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  1. #1
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    Yet Another 97 Judy XC question....

    Looked back on previous posts, didnt find exactly this, If I missed it sumhow, I apologize.....

    I have a 97 (98?) Rock Shox Judy XC on my Stumpy M2 Comp, got a long elastomer topped by springs down each leg ( from the top ) shock works, is stiff as hell ( i'm 180 and it barely bounces) the elastomers look fine, totally intact ( photos available upon arguement... lol) wanted to know what if anything negative happens if I pull one set completely and entirely out of the leg, seems like it 'gives' a bit more as i'm messing around, bunny hoping in the street, any problems with taking one out completely? ( I know I'm lucky the thing works at all, I'll upgrade soon if I wanna keep the bike, dont need all THAT chatter..) just wondering if I risk any damage or failure if I run Without a set in there?? Any ideas?

    Thanks Gents!!

    H

  2. #2
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    The elastomers can get hard with age, though they usually just disintegrate. I recall that some light weight people would take a stack out of the non-damper leg (left?) to get it soft enough if the soft MCU's weren't soft enough.

    It's got one long elastomer with springs down the leg? IIRC that's not original, as they came with multiple elastomers to tune the ride (you could get soft, medium, firm (I don't recall if xtra firm was an option). Looks like the suspension fork parts kit is just 1 long elastomer.
    [SIZE=1][/SIZE]

  3. #3
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    I haven't taken apart my 97 Judy XC's since about 99, but my memory is that there were multiple elastomers inside there. I've been riding a couple of different forks since then, and the new forks are much more tunable (air spring rates and damping). I am looking at fixing up my Stumpy M2 Comp and get back to riding hardtail sometimes. It's a great bike!

  4. #4
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    This was Stock from the Box-

    Thanks for the replys, guys!
    Fwiw,
    I've got Two of these Exactly the same (one down the top of EACH leg) and besides slapping a little Judy butter (great name ) down on these and re-installing, they are as bone stock as the day they were pulled out of the box... This bike was my first piece by piece buildup, I originally bought the frame and all the basic parts (minus saddle and fork) out of magazines, (MB Action, which carried SuperGo and Jenson ads..) the 13/1400 that my LBS wanted at the time was just to much for me to justify to my then GF.... I built it for a bunch less than Half this way...

    Aaaaanyway, these forks were purchased from my LBS, stock in box, As IS, unless this was modified at the Factory, the only mod I ever made was cutting the steerer tube to length....

    Anyway, any Mod info is appreciated, and just wanted to know if ONE of 'These' is enough to keep things moving, IDK, somehow I feel with one tube empty something tragic will happen.. I'm sure I've seen posts where guys swore one leg was without anything it just seems like maybe I'm asking too much from the thing and half expect it to Explode or sumthing, making suspension demands on only ONE set?? Anyway, please feel free to chime in, I love getting info from you guys, sometimes a story or idea will spark something on my end, so,... feel free!!
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Yet Another 97 Judy XC question....-hshok.jpg  


  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by kris12ax7 View Post
    I haven't taken apart my 97 Judy XC's since about 99, but my memory is that there were multiple elastomers inside there. I've been riding a couple of different forks since then, and the new forks are much more tunable (air spring rates and damping). I am looking at fixing up my Stumpy M2 Comp and get back to riding hardtail sometimes. It's a great bike!

    Oh, I'm with ya on that, theres just something, IDK, geometry, SOMEthing, it fits like a glove, is very light, strong, quick as all get out, not taking ANYTHING away from some of the new designs I had a chance to mess with recently at my LBS but IDK maybe because it's comfortable and I Know what to expect from it, but even though I've got my eye on a few 'new' FS rides, I'll ride my M2 Comp till it Dies. Then try an rebuild it and ride some more.. They are great. They just have... Something...

  6. #6
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    Taking one of the springs out will double the pressure on that plastic top cap, and any load that is transferred to the lower unsupported by a spring will have to transfer the load over the arch and to the other leg so it can press on the other spring. This is how many air spring forks work, but the lowers and arches were designed with that in mind.

    It might work, it might strip the threads on the plastic top cap that you left the spring on (collapsing the fork to bottom-out) or bending/breaking the arch (potentially catastrophic).

