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  1. #1
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    Push Industries worth $200 vs the Fox factory rebuilt

    I have a 5 yr old RP23 that works, but the rebound dial seems to do little and my pro pedal lovers seems to be moving further out when I flip it.

    I thought about sending it to Push, but since they jacked the price to $200 from $160, I see it as way less of a value. Fox rebuild is $140

    Is the Push rebuild really worth the extra $60?
    Lead by my Lefty............... right down the trail, no brakes.

  2. #2
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    A custom tune is well worth it, but while Push does a good good job, Avalanche does it a little better because of how they modify the low speed circuit. And its cheaper then Push.

    Float CTD and RP23 SSD Modifications

    You will be happy with either, but IMO, better value and performance will come from Avalanche.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    A custom tune is well worth it, but while Push does a good good job, Avalanche does it a little better because of how they modify the low speed circuit. And its cheaper then Push.

    Float CTD and RP23 SSD Modifications

    You will be happy with either, but IMO, better value and performance will come from Avalanche.

    I found the Avalache info after I posted. I don't have a boost valve on my RP23, but I do rides where that high speed dampening could be very useful.

    I will put them on my list too
    Lead by my Lefty............... right down the trail, no brakes.

  4. #4
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    Avalanche does it a little better because of how they modify the low speed circuit.
    The low speed circuit on a Float shock uses a fixed orifice size with an adjustable bleed on rebound, and a fixed orifice size with an adjustable bleed on compression. How exactly is the Avalanche different than what we do?

    And its cheaper then Push.
    Because we replace the piston, piston glide ring, all shims, and install a new FLOAT Air Sleeve Seal kit....all of these items are not included with the AVA service.

    Darren

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by PUSHIND View Post
    Avalanche different than what we do?
    The way I understand it, they not only change the stiffness of the CV spring like you and most other tuners do when needed. They also change the length ot the spring to give the poppet a controlled amount of float.

    Feel free to correct me if I am wrong. I also I nothing bad to say about your company. I have sent many customers your way, all of which are happy. Im sure you know that I am a huge proponent of custom tuning, and its great to have options.

  6. #6
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    Avalanche has years of experience behind them and if you call, he'll talk to you on whats going to be done. Push invests a lot in testing equipment, and also has years of experience. Recently, I've found their offerings to have improved immensely. Either theyre doing things different, or the website is showing more of what they do.

    All this tuning stuff is only really noticeable once you start bombing down gnar big time. At which point, you have to ask, are you on the right bike?

  7. #7
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    Push Industries worth $200 vs the Fox factory rebuilt

    I just had my 2013 kashima talus 140 pushed for my stumpy. And all I can say is WOW!!! Between that and suspension experts in North Carolina tuning my triad. It's better then when it was new. Did a 15 mile ungroomed old school ride sat on it and wow is all I have to say. Some of the best money I've spent on the bike besides the wheel set and dropper


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  8. #8
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    The way I understand it, they not only change the stiffness of the CV spring like you and most other tuners do when needed. They also change the length ot the spring to give the poppet a controlled amount of float.

    Feel free to correct me if I am wrong. I also I nothing bad to say about your company. I have sent many customers your way, all of which are happy. Im sure you know that I am a huge proponent of custom tuning, and its great to have options.
    I can only speak for PUSH and our FTC's, but we have always adjusted both the spring and the springs float. This was something we implemented with our initial Factory Tuning System of the 2007 RP series shocks.

    I didn't mean to sound like you were saying anything negative about PUSH, just clearing up information.

    Darren

  9. #9
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    5 year old RP23... is performance paramount or just meh? If you are concerned about price Risse Racing will rebuild and tune for $80 Risse Racing - Mountain Bike Suspension Service. Forks and Rear Shocks .If you are into performance from PUSH or Avalanche keep in mind Avalanche's tune is gravity oriented so don't expect to flip the switch and have firm Propedal.

  10. #10
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    Anxiously awaiting a couple Pushed shocks! Can't wait!
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by keen View Post
    5 year old RP23... is performance paramount or just meh? If you are concerned about price Risse Racing will rebuild and tune for $80 Risse Racing - Mountain Bike Suspension Service. Forks and Rear Shocks .If you are into performance from PUSH or Avalanche keep in mind Avalanche's tune is gravity oriented so don't expect to flip the switch and have firm Propedal.

    Price is a consideration, but I'm willing to pay for a good service. That $200 of Push just pushed me over the edge to consider other option or even it was worth it. If they still had that $169 price, I would not of even questioned it and sent it in.

