13. #13
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    most redarded idea ever....

    straight-up ugliest bike part i've ever seen as well....


  14. #14
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    I'm sure the initial reaction to tiny clipless pedals was just as doubtful..

  15. #15
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    they make me feel funny...and i dont like it...
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by creyc
    I'm sure the initial reaction to tiny clipless pedals was just as doubtful..

    just maybe true, but me says 200 pounds = no way
    the trick is ENJOYING YOUR LIFE EACH DAY, don't waste them away wishing for better days

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    I wanna know wuts up with how it attaches to the crank arm? it looks like it takes the place of an insert? look at the massive nut on the backside of the crank!

    i'm overly skeptical about these things.
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  18. #18
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    Guess again, Billy Boy 42...

    FlyPaper Pedals are actually super light, and super strong. Ronnie Thomson, maker of Thomson seatposts and stems, said that he thought they were the best new innovation of the entire 2007 Interbike show. He also agreed with me that the weakest point on them is where the 20 millimeter bearing shoulder steps down to the 17 millimeter bearing seat. This from the man who does more destructive testing of his own and his competitor's products than most of the rest of the industry combined! Ever try to break or bend a solid 17 millimeter diameter shaft of 7075 aluminum? Plenty of downhill bikes run a 12 millimeter aluminum rear axel...

    One 12 mm axel or TWO 17 mm pedal shafts....? Hmmm...

  19. #19
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    They are actually...

    100 millimeters by 100 millimeters, about the average for most platform pedals. I have size 12 wide feet and they have always been plenty wide for me.

    Dean

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bike Doc
    FlyPaper Pedals are actually super light, and super strong. Ronnie Thomson, maker of Thomson seatposts and stems, said that he thought they were the best new innovation of the entire 2007 Interbike show. He also agreed with me that the weakest point on them is where the 20 millimeter bearing shoulder steps down to the 17 millimeter bearing seat. This from the man who does more destructive testing of his own and his competitor's products than most of the rest of the industry combined! Ever try to break or bend a solid 17 millimeter diameter shaft of 7075 aluminum? Plenty of downhill bikes run a 12 millimeter aluminum rear axel...

    One 12 mm axel or TWO 17 mm pedal shafts....? Hmmm...
    the fact that the 12mm axle is supported on both ends is worth noting. not really a fair comparison.

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    not entirely a fair comparison, bike doc.

    The rear axle is supported on both sides, a much different scenario than a pedal which has the entire load placed 4" out and floating in space. The torque exerted on the end point by means of the mechanical advantage create much higher forces than that found in a rear axle.

    However, I would definitely take Ronnie Thomsons' word for it if he says they're stiff.

    [edit] beat me to it!

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    You might also want to check with

    Lance Canfield and his brother, Chris. They both rode them at dirt demo, and they both want a pair! So does Krispy Kris Baughman, of Down and Double Down fame. Dave Turner also rode them and really liked them. And a couple of guys named Gary Fisher, Dave Weagle and Richard Cunningham had good things to say about them as well.

    By the way, when was the last time anyone here bent a 17 millimeter shaft of solid aluminum, with ro without 4 inches or evem more of leverage?

  23. #23
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    if its so good and stiff, why is it other companies use much more complex and rigid structures of trusses and triangles when all they really need is a flat plate of steel?

  24. #24
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    Actually, it's

    7075 aluminum, not steel!!!

  25. #25
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    [i've edited this 3 times because i dont know what to think about them.]

    In spirit of keeping an open mind, i think it's a cool innovation but I have my doubts in how well they will take on rougher riding and heavier riders.

    I would have to really try them before i can say anything else. I have to ask, what are the benefits of a thinner pedal? The weight part doesn't matter to lots of DH riders, and I can certainly name a few pedals which are stiffer, guaranteed. So what (besides the "different" aspect) makes these pedals better than say..a tried and true Kona Jack$hit?
    Last edited by creyc; 10-10-2007 at 11:58 PM.

  26. #26
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    this part - not the shaft to the crank arm

    the part in yellow - where the thin becomes thicker - that is the part i can just see snapping off or bending over time.

    it is great if they work for XC and AM - but most people would just use clips for that riding.

    if i can bend and break a normal pedal - that is thick - why should i think a thin one would work any better?
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  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by creyc
    even more flexy...
    Aluminum is rigid, light, and strong, although in some ways less durable because of its rigidity and lack of forgiveness over time.

    Steel flexes more, but is heavier. Can't really have the best of both worlds, unless of course you have lots of moolah and can get the titanium and carbon stuff. Which...I don't.

  28. #28
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    if i can bend and break a normal pedal - that is thick - why should i think a thin one would work any better?
    bend what part of a normal pedal - the actual aluminum body??? or the axle...