    If you really like the fork, you could always just replace the elastomers with new from a place such as: suspensionforkparts . net / eshop / index . php ? _ a= viewProd & productId = 125
    I've never dealt with them, so I can't vouch for their customer service.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by kris12ax7 View Post
    Taking one of the springs out will double the pressure on that plastic top cap, and any load that is transferred to the lower unsupported by a spring will have to transfer the load over the arch and to the other leg so it can press on the other spring. This is how many air spring forks work, but the lowers and arches were designed with that in mind.

    It might work, it might strip the threads on the plastic top cap that you left the spring on (collapsing the fork to bottom-out) or bending/breaking the arch (potentially catastrophic).

    If you really like the fork, you could always just replace the elastomers with new from a place such as: suspensionforkparts . net / eshop / index . php ? _ a= viewProd & productId = 125
    I've never dealt with them, so I can't vouch for their customer service.
    Hey Kris,

    Funny you said that, after I had posted the other night, I replaced the cap sans spring/elastomer, and took it out front to 'bounce around' real quick, and all I kept thinking was 'I've modded this beyond the scope of what RS intended and its a matter of time before an epic fail'.... I ran back in an slapped the 'suspended' cap with teflon tape to increase friction and grip on the threads, but mostly JUST to keep my paranoia in check... I'm guessing it's not the right idea either, nor is cutting down one of the elastomers so it would 'engage' later in the forks' travel but still be engaged overall.. I was hoping maybe some other lunatic had sucessfully acomplished this before and might chime in, but with NO one adding that type of info, maybe that tells me how intelligent that level of 'mod' really is...
    Anyway, I believe typically the old M2's were running either 62 or 80mm of travel, yet, one of the guys 'round here, is running a 'vintage' M2 has a Dart fork running 100mm of travel, do you or anyone think this is an acceptable amount of travel for the geometry of that '97 frame? I dont want to spend $ on a fork that will screw the handling I've come to love so much, and the guy I spoke to originally doesnt seem to be around lately, I'm curious what you or any other experienced 'fork' guys think about that combination... I'd like to get as much travel as I can on this bike, but how much is 'too' much????

    Any/All input welcome on this one, guys....

  8. #8
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    I'd recommend throwing that old Judy away and installing a modern fork that you've limited the travel on. That way it won't throw off your geometry but you'll still have the benefit of a much stiffer fork with a modern spring and with a modern damper.

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    My Judy has 3 inches of exposed stanchion, which would be 80mm travel. With the old hard elastomers, it never gets full travel though.

    I'm going to install a 100mm travel air fork that I took off another bike onto my Stumpy. The fork has holes for v brake bosses.

    One thing I would consider is a Rock Shox Reba limited to 80mm travel. They only have disc brake mounts, but that would be an upgrade, and front brake power is more important than rear brake power anyway. The fork would be a huge improvement in terms of adjustability of compression and rebound damping and spring rate.

  10. #10
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    You have a lot of options for 3" travel forks, or 4" travel which can be limited to 3", aside from the Judy. Pretty much any RS fork with a Solo or Dual Air spring will work, as will any Fox Float or F-series. You might also want to look at the Manitou Minute and R7, though depending on the model you might not be able to adjust their travel (Dougal or Mullen119 would be able to answer that).

  11. #11
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    Thanks guys!

    Do you think 100mm is too much for my 97 Stumpy M2 Comp, or is that the limit?? I've seen some models that have the lockout feature but some guys claiming some air shocks are prone to failure, by contrast I'm sure a Bad New air shock would blow my old XC away.
    I dont have enough reviews under my belt to deceide what direction to go, suffice it to say I intend to get rid of the Judy, I see no intelligent reason to dump $ into something when so many guys seem to be quite happy with the current technology.
    You guys got any SPECIFIC V brake models youve experienced that I should look at for my 97? I'm guessing something that starts at 80mm and can lock out? I'm concerned something with 100mm and no adjustability for Less might lock me into something that would alter the geometry of my frame in a bad way and leave me no options....

    Ideas? Advice? Thanks!

    Again, I just Thank all of you guys for your insight, and taking the time, this forum is such a terrific resource. lts a real pleasure to find fellow lunatics who love the sport as much as we do.

    Kris, what bike are you planning to put that 100mm on?
    Bad, I'd like to stay RS, do you hava specific v brake model I should look at? meantime I'll ck the manitou an fox sites. (fell out of love with the orignal manitou back in the day, but times changed...) Also: Steerer tube, tapered? what material? it's old by comparison, but still a relatively light XC frame, how heavy should this thing be?
    Thanks again!
    Last edited by StumpyH; 10-19-2012 at 04:07 PM.

  12. #12
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    Be careful when riding with those forks dude. If you expect to abuse them like a modern fork they'll snap/break/implode on you, and the results could be disastrous. Trust, I've been there.
    "You go up the hill, you go down the hill."

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by m0ngy View Post
    Be careful when riding with those forks dude. If you expect to abuse them like a modern fork they'll snap/break/implode on you, and the results could be disastrous. Trust, I've been there.
    the old Judy? yea, not alot of abusive anything right now, I put the 2nd elastomer back just cause Failure was twitchin me out. I just want to get a few nice Fall rides in, while I'm saving my $ for a new shock, the rest of the bike is still really 'there', I'm just not convinced the shock is gonna hold up, the ride is way too stiff, and I'd like to put it on a diet (my Judy has a Steel steerer tube!)
    So I'm just looking for something that will give me plush, have V bosses so I dont have to upgrade the brakes/front hub, not be a problem child or prone to failures/defects, and that wont cost a freakin Grand to put on a 15 yr old bike I'm too stuborn to get rid of...

    Looked at RS, looks like V brakes are going the way of 26'ers and Canti brakes and everything else.... I may be out of luck....

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by StumpyH View Post
    Looked at RS, looks like V brakes are going the way of 26'ers and Canti brakes and everything else.... I may be out of luck....

    My first decent bike was an M2 stumpy, a '96 model I believe. I loved that thing, did thousands of k's on it, swapped out parts on it ten times, got stolen, got it back, rebuilt it. Got stolen (again) in the end, loved that bike.

    Back in the day, RS were total garbage, and imo not much has changed. I'm a Marzocchi man through and through, mostly because they've always been tough, reliable, and buttery smooth. The classic Z1 orange bombers are what you're looking for, or the red XC Z2 version. Those two particular examples are collectors items now, and are quite valuable, but there are still plenty of less collectible bombers from that era if you look around.

    Search "marzocchi bomber" on US eBay and see how you go.
    "You go up the hill, you go down the hill."

  15. #15
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    Idk, Looks like anything new w/ vbrakes is, well, junk.... Am I wrong??

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by m0ngy View Post
    My first decent bike was an M2 stumpy, a '96 model I believe. I loved that thing, did thousands of k's on it, swapped out parts on it ten times, got stolen, got it back, rebuilt it. Got stolen (again) in the end, loved that bike.

    Back in the day, RS were total garbage, and imo not much has changed. I'm a Marzocchi man through and through, mostly because they've always been tough, reliable, and buttery smooth. The classic Z1 orange bombers are what you're looking for, or the red XC Z2 version. Those two particular examples are collectors items now, and are quite valuable, but there are still plenty of less collectible bombers from that era if you look around.

    Search "marzocchi bomber" on US eBay and see how you go.
    Nothing new, huh? damnit.... always wanted disc, just not right NOW....

    Maybe a Not so vintage-vintage sid or Zokes.... what a letdown... I'm willing to spend some $ for new but used, you never know wtf your getting into... oh well...
    Thanks again for the help!!

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by StumpyH View Post
    Nothing new, huh? hmmm....
    I thought you were trying to do this as cheaply as possible? I'm pretty sure there are newer XC style forks with brake bosses, like from 5 years ago. Why not just put a disc up front? You can get a Deore disc brake set for 50 bucks per end.
    "You go up the hill, you go down the hill."

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by m0ngy View Post
    I thought you were trying to do this as cheaply as possible? I'm pretty sure there are newer XC style forks with brake bosses, like from 5 years ago. Why not just put a disc up front? You can get a Deore disc brake set for 50 bucks per end.
    No, believe me, I AM, I dont want to throw crazy money at an old bike (even though I still love it and it's in great shape) and though I never rode crazy drops or anything more than intermediate tech. trail rides with this bike, we all know potentially every ride weakens a frame, I didnt want to get deep into parts on this when I'm thinking (long term) a FS is in my future but would still keep this ride in my stable... Anyway, I've had my eye on ebay, figured an old Sid or something along the line would be a decent upgrade, I was only considering new, cause a few guys from the forum have these older frames an had upgraded with more recent RS offerings, and as I've messed around a bit on some newer bike/forks at LBS, it seems theyve changed a great deal in overall feel.

    I'd love to bump the front up to disc, I'd just assumed the weight penalty up from V brake in the front wouldnt help me at all, and therefore hadnt looked, didnt realize a Deore was 50?? I have to think about this, I wanted the Disc and they were juuust coming out mainstream around the time I finished this bike build back in the day, would love to have disc, that would open up my fork choices and let me have a ball... I'm just not sure if I want to sink Longer dollars into the frame...
    Yes I am...

    But Seriously, what would you consider a Higher end Zoke a few years old that I might fall into? I'll be looking for that or a Sid first, then weigh that against a total front end redesign and see how the $$ stacks up..

  19. #19
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    I want to be Practical, but I'm totally capable of Stupid should the deal of the century arise... LMAO

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by m0ngy View Post
    I'm a Marzocchi man through and through, mostly because they've always been tough, reliable, and buttery smooth.
    You mean they used to be. Marzocchi has had several years of horrible quality issues. They've gotten better recently, but still aren't out of the woods. They're also heavy and don't have the best dampers. It's safest to just stay away from them entirely.

  21. #21
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    Screw it, I guess I could just ride w/out a front brake for a while.... LMAO

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by bad mechanic View Post
    You mean they used to be. Marzocchi has had several years of horrible quality issues. They've gotten better recently, but still aren't out of the woods. They're also heavy and don't have the best dampers. It's safest to just stay away from them entirely.
    See, thats what I'm hearing, conflcting reports from not only guys with experience but also guys IN the industry who get to play all day with these things, I got the impression for XC maybe the recent 'zokes werent up to where they used to be. I'm fine buying a used older shock, or brand new and save up a bit for it, so long as I'm taking a risk on something that doesnt have a @#$$-load of issues, recalls, failures, whathaveyou. I've been out of it for a while and am playing Catch up on forks, accessories, gear, so here I'm kind of looking to you guys as to what the best direction to go might be...

  23. #23
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    In my shady recollection, in the late 90's RS was on top, with Marzocchi being better for the trip crown DH forks than their XC stuff, and Manitou, Fox, werent quite all there yet, having strength/failure issues moreso than the former... Now I'm sure theres always individual forks that have failures, or guys riding the gear their on WAY harder than the manuf. designed/intended, but for intermediate, advanced XC fork at 100mm of travel, what's the 'STANDARD' of the day?? Back then, I seem to remember SID was the favorite, with a Judy SL or XC if you cudnt afford it... love RS or hate em Aside, whats the XC Shock everybody wants these days??

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by bad mechanic View Post
    You mean they used to be. Marzocchi has had several years of horrible quality issues. They've gotten better recently, but still aren't out of the woods. They're also heavy and don't have the best dampers. It's safest to just stay away from them entirely.
    If we're talking older forks, like those with brake bosses, I think you'd agree Marzocchi are in another league entirely, in terms of plushness, seals, bushings, ability to take abuse, little maintenance, and general reliability. But you're right, since manufacturing was moved to Taiwan in '08 they have had issues. I had two pairs of '08 forks (55 ETA & 66 RC3) and they both had issues. However, I'm confident Marzocchi forks bought before that period (pre '08) and now, like the past couple of years, are far less problematic, if not problem free. I do acknowledge they're still having a few issues with the Roco line.

    I'd recommend throwing that old Judy away and installing a modern fork that you've limited the travel on. That way it won't throw off your geometry but you'll still have the benefit of a much stiffer fork with a modern spring and with a modern damper.
    This is good advice. Forget the Judy, they're crap, and forget about getting a Sid; they're really flexy and were designed to be light, for racing, not for durability.

    Here's a Deore BR-M596 brake set (F&R) for US$122

    Not sure about fork choice, but I'd still stay clear of RS, or Manitou, tbh. I don't really like Fox either, a lot of people find they have dodgy seals, require very regular maintenance, and are just an over-hyped product generally.
    "You go up the hill, you go down the hill."

  25. #25
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    Friend of mine just ordered a Rock Shock Recon Silver for his older Specialized Rock Hopper.

    V brake compatible and $169 at Blue Sky. Might work for your application.

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