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  1. #1
    "El Whatever"
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    Good job! ROCO Air R Disassembly pics

    This is to thank AM for a little box that showed up here at my office today.

    It had a Roco Air in it and what were fresh news from Tas three weeks ago

    I'll be tinkering with it later tonight as it needs to be fixed from somewhere...

    Pics later on... I just couldn't help but posting it from excitement!

    AM... BIG THANK YOU!!!!
    (You're the dog's bollox, mate!)
    Check my Site

  2. #2
    Trophy Husband
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    You're going to love that thing! I love mine.
    Extreme stationary biker.

  3. #3
    No, that's not phonetic
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    TST or unbuttered?
    My video techniques can be found in this thread.

  4. #4
    "El Whatever"
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    Quote Originally Posted by tscheezy
    TST or unbuttered?
    Normal R, nothing fancy... I'll put up some pics later or tomorrow...
    Check my Site

  5. #5
    thats right living legend
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    Well WTF is AM running?

    I just recieved a six page PM from him, and he didn't say a thing.

  6. #6
    "El Whatever"
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    Well here are some pics. It's kinda old news nowadays as there is Roco Air R no more for 2008... but hey, it's its first day with me!!

    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/8511008@N05/1648772432/" title="Photo Sharing"><img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2228/1648772432_51c6fa3425_b.jpg" width="1024" height="768" alt="Roco_04" /></a>

    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/8511008@N05/1647916403/" title="Photo Sharing"><img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2175/1647916403_4d6d67131a_b.jpg" width="1024" height="768" alt="Roco_08" /></a>

    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/8511008@N05/1648778452/" title="Photo Sharing"><img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2410/1648778452_da4df9ca8d_b.jpg" width="1024" height="768" alt="Roco_03" /></a>

    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/8511008@N05/1648796380/" title="Photo Sharing"><img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2057/1648796380_0f1a9d3b0f_b.jpg" width="1024" height="768" alt="Roco_02" /></a>

    Here's the bottom out adjust thingy...

    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/8511008@N05/1648764666/" title="Photo Sharing"><img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2068/1648764666_553b8d958a_b.jpg" width="1024" height="768" alt="Roco_05" /></a>

    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/8511008@N05/1647949657/" title="Photo Sharing"><img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2380/1647949657_bc86d1275c_b.jpg" width="1024" height="768" alt="Roco_06" /></a>

    From it came a seal that isn't looking good... Bad Zoke. This shock has not many miles on it...

    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/8511008@N05/1647943881/" title="Photo Sharing"><img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2075/1647943881_415c274808_b.jpg" width="1024" height="768" alt="Roco_07" /></a>

    Here's the leak that made AM to send the shock to Mexico for proper disposal...

    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/8511008@N05/1647910015/" title="Photo Sharing"><img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2082/1647910015_f924688855_b.jpg" width="1024" height="768" alt="Roco_09" /></a>

    I'll write Zoke to see if they can send me the rebuild kit (they should) and instructions for rebuilding.

    I'll take it tomorrow to a shop where they have a bench vise, 'cos I couldn't open the thing with the old tube trick to access the damaged seal.
    Check my Site

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackagness
    Well WTF is AM running?

    I just recieved a six page PM from him, and he didn't say a thing.
    Another RP23 and I'm spanking it hard. Perhaps too hard

    ....next shock please !~!

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp
    Well here are some pics. It's kinda old news nowadays as there is Roco Air R no more for 2008... but hey, it's its first day with me!!
    ...
    found the macro setting on the cammie did you ?~?

  9. #9
    Nightriding rules SuperModerator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp
    Well here are some pics. It's kinda old news nowadays as there is Roco Air R no more for 2008... but hey, it's its first day with me!!
    Awesome, Warp!

    and very well done, AM!

    nice... so after the seal fix, it will be a BomberBlade

  10. #10
    thats right living legend
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    Quote Originally Posted by All Mountain
    Another RP23 and I'm spanking it hard. Perhaps too hard

    ....next shock please !~!

    Is it the old Rp23 or an 08? Doesn't the 08 have some sort of BO adjust, along with the high volume air can? It's like you've been working for Fox, cause that sounds like something right down your ally.

    Either way if your about to destroy "another" air shock don't you think it's time to go back to a man's shock?... ie coil.

  11. #11
    "El Whatever"
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    Quote Originally Posted by All Mountain
    found the macro setting on the cammie did you ?~?
    We have to up it to standards of "other boards"...

    (I didn't posted some macros that are ridiculous )

    BTW... the shock's shaft is 32mm just like the forks. Actually, the wiper reminded me some of Enduroforkseals... I'm not saying they're the same, though.
    Check my Site

  12. #12
    Paste eater
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp
    We have to up it to standards of "other boards"...
    ya, for a minute, I thought I might be in the Turner Forum. On a separate matter, 'Zoke got rid of the Roco R for 2008?

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jwind
    ya, for a minute, I thought I might be in the Turner Forum. On a separate matter, 'Zoke got rid of the Roco R for 2008?
    It got enhanced with a 3 position switch (low speed compression).

  14. #14
    Nightriding rules SuperModerator
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    Quote Originally Posted by All Mountain
    It got enhanced with a 3 position switch (low speed compression).
    ditto

    Roco Air 3PL


  15. #15
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    Looks light.

  16. #16
    "El Whatever"
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    Ok... this was wrenching day here.

    The VDub has new distributor, spark plugs, cables, fresh oil and a new hydraulic fluid reservoir for the power steering.

    I got to work a bit on the Roco too...

    Good news, I could open it.
    Bad news, I'll probably won't get to apply for Warranty.

    I almost broke my wrists trying to open the air canister turning it counterclockwise, like any shock.

    Wrong... It was to the other side.

    One of the "particularities" of the design is that for any air sleeve chamber work, you have to fully service the thing.

    How did I discover that?? The canister goes off by turning clockwise and it has to be extracted to the upper eyelet side. Thing is, the canister won't go away unless you remove the air valve stem and the rebound adjuster assembly... Which I did.

    Now... When I tried to put everything together, obviously the rebound assy was going nowhere. I nicked the shaft on the rebound needle and there's some detent balls under the rebound adjuster that like to fly away.

    I said to myself... "No biggie, I'll open the damper... it has a cover over what looks a valve stem"... Well, Marzocchi in their infinite wisdom and on behalf of user serviceability made this cover to have a PENTAGON drive.

    As at last... I dunno what they use for lubrication, but to me it looks like pure crap. There are damaged seals everywhere and while I admit I was no gentle opening it, I haven't been so with the "crappy" 5th Air or the Float and they have had no problems.

    Here's the guts of the Roco...

    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/8511008@N05/1662710813/" title="Photo Sharing"><img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2264/1662710813_dc790cd263_b.jpg" width="1024" height="768" alt="Roco_17" /></a>


    This was the state of the seals...

    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/8511008@N05/1663604990/" title="Photo Sharing"><img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2131/1663604990_bf634a2cc1_b.jpg" width="1024" height="768" alt="Roco_10" /></a>

    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/8511008@N05/1662730509/" title="Photo Sharing"><img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2335/1662730509_64773866a2_b.jpg" width="1024" height="768" alt="Roco_14" /></a>

    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/8511008@N05/1663593268/" title="Photo Sharing"><img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2325/1663593268_260ef1b098_b.jpg" width="1024" height="768" alt="Roco_11" /></a>

    The head of the shock... Notice the design. Canister goes off counterclockwise.

    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/8511008@N05/1662720759/" title="Photo Sharing"><img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2106/1662720759_d03ebdca3a_b.jpg" width="1024" height="768" alt="Roco_15" /></a>

    The high volume air sleeve...

    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/8511008@N05/1662715827/" title="Photo Sharing"><img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2303/1662715827_a196bbf052_b.jpg" width="1024" height="768" alt="Roco_16" /></a>

    AM... it looks like you bottomed the shock a few times...
    (However, the bottom out o-ring should not be this bad)

    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/8511008@N05/1663582234/" title="Photo Sharing"><img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2075/1663582234_da7fe72e89_b.jpg" width="1024" height="768" alt="Roco_12" /></a>

    The way the bottom out adjustment works if a work of genius... You open the bottom part of the air sleeve and it simply "fills" a given space at atmospheric pressure... You close it and you have a negative spring and a vacuum that will counteract the positive spring. Clever.

    I'll make my best to make this one work out, but it'll take time... The wisest thing to do was to send the shock right away to Zoke... But I'm dumb and curious like a cat. I needed to see for myself.
    Check my Site

  17. #17
    Ti is addictive
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    Geez Warp, that's a great autopsy..........What gives with Zocci lately and there Shiate seals????? Were thier Warranty and service departments getting lonely as no one ever had problems pre06. Those were the good ole days as anyone or any shop could fix the fork on site in a day or 2 versus the crap they've been shipping lately. Kinda reminds me of the ole Manipoo/Judy days.
    "Can I put a Totem on a FTM?".....Originally Posted by All Mountain

  18. #18
    Trophy Husband
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp
    ...The wisest thing to do was to send the shock right away to Zoke... But I'm dumb and curious like a cat. I needed to see for myself.
    PUSH?
    Extreme stationary biker.

  19. #19
    thats right living legend
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    Now we know why those things were going for so cheap.

    Cause they are cheap.

  20. #20
    "El Whatever"
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    Quote Originally Posted by geolover
    PUSH?
    They work only on the Coil version, AFAIK.

    Geo... send yours to service. Don't try to fix it yourself unless you make sure you have all tools and spares.
    Check my Site

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp
    ...
    AM... it looks like you bottomed the shock a few times...
    ...
    BUSTED !~!~!~! sorry mate

  22. #22
    Nightriding rules SuperModerator
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    wow...very interesting stuff Warp!

    Hope you get the seals and a way around the weird tool ...call Marzocchi USA using skype and tell us what they say

  23. #23
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    great stuff Warp,

    always bringing us good pics and knowledge!!!

    about the pentagon drive, i donīt know why they do that... just to piss everyone off???
    i found on the net that it is used on water faucets, or water mains, but i know nothing more...
    Could you post a pic of it?

    i have the same problem with a radium shock... i already have a valve to use on the platform damping side, but i donīt know how to open the damn thing...

    anyway, good luck bringing the roco back to life!
    are you sending it to marz or buying the seals?

    Marcolino

  24. #24
    "El Whatever"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcolino
    Could you post a pic of it?

    anyway, good luck bringing the roco back to life!
    are you sending it to marz or buying the seals?

    Marcolino
    Obrigado!

    Here's the pentagon drive. I've worked in the machine shop and gas turbine fields and I had never seen one. I'm not saying they don't exist, but it's not a common tool.

    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/8511008@N05/1675132003/" title="Photo Sharing"><img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2205/1675132003_9501356b64_b.jpg" width="1024" height="768" alt="Roco_" /></a>

    I think I'll buy the parts and rebuild it myself... sending it over there and back will not be cheap or fast anyways. That is if Marzocchi doesn't have any more surprises inside and no more special tool are required.
    Check my Site

  25. #25
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    hum...thatīs the devils work, ehehe.

    the pentagon bolt on the radium is the oposite, the roco is like a hex, but the radium bolt is more like a nut. roco is recesed while on the radium, the recesed part is the outside of the hex...

    strange things we see these days... eheheh.

    keep up the good work!

    abrazo,

    Marcolino

  26. #26
    Boyeeee
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    This explains why my shock suddenly stopped holding air last week. I guess it needs new seals.

    Unfortunately, the bike is at my house in Rancho Bernardo and might be going up in flames soon....

  27. #27
    Nightriding rules SuperModerator
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    Quote Originally Posted by BCBlur
    This explains why my shock suddenly stopped holding air last week. I guess it needs new seals.

    Unfortunately, the bike is at my house in Rancho Bernardo and might be going up in flames soon....
    bummer about the fire... I hope your house is spared...

  28. #28
    Boyeeee
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    Thanks.

    I took pictures of my bikes. We'll see how the insurance company deals.

  29. #29
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    Hey, that Roco looks like mine. Just in better shape...

    All of my seals were cooked, "rubble" ( probably a o-ring) in the end of the air chamber and massive corrosion on the nickel air chamber. It doesn't look like Marzocchi bothered to grease it when they put it together. I couldn't find any evidence of grease any where, not even under the o-rings. Not too good for a two month old shock.


    The inside of my air chamber, bone dry and full of o-rings bits




    The corrosion on the air chamber. This stuff flakes off when you touch it, doesn't give me a warm fuzzy

    Alea Jacta Est

  30. #30
    "El Whatever"
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    Quote Originally Posted by bbbr
    Hey, that Roco looks like mine. Just in better shape...

    All of my seals were cooked, "rubble" ( probably a o-ring) in the end of the air chamber and massive corrosion on the nickel air chamber. It doesn't look like Marzocchi bothered to grease it when they put it together. I couldn't find any evidence of grease any where, not even under the o-rings. Not too good for a two month old shock.
    Did they warranty it?

    Or did they give any procedure to rebuild it?
    Big Zoke's marketing says it's "end user serviceable"...
    Check my Site

  31. #31
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    Yep, they warranted it. Right now it's in California being worked on, gonna call tomorrow and find out when I'll get it back.

    Marzocchi originally offered to send out a seal kit to save me some down time but i when mentioned the corrosion they wanted it back. My cousin's Roco is also leaking but hasn't shown any tenancies toward rotting, yet.
    Alea Jacta Est

  32. #32
    "El Whatever"
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    Quote Originally Posted by bbbr
    Yep, they warranted it. Right now it's in California being worked on, gonna call tomorrow and find out when I'll get it back.

    Marzocchi originally offered to send out a seal kit to save me some down time but i when mentioned the corrosion they wanted it back. My cousin's Roco is also leaking but hasn't shown any tenancies toward rotting, yet.
    This one seems to be ok... but the air sleeve not coming out apart like yours may mean it's corroded.

    I'll send a few pics to Zoke and see what they say.

    Did they mention any pricing on seal kit? Special tools?

    Oh, I'm maybe asking too much, but who did you deal with at Zoke?... PM if you don't feel like posting here.

    Thanks, Bro!!
    Check my Site

  33. #33
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    Get Zoke to send you the seal kit under warranty dood. DIY is better than Zoke.

  34. #34
    the 36 year old grom
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    looks like major friction problems...... why do you guys swarm to buy this junk???


    P.S. I'm selling kicks to the balls for $30. Just PM me if interested.

  35. #35
    Trophy Husband
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    Quote Originally Posted by demo_slug
    ...... why do you guys swarm to buy this junk???
    I like to do three things in my life:

    1) Buy obsolete bicycle frames
    2) Buy expensive beer
    3) "Swarm" to buy junk
    Extreme stationary biker.

  36. #36
    the 36 year old grom
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    Quote Originally Posted by geolover
    I like to do three things in my life:

    1) Buy obsolete bicycle frames
    2) Buy expensive beer
    3) "Swarm" to buy junk
    I like expensive beer too. but I also like cheap beer.

  37. #37
    Trophy Husband
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    Quote Originally Posted by demo_slug
    I like expensive beer too. but I also like cheap beer.
    Of course, me too (the Hamms Bear is my avatar). Beer ist rad.

    Same with shocks. I like expensive shocks, but I also like cheap shocks.
    Extreme stationary biker.

  38. #38
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    Warp-

    Sadly i spaced on writing the guys name down when i talked to Marzocchi USA. From what i heard in the background it sounded like he was in a shop when i called (late in the afternoon).

    The seal kit was going to be sent to me free since I'm still under warranty and this was an obvious screw up. Two months of ownership, under 40 hrs of use (ended up working far too much for my own good this summer) and one dead shock. No mention of any special tools to service the air chamber, didn't talk about the damper assembly since it still worked great. I was able the get the chamber off with a strap wrench pretty easily, it just spun off.

    demo_slug- I bought it because of the rave reviews, how it behaved on single pivot frames, specifically Cannondale Uber V's and the finally the cost (got one for $165). I Went damn near two months without adding air or touching it and it dramatically improved the quality of my ride. I never managed to bottom it out and it stayed plush right till the rot set in and the seals went. Good shock, crappy QC at the factory.
    Alea Jacta Est

  39. #39
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    Warp...

    yer awesome. Thanks for the eye candy

  40. #40
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    Well, I got my Roco back from Marzocchi on Friday afternoon after 3 weeks with out it. It's now nice and shiny again with a new air chamber. According to the paper work, they replaced an o ring seal, the quad seal, used some 2.5wt oil somewhere and replaced the body. I can now resume my work as part of Marzocchi's extended QC department


    Didn't get a chance to ride it yesterday with the remnants of Hurricane Noel smacking the North East around, gonna ride it hard today and dial it back in.

    Alea Jacta Est

  41. #41
    Boyeeee
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    Is it worth packing the area under the bottom-out collar with grease (Rock N Roll Super Slick) to help lube the seals? I sent mine into Marzocchi last week and I'm thinking about doing this when it gets back. Is there any reason not to?

  42. #42
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    Greasing the area around the bottom out seal probably won't do much for the air chamber seals. Most likely you are going to have to remove the bottom out collar and compress the shock to gain some access to the inside of the air chamber and lube it that way. I wouldn't break it down all the way again with out some extra o rings and the appropriate lubrication

    In about a month I'm planning on cracking mine open and checking on the seals to see whats happening on the inside. This will probably become a monthly ritual for me until i gain some confidence in the quality of the lubrication.
    Alea Jacta Est

  43. #43
    "El Whatever"
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    Quote Originally Posted by bbbr
    Greasing the area around the bottom out seal probably won't do much for the air chamber seals. Most likely you are going to have to remove the bottom out collar and compress the shock to gain some access to the inside of the air chamber and lube it that way. I wouldn't break it down all the way again with out some extra o rings and the appropriate lubrication

    In about a month I'm planning on cracking mine open and checking on the seals to see whats happening on the inside. This will probably become a monthly ritual for me until i gain some confidence in the quality of the lubrication.
    Absolutely...

    I talked to Naz in Zoke Canada.

    He made clear that the thing is NOT easy to service. Working on the canister is tricky as it's easy to nick some seals and o-rings.

    They use some moly based grease for o-rings in there. He says he gets very good results with it.

    He said that even to him, it takes him quite some time to service one of those. Then you would need the right tools, the right data (oil wt, IFP depth, IFP pressure) and other relevant info on the procedure.

    I didn't confront him about the claims of it being "user serviceable"... Had no heart for it after the guy being so nice and honest.
    Check my Site

  44. #44
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    The plan is to only break it down to the point where I can see the inside of the can and reassemble the shock with out issues. If i can see some grease on the inside the air chamber, then good enough for me. If not well then I'll Marzocchi again. No desire to completely strip it down again and risk an o ring on reassembly. If i ever have issues with the damper, then it goes back to Marzocchi.

    No way is thing user serviceable with the information available right now. They need to post the information on service and the guts like Cane Creek does before this shock gets full stripped down.
    Alea Jacta Est

  45. #45
    "El Whatever"
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    Quote Originally Posted by bbbr
    The plan is to only break it down to the point where I can see the inside of the can and reassemble the shock with out issues.
    Yeah, I got that... Kinda backwards to what you do in other shocks, where you slide down the sleeve and lube.

    With this one it would be to push in the shaft all the way with the collar loose and lube.
    Check my Site

  46. #46
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    Well, the first ride on the rebuilt Roco kicked arse. My Uber-V is back up and running and I'm loving it. This shock out performs the Fox AVA it replaced in every way, shape and form.

    No issues with the shock on the ride itself, set the pressure at the start and messed around a little bit with the rebound to relocate my settings. Half way into the ride and everything was dial right in with a small bit of grease on the shaft indicating used travel. Life is good again.
    Alea Jacta Est

  47. #47
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    OK... I got brave and took a small flat bladed screwdriver to the damper's air valve cover. It got off easily.

    Then I just took a standard Zoke air pump adapter (like the one used on AM series forks) and deflated it. Unfortunately, when the valve got close to the stem, it released some pressure... so I now know the IFP is 86mm deep, but don't know the pressure but I know I can play with it.

    I then held the seal head with a piece of rubber tube, held the eyelet with a wrench and opened it. It opened quite easily.

    Oil looks like 5wt... some reddish coloured one.

    Here's what's inside the thing. The internal build is nice, really.

    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/8511008@N05/1898210666/" title="Photo Sharing"><img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2355/1898210666_72c5c3556e_b.jpg" width="1024" height="768" alt="Roco Damper01" /></a>

    The thing is completely shimmed... Here's the compression side. See the glide band on the piston?? It's kinda sintered... nice.

    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/8511008@N05/1898206396/" title="Photo Sharing"><img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2129/1898206396_4eeea93caa_b.jpg" width="1024" height="768" alt="Roco Damper02" /></a>

    Here's the rebound... High and low speed compression shims. "Zero bleed" piston... Rebound adjustments do not mess with compression.

    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/8511008@N05/1897369979/" title="Photo Sharing"><img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2230/1897369979_98db1aebc2_b.jpg" width="1024" height="768" alt="Roco Damper03" /></a>

    So far, I still gotta call Zoke USA, but I just need a few seals now and a little bit of instructions.

    The in-line type of damper should be worked in an oil bath while closing it, or using kind of a cup around the seal head area to make some volume to get rid of air bubbles. Manitou already does that for some of their shocks.
    Check my Site

  48. #48
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    wow... really nice work resident mad scientist/engineer Warp!

  49. #49
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    Warp you are too clever. Thank-you for the photos.

    I would consider using a lower oil weight since you are a flyweight + low leverage bike. The shims are tuned to give you the progressiveness you need for your rockers. I could run it at just over 30% sag and get the same effective travel as the RP23 at just under 25%. I liked the more sag the Roco offered. If you crank the Roco sag up to 25% it's still butter in the little stuff, but it climbs very well with the offset of less effective travel due to compression tune. You know the story mate

  50. #50
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    Those internals are nice!
    Thatīs why everyone likeīs the feeling of roco...

  51. #51
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    According to the paperwork i got back with mine, the oil is 2.5wt. No mention of how much or the manufacturer.
    Alea Jacta Est

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by bbbr
    According to the paperwork i got back with mine, the oil is 2.5wt. No mention of how much or the manufacturer.
    How much? As much as needed... this amount is set from the IFP depth.

    Manufacturer?? Seems like a no relevant data, but without knowing the manufacturer, you can't compare it to other oils.

    That said, maybe Torco oil should be fine.

    I don't know where I could get 2.5wt here... not common.

    At any rate, if I can't get the 2.5wt or can't get the feel I want, now I have access to the damper, it's a matter of removing shims
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  53. #53
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    Wow Warp! How do you get time to tinker around with those toys! Are you going to run it on the SB?
    "Hell, the Titus Moderator can't pass a cantina without gettin' the shakes"

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by elmadaleno
    Wow Warp! How do you get time to tinker around with those toys! Are you going to run it on the SB?
    Night shift...

    Yeah, that baby is going on the Blade...
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  55. #55
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    Got mine back today and it looks good. The turnaround was 2 weeks and all the work was covered under warranty.

    I pulled the bottom-out collar off to set it up and noticed that everything that I could see looked greased (I think it was dry before).

    Hopefully I can get a ride in on Wednesday.

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by BCBlur
    Got mine back today and it looks good. The turnaround was 2 weeks and all the work was covered under warranty.

    I pulled the bottom-out collar off to set it up and noticed that everything that I could see looked greased (I think it was dry before).

    Hopefully I can get a ride in on Wednesday.
    Double Zoke Stoke for you

    glad you got RC2 cart sorted as well... you owe us a nice clear photo of that 4X scooter please

  57. #57
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    Just got off the phone with Zoke.

    1.- Warranty - Since shock was bought in May, it's not under warranty. Whatever. I'll not go deeper into that.

    2.- They can provide the parts - They're working on a quote. I just sent them the details of the three seals I need.

    3.- Instructions - "There are no instructions, you either know or don't". They said I can show up at their place and learn how to do it, send the shock in, but I will not get the details on how to rebuild it. Another "whatever". Something I'm not willing to go deeper into.

    At any rate, I have the IFP depth as I took care when rebuilding it, pressure should be in the 150-300 PSI range and I can play now with oil wt's to suit my needs.

    I just want the darn seals.
    Check my Site

  58. #58
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    I went a little step further and took the IFP out.

    It seems like the depth insertion it had was almost to the bottom. From those 86mm I measured originally, I tried to sink the IFP all the way down and it would not go further.

    The IFP puck is 7.5mm thick. That makes 93.5mm which is the total damper chamber depth. BUt that reminds me of the stupid small SPV chamber on the 5th Air.

    Anyway... I'll try to get the info somehow.

    Here's the unsolicited pics....

    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/8511008@N05/2031970531/" title="Roco IFP06 by Warpo, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2252/2031970531_c9e528b38b_b.jpg" width="1024" height="768" alt="Roco IFP06" /></a>

    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/8511008@N05/2032771508/" title="Roco IFP02 by Warpo, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2229/2032771508_241fbeea09_b.jpg" width="1024" height="768" alt="Roco IFP02" /></a>

    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/8511008@N05/2031979935/" title="Roco IFP04 by Warpo, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2106/2031979935_6f2cbd8d29_b.jpg" width="1024" height="768" alt="Roco IFP04" /></a>

    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/8511008@N05/2031988507/" title="Roco IFP03 by Warpo, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2181/2031988507_3e97a99d98_b.jpg" width="1024" height="768" alt="Roco IFP03" /></a>

    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/8511008@N05/2032788726/" title="Roco IFP01 by Warpo, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2217/2032788726_b2da72b57a_b.jpg" width="1024" height="768" alt="Roco IFP01" /></a>
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  59. #59
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    http://www.windwave.co.uk/documents/...earshocks.html

    sorry warp your shock aint listed but it might help others.

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by konut
    http://www.windwave.co.uk/documents/...earshocks.html

    sorry warp your shock aint listed but it might help others.
    Thanks!!

    The fact my shock not being there is part of the intention of the post. Help other guys to get a hold on "how to" on this shock and "unveil" what's inside the thing.
    Check my Site

  61. #61
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    ahhh warp,

    always serving nice pics!!!!

    hum what is that adapter that is attached to the air pump? is it a marzocchi adapter?

    looks interesting...

    underneath it is there a valve or is there only one of those pesky menbranes?
    how are you going to set the pressure after assembly?

    marcolino

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcolino
    hum what is that adapter that is attached to the air pump? is it a marzocchi adapter?
    Yessir... a standard Zoke Air Valve adapter. It comes with Doppio Air equipped and other forks.

    Can be bought separately but it costs like if it was made out of gold.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcolino
    underneath it is there a valve or is there only one of those pesky menbranes?
    No membrane.

    The valve is a normal short body schrader core. All shocks should come equipped like this from factory.

    I've been reading some and the reason your Metel now feels plusher is that damping is a function (amongst a paraphernalia of parameters) IFP pressure. The more IF pressure, the more damping you produce.... either compression or rebound.

    You can go as high as your seals can take... or as low as there is not cavitation. If you let oil to cavitate, you'll destroy the thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcolino
    how are you going to set the pressure after assembly?
    marcolino
    With the valve you see in there and a standard shock pump.

    This shock is the shizzle for those of us, homespun armchair shock tuners.
    Check my Site

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp
    Yessir... a standard Zoke Air Valve adapter. It comes with Doppio Air equipped and other forks.
    hum.. i wonder if the thinner threads are similar to the manitou air valves...
    i donīt seem to be able to find any...

    Quote Originally Posted by Warp
    No membrane.

    The valve is a normal short body schrader core. All shocks should come equipped like this from factory.

    I've been reading some and the reason your Metel now feels plusher is that damping is a function (amongst a paraphernalia of parameters) IFP pressure. The more IF pressure, the more damping you produce.... either compression or rebound.

    You can go as high as your seals can take... or as low as there is not cavitation. If you let oil to cavitate, you'll destroy the thing.
    good, thatīs what i thought... when i find the manitou valves iīll fine tune it!


    Quote Originally Posted by Warp
    This shock is the shizzle for those of us, homespun armchair shock tuners.
    eheh, itīs a cool one to tune!

    good luck in the assembly process,

    Marcolino

    ps-the ifp depth is a bit strange! the pressure must reaaaallllly go up when youīll fill it up...

  64. #64
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    Well.. it's on the bike. Tight fit, but fits. The rebound adjuster barely clears.

    I just rebuilt the thing. It's not easy and I think I can do a better job bleeding the damper.
    I hadn't noticed it before, but the seal head has a groove that's deeper than the bleed holes provided to allow air and oil to go out of the damper so some air can still get trapped. So, maybe a small bucket of oil or something may be needed along with a nice amount of oil... just as Marzocchi claims.

    I just wanted to put the thing together to see how it goes. It is holding air. The main seal was fine, but the quad seal on the bottom out ring is toast and definitively it seems not to hold air and the shock tops out a bit harsh.

    I finally set the IFP in the most scientific of manners... measured the difference between the max extension of shaft and deepest of IFP and set it in the middle of those two measurements. That's 79mm. Marzocchi recommends 64mm, but the shaft goes as deep as 72mm, so the number given by Zoke means that the damper head would hit the IFP and actually compress it, but I think that's a NO-NO... Not to mention that would create a vacuum on the back of the piston (shaft side).

    I'm using Motul Expert 5wt (Light, 17.9cSt@40°C, just a couple cSt thicker than the thing Zoke uses at their shop). Same thing for lubing the canister.

    At any rate, it seems to be hard to bottom out.

    <img src="http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/571/roco05fi5.jpg" alt="Image Hosted by ImageShack.us"/><br/>By <a target="_new" href="http://profile.imageshack.us/user/warp2003">warp2003</a>, shot with <a target="_new" href="http://profile.imageshack.us/camerabuy.php?model=DSC-W30&make=SONY">DSC-W30</a> at 2008-01-19

    <img src="http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/5819/roco01iz3.jpg" alt="Image Hosted by ImageShack.us"/><br/>By <a target="_new" href="http://profile.imageshack.us/user/warp2003">warp2003</a>, shot with <a target="_new" href="http://profile.imageshack.us/camerabuy.php?model=DSC-W30&make=SONY">DSC-W30</a> at 2008-01-19

    <img src="http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/9467/roco02gy2.jpg" alt="Image Hosted by ImageShack.us"/><br/>By <a target="_new" href="http://profile.imageshack.us/user/warp2003">warp2003</a>, shot with <a target="_new" href="http://profile.imageshack.us/camerabuy.php?model=DSC-W30&make=SONY">DSC-W30</a> at 2008-01-19

    <img src="http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/9770/roco03yk1.jpg" alt="Image Hosted by ImageShack.us"/><br/>By <a target="_new" href="http://profile.imageshack.us/user/warp2003">warp2003</a>, shot with <a target="_new" href="http://profile.imageshack.us/camerabuy.php?model=DSC-W30&make=SONY">DSC-W30</a> at 2008-01-19

    <img src="http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/3306/roco04wb6.jpg" alt="Image Hosted by ImageShack.us"/><br/>By <a target="_new" href="http://profile.imageshack.us/user/warp2003">warp2003</a>, shot with <a target="_new" href="http://profile.imageshack.us/camerabuy.php?model=DSC-W30&make=SONY">DSC-W30</a> at 2008-01-19

    First ride impressions...

    This thing rocks, but needs some more work. It pedaled both plush and firm. Not much bob but only at high cadences (high as in pedaling a gear you shouldn't).

    It felt harsh at high speeds and I couldn't get more than 35mm's out of 50mm of travel... mind you that I didn't tried to bottom it out.

    I'm amazed at how plush yet firm it felt. I still need to do some more work on it, but so far I like it.

    <img src="http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/3940/dsc064541fn7.jpg" alt="Image Hosted by ImageShack.us"/><br/>By <a target="_new" href="http://profile.imageshack.us/user/warp2003">warp2003</a>, shot with <a target="_new" href="http://profile.imageshack.us/camerabuy.php?model=DSC-W30&make=SONY">DSC-W30</a> at 2008-01-20

    <img src="http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/8949/dsc064531yy5.jpg" alt="Image Hosted by ImageShack.us"/><br/>By <a target="_new" href="http://profile.imageshack.us/user/warp2003">warp2003</a>, shot with <a target="_new" href="http://profile.imageshack.us/camerabuy.php?model=DSC-W30&make=SONY">DSC-W30</a> at 2008-01-20

    <img src="http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/4061/dsc064521zu0.jpg" alt="Image Hosted by ImageShack.us"/><br/>By <a target="_new" href="http://profile.imageshack.us/user/warp2003">warp2003</a>, shot with <a target="_new" href="http://profile.imageshack.us/camerabuy.php?model=DSC-W30&make=SONY">DSC-W30</a> at 2008-01-20

    Rebuilt instructions updated, see post #109

    Don't open the damper if you don't need to. The bleeding is tricky.

    If you have a leak, do the procedure posted above, but check the main seal (the one between the turquoise backing rings) and verify it's not twisted. If it is, put it back into place and follow the rest of the procedure.

    More as I ride it more and do a better work rebuilding it with the new seals and better bleeding. Seals should be due next week, but the bike is going into Annual Overhaul... so it will take a while.
    Last edited by Warp; 02-06-2008 at 02:46 PM.
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  65. #65
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    hi warp , do you have ... a chart of progression change rate for piggy back piston of the roco wc ..., its hard to explain in english , please send answer on mtb.forum.it ... do you find .... roco post by lampo 13 .
    Thank you .
    where do you find ... the minkia stick on your titus ? May be Italian.

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikebiker
    hi warp , do you have ... a chart of progression change rate for piggy back piston of the roco wc ..., its hard to explain in english , please send answer on mtb.forum.it ... do you find .... roco post by lampo 13 .
    Thank you .
    where do you find ... the minkia stick on your titus ? May be Italian.
    Ciao, Mike!!

    No, I don't have it. I think I know what you want... a chart or data of how deep the piston in the piggy back should be.

    Let me see if I find something.

    Yeah, the minkjia sticker is courtesy of Pro-M (Milano??) in Italy... Minkjia Daddy!!!!

    I work for an Italian/Argentinean company... so, I can read and understand a bit of Italian, but can't speak or write it for the life of me.

    Ciao!
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  67. #67
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    Excellent information!

    Wish I had this when mine did the same thing in august. Marz would not tell me yes or no on warranty without sending it in so I just did it myself. I just used a regular o-ring from the hardware store to replace the twisted and crumbling quad-ring. I need to get the right parts but so far it has been working fine.

    How did you get the 64mm IFP depth recommendation?

    You say you doubt it is correct but I think, based on the measurements you took, it could be right. Maybe you considered this but, if the shaft can reach 72mm, the oil displaced in the chamber by the shaft as it does so should push the IFP the additional 8mm before the piston hits it. It is also a good possibility that it moves a bit as the seal head is installed.

    I think with these instructions, I have enough guts to open up the damper and replace the old bubbly oil instead of caving in and sending it to the factory.

    Thanks for posting this since Marzocchi doesn't want to help us out.

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by taiter
    Excellent information!

    Wish I had this when mine did the same thing in august. Marz would not tell me yes or no on warranty without sending it in so I just did it myself. I just used a regular o-ring from the hardware store to replace the twisted and crumbling quad-ring. I need to get the right parts but so far it has been working fine.
    Please share the size of the o-ring. Amazingly, the drawing Marozzchi has (see windwave.co.uk) for identifying parts is so lame that is confusing.

    Mike at Marzocchi USA and I choose what looked from the drawing the right parts. I tried to order the main seal, the bottom out chamber seal, the glide ring on the main piston and the turquoise back-up ring.

    The part numbers provided by Mike got me the turquoise back-up ring, no main seal (fortunately mine is fine), the bottom out seal, the glide ring and what looks like a PAR piston or some piece that does not belong to the Roco shock.

    Quote Originally Posted by taiter
    How did you get the 64mm IFP depth recommendation?
    I called Zoke, asked if warranty was on (answer was no), told them I had the thing apart and needed instructions. The first time I called, I got someone in a bad mood and they told me "you either know how to service or don't"

    Next time Mike was very nice and gave me all the info I needed.
    Shait happens and I lost the info. Called Zoke USA but as they weren't available, I called Naz at Zoke Canada and he gave me the info.

    Quote Originally Posted by taiter
    You say you doubt it is correct but I think, based on the measurements you took, it could be right. Maybe you considered this but, if the shaft can reach 72mm, the oil displaced in the chamber by the shaft as it does so should push the IFP the additional 8mm before the piston hits it. It is also a good possibility that it moves a bit as the seal head is installed.
    I still don't think so.

    The damper seal head has some holes to allow oil to escape as you're putting it back. Also, the IFP chamber is pressurized (at atm pressure) and I don't think the IFP would move that much installing the seal head.

    Based on that, if you set the IFP to 64mm you'll either hit the IFP piston OR you could get a lot of vacuum behind the piston past the 64mm of shaft displacement.

    Quote Originally Posted by taiter
    I think with these instructions, I have enough guts to open up the damper and replace the old bubbly oil instead of caving in and sending it to the factory.

    Thanks for posting this since Marzocchi doesn't want to help us out.
    Nothing to thank for...
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  69. #69
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    Sorry, I don't remember for sure what size o-ring. I was just using the original and measurements from the shock to find something to work until I could get the real parts.

    I did also find quad-rings I thought were correct at mcmaster.com but I found the o-rings at the store so I didn't order any.

    I have to open up the shock anyway so I will figure it out again.

    Can you say how much did Marzocchi charged for the parts?


    So, you really don't think the shaft volume is enough to move the IFP 8mm? Also, there has to be at least 2mm left to move the seal head once the o-ring seats and no more oil can get out. That will move the IFP

    I would expect a larger air volume to help keep the damping rate more linear and reduce the high speed harshness you noticed. I would for sure set it to start at the 72mm reach of the shaft since it can't possibly hit from there.

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by taiter
    Sorry, I don't remember for sure what size o-ring. I was just using the original and measurements from the shock to find something to work until I could get the real parts.

    I did also find quad-rings I thought were correct at mcmaster.com but I found the o-rings at the store so I didn't order any.

    I have to open up the shock anyway so I will figure it out again.

    Can you say how much did Marzocchi charged for the parts?

    Yeah, no biggie... it was like 34 bucks, but as I mentioned there was a part that did not belong there.

    Quote Originally Posted by taiter
    So, you really don't think the shaft volume is enough to move the IFP 8mm? Also, there has to be at least 2mm left to move the seal head once the o-ring seats and no more oil can get out. That will move the IFP
    The 2-3mm you mention sounds correct as for assembly... see below.


    Quote Originally Posted by taiter
    I would expect a larger air volume to help keep the damping rate more linear and reduce the high speed harshness you noticed. I would for sure set it to start at the 72mm reach of the shaft since it can't possibly hit from there.
    Yeah... I'll rebuild it and try something like 74mm (now I'm at 79mm). At any rate, 64mm doesn't sound good... at full bottom, you'll have space of a maximum of 8mm (could be less but not much less) behind the travel direction of the piston, you'd have a dead damping stroke at rebound, I think.

    Maybe someone who really knows about this stuff could chime in.

    Oddly, BCBlur got his Roco back from Marzocchi and has similar symptoms. He's not using more than 35mm of shock travel either.

    I can't stress enough how important is to lube the canister properly on this things do it after a few hours from the time you started riding it.
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  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp
    At any rate, 64mm doesn't sound good... at full bottom, you'll have space of a maximum of 8mm (could be less but not much less) behind the travel direction of the piston, you'd have a dead damping stroke at rebound, I think.

    Maybe someone who really knows about this stuff could chime in.
    Is this due to minimal oil resevoir left behind the piston?

    are you getting 35mm of travel regardless of the negative chamber setting?

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by taiter
    Is this due to minimal oil resevoir left behind the piston?
    You have a fixed volume of oil inside a variable size chamber. We know the oil will expand at some extent and that the piston will move oil at some extent... but we still have a rather fixed oil volume. If the piston "enlarges" the chamber far beyond the point of oil expansion, you have a vacuum.

    At any rate, I can try the 64mm too... I mean, I don't lose anything trying. I just have to be careful as the IFP is pressurized to 200psi... as the chamber reduces its volume the pressure will go up and I could blow a seal or something.


    Quote Originally Posted by taiter
    are you getting 35mm of travel regardless of the negative chamber setting?
    Negative chamber is nonexistent now. The seal is damaged.
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  73. #73
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    Ok, I see where you're coming from.

    The oil has to fill it's own volume so the floating piston moves and compresses the air chamber.

    My point is that the change in oil volume caused by the shaft entering the chamber (in my case 50 mm for full compression) is always the same (disregarding temp.) so if you start with a larger volume of air chamber with the IFP as close as possible to the piston, the volume reduction ratio and the pressure rise at full compression is less.

    Unless there is a hydraulic flow requirement around the piston head, you should be able to let it nearly touch the IFP at full compression.

    You might be running up against the IFP pressure increase both shutting down your damping and sending your "spring rate" off the chart.

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by taiter
    You might be running up against the IFP pressure increase both shutting down your damping and sending your "spring rate" off the chart.
    Yes, it could be.

    I'll try an IFP depth closer to the piston.

    I'm loving the low speed range... plush yet firm. But I need to tune the high speed one.

    I'll play with pressures on the IFP (another deciding factor) and settings before touching the shim stack. I'm thinking on rearranging it at a later stage.
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  75. #75
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    Warp,
    Is this shock a 190 eye to eye 50mm travel shock or do I need to call Marzocchi to see if I can get the IFP depth and pressure?

    I'm planning to open it up htis weekend.

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by taiter
    Warp,
    Is this shock a 190 eye to eye 50mm travel shock or do I need to call Marzocchi to see if I can get the IFP depth and pressure?

    I'm planning to open it up htis weekend.
    Nope... 200 X 50. 7.875" X 2"... It doesn't matter. The stroke is what matters here and it's the same.

    I'd call Zoke anyway... maybe they figured out different.

    Our mod AM contacted a MX tuner that is friends with him and word is that indeed the IFP should be close to the damper shaft... say something like 74mm instead of 79mm as I have. the intention is to improve volume and reduce progression as you mentioned.
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  77. #77
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    Nice pics Warp. Those air seals are in horrible shape. Any plans to pull that clip off and measure the rebound and compression shim stacks?

    I've never tried one of those shocks, but I'd thought I heard that it has no 'platform'. If they don't have some small common bleed I'm curious what compression shim stack and preload they use to accomplish that.

  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by .Danno.
    Nice pics Warp. Those air seals are in horrible shape. Any plans to pull that clip off and measure the rebound and compression shim stacks?

    I've never tried one of those shocks, but I'd thought I heard that it has no 'platform'. If they don't have some small common bleed I'm curious what compression shim stack and preload they use to accomplish that.
    I'll let you know... IF the damping doesn't suit me, I'll be modding the stack.

    In Italian forums, there are guys modding the Roco WC's at home....
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  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp
    I finally set the IFP in the most scientific of manners... measured the difference between the max extension of shaft and deepest of IFP and set it in the middle of those two measurements. That's 79mm. Marzocchi recommends 64mm, but the shaft goes as deep as 72mm, so the number given by Zoke means that the damper head would hit the IFP and actually compress it, but I think that's a NO-NO... Not to mention that would create a vacuum on the back of the piston (shaft side).
    Warp, what's the ratio of the shaft diameter to the IFP diameter? I'd guess about 2:1 so the ratio of the areas would be 4:1 and the IFP would move 50/4 or 12.5mm (just I guess without knowing the actual diameters). If those numbers were right the IFP would be at 64+12.5 or 76.5mm at bottom out and 4.5mm clear of the piston -- if I'm understanding your numbers correctly.

    Positioning the IFP deeper would make the shock more progressive. Too deep and you'd get hydraulic lock and possibly destroy the shock.

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by .Danno.
    Warp, what's the ratio of the shaft diameter to the IFP diameter? I'd guess about 2:1 so the ratio of the areas would be 4:1 and the IFP would move 50/4 or 12.5mm (just I guess without knowing the actual diameters). If those numbers were right the IFP would be at 64+12.5 or 76.5mm at bottom out and 4.5mm clear of the piston -- if I'm understanding your numbers correctly.

    Positioning the IFP deeper would make the shock more progressive. Too deep and you'd get hydraulic lock and possibly destroy the shock.
    Dood... I'm a freaking idiot...

    I had forgotten the little detail of the shaft taking up the volume of the oil....

    Yeah, probably my shock is hydrolocking.

    How on Earth could I be that dumb....
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  81. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp
    How on Earth could I be that dumb....

    I just want to say that you are my hero. Pulling this shock apart and putting it back together with no reference is amazing. Most people buy shocks with more dials, but you go inside where tuning nets the best quality.

    Now take that shock and make it yours! ( You need to make "Warp" Stickers, like Push, that you can put on the shock )

    P

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.P
    I just want to say that you are my hero. Pulling this shock apart and putting it back together with no reference is amazing. Most people buy shocks with more dials, but you go inside where tuning nets the best quality.

    Now take that shock and make it yours! ( You need to make "Warp" Stickers, like Push, that you can put on the shock )

    P
    Thanks for the kind words... But it's not such high merit I'd say. I had experience with the 5th Air that is another inline shock. They couldn't be that different.

    At any rate it was idiotic not to remember the shaft volume... so Zoke's figure of 64 should be just right.

    Back to the workbench....
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  83. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by .Danno.
    Warp, what's the ratio of the shaft diameter to the IFP diameter? I'd guess about 2:1 so the ratio of the areas would be 4:1 and the IFP would move 50/4 or 12.5mm (just I guess without knowing the actual diameters). If those numbers were right the IFP would be at 64+12.5 or 76.5mm at bottom out and 4.5mm clear of the piston -- if I'm understanding your numbers correctly.

    Positioning the IFP deeper would make the shock more progressive. Too deep and you'd get hydraulic lock and possibly destroy the shock.
    Yea. This is what I was getting at.

    Something is off with the 64mm though. I just went through a bunch of trial and error after starting with 64mm and having it stop dead at about 3/4 travel????

    I finally just set it at 72 and installed the shaft in the compressed position. I put in 100psi and could just barely bottom the damper by hand pushing against the floor. I closed it all up and went with 150psi on the IFP and things seem to be good. No more bubbles.

    I did my assembly in a gallon ziplock bag after I found I didn't buy enough oil to use the bucket I had planned to use. It worked great. I used Maxima 3wt shock fluid from a motorcycle shop.

    I measured all the seals and will see if there are any matches available.

    I forgot to measure the shaft or piston but the ID of the damper chamber is 30.5mm where the o-ring runs.

  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by taiter
    Yea. This is what I was getting at.

    Something is off with the 64mm though. I just went through a bunch of trial and error after starting with 64mm and having it stop dead at about 3/4 travel????

    I finally just set it at 72 and installed the shaft in the compressed position. I put in 100psi and could just barely bottom the damper by hand pushing against the floor. I closed it all up and went with 150psi on the IFP and things seem to be good. No more bubbles.

    I did my assembly in a gallon ziplock bag after I found I didn't buy enough oil to use the bucket I had planned to use. It worked great. I used Maxima 3wt shock fluid from a motorcycle shop.

    I measured all the seals and will see if there are any matches available.

    I forgot to measure the shaft or piston but the ID of the damper chamber is 30.5mm where the o-ring runs.
    I got that 2:1 ratio just looking at the pic of the shaft w/piston that Warp posted.

    If I go with that and the fact that Warp set the IFP at 79mm and said it would bottom out at 86mm, I'd expect the shock to hydro lock at 7/12.5 of the way through it's travel or 56%. He said he got 35mm out of 50mm or 70% so maybe the ratio is a tad higher. Going backwards from his 35/50 would put the IFP:Shaft diameter ratio at 2.2:1. If that's the case the IFP would move 10mm and if you set it at 64mm depth it would be 74mm deep at bottom out which would clear the end of the shaft by 2mm. Actually I think it would probably be more like 4mm because the IFP is hollow and I guessing Warp measured to the outer edge. Maybe a bad guess though.

    BTW, if the the pressure was set at 150 with the shaft out it would increase to almost 300 at bottom out because the air volume is almost cut in half. If you set the IFP any deeper, it'll go even higher.


    I've never worked on an air shock, but for the coil overs I've taken apart (5th's, DHXc's, and Romics) I hose clamp a piece of inner tube over the end to extend the tube (or tubes). I fill it just high enough to submerge the parts before pump/purge and tightening things down. It seems to work pretty good because I've never ended up with any air in them.

  85. #85
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    I had thought about trying some kind of hose or tube but this seemed more likely to do the job. There are pockets in the piston and the seal carrier that will not empty unless inverted at least to some extent.

    I don't know for sure what the reason for the halting of piston progress with the 64mm setting because I was in working mode rather than analizing mode. Judging from the available space underneath, there is always going to be a considerable pressure at bottom out. I set the IFP just out of reach then installed the damper with the piston in the extended position I think it moved but I tested the travel at 100psi and it was ok.

  86. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by taiter
    I don't know for sure what the reason for the halting of piston progress with the 64mm setting because I was in working mode rather than analizing mode. Judging from the available space underneath, there is always going to be a considerable pressure at bottom out. I set the IFP just out of reach then installed the damper with the piston in the extended position I think it moved but I tested the travel at 100psi and it was ok.
    I hear ya about the working mode. I usually think through this stuff once I'm done and then go back and do it again. I'm sure Warp will figure it all out and give us the right answer.

    BTW, I remember Warp mentioned it being harsh in one post I read, but since it's just a shimmed damper I don't think pressure should affect anything but spring rate. Although the pressure could skyrocket as it goes into hydro lock. That would add a lot to spring rate -- aproximately 1/4 the compressed IFP pressure.

  87. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by .Danno.
    BTW, I remember Warp mentioned it being harsh in one post I read, but since it's just a shimmed damper I don't think pressure should affect anything but spring rate. Although the pressure could skyrocket as it goes into hydro lock. That would add a lot to spring rate -- aproximately 1/4 the compressed IFP pressure.
    After I thought about that for awhile it sounded odd without a damping circuit to a seperate chamber.

    Mine is feeling really good but it's snow season here so I can't really say if I'm getting full travel.

    I will probably tear mine down again soon if I find the right quad-seals. Now that I have the details down on the damper, it's not that much more work to redo that too. I'll maybe call Marzocchi and see what they have to say. I'll be sure to get the volumes so I can make valid calculations on my own also.

  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by .Danno.
    I hear ya about the working mode. I usually think through this stuff once I'm done and then go back and do it again. I'm sure Warp will figure it all out and give us the right answer.

    BTW, I remember Warp mentioned it being harsh in one post I read, but since it's just a shimmed damper I don't think pressure should affect anything but spring rate. Although the pressure could skyrocket as it goes into hydro lock. That would add a lot to spring rate -- aproximately 1/4 the compressed IFP pressure.
    I have to work on it this week... this weekend the latest. I'll take accurate measurements and note them in here for you to help me figure out the correct set-up.

    However, on a twin-thread on the Titus board, BCBlur mentioned he couldn't get more than 35mm of travel from his shock after it came back from Zoke.

    The low speed damping feels nice, but it gets harsh as it speeds up. I know I could bottom the shock by hand when I rebuilt it... so I'm kind clueless... the info is all over the place including mine.

    I'll try to find out.

    BTW... I took measurements to the raised part of the IFP (the one I can comfortably reach with the caliper's depth gauge). I made some calculations based on an IFP calculation by presslab on a old post and the 64mm given by Zoke would be enough if the shaft is 12mm dia. For 10mm dia. It COULD be just enough.

    IFP diameter should be in the order of 30mm.... the outer diameter of the damper body is 32mm (just like forks). I'm supposing (because I haven't measured) a wall thickness of around 1mm... That would make the IFP 30mm dia or maybe a hair more if the wall is thinner.

    .Danno.... Yeah, I agree the IFP raising in pressure should affect mainly the spring rate... But it could be affecting high speed damping. As the pressure raises in the IFP chamber, it will try to move more fluid through the damper (higher differential pressure across it) and it could be spiking and let's not forget of the possible hydrolock.

    What puzzles me is that BCBlur's shock just came from Zoke and it's acting pretty much as my shock. As I said, at this point I'm clueless.

    BTW... RS' Monarch shocks have an IFP depth of 61mm for the same damper stroke.
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    I don't think IFP pressure has any bearing on the pressure the damper sees. The oil is drawn through the shim stack by the negative pressure behind the piston and the IFP is there to prevent cavitation or expansion of any air that does happen to be there. There has to be something else going on. Might be time to start swapping shims.

    Did you try setting your negative air chamber at full compression to eliminate the bottoming resistance due to the vacuum?

  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by taiter
    I don't think IFP pressure has any bearing on the pressure the damper sees. The oil is drawn through the shim stack by the negative pressure behind the piston and the IFP is there to prevent cavitation or expansion of any air that does happen to be there. There has to be something else going on. Might be time to start swapping shims.
    Could be...

    I'm thinking on swapping places between the 4th and 5th stage shims on the compression stack.

    Quote Originally Posted by taiter
    Did you try setting your negative air chamber at full compression to eliminate the bottoming resistance due to the vacuum?
    No... I couldn't with the shock as is now. The bottom out seal is damaged and that chamber doesn't hold air in.

    I have to replace it this week.
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  91. #91
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    Found an old thread where several people were complaining about not getting full travel even with BO set to a minimum.

    TitusQuasi sent his into Marz to get it tweaked but never posted about the changes. I pinged on him for status.

    I ebay'd a Float AVA and sent it into Push this morning. I'll likely use the Float as my main shock when it comes back and use the Roco as a backup (and the 5th as a backup to the backup).

  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by BCBlur
    Found an old thread where several people were complaining about not getting full travel even with BO set to a minimum.

    TitusQuasi sent his into Marz to get it tweaked but never posted about the changes. I pinged on him for status.

    I ebay'd a Float AVA and sent it into Push this morning. I'll likely use the Float as my main shock when it comes back and use the Roco as a backup (and the 5th as a backup to the backup).
    Thanks, Bro!!!

    I'm dumping my Float.

    The Roco and the 5th will keep me riding.
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  93. #93
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    Does the "bottom out" air adjust on my 08 Roco TST Air adjust the IFP pressure ?~?


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    Quote Originally Posted by All Mountain
    Does the "bottom out" air adjust on my 08 Roco TST Air adjust the IFP pressure ?~?
    Does the TST has a bottom out adjustment??

    I think it is the other way around... the IFP pressure increases the total spring rate and prevents bottoming.
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  95. #95
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    The Roco TST bottom out adjust is adding air in the valve at the bottom of the piggy.

    If I remember correctly the pressure range is 170 to 210 psi.

    So that means IFP pressure influences the end of stroke progression on the 07 Roco Air (just means mine is slightly easier to adjust IFP pressure than yours) ?~?

    Total stroke or End of Stroke on the TST version ?~?

  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by All Mountain
    The Roco TST bottom out adjust is adding air in the valve at the bottom of the piggy.

    If I remember correctly the pressure range is 170 to 210 psi.

    So that means IFP pressure influences the end of stroke progression on the 07 Roco Air (just means mine is slightly easier to adjust IFP pressure than yours) ?~?

    Total stroke or End of Stroke on the TST version ?~?
    Yeah, it uses the pressure on the piggy (IFP chamber) to tune bottom out.

    It actually increases the overall spring rate, but it's more noticeable as you compress the IFP.

    Actually, it's as you mention just slightly easier to adjust as on the R is equally easy. Ok, not as much as on yours, but it's just a matter of removing the little cap and connect the pump.

    AM, I guess you were the only one NOT having troubles to bottom it out... but you weight pretty much as a rugby player and ride aggressively. So, I'm thinking stock valving has way too much high speed compression. Low speed is the nicest around... But everyone and his mom is having troubles to use full travel.
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  97. #97
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    Per TitusQuasi in this thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by titusquasi
    I got fed up with it and it's at the bottom of the parts bin. Shock went back to Marzocchi for warranty work. There were some seals going bad (see Warp's thread on this shock) and they dropped the oil weight. Shock came back and compression was much lighter (actually too light) but I could never get the thing to give up the last 1/4" of travel without running over 50% sag.
    Not good news.

  98. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by BCBlur
    Per TitusQuasi in this thread:

    Not good news.
    Unless the IFP depth is way off (which I doubt) that's got to be the air spring. The volume must get really small near bottom out causing the pressure to skyrocket preventing bottom out.

  99. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by .Danno.
    I got that 2:1 ratio just looking at the pic of the shaft w/piston that Warp posted.

    If I go with that and the fact that Warp set the IFP at 79mm and said it would bottom out at 86mm, I'd expect the shock to hydro lock at 7/12.5 of the way through it's travel or 56%. He said he got 35mm out of 50mm or 70% so maybe the ratio is a tad higher. Going backwards from his 35/50 would put the IFP:Shaft diameter ratio at 2.2:1. If that's the case the IFP would move 10mm and if you set it at 64mm depth it would be 74mm deep at bottom out which would clear the end of the shaft by 2mm. Actually I think it would probably be more like 4mm because the IFP is hollow and I guessing Warp measured to the outer edge. Maybe a bad guess though.

    BTW, if the the pressure was set at 150 with the shaft out it would increase to almost 300 at bottom out because the air volume is almost cut in half. If you set the IFP any deeper, it'll go even higher.


    I've never worked on an air shock, but for the coil overs I've taken apart (5th's, DHXc's, and Romics) I hose clamp a piece of inner tube over the end to extend the tube (or tubes). I fill it just high enough to submerge the parts before pump/purge and tightening things down. It seems to work pretty good because I've never ended up with any air in them.
    Finally took some measurements...

    Shaft: 12.7mm dia. (1/2")

    IFP: 28.6mm dia. (1 1/8") after the threads where the IFP runs (the caliper barely reaches there but it does).

    Taiter's measurement of 30.5 is at the point where the seal head o-ring sits at.

    He's right that 64mm to the face of the IFP gives you a dead stop at some 45mm of shaft travel. Actually you can hear metal to metal contact and with the IFP at 100psi, you can bottom the thing.

    I'll try 64mm to the rim of the IFP (IFP thickness is something like 6mm, forgot the right figure, sorry) and report back.

    Your math is pretty close, Danno.

    I worked this time very slowly with the shaft at full extension and could get the damper properly bled.

    BTW... the piston look like being dished. Out of curiosity, I removed the bolt and swapped the last two stages of shims. At the shaft side of the compression stack, there's 4 small back up shims. I put two of them before what was the last stage of shims and two between these and the backing plate. When doing this, I noticed that while I was tightening the stack I was feeling more resistance and if I get medieval on the bolt, the shims would bend towards the backing plate.

    If indeed the piston is dished, no wonder where the nice pedaling and plushness come from.
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  100. #100
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    64mm to the border of the IFP did the trick.

    it can now be bottomed without canister and without any pressure (on the bike, though... very hard to do it by hand).

    Man, the air canister seems to be the issue... maybe too heavy damping. Or a combination of both.

    Danno... what would be better? Lower IFP pressure and use different oil weight to avoid cavitation?? What oil weight? I'm using now a 5wt (17cSt)... at 100psi IFP I can hear whooshing sounds from the damper.
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