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  1. #1
    "El Whatever"
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    Good job! ROCO Air R Disassembly pics

    This is to thank AM for a little box that showed up here at my office today.

    It had a Roco Air in it and what were fresh news from Tas three weeks ago

    I'll be tinkering with it later tonight as it needs to be fixed from somewhere...

    Pics later on... I just couldn't help but posting it from excitement!

    AM... BIG THANK YOU!!!!
    (You're the dog's bollox, mate!)
    Check my Site

  2. #2
    Trophy Husband
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    You're going to love that thing! I love mine.
    Extreme stationary biker.

  3. #3
    No, that's not phonetic
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    TST or unbuttered?
    My video techniques can be found in this thread.

  4. #4
    "El Whatever"
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    Quote Originally Posted by tscheezy
    TST or unbuttered?
    Normal R, nothing fancy... I'll put up some pics later or tomorrow...
    Check my Site

  5. #5
    thats right living legend
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    Well WTF is AM running?

    I just recieved a six page PM from him, and he didn't say a thing.

  6. #6
    "El Whatever"
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    Well here are some pics. It's kinda old news nowadays as there is Roco Air R no more for 2008... but hey, it's its first day with me!!

    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/8511008@N05/1648772432/" title="Photo Sharing"><img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2228/1648772432_51c6fa3425_b.jpg" width="1024" height="768" alt="Roco_04" /></a>

    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/8511008@N05/1647916403/" title="Photo Sharing"><img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2175/1647916403_4d6d67131a_b.jpg" width="1024" height="768" alt="Roco_08" /></a>

    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/8511008@N05/1648778452/" title="Photo Sharing"><img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2410/1648778452_da4df9ca8d_b.jpg" width="1024" height="768" alt="Roco_03" /></a>

    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/8511008@N05/1648796380/" title="Photo Sharing"><img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2057/1648796380_0f1a9d3b0f_b.jpg" width="1024" height="768" alt="Roco_02" /></a>

    Here's the bottom out adjust thingy...

    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/8511008@N05/1648764666/" title="Photo Sharing"><img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2068/1648764666_553b8d958a_b.jpg" width="1024" height="768" alt="Roco_05" /></a>

    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/8511008@N05/1647949657/" title="Photo Sharing"><img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2380/1647949657_bc86d1275c_b.jpg" width="1024" height="768" alt="Roco_06" /></a>

    From it came a seal that isn't looking good... Bad Zoke. This shock has not many miles on it...

    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/8511008@N05/1647943881/" title="Photo Sharing"><img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2075/1647943881_415c274808_b.jpg" width="1024" height="768" alt="Roco_07" /></a>

    Here's the leak that made AM to send the shock to Mexico for proper disposal...

    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/8511008@N05/1647910015/" title="Photo Sharing"><img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2082/1647910015_f924688855_b.jpg" width="1024" height="768" alt="Roco_09" /></a>

    I'll write Zoke to see if they can send me the rebuild kit (they should) and instructions for rebuilding.

    I'll take it tomorrow to a shop where they have a bench vise, 'cos I couldn't open the thing with the old tube trick to access the damaged seal.
    Check my Site

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackagness
    Well WTF is AM running?

    I just recieved a six page PM from him, and he didn't say a thing.
    Another RP23 and I'm spanking it hard. Perhaps too hard

    ....next shock please !~!

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp
    Well here are some pics. It's kinda old news nowadays as there is Roco Air R no more for 2008... but hey, it's its first day with me!!
    ...
    found the macro setting on the cammie did you ?~?

  9. #9
    Nightriding rules SuperModerator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp
    Well here are some pics. It's kinda old news nowadays as there is Roco Air R no more for 2008... but hey, it's its first day with me!!
    Awesome, Warp!

    and very well done, AM!

    nice... so after the seal fix, it will be a BomberBlade

  10. #10
    thats right living legend
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    Quote Originally Posted by All Mountain
    Another RP23 and I'm spanking it hard. Perhaps too hard

    ....next shock please !~!

    Is it the old Rp23 or an 08? Doesn't the 08 have some sort of BO adjust, along with the high volume air can? It's like you've been working for Fox, cause that sounds like something right down your ally.

    Either way if your about to destroy "another" air shock don't you think it's time to go back to a man's shock?... ie coil.

  11. #11
    "El Whatever"
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    Quote Originally Posted by All Mountain
    found the macro setting on the cammie did you ?~?
    We have to up it to standards of "other boards"...

    (I didn't posted some macros that are ridiculous )

    BTW... the shock's shaft is 32mm just like the forks. Actually, the wiper reminded me some of Enduroforkseals... I'm not saying they're the same, though.
    Check my Site

  12. #12
    Paste eater
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp
    We have to up it to standards of "other boards"...
    ya, for a minute, I thought I might be in the Turner Forum. On a separate matter, 'Zoke got rid of the Roco R for 2008?

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jwind
    ya, for a minute, I thought I might be in the Turner Forum. On a separate matter, 'Zoke got rid of the Roco R for 2008?
    It got enhanced with a 3 position switch (low speed compression).

  14. #14
    Nightriding rules SuperModerator
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    Quote Originally Posted by All Mountain
    It got enhanced with a 3 position switch (low speed compression).
    ditto

    Roco Air 3PL


  15. #15
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    Looks light.

  16. #16
    "El Whatever"
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    Ok... this was wrenching day here.

    The VDub has new distributor, spark plugs, cables, fresh oil and a new hydraulic fluid reservoir for the power steering.

    I got to work a bit on the Roco too...

    Good news, I could open it.
    Bad news, I'll probably won't get to apply for Warranty.

    I almost broke my wrists trying to open the air canister turning it counterclockwise, like any shock.

    Wrong... It was to the other side.

    One of the "particularities" of the design is that for any air sleeve chamber work, you have to fully service the thing.

    How did I discover that?? The canister goes off by turning clockwise and it has to be extracted to the upper eyelet side. Thing is, the canister won't go away unless you remove the air valve stem and the rebound adjuster assembly... Which I did.

    Now... When I tried to put everything together, obviously the rebound assy was going nowhere. I nicked the shaft on the rebound needle and there's some detent balls under the rebound adjuster that like to fly away.

    I said to myself... "No biggie, I'll open the damper... it has a cover over what looks a valve stem"... Well, Marzocchi in their infinite wisdom and on behalf of user serviceability made this cover to have a PENTAGON drive.

    As at last... I dunno what they use for lubrication, but to me it looks like pure crap. There are damaged seals everywhere and while I admit I was no gentle opening it, I haven't been so with the "crappy" 5th Air or the Float and they have had no problems.

    Here's the guts of the Roco...

    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/8511008@N05/1662710813/" title="Photo Sharing"><img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2264/1662710813_dc790cd263_b.jpg" width="1024" height="768" alt="Roco_17" /></a>


    This was the state of the seals...

    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/8511008@N05/1663604990/" title="Photo Sharing"><img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2131/1663604990_bf634a2cc1_b.jpg" width="1024" height="768" alt="Roco_10" /></a>

    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/8511008@N05/1662730509/" title="Photo Sharing"><img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2335/1662730509_64773866a2_b.jpg" width="1024" height="768" alt="Roco_14" /></a>

    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/8511008@N05/1663593268/" title="Photo Sharing"><img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2325/1663593268_260ef1b098_b.jpg" width="1024" height="768" alt="Roco_11" /></a>

    The head of the shock... Notice the design. Canister goes off counterclockwise.

    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/8511008@N05/1662720759/" title="Photo Sharing"><img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2106/1662720759_d03ebdca3a_b.jpg" width="1024" height="768" alt="Roco_15" /></a>

    The high volume air sleeve...

    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/8511008@N05/1662715827/" title="Photo Sharing"><img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2303/1662715827_a196bbf052_b.jpg" width="1024" height="768" alt="Roco_16" /></a>

    AM... it looks like you bottomed the shock a few times...
    (However, the bottom out o-ring should not be this bad)

    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/8511008@N05/1663582234/" title="Photo Sharing"><img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2075/1663582234_da7fe72e89_b.jpg" width="1024" height="768" alt="Roco_12" /></a>

    The way the bottom out adjustment works if a work of genius... You open the bottom part of the air sleeve and it simply "fills" a given space at atmospheric pressure... You close it and you have a negative spring and a vacuum that will counteract the positive spring. Clever.

    I'll make my best to make this one work out, but it'll take time... The wisest thing to do was to send the shock right away to Zoke... But I'm dumb and curious like a cat. I needed to see for myself.
    Check my Site

  17. #17
    Ti is addictive
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    Geez Warp, that's a great autopsy..........What gives with Zocci lately and there Shiate seals????? Were thier Warranty and service departments getting lonely as no one ever had problems pre06. Those were the good ole days as anyone or any shop could fix the fork on site in a day or 2 versus the crap they've been shipping lately. Kinda reminds me of the ole Manipoo/Judy days.
    "Can I put a Totem on a FTM?".....Originally Posted by All Mountain

  18. #18
    Trophy Husband
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp
    ...The wisest thing to do was to send the shock right away to Zoke... But I'm dumb and curious like a cat. I needed to see for myself.
    PUSH?
    Extreme stationary biker.

  19. #19
    thats right living legend
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    Now we know why those things were going for so cheap.

    Cause they are cheap.

  20. #20
    "El Whatever"
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    Quote Originally Posted by geolover
    PUSH?
    They work only on the Coil version, AFAIK.

    Geo... send yours to service. Don't try to fix it yourself unless you make sure you have all tools and spares.
    Check my Site

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp
    ...
    AM... it looks like you bottomed the shock a few times...
    ...
    BUSTED !~!~!~! sorry mate

  22. #22
    Nightriding rules SuperModerator
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    wow...very interesting stuff Warp!

    Hope you get the seals and a way around the weird tool ...call Marzocchi USA using skype and tell us what they say

  23. #23
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    great stuff Warp,

    always bringing us good pics and knowledge!!!

    about the pentagon drive, i donīt know why they do that... just to piss everyone off???
    i found on the net that it is used on water faucets, or water mains, but i know nothing more...
    Could you post a pic of it?

    i have the same problem with a radium shock... i already have a valve to use on the platform damping side, but i donīt know how to open the damn thing...

    anyway, good luck bringing the roco back to life!
    are you sending it to marz or buying the seals?

    Marcolino

  24. #24
    "El Whatever"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcolino
    Could you post a pic of it?

    anyway, good luck bringing the roco back to life!
    are you sending it to marz or buying the seals?

    Marcolino
    Obrigado!

    Here's the pentagon drive. I've worked in the machine shop and gas turbine fields and I had never seen one. I'm not saying they don't exist, but it's not a common tool.

    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/8511008@N05/1675132003/" title="Photo Sharing"><img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2205/1675132003_9501356b64_b.jpg" width="1024" height="768" alt="Roco_" /></a>

    I think I'll buy the parts and rebuild it myself... sending it over there and back will not be cheap or fast anyways. That is if Marzocchi doesn't have any more surprises inside and no more special tool are required.
    Check my Site

  25. #25
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    hum...thatīs the devils work, ehehe.

    the pentagon bolt on the radium is the oposite, the roco is like a hex, but the radium bolt is more like a nut. roco is recesed while on the radium, the recesed part is the outside of the hex...

    strange things we see these days... eheheh.

    keep up the good work!

    abrazo,

    Marcolino

  26. #26
    Boyeeee
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    This explains why my shock suddenly stopped holding air last week. I guess it needs new seals.

    Unfortunately, the bike is at my house in Rancho Bernardo and might be going up in flames soon....

  27. #27
    Nightriding rules SuperModerator
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    Quote Originally Posted by BCBlur
    This explains why my shock suddenly stopped holding air last week. I guess it needs new seals.

    Unfortunately, the bike is at my house in Rancho Bernardo and might be going up in flames soon....
    bummer about the fire... I hope your house is spared...

  28. #28
    Boyeeee
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    Thanks.

    I took pictures of my bikes. We'll see how the insurance company deals.

  29. #29
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    Hey, that Roco looks like mine. Just in better shape...

    All of my seals were cooked, "rubble" ( probably a o-ring) in the end of the air chamber and massive corrosion on the nickel air chamber. It doesn't look like Marzocchi bothered to grease it when they put it together. I couldn't find any evidence of grease any where, not even under the o-rings. Not too good for a two month old shock.


    The inside of my air chamber, bone dry and full of o-rings bits




    The corrosion on the air chamber. This stuff flakes off when you touch it, doesn't give me a warm fuzzy

    Alea Jacta Est

  30. #30
    "El Whatever"
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    Quote Originally Posted by bbbr
    Hey, that Roco looks like mine. Just in better shape...

    All of my seals were cooked, "rubble" ( probably a o-ring) in the end of the air chamber and massive corrosion on the nickel air chamber. It doesn't look like Marzocchi bothered to grease it when they put it together. I couldn't find any evidence of grease any where, not even under the o-rings. Not too good for a two month old shock.
    Did they warranty it?

    Or did they give any procedure to rebuild it?
    Big Zoke's marketing says it's "end user serviceable"...
    Check my Site

  31. #31
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    Yep, they warranted it. Right now it's in California being worked on, gonna call tomorrow and find out when I'll get it back.

    Marzocchi originally offered to send out a seal kit to save me some down time but i when mentioned the corrosion they wanted it back. My cousin's Roco is also leaking but hasn't shown any tenancies toward rotting, yet.
    Alea Jacta Est

  32. #32
    "El Whatever"
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    Quote Originally Posted by bbbr
    Yep, they warranted it. Right now it's in California being worked on, gonna call tomorrow and find out when I'll get it back.

    Marzocchi originally offered to send out a seal kit to save me some down time but i when mentioned the corrosion they wanted it back. My cousin's Roco is also leaking but hasn't shown any tenancies toward rotting, yet.
    This one seems to be ok... but the air sleeve not coming out apart like yours may mean it's corroded.

    I'll send a few pics to Zoke and see what they say.

    Did they mention any pricing on seal kit? Special tools?

    Oh, I'm maybe asking too much, but who did you deal with at Zoke?... PM if you don't feel like posting here.

    Thanks, Bro!!
    Check my Site

  33. #33
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    Get Zoke to send you the seal kit under warranty dood. DIY is better than Zoke.

  34. #34
    the 36 year old grom
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    looks like major friction problems...... why do you guys swarm to buy this junk???


    P.S. I'm selling kicks to the balls for $30. Just PM me if interested.

  35. #35
    Trophy Husband
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    Quote Originally Posted by demo_slug
    ...... why do you guys swarm to buy this junk???
    I like to do three things in my life:

    1) Buy obsolete bicycle frames
    2) Buy expensive beer
    3) "Swarm" to buy junk
    Extreme stationary biker.

  36. #36
    the 36 year old grom
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    Quote Originally Posted by geolover
    I like to do three things in my life:

    1) Buy obsolete bicycle frames
    2) Buy expensive beer
    3) "Swarm" to buy junk
    I like expensive beer too. but I also like cheap beer.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by demo_slug
    I like expensive beer too. but I also like cheap beer.
    Of course, me too (the Hamms Bear is my avatar). Beer ist rad.

    Same with shocks. I like expensive shocks, but I also like cheap shocks.
    Extreme stationary biker.

  38. #38
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    Warp-

    Sadly i spaced on writing the guys name down when i talked to Marzocchi USA. From what i heard in the background it sounded like he was in a shop when i called (late in the afternoon).

    The seal kit was going to be sent to me free since I'm still under warranty and this was an obvious screw up. Two months of ownership, under 40 hrs of use (ended up working far too much for my own good this summer) and one dead shock. No mention of any special tools to service the air chamber, didn't talk about the damper assembly since it still worked great. I was able the get the chamber off with a strap wrench pretty easily, it just spun off.

    demo_slug- I bought it because of the rave reviews, how it behaved on single pivot frames, specifically Cannondale Uber V's and the finally the cost (got one for $165). I Went damn near two months without adding air or touching it and it dramatically improved the quality of my ride. I never managed to bottom it out and it stayed plush right till the rot set in and the seals went. Good shock, crappy QC at the factory.
    Alea Jacta Est

  39. #39
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    Warp...

    yer awesome. Thanks for the eye candy

  40. #40
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    Well, I got my Roco back from Marzocchi on Friday afternoon after 3 weeks with out it. It's now nice and shiny again with a new air chamber. According to the paper work, they replaced an o ring seal, the quad seal, used some 2.5wt oil somewhere and replaced the body. I can now resume my work as part of Marzocchi's extended QC department


    Didn't get a chance to ride it yesterday with the remnants of Hurricane Noel smacking the North East around, gonna ride it hard today and dial it back in.

    Alea Jacta Est

  41. #41
    Boyeeee
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    Is it worth packing the area under the bottom-out collar with grease (Rock N Roll Super Slick) to help lube the seals? I sent mine into Marzocchi last week and I'm thinking about doing this when it gets back. Is there any reason not to?

  42. #42
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    Greasing the area around the bottom out seal probably won't do much for the air chamber seals. Most likely you are going to have to remove the bottom out collar and compress the shock to gain some access to the inside of the air chamber and lube it that way. I wouldn't break it down all the way again with out some extra o rings and the appropriate lubrication

    In about a month I'm planning on cracking mine open and checking on the seals to see whats happening on the inside. This will probably become a monthly ritual for me until i gain some confidence in the quality of the lubrication.
    Alea Jacta Est

  43. #43
    "El Whatever"
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    Quote Originally Posted by bbbr
    Greasing the area around the bottom out seal probably won't do much for the air chamber seals. Most likely you are going to have to remove the bottom out collar and compress the shock to gain some access to the inside of the air chamber and lube it that way. I wouldn't break it down all the way again with out some extra o rings and the appropriate lubrication

    In about a month I'm planning on cracking mine open and checking on the seals to see whats happening on the inside. This will probably become a monthly ritual for me until i gain some confidence in the quality of the lubrication.
    Absolutely...

    I talked to Naz in Zoke Canada.

    He made clear that the thing is NOT easy to service. Working on the canister is tricky as it's easy to nick some seals and o-rings.

    They use some moly based grease for o-rings in there. He says he gets very good results with it.

    He said that even to him, it takes him quite some time to service one of those. Then you would need the right tools, the right data (oil wt, IFP depth, IFP pressure) and other relevant info on the procedure.

    I didn't confront him about the claims of it being "user serviceable"... Had no heart for it after the guy being so nice and honest.
    Check my Site

  44. #44
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    The plan is to only break it down to the point where I can see the inside of the can and reassemble the shock with out issues. If i can see some grease on the inside the air chamber, then good enough for me. If not well then I'll Marzocchi again. No desire to completely strip it down again and risk an o ring on reassembly. If i ever have issues with the damper, then it goes back to Marzocchi.

    No way is thing user serviceable with the information available right now. They need to post the information on service and the guts like Cane Creek does before this shock gets full stripped down.
    Alea Jacta Est

  45. #45
    "El Whatever"
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    Quote Originally Posted by bbbr
    The plan is to only break it down to the point where I can see the inside of the can and reassemble the shock with out issues.
    Yeah, I got that... Kinda backwards to what you do in other shocks, where you slide down the sleeve and lube.

    With this one it would be to push in the shaft all the way with the collar loose and lube.
    Check my Site

  46. #46
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    Well, the first ride on the rebuilt Roco kicked arse. My Uber-V is back up and running and I'm loving it. This shock out performs the Fox AVA it replaced in every way, shape and form.

    No issues with the shock on the ride itself, set the pressure at the start and messed around a little bit with the rebound to relocate my settings. Half way into the ride and everything was dial right in with a small bit of grease on the shaft indicating used travel. Life is good again.
    Alea Jacta Est

  47. #47
    "El Whatever"
    Reputation: Warp's Avatar
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    OK... I got brave and took a small flat bladed screwdriver to the damper's air valve cover. It got off easily.

    Then I just took a standard Zoke air pump adapter (like the one used on AM series forks) and deflated it. Unfortunately, when the valve got close to the stem, it released some pressure... so I now know the IFP is 86mm deep, but don't know the pressure but I know I can play with it.

    I then held the seal head with a piece of rubber tube, held the eyelet with a wrench and opened it. It opened quite easily.

    Oil looks like 5wt... some reddish coloured one.

    Here's what's inside the thing. The internal build is nice, really.

    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/8511008@N05/1898210666/" title="Photo Sharing"><img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2355/1898210666_72c5c3556e_b.jpg" width="1024" height="768" alt="Roco Damper01" /></a>

    The thing is completely shimmed... Here's the compression side. See the glide band on the piston?? It's kinda sintered... nice.

    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/8511008@N05/1898206396/" title="Photo Sharing"><img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2129/1898206396_4eeea93caa_b.jpg" width="1024" height="768" alt="Roco Damper02" /></a>

    Here's the rebound... High and low speed compression shims. "Zero bleed" piston... Rebound adjustments do not mess with compression.

    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/8511008@N05/1897369979/" title="Photo Sharing"><img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2230/1897369979_98db1aebc2_b.jpg" width="1024" height="768" alt="Roco Damper03" /></a>

    So far, I still gotta call Zoke USA, but I just need a few seals now and a little bit of instructions.

    The in-line type of damper should be worked in an oil bath while closing it, or using kind of a cup around the seal head area to make some volume to get rid of air bubbles. Manitou already does that for some of their shocks.
    Check my Site

  48. #48
    Nightriding rules SuperModerator
    Reputation: crisillo's Avatar
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    wow... really nice work resident mad scientist/engineer Warp!

  49. #49
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    Warp you are too clever. Thank-you for the photos.

    I would consider using a lower oil weight since you are a flyweight + low leverage bike. The shims are tuned to give you the progressiveness you need for your rockers. I could run it at just over 30% sag and get the same effective travel as the RP23 at just under 25%. I liked the more sag the Roco offered. If you crank the Roco sag up to 25% it's still butter in the little stuff, but it climbs very well with the offset of less effective travel due to compression tune. You know the story mate

  50. #50
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    Those internals are nice!
    Thatīs why everyone likeīs the feeling of roco...

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