    As for Avalanche and their service, I did get the impression they tuned for DH. With my much improved endurance, I do climb big mtns and strive for the long down hill runs. So, having that propedal is a good thing. Avalance did offer a firmer pedal oriented service.

    Performance matters to me, but I have to see the value in the service.

    With the $180-$200 or so prices, I debated if I just should not go big and get a new Cane Creek Double barrel shock. With all that tuning ability, that $470 would seem worth it.
    Lead by my Lefty............... right down the trail, no brakes.

  12. #12
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    Price is a consideration, but I'm willing to pay for a good service. That $200 of Push just pushed me over the edge to consider other option or even it was worth it. If they still had that $169 price, I would not of even questioned it and sent it in.

    As for Avalanche and their service, I did get the impression they tuned for DH. With my much improved endurance, I do climb big mtns and strive for the long down hill runs. So, having that propedal is a good thing. Avalance did offer a firmer pedal oriented service.

    Performance matters to me, but I have to see the value in the service.

    With the $180-$200 or so prices, I debated if I just should not go big and get a new Cane Creek Double barrel shock. With all that tuning ability, that $470 would seem worth it.
    I completely understand where you're coming from. For us unfortunately we've had to raise our prices due to increase part costs from vendors including FOX. The complexity of modern shocks and the need to dig deeper into them to replace even the tiniest of seals has also increased the time that it takes to service them.

    Darren

  13. #13
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    I sure hope it is worth it!!! I have a fork sitting up there as I type this, way too far into this fork then I wanted to be but I sure hope it is worth it. So I should be getting back almost a brand new fork ( rebuild, talas to float conversion, tune, new bushings, new upper uppers) My only complaint so far is that I always seem to get different prices on items depending on when I ask and that when you are getting work done and rebuilds done already you have to pay full retail for parts and they stack it up so it adds up quick without a your buying multiple things for this fork let me give you a bit of a bro deal. That said I went up there years ago for their first "clinic" to see the place and talk to people and see what all they did. Darren seemed like a really cool dude and they are a local Colorado company, so when fox factory tune gave me a better price on all the work I went with push just because I have met them before and my shock on my old bike was killer. So I have faith that that you are getting more moneys worth then just a normal rebuild somewhere else.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by keen View Post
    Avalanche keep in mind Avalanche's tune is gravity oriented so don't expect to flip the switch and have firm Propedal.
    Not at all. Avalanche may have sold more gravity-products because they focused on that with their in-house stuff (DHS shock, DHF fork), but the reason was they didn't want to compromise performance at all and they felt smaller reservoirs, shaft and piston sizes did just that, regardless of if it was DH or XC. I love riding all around and my chubby shock was perfect for that. Good firm low-speed compression that resisted bobbing and helped with acceleration efforts. Helped when getting the rear wheel above a step and putting in a power-stroke uphill. Helped uphill when encountering a sharp rock to keep the rear wheel glued. Helped with responsiveness in turns, etc. All that and it just felt better the faster you went in the rough, but not "gravity orientated". I'd call it "rider orientated", having your cake and being able to eat it too, rather than the compromise you often had to make on XC shocks, which would have similar low-speed firmness, but terrible high speed damping characteristics or feeling like a jackhammer going up rough technical terrain. With these mods we are once again able to have a better compromise, it's not about XC or downhill.

    My custom avalanche was "firm propedal" in terms of how it pedaled and the low speed. Hard to convey, but just sitting on it you noticed how much firmer it was than a stock shock...
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Not at all. Avalanche may have sold more gravity-products because they focused on that with their in-house stuff (DHS shock, DHF fork), but the reason was they didn't want to compromise performance at all and they felt smaller reservoirs, shaft and piston sizes did just that, regardless of if it was DH or XC. I love riding all around and my chubby shock was perfect for that. Good firm low-speed compression that resisted bobbing and helped with acceleration efforts. Helped when getting the rear wheel above a step and putting in a power-stroke uphill. Helped uphill when encountering a sharp rock to keep the rear wheel glued. Helped with responsiveness in turns, etc. All that and it just felt better the faster you went in the rough, but not "gravity orientated". I'd call it "rider orientated", having your cake and being able to eat it too, rather than the compromise you often had to make on XC shocks, which would have similar low-speed firmness, but terrible high speed damping characteristics or feeling like a jackhammer going up rough technical terrain. With these mods we are once again able to have a better compromise, it's not about XC or downhill.

    My custom avalanche was "firm propedal" in terms of how it pedaled and the low speed. Hard to convey, but just sitting on it you noticed how much firmer it was than a stock shock...
    OP says he has an RP23 a bit different animal than your Chubie. I had a non boost RP23, on my trail bike, that was way past due for service (Propedal lever did nothing). I talked with Craig about his service and decided I would do the standard SSD / HSB tune. My first descent felt like I switched to a coil shock! It was super compliant, supportive through its travel and high speed chatter was greatly minimized. Pointed uphill was a bit different. The bike seemed to ride a little higher in its travel but was quite active regardless of the PP setting. I did my best to focus on smooth pedal stroke etc. but for trail use I needed less activity. I talked with Craig again and he said If I went with the Firmer tune I would lose some of what I had gained for descending performance. Went w/ the firm tune and it did give a little here and take a little there. Still I wouldn't compare the Propedal one bit to a stock RP23 just more of it. This is a great performance mod for technical climbing and descending but wouldn't be my first recommendation for firm climbing.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by keen View Post
    OP says he has an RP23 a bit different animal than your Chubie. I had a non boost RP23, on my trail bike, that was way past due for service (Propedal lever did nothing). I talked with Craig about his service and decided I would do the standard SSD / HSB tune. My first descent felt like I switched to a coil shock! It was super compliant, supportive through its travel and high speed chatter was greatly minimized. Pointed uphill was a bit different. The bike seemed to ride a little higher in its travel but was quite active regardless of the PP setting. I did my best to focus on smooth pedal stroke etc. but for trail use I needed less activity. I talked with Craig again and he said If I went with the Firmer tune I would lose some of what I had gained for descending performance. Went w/ the firm tune and it did give a little here and take a little there. Still I wouldn't compare the Propedal one bit to a stock RP23 just more of it. This is a great performance mod for technical climbing and descending but wouldn't be my first recommendation for firm climbing.
    Hmm, well I'd characterize my chubby uphill as being less active than my bike's stock shock, improving the pedaling performance, with less squat, more acceleration, better responsiveness. I'm not sure any mod that is as "firm" as you are suggesting would perform well anywhere else? Unless you can completely turn it off, which I think essentially requires two separate completely/adequately designed circuits. Seems to be what we are moving towards at this time, although not in any hurry. I think this idea would easily trump a band-aid propedal type shock that just makes the shock a little firmer, but negates it's usefulness by impacting the performance greatly.

    I feel like the air/XC shocks have always short-changed us as riders. When I had trail/AM bikes that I rode everywhere, I liked having a bike that wasn't a lead anchor, yet I wanted the same kind of damping circuits my chubby had. I tried several air shocks through the years on them. RP3 was a joke, harsh all the way around, way excessive compression damping without good high speed circuit. It was like manufacturers just thought "eh, this is good enough, they'll never really care". It's not like the technology was secret or something, just good speed sensitive pistons that would react well over a variety of terrain. Then there was the RP23, basically on open it rode too harsh, but with the higher settings it got ridiculous, flinging your butt in the air every time you hit a little branch/rock/impact. It was so annoying that I couldn't figure out how this was "helping" me climb, and in the "zero" setting it wasn't much better. It was light, but why such poor suspension? Then the DHX Air, lol. Seemed like the opposite, with no ability to keep up with the terrain when it started getting choppy and rough, just blew through the travel with nary enough left for the next impact. Any attempt to tune out had a serious impact on everything else.

    The coil shocks I owned over the years didn't seem to be nearly as poor. Although they had a big step to get over, they almost never resorted to the ridiculous no-shim setups controlled by washers and other things that we've seen in the air shocks.

    Now, finally, with some of the tuning and even (gasp) some of the factory shocks, we are seeing some circuits that are decent and allow for good all around performance. It just blows my mind we had to wait for it and the substandard stuff was allowed on bikes.

    This is kind of my rant with forks as well, fox was doing right it all along (until recently with the Evolution series), but every other manufacturer was putting junk in there for damping systems long after the correct technology was freely available for anyone who wanted to use it.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Hmm, well I'd characterize my chubby uphill as being less active than my bike's stock shock, improving the pedaling performance, with less squat, more acceleration, better responsiveness. I'm not sure any mod that is as "firm" as you are suggesting would perform well anywhere else? Unless you can completely turn it off, which I think essentially requires two separate completely/adequately designed circuits. Seems to be what we are moving towards at this time, although not in any hurry. I think this idea would easily trump a band-aid propedal type shock that just makes the shock a little firmer, but negates it's usefulness by impacting the performance greatly.

    I see what you did there Darren!

    In any case, I think it will have merit, not sure everyone is ready for it yet, but I know it will work awesome!
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  18. #18
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    It's as if you had some inside information as to the goings on behind our doors! Pretty funny Jayem how that worked out actually. I didn't even see it at the time.

    Darren

    Push Industries worth 0 vs the Fox factory rