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  1. #1
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    Why don't other companies use Kashima coating?

    Does anyone know why Fox Shox is the only company to use the Kashima coating? It is not owned by Fox, so it would probably cost other companies the same amount to get the Kashima coating, which is clearly the best.

  2. #2
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    Price maybe. It's been around in the moto industry for at least a few years.
    "...like sex with the trail." - Boe

  3. #3
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    Kashima coat appears to have been developed by a japanese company called Miyaki Corp, so Fox have probably licensed the use of it. Their license may preclude other fork companies from being able to use it.

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    Companies in the motorcycle and automobile industry have been coating their shock stanchions in Titanium Nitride and Carbon for a long time. I am pretty sure that DT Swiss high end forks use a carbon coating but am not 100 percent sure. The nice thing about Kashima is that Molybdenum disulfide is added to the aluminum through electric current, which anodizes it, as well as filling the minute imperfections in the porous raw material, making it buttery smooth.

  5. #5
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    what is the difference between the Kashima coating and a more readily available TiNitried coating?

    I've always wondered why bicycle companies don't use TiNitried for there upper end offerings. It's pretty common in motor sports after all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by customfab View Post
    what is the difference between the Kashima coating and a more readily available TiNitried coating?

    I've always wondered why bicycle companies don't use TiNitried for there upper end offerings. It's pretty common in motor sports after all.
    Rockshox uses a Titanium Nitrade coating on their upper end forks I thought. I think the RS Boxxer world cup has that coating on the stanchions. I'm not sure how big the difference is though.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by customfab View Post
    what is the difference between the Kashima coating and a more readily available TiNitried coating?

    I've always wondered why bicycle companies don't use TiNitried for there upper end offerings. It's pretty common in motor sports after all.
    There were a few TiN Marzocchi works forks out in the wild.

    I'd guess what it adds in cost vs. how much the average rider crashes and nicks their stanchion it's not worth it.

    I'd like it, but I don't crash my brains out.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by aklinkman1989 View Post
    Rockshox uses a Titanium Nitrade coating on their upper end forks I thought. I think the RS Boxxer world cup has that coating on the stanchions. I'm not sure how big the difference is though.
    Nope. They used TiNi on the Boxxer WC only on 2002.

    Blackbox riders get to ride with DLC stanchions.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    There were a few TiN Marzocchi works forks out in the wild.

    I'd guess what it adds in cost vs. how much the average rider crashes and nicks their stanchion it's not worth it.

    I'd like it, but I don't crash my brains out.
    I think there is plenty of margin in top tear forks for it. Honestly I don't see how they sell forks over 1k without it.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacubaya View Post
    Nope. They used TiNi on the Boxxer WC only on 2002.

    Blackbox riders get to ride with DLC stanchions.
    Oh, your right . That an the 2002 SID'S it looks like. Im not too familiar with diamond like coating. I hear it is used in moto gp alot over a TiNi coating, maybe because of price or wear over time is better. idk?

  11. #11
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    FWIW, Fox using Kashima has them late to the game. KOWA has used it for many years before Fox.

    In regards to titanium nitride and it's sister coatings, about ten years ago I was researching various coatings for aluminum suspension products. The titanium nitride engineers schooled me on the process and explained it was temporary coating when applied to aluminum. This was the same era as when RockShox was coating aluminum tubes with Titanium Nitride. Shortly thereafter I was noticing the coating flaking off the RS tubes.

    Titanium nitride works well on steel.

    DLC, (diamond like carbon). I can not verify they use this, but maybe. I am not positive but believe DLC is a better on steel product also. Normally the dark black coatings applied to aluminum fork tubes is one form of hard anodize.

    Suffice to say, that if DLC was viable on aluminum the moto guys would already be using it, I just don't recall seeing it on aluminum.

    For mtb, the truly ultimate will be when they DLC a carbon fibre tube. Showa has already done a carbon tubed MTB fork with chrome plated surfaces in the mid 1990's.

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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by aklinkman1989 View Post
    Oh, your right . That an the 2002 SID'S it looks like. Im not too familiar with diamond like coating. I hear it is used in moto gp alot over a TiNi coating, maybe because of price or wear over time is better. idk?
    DLC has a lower friction property and is much less abrasive than titanium nitride.

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  13. #13
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    TiN and DLC are coatings used on cutting tools, usually made from High Speed Steel or Carbide. Problem is that the layers are deposited on and only a few microns thick. A hard anodize coat can be 50+ microns thick.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by PMK View Post
    Shortly thereafter I was noticing the coating flaking off the RS tubes.



    PK
    I have seen a few(2) local riders and a few threads on here that have had their Kashima coating flaking off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by michael1 View Post
    Does anyone know why Fox Shox is the only company to use the Kashima coating? It is not owned by Fox, so it would probably cost other companies the same amount to get the Kashima coating, which is clearly the best.
    Kowa has used Kashima coating since 1998.

  16. #16
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    Rock Shox stopped using the TiNi because it didn;t even last a full season. The "slippery silver" that came on 2003-2005 Boxxers was complete crap and actually made the surface worse.

    The black box guys have been running DLC since the 2010 season so it would be safe to guess that SRAM is not yet comfortable to offer it for sale.

    Kashima is probably uder a contract with Fox for a few years or the other guys(Rock Shox and Marz) don't want to jump on the band wagon with something that has been marketed by Fox already.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    I have seen a few(2) local riders and a few threads on here that have had their Kashima coating flaking off.

    Yes, I noticed those but have not read them. The big difference is that Kashima is a process for aluminum where titanium nitride or it's sisters is not for aluminum.

    As I said, I have not read the Kashima flaking off posts, but having work in an aerospace facility that does many forms of plating, including anodize, poor prep may be the root of it.

    BTW, I'm glad that you have seen the Kashima flaking off, we have been lucky so far on the FOX 40 Kashima on the tandem.

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  18. #18
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    How much does it cost to coat stanchions with DLC? What method does RS use for its deposition?

  19. #19
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    One issue with Kashima is that it may be slicker (allowing better suspension movement) it is certainly not more durable. I can't speak to the % performance benefits, but it does flake off and it certainly does not increase your service interval. I have seen quite a few cooked Kashima CSUs as well as 'flaking' of the material, usually right up near the press-fit into the crown.

    Without any testing, I'm guessing, but I'm not convinced that there is any performance benefit. If you fork gets a little dirty or your splash/bath oil isn't all up on your foamies keeping things running smooth, I would bet that this would mitigate any performance benefit you might get from the Kashima coating.

    One thing is for sure: it allows Fox to charge more for forks, rear shocks and replacement parts. I replaced a Kashima CSU for a customer last week...

    Fox's press release for Kashima would prove me wrong, however:

    "Kashima coated stanchions maintain better lubrication characteristics, and the lightweight aluminum components treated with Kashima Coat attain a level of hardness and abrasion resistance four times tougher than standard hard-anodized aluminum.

    http://www.prweb.com/releases/fox-ra...web3574124.htm

    Beyond the obvious benefit of added durability, the significant decrease in friction proved to provide a tangible increase in suspension performance. Athletes who tested and raced with Kashima coated FOX Racing Shox suspension reported an improved overall consistency and feel with Kashima Coat."

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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by trailbildr View Post
    One issue with Kashima is that it may be slicker (allowing better suspension movement) it is certainly not more durable. I can't speak to the % performance benefits, but it does flake off and it certainly does not increase your service interval. I have seen quite a few cooked Kashima CSUs as well as 'flaking' of the material, usually right up near the press-fit into the crown.
    I would argue that is a Fox quality control issue, the normal anodising on their other forks doesn't fare much better.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluntrager View Post
    How much does it cost to coat stanchions with DLC? What method does RS use for its deposition?
    Are you asking from an OEM level or from an individual level?

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by kan3 View Post
    Are you asking from an OEM level or from an individual level?
    Individual level. I'd like to develop the methods to do it myself (I'm quite knowledgeable in physics and chemistry) and market it to people in my area depending on its feasibility.

  23. #23
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    It has been noted and discussed that "Kashima" is only Foxs name for a similar coating to what's been around in automotive and motorcycle circles for a good few years. As to it being a marketing tool and not sure if it's better than the lower end stuff?? Unless the seals are vastly different, try cycling an Evolution Fox and then a Kashima one, it's night and day how stictiony the Evolution is and how buttery smooth the Kashima one is.

    Quote Originally Posted by trailbildr View Post
    One issue with Kashima is that it may be slicker (allowing better suspension movement) it is certainly not more durable. I can't speak to the % performance benefits, but it does flake off and it certainly does not increase your service interval. I have seen quite a few cooked Kashima CSUs as well as 'flaking' of the material, usually right up near the press-fit into the crown.

    Without any testing, I'm guessing, but I'm not convinced that there is any performance benefit. If you fork gets a little dirty or your splash/bath oil isn't all up on your foamies keeping things running smooth, I would bet that this would mitigate any performance benefit you might get from the Kashima coating.

    One thing is for sure: it allows Fox to charge more for forks, rear shocks and replacement parts. I replaced a Kashima CSU for a customer last week...

    Fox's press release for Kashima would prove me wrong, however:

    "Kashima coated stanchions maintain better lubrication characteristics, and the lightweight aluminum components treated with Kashima Coat attain a level of hardness and abrasion resistance four times tougher than standard hard-anodized aluminum.

    FOX Racing Shox to Utilize Slick Technology, Kashima Coat, in its 2011 Mountain Bike Suspension Fork Product Line

    Beyond the obvious benefit of added durability, the significant decrease in friction proved to provide a tangible increase in suspension performance. Athletes who tested and raced with Kashima coated FOX Racing Shox suspension reported an improved overall consistency and feel with Kashima Coat."

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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluntrager View Post
    Individual level. I'd like to develop the methods to do it myself (I'm quite knowledgeable in physics and chemistry) and market it to people in my area depending on its feasibility.
    I can tell you that companies that do it on moto forks charge around $150-200 per USD fork stanchion. So it should be about that much or less for a mountain bike upper. Moto suspension companies have a decent markup and usually charge about 1.5-2x that per stanchion.

  25. #25
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    Fox have the exclusive partnership on this for the bike industry, it has some benefits but it still isn't as good as Marzocchi's nickel coating! The gold colour is just that, colour, they could in theory make them blue, but the gold looks more prestige! (read: expensive!)

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