    Quote Originally Posted by creyc
    if its so good and stiff, why is it other companies use much more complex and rigid structures of trusses and triangles when all they really need is a flat plate of steel?
    They do it because they HAVE TO. Regular pedals have an axle that goes all the way through the pedal body, so the pedal body has to be thick because it contains the bearings and the axle. With the flatflat pedals, the bearings are on both sides of the crank arm. No axle on the outside means pedal can be way thinner.
    A 3.7mm solid Aluminium plate of these dimensions can surely be plenty stiff, so no worries there. The question is, how good will the bearing system work. The second question is, would they be less ugly in black.


    By the way, shimano once had a similiar system with clipless roadbike pedals. However, the bearing system was different. they required a special crank arm with a huge pedal eye and as far as I know, the bearings were ****.
    The point of all this effort is that pedaling becomes more [insert biomechanical blabla here] when your foot is closer to the actual rotation axis of the pedal.
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  29. #29
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    "when your foot is closer to the actual rotation axis of the pedal.:"

    because pedal rotation is exactly what I am looking for while hitting a 30ft gap.

    seriously - they may work for a lot of people - but - having already bent a regular pedals - why is something that is thinner going to be better.
    **! I'd rather sh!t out Mark Weir than watch him pedal up a hill !**

  30. #30
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    interesting, lelebebbel.

    I took that comment out, mxer. you caught me.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by vexhex
    "when your foot is closer to the actual rotation axis of the pedal.:"

    because pedal rotation is exactly what I am looking for while hitting a 30ft gap.
    Yeah I agree- Its nice that they are really light, but the flatness itself does probably not really matter for DH/FR. Would be interesting to try them though, wonder if pedaling feels different.
    Maybe there are other advantages, I don't know.
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  32. #32
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    atomlab will need to correct their website as their aircorp pedals will no longer be "absolutely the thinnest, grippiest pedals on the market." they can just change it to "the grippiest"

  33. #33
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    atomlab has some time i think...i've not seen these actually "on the market" for sale anywhere

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    I posted this elsewhere, but I got to pedal these around at the dirt demo (only round the parking lot), and they felt like they could convert me back to full-time flats.

    The biggest advantage is that you can apply forward pressure at the top of the pedal's arc, without your foot rolling off the top, and vice-versa at the bottom of the arc. The result is the ability to put power to the pedal through a greater portion of the pedal's arc of rotation than a normal pedal. It's a weird sensation at first, not being clipped, but being able to apply forward force to the pedal as it reaches the top of rotation, and all the way through, and slightly past the bottom of it's rotation.

    You feel more glued to the pedal than any other flat I've ridden. I can't wait to put a pair to the test on a real trail. If there's a wait list to get a pair, sign me up!
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    I would never run those pedals, thay would snap with me and my hack style of riding and they are no where big enough for my size 14 feet and they are by far the ugliest pedals ever.

  36. #36
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    I think the design is a great starting point;. That advantage for DH/FR with a thinner pedal is clearance, over rocks, wood structures,etc.. and weight. I think it could be a very cool design with some refinements. Good on ya... keep going!

    Mots DH rigs have a very low BB and squat tremendously,. sitting down into their smooth spot at speed... think Turner's DH design. A thinner, flatter pedal would benefit being lower to the ground. Think about all the DH designs that squat when braking into rock gardens... I'd love a few more mm's of clearance at the pedals in these situations...sure.

    I like it!

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    I think it's a good idea, but i hate the appearance of the pedals in general. Look really ugly.

    Also, They don't look like they'd grip worth a sh*t. The pins are short and dull and the design isn't concave, so i can see my feet slipping off even with my 5.10's.

    How about use the same axle design, but make the actually CNC the platform in a really cool, but thicker, design thats super concave? now that would be dope. make them chrome too

    how about somthing like thiiiis?
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  38. #38
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    Atomlab will have to drop both words... thin = sticky

    Thinnest AND stickiest! As Kanga mentioned below, FlyPaper Pedals grip better than any platform pedals he's ever tried. Grips better = STICKIEST!!!

    This was the main point of developing FlyPaper Pedals. I used to ride the original Atomlabs Aircorp, myself. At 19 millimeters thick they were a vast improvement over the 26 millimeter thick redline pedals I had previosly ridden.

    Try this experiment: Take an extra pair of platform pedals and a couple of zip ties. Zip tie both of the spare pedals to ONE of the pedals on your bike, one on top, the other on the bottom. Now, with your new "triple thick pedal", try riding your bike around the parking lot, but be CAREFUL! Notice how easily the pedal wants to roll under your foot, especially if you try to start pushing forward early in the pedal stroke. Now try standing up on your new triple thick. (REALLY CAREFUL HERE!!!) Next, go find yourself a hill to climb. Try it seated and then standing.

    I actuall have done all of these experiments, (at the suggestion of someone from Atomlabs) which was what 8 or 10 years ago convinced me to try the Atomlab Aircorp. By placing your foot closer to the axis of the pedal's rotation, you reduce the leverage that would otherwise allow your foot to roll the pedal. This thinness IS WHAT MAKES THE PEDAL STICKIER AND MORE STABLE!!! (Which is precisely why downhillers and freeeriders will want these pedals.)

    The stability of FlyPaper Pedals allows you to start pedaling harder, earlier in the pedal stroke without having your foot slip or roll off the front of the pedal, and continue pedaling harder farther across the bottom of the pedal stroke without having your foot slip or roll off the back of the pedal. Longer pedal stroke = more power = improved sprinting = faster downhill runs!

    Also, by having a longer power stroke, your power becomes smoother and less "spikey", reducing the chance of overpowering and spinning the rear wheel in low traction conditions.

    Second benefit: Lower rider platform!

    Reducing the pedal to 3.7 millimeters thick versus 24mm to 25mm for most platform pedals (27mm or more for some) means that the rider is standing more than 10 millimeters lower. This lowers the rider's center of gravity by 10mm. This also allows a 10mm lower saddle position and 10mm lower handlebars. Since the rider is the heaviest part of the bike, this seemingly small drop in position is HUGE in performance benefits. First, the bike corners better, with more stability. Second, you can now descend steeper roll-ins to squarer hits at the bottom befrtoe you go over the handlebars. Third, you can now climb steeper hills before the bike tries to wheelie over backwards.

    Another benefit: More ground clearance!

    That same 10 millimeters taken off the other side of the pedal allows you to pedal through chunkier rock gardens without hitting your pedals. Pedaling where others are coasting = faster downhill runs!

    But perhaps you ride in Smoothville and there ain't no rock gardens or maybe your frame was designed with all the ground clearance that you would ever want or need... THEN RE-DESIGN YOUR FRAME!!! Now, with flypaper pedals, you can LOWER your bottom bracket by 10 millimeters and now the rider wil be 20millimeters lower than on your old set-up. Your frame size is from the bottom bracket to the seat clamp, so lowering the bottom bracket 10 mm means that you also lower your seat tube and the rear end of your top tube a corresponding 10mm! The center of your top tube is now 5mm lower, a significant benefit for anyone with a crotch, but especially for the vertically challenged! Your saddle and handlebars are now 20 millimeters lower than before! Any downhillers interested yet?

    What's that, you say... you ride clipped in and just wouldn't be interested in a platform pedal, no matter how good. Guess what I'm working on now??? That's right, a clippity-do pedal that is based on the same bearing / spindle concept. Once again, without the spindle in the way, the pedal will be much thinner. I have some other tricks up my sleeve that will make them easier to clip into than any existing pedal, but I can't say too much about them until I get those patents filed. Speaking of patents, I've already filed for two of them for FlyPaper Pedals, and the clip-ins will qualify for at least two more. The road version should qualify fo one more beyond that. I've also got A headset design that will drop about 100 grams off of a headset (even though some headsets weigh less than 100 grams already!) and several other projects in the works, including wheels and three different real transmission designs, because I've never met a defailleur I didn't HATE!!!

    Gotta run for now... time to make the milling machine spit out more chips...

    Dean

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    dean, if you work for a bike company and post on any forum on this website it is required that you say so in your signature.

    I still like my idea better, but, i would be willing to try some out and give feedback on here. How much will they cost?

    FlyPaper is a perfect name BTW.

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    thats the kind of info i was looking for, Dean.

    Sounds like they should be a real improvement, as long as that bearing holds up!

    I'd still like to hear a full, un-biased review from a dh rider, and not a lightweight!
    Last edited by creyc; 10-11-2007 at 10:51 AM.

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    Thanks for that extra explanation.... I had just posted a bit of an explanation on the thread over in the Passion forum as well. All those high-school engineering classes coming in handy!

    When you've got some test pairs available, I'd love to put some through their paces.

    Thanks
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  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by SHIVER ME TIMBERS
    just maybe true, but me says 200 pounds = no way
    Looks pretty weird! Who knows! veyrone doubted 5 then 6 then 7" Single Crowns, but now they are norm...

    The bearing looks to be in the crank/at the crank rather than inside the pedal body so the platform and spindle must be 1 piece. Interesting, but goofy lookin.

    Low profile for sure!

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    Nice thinking Dean,

    so new Cleated pedals will use cleat mechanizm bellow the axle so gravity will rotate pedal to clip-ready position all the time and you can use one-sided pdeal only saving further weght same concept like stationary bikes flat pedals?

    Those patents are so easy to come with nowdays, or should I beat you and file it, jk

    Glad to see innovations coming, kindof making beaten phrase "reinventing a bike" an absolete.
    I used to run tubes like you are, but then I got thorn in my wheel.

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    Sweet!

    They will make for an effectively lower BB, but with more ground clearance!

    I think racers would be all over the lower wind resistance too!

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    So effectively your putting the bearing in the crankarm? and the axle is just a solid part of the pedal body that runs through the bearings in the crank arm tip? Correct me if im wrong but thats a killer idea, thinking outside the box, hell get rid of the box that is a thick pedal haha. awsome and simple, and structurally sound - im sure u've run FEA's on em and that looks like a design that has been tailored for a high strength to weight ratio. I might just get a new set of pedals someday, and these will be it lol.

  46. #46
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    I would give them a shot. They look interesting.

  47. #47
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    i hated them at first but then i read the science part and they seem pritty cool!

    if they made a beafer set for dh/freeride id run them

    does the bearings work on any crankset with normal pedal threads?
    Dirt jumps come and go, but dirt junkies will dig forever.

  48. #48
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    Well, I like them...not the best looking but the ideas behind them are great. I am a 250lb dude who rides in a rainforest (Vancouver Island, BC) and would love to give these bad boys a try...see if they can stand up to me.

  49. #49
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    I'd love to try them out

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    i'm with one of the posters who said at first he didn't like them based on looks. however, after reading hte explanation, they make perfect sense. i run atomlabs (perfect pedal i've ever used) but i occasionally flip my pedal. these do seem like they would resolve that. great thinking "out of the box". can't wait to try some.

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    They should paint/ano them brown, so then they can really look like a stepped on dog turd

  52. #52
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    Wow, I never knew there were so many fashionistas and materials experts on MTBR!

    I don't care what they look like, since they will be under my feet. And I don't have a degree in materials engineering, so I can't say if they will be strong or weak.

    But damn, they are thin. I'd like to try a pair.

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bike Doc
    ... I've also got A headset design that will drop about 100 grams off of a headset (even though some headsets weigh less than 100 grams already!) ...
    You had my interest until the point you said you were going to make headsets out of hydrogen.
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  54. #54
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    For those of you who doubt these pedals, here is food for thought. Why would a company make pedals that would break when a 200lb guy rides them? They wouldn't! Sure they are thin, but I just don't see why a company would put out a pedal that wouldn't hold up to standard abuse and worked for most everyone. Well, I guess thats how I would run a business, so I hope these guys think the same...
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    d thy have pins on bothe sides

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rover Nick
    They should paint/ano them brown, so then they can really look like a stepped on dog turd
    Funny.

  57. #57
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    It's About Time Sombody Improved Platforms

    Lighter, new design on bearings,may improve clearance over rocks.Sounds like I need a pair.Been ridinng ti azonic Aframes with 5/10s waiting for another light option.Sign me up for the first ones.

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    NoBrakes, they do have pins on both sides.
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  59. #59
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    I weigh 230-240ish and break lots of things, I would gladly test them for the fat people. I could promote them too. I love the pedals, and I want to try them as soon as they are available. I was actually thinking of how one would make a super skinny pedal a couple days ago and how they would feel.

  60. #60
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    Sure looks interesting. I wouldn't mind taking a spin on them.

  61. #61
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    when and where can i get a hold of a set?

    i was about to buy new flats, but i'll probably hold off until i can get some of these bad boys

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    That back side bolt would hit my chainstay guard.
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  63. #63
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    with the bearings on each side of the crank arm you wouldnt have to worry about stipped pedal inserts

  64. #64
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    First off: Aluminum is not stiffer than steel. Look up their modulus'
    Secondly: The reduced pedal thickness decreases the overall body stiffness considerably, in fact to the third power. So a 1/2 plate of steel is 8 times stiffer than a 1/4 inch plate. You lose a whole lot of section by going to a flat plate.
    Thirdly: Those two inboard bearings are going to see a hell of a lot more moment loading than having a bearing or bushing on the end of a spindle.

    That being said, I think they are a good idea, interesting design and probably work perfectly great. In the grand scheme of things, a 200 pound human being only a few inches off center does not create that hi of loads, unless they ride a hardtail and do drops to flat.....

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    My understanding of the prototype was that it was not a standard crank, but a modified one to be compatible with the system. With that, I'm sure he can engineer a crank to better distribute those loads. It will be interesting to see if Dean can engineer them to fit into standard cranks.....
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  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havefaith
    First off: Aluminum is not stiffer than steel. Look up their modulus'
    Secondly: The reduced pedal thickness decreases the overall body stiffness considerably, in fact to the third power. So a 1/2 plate of steel is 8 times stiffer than a 1/4 inch plate. You lose a whole lot of section by going to a flat plate.
    Thirdly: Those two inboard bearings are going to see a hell of a lot more moment loading than having a bearing or bushing on the end of a spindle.
    I like how Havefaith is such a pessimist

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havefaith
    First off: Aluminum is not stiffer than steel. Look up their modulus'
    Secondly: The reduced pedal thickness decreases the overall body stiffness considerably, in fact to the third power. So a 1/2 plate of steel is 8 times stiffer than a 1/4 inch plate. You lose a whole lot of section by going to a flat plate.
    That is true, but irrelevant. I don't really think that the pedal body itself limits the stiffness on any conventional pedal. Instead, it is the axle itself - the part with the smallest cross section by a huge margin*, and it has to carry the highest moment because it is between the riders foot and the crank.

    *the thinnest part of the axle is only as wide as the inner diameter of the inner pedal bearing. And the outer diameter of that is limited by the thickness of the pedal body.

    In fact, I can see an advantage here for the flypaper pedal.
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  68. #68
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    The pins

    The pins go all the way through the pedal body. I'm currently experimenting with different pin lengths. I have 12 millimeter pins on the left pedal, which means that they stick out abot 4 millimeters on either side; and 10 millimeter pins on the right pedal, which give a 3 millimeter pin height on either side. I thinh that on both pedals that I actually have too many pins, and that even at 200 lbs, my shoe is sitting too much on top of the pins, kind of like the "bed od nails" trick. One of these days soon, I'm going to get my ice pick and clean out the sandstone that is impacted into the allen head sockets on these and remove a few pins from each pedal. I'm pretty sure that doing so will make the bottom of my shoe sink down around the remaining pins a bit farther and make these puppies even grippier than they already are!

  69. #69
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    I think it's a hoax...

    Building a platform pedal with a concave foot bed at first seems like a good idea. I seems as if the surface being cupped would hold your foot in place better than being flat. BUT since the goal of this project was to reduce pedal roll while pushing and pulling across the top and bottom of the pedal stroke, and since thicker pedals have been proven to have more pedal roll, I opted to not cup the foot bed. I believe that the most critical part of the pedal, when it comes to thickness, is the edge. Think about this: as a pedal starts to roll under your foot, once it rotates just a couple of degrees, the only part still in contact with the bottom of your shoe is the edge. The rest of the roll is entirely dependant on the leverage that comes from the thickness at the remaining point of contact. I think that ideally, a convex or slightly football shaped front to back profile would actually reduce roll. However FlyPaper pedals are already so thin, (3.7 millimeters) that I don't think there is room to thin out the front and back edges without compromising strenght and durability. And besides, they just don't need it...they're already the grippiest, most stable platform pedals on the planet. And as I mentioned in another post a few minutes ago, I think that they will be even grippier after I remove a few pins. Furthermore, IF I AM WRONG about the concave/convex thing, and a convex shape is actually better, rather than Adding a bunch of extra weight by making the front and rear edges thicker, all that you would really have to do to get an overall convex profile, is to replace the front and rear pins with longer ones than used in the middle. (Currently I am running 12 millimeter pins on one pedal for 4 millimeters of pin extension on each side of the pedal body, and 10 millimeter pins on the other for 3 millimeters of pin extension on each side of that pedal body. Since both sides fell equally grippy, I think that I may have too many pins and that reducing the number of pins might actually make a great thing even better!)

  70. #70
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    Those would be great on my BMX bike. I'd love to try a pair.

  71. #71
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    Good job!

    I'll take a set whenever they are ready to go into production.

    Just let me know.

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  72. #72
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    I didn't realize the pins went all the way through. Sounds good and like the best way to get a secure mount on something so thin. One question, have you had a problem removing and replacing pins that are bent or roughed on both sides? That's the only possible drawback I could see.
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  73. #73
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    Removing pins

    I have yet to bend a pin. A few of them are roughed up a bit from banging into the rocks. Most of them have sandstone impacted into the allen head socket. The rest of the wrench sockets are packed with mud. I'm guessing that the reason I have yet to bend any pins is two-fold. First, even though I sometimes try to hit them to accelerate the testing process, I rarely actually get them to hit, as they are just so thin. Second, I'm using rather short pins; with four millimeters of pin extension on one pedal, and only 3 millimeters of pin extension on the other pedal, so when they do hit, there just isn't much leverage to bend them. As for removal, since they go the whole way through, both sides of a given pin would have to be mangled or bent before it would even become a slight issue. If that was the case, I plan on just taking one side of a double bent pin to the grinder, and taking it down flush with the pedal body and grabbing the other side with vice grips to unthread it. I'm actually looking forward to having to try that! But speaking of removing pins, as I mentioned yesterday, I think I can improve the already phenominal grip of thesed things by REMOVING a few pins, as I believe that I'm standing somewhat on top of them now, kind of like the old "bed of nails" circus/"indian mystic" trick. Maybe I'll finally get around to that today (every time I remember that I want to try this, I've been out on a trail, with my 2 millimeter wrench, but no icepick to clean out the impacted sandstone and mud.) So, I'll go pull some pins now and hopefully this afternoon I'll get to go give them a whirl on some prime Sedona singletrack and slickrock! After a few rides, I'll let you know if it does what i'm thinking it will...

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by mxer788
    Aluminum is rigid, light, and strong, although in some ways less durable because of its rigidity and lack of forgiveness over time.

    Steel flexes more, but is heavier. Can't really have the best of both worlds, unless of course you have lots of moolah and can get the titanium and carbon stuff. Which...I don't.
    you DO realize that carbon and titanium are amoungst the stiffest...??

    And you DO realize that everything that was said in your reply was completely backwards?

    Steel is not heavier, is its rather lighter. Aluminum is weaker by a fair stretch.

    The type of bracing and wall thickness companies are using to get a structurally sound aluminum frame is UNREAL! You can use HALF that if you build it out of steel...

    There are a lot of mis-conceptions going around that aluminum is the 1337 material to build a frame out of. Aluminum has a signifacntly lower fatigue life, and when it decides to fail, it could be catastrophic. The elastisity of a steel frame provides for a bike that will keep on keepin' on for manny many more years than an aluminum frame used for the same purpose.

    Sorry for the hi-jack... But i dont quite like when people think they know their ****.

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havefaith
    First off: Aluminum is not stiffer than steel. Look up their modulus'
    Secondly: The reduced pedal thickness decreases the overall body stiffness considerably, in fact to the third power. So a 1/2 plate of steel is 8 times stiffer than a 1/4 inch plate. You lose a whole lot of section by going to a flat plate.
    Thirdly: Those two inboard bearings are going to see a hell of a lot more moment loading than having a bearing or bushing on the end of a spindle.

    That being said, I think they are a good idea, interesting design and probably work perfectly great. In the grand scheme of things, a 200 pound human being only a few inches off center does not create that hi of loads, unless they ride a hardtail and do drops to flat.....
    Wow,

    AMEN!!!

    back to the pedals... I would never trust my life/legs/face riding a thin peice of metal... Let alone ALUMINUM!! And I have yet to see any bit of info about it being heat treated...

    Having a bearing on the backside of the crankarm could post for clearance issues. ESPECIALLY with people owning a steel frame... Not to mention having the bearings placed that close together greatly decreases the load distribution the bearings will be seeing.

    Not trying to hardcore bash the product... Just giving my bit of feedback...

  76. #76
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    bump

    bump
    If you can't keep the rubber side down......at least smile for the camera!

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by A Grove
    you DO realize that carbon and titanium are amoungst the stiffest...??

    And you DO realize that everything that was said in your reply was completely backwards?

    Steel is not heavier, is its rather lighter. Aluminum is weaker by a fair stretch.

    The type of bracing and wall thickness companies are using to get a structurally sound aluminum frame is UNREAL! You can use HALF that if you build it out of steel...

    There are a lot of mis-conceptions going around that aluminum is the 1337 material to build a frame out of. Aluminum has a signifacntly lower fatigue life, and when it decides to fail, it could be catastrophic. The elastisity of a steel frame provides for a bike that will keep on keepin' on for manny many more years than an aluminum frame used for the same purpose.

    Sorry for the hi-jack... But i dont quite like when people think they know their ****.

    Yes...i DO realize that carbon and titanium are very stiff and light. That's basically what I said. The point I made was that these materials are expensive and out of reach of the average consumer. I don't know how you took my comment, but the main point is that everyone would use those materials if it was practical. Steel and Aluminum are cheaper, but for a reason.

    I'm not sure on the weight difference between steel and aluminum. Apparently steel is lighter, however many aluminum frames built with all the extra gussets and thicker walls are the same weight, if not lighter, than the steel comparison. You are correct about steel being more forgiving, having a longer fatigue life, but this also usually means less rigidity.

  78. #78
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    aluminu-phobia?

    Quote Originally Posted by A Grove
    Wow,

    AMEN!!!

    back to the pedals... I would never trust my life/legs/face riding a thin peice of metal... Let alone ALUMINUM!! And I have yet to see any bit of info about it being heat treated...
    - as explained a few posts earlier, the strength of a pedal is not limited by it's thickness, even if it is made out of -gasp- aluminum!
    - the modulus of steel is about 3 times higher than that of aluminum, but it is also about 3 times heavier.
    - since you don't trust aluminum, I suppose your cranks, stem, bars and seatpost are steel, too? The only non-aluminum DH/FR pedals out there are synchros mentals. They weigh roughly twice as much as all the others, and cost 5 times as much.

    so, don't turn this into a (..nother pointless) steel VS. aluminum discussion - that's what the frame building forum is for. By the way, 2 of my 3 current bikes are steel..

    Having a bearing on the backside of the crankarm could post for clearance issues. ESPECIALLY with people owning a steel frame... Not to mention having the bearings placed that close together greatly decreases the load distribution the bearings will be seeing.

    Not trying to hardcore bash the product... Just giving my bit of feedback...
    that part I don't get. Due to steel beeing stronger than aluminum, the tubes on a steel frame are usually much thinner, thus providing MORE clearance for the cranks than, say, the enormous chainstays of any a generic aluminum DH/FR frame.
    Since all cranks made in the last few years are extremely wide (so they fit on full suspension bikes), there is usually more than enough clearance between chainstays and crank, at least on every frame I've seen so far. Unless you want to run 1994 square taper cranks, of course. But then I wouldn't worry about the strength of the PEDAL
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  79. #79
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    I'm 200 lbs

    In fact, I was clydesdale state cross-country champ in Utah in 1996, so not only am I a fairly big guy, I also hammer, AND I now live in Sedona, AZ, home of some of the gnarliest, rockiest, technical trails on the planet. I've also tested these on a couple of multi-day trips to Zion (Southern Utah) and a couple of trips to Boulder City, NV and a two week trip to California and Oregon.

  80. #80
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    The way that they attach...

    is with a couple of bearing cups screwed into the crank arm. The "hex nut" that you refer to on the back side of the crank arm is the wrencr flats on the outside of the bearing cup. I bored out the original pedal nut much larger than standard to accomodate the oversized threads on the bearing cups, and also bored out the inner side of the crank arm even bigger to let the inner bearing cup sit partially inside the crank arm for increased frame clearance. On production models, the bearing cups will be forged into the ends of the crank arms and the geometry will be adjusted to allow plenty of clearance on any frame.

  81. #81
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    I tried to make the first pair

    out of cheese, but those WERE too flexy...then I tried a pair made of uraniun, but those were too heavy and kind of HOT; so I thought that 7075 aluminum heat treated to T-6 would be a good compromise...

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bike Doc
    On production models, the bearing cups will be forged into the ends of the crank arms and the geometry will be adjusted to allow plenty of clearance on any frame.
    So they will require special cranks, i.e. come as a set including those crankarms? If so, are those cranks going to be modified versions of an existing crankset?
    Will there be a way to attach them to, say, generic Hone or Saint cranks?
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  83. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bike Doc
    In fact, I was clydesdale state cross-country champ in Utah in 1996, so not only am I a fairly big guy, I also hammer, AND I now live in Sedona, AZ, home of some of the gnarliest, rockiest, technical trails on the planet. I've also tested these on a couple of multi-day trips to Zion (Southern Utah) and a couple of trips to Boulder City, NV and a two week trip to California and Oregon.
    Oh please, yes there's a lot of rock in Sedona, but it's more XC orientated, there is no "DH" stuff like in flagstaff, you don't usually clip rocks at 30mph in sedona, and so forth. I live near Sedona, and I've also ridden in many other places. It's a very limited amount of trails and vertical compared to places like Moab. It's not at the level you seem to be making it out to be. I've killed 3 sets of crack brothers (yes, pun intended) products in Flag, but no shimanos, I beat the hell out of my 545s and they just keep going.
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  84. #84
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    Not even Bender can bend them!

    And I should know... I used to sponsor Josh out of my shop for about three years. I've ridden with him hundreds of times and been present for many of his biggest drops, AND I have worked hundreds of hours on his bikes, replacing bent and broken parts of all kinds. Knowing what kind of abuse he is capable of dishing out, I'm confident in stating that these pedals are Benderproof! He would break himself before he could break these pedals, and you would too. Ronnie Thomson agreed with me that the area you circled is NOT the weak point of the design. The weakest part is where the bearing shoulder steps down to the 17 millimeter bearing seat, and we radiused the inside of that corner. When I put the pedal in the six o'clock position and push down on the outer edge as hard as I can, the crank arm (FSA Gravity GAP Mega EXO's, not exactly a flimsy crank) flexes inward about 3/8 of an inch, the frame (Iron Horse 7 Point, also not too wimpy) twists a small amount, AND there is no detectable flex in the pedal. (Obviously, it must be flexing a small amount, just not enough to matter, when compared to the cranks and frame.)

  85. #85
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    Taking flights with the uranium ones would have been a pain in the a$$ with security nowadays as well. Good choice on the Al.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bike Doc
    out of cheese, but those WERE too flexy...then I tried a pair made of uraniun, but those were too heavy and kind of HOT; so I thought that 7075 aluminum heat treated to T-6 would be a good compromise...

  86. #86
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    Have you ridden

    Mund's wagon trail? That's got plenty of 30 mph downhill, AND plenty of milk crate sized boulders at the sasme time! How about Damifino? Killer Bee? Good to the Last Drop? G-Spot? Skidmark? Ken's Trail? Under the Radar? Scheurman's to Pyramid? Second Coming? Brewer? Any one of these SEDONA downhill trails has stuff gnarlier than the gnarliest trails in most parts of the country. And did you miss the part about testing them on two seperate trips to Boulder City, NV? Oh yeah, have you ever even been to Zion, and ridden The Flying Monkey? Check out the trail reviews for Flying Monkey on this site, and then come back and tell me again that I don't know what DH is all about...

  87. #87
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    They will come as a proprietary set

    consisting of bottom bracket, cranks and pedals. They will fit standard frames, with options for 68, 73, 83 and 100 millimeter bottom brackets.

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    So, in the future, will you be able to use them with standard cranks?

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    ^that's where you'll lose a heap of potential customers. i was all over these untill you brought up proprietary cranks. that's a large investment for a new unproven design; most people will be reluctant to buy into a full proprietary crank / bb / pedal system. one of the components goes south & you've only got one source (with limited availabily) for replacement. at worst you'll have to replace the whole system (if the company goes under, or you decide you want to change one component). silly. if you can build the pedals on a conventional crank interface, you're much more likely to turn some decent numbers.

  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bike Doc
    consisting of bottom bracket, cranks and pedals. They will fit standard frames, with options for 68, 73, 83 and 100 millimeter bottom brackets.
    When Bike Doc?
    I would like to order a set.
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  91. #91
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    this is starting to sound spendy...
    good luck holding interest!

    (still curious when!)

  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bike Doc
    Mund's wagon trail? That's got plenty of 30 mph downhill, AND plenty of milk crate sized boulders at the sasme time! How about Damifino?
    Yeah, as well as other places around sedona. It ain't no "DH" mecca, you push your bike up a drop and then ride back off of it. Munds? Yeah, that's the ONE trail that goes downhill from near the top. You're only fooling yourself if you think munds is anything special. Go ride the DH trails in flag or South Mountain more. Sedona is sorry for DH and FR, but it gets a lot of attention due to the views.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lelebebbel
    That is true, but irrelevant. I don't really think that the pedal body itself limits the stiffness on any conventional pedal. Instead, it is the axle itself - the part with the smallest cross section by a huge margin*, and it has to carry the highest moment because it is between the riders foot and the crank.

    *the thinnest part of the axle is only as wide as the inner diameter of the inner pedal bearing. And the outer diameter of that is limited by the thickness of the pedal body.

    In fact, I can see an advantage here for the flypaper pedal.

    I dont disagree with what you are saying regarding the axle, bearing and pedal body ( I have taken a pedal apart). In a standard pedal, the axle acts as a sort of backbone, providing the main load bearing capacity and stiffness. However, these pedals are so thin, that the OD of a standard pedal's alloy steel axle is probably the same, or nearly the same as the aluminum body of the pedal (the main selling point of the pedal itself). This would result in an overall stiffness (and ultimate load) higher than the aluminum body.

    But my main point was not to criticize the pedal design, but merely to clear up some common misunderstandings. I feel that this design is probably closer to an optimum balance of weight, thickness and robustness than the standard platform out there today.

  94. #94
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    if they were shaped like a normal pedal, i'd be down for sure, the shape looks like a 3 year old tried to draw a circle
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  95. #95
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    definitely wierd lookin, and i don think i would run them
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  96. #96
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    YOU push YOUR bike to the top...

    I RIDE mine UP and then down, with FlyPaper Pedals!

  97. #97
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    Form Follows Function

    There are performance reasons for everything about the shape and dimensions of FlyPaper Pedals. Bottom line is that they work and work well. Better, in fact, than what I had envisioned. If you are too concerned about what a part of your bike looks like rather than how it performs, I heard that they have some really pretty colors this year at MallWart...

  98. #98
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    What if you slip a pedal and it comes around and severs your achillies tendon? Very cool concept, but I've been attacked by pedals before.......but never ones that look like chinese stars.

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    Yes, they will be

    a bit spendy. Hayes hydraulic disc brakes cost 5 to 10 times as much as generic v-brakes. An Iron Horse Sunday costs about 25 to 30 times as much as a MallWart full suspicion bike. Maxxis D.H. tires cost 7 to 8 times what department store junque tires cost. The price of just about everything is going up ^^^^^ !!! GET A JOB!!!

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    I've spoken with several larger companies

    about liscensing the design. Whichever one I finally decide to go with, you can rest assured that they will be large enough and diversified enough in product lines to handle any warranty / replacement parts issues. As for the most commonly needed parts, the bearings are stock items that can be ordered from QBP or BTI and probably a dozen or more other distributers, and the traction pins are a low cost, stock item at your local hardware store. The crank bolts will also be a standard, hardware store item, unlike most currently available crank / bottom bracket designs...

    As for overall cost, yes, FlyPaper Pedals ain't gonna be cheap; the best never is. However I will do my best to keep the price as affordable to as many people as possible. I'm not looking to get rich off of these, just to make enough to support the research and development of a few other innovative designs that will hopefully help to re-define bike parts, the way I re-defined D.H. trails with The Flying Monkey, and re-defined freeriding with the Red Bull Rampage.

    Most of all. I'm really just in it to get the bike parts that I've always wanted. Parts that are light, strong, durable, and most of all offer superior riding performance. Notice that I never made a dime from building The Flying Monkey, in fact, it cost me a lot of time and effort, and a little bit of money in trail tools and transportation. I merely wanted the ultimate trail for ME AND MY FRIENDS to ride. Same with the Red Bull Rampage. Between scouting the location, helping Global Event Management get the permits, Meetings with G.E.M., the B.L.M. and Red Bull; selecting and contacting the riders and getting them to show up, helping to set up the course boundaries, build jumps, carry the judges couch and several of the rider's bikes up the hill, and help with the filming, as well as having my shop closed several times to go do all this stuff, it ended up costing me well over 10 grand. But rather than look at the cost like so many people do, I just looked at what I wanted to do, and then figured out how to do it, no matter what the cost. And what I wanted to do was to have the very best riders in the world come to my back yard, and push the limits of freeriding to a place further than anyone else could even imagine, for my 40th birthday party. (The first year's Rampage was held Oct 18, 19, 20, and 21, 2001, and my birthday is Oct 22, 1961...) Hey wow! It's my birthday again today!!! What sort of magic to create this year??? Hmmmmm...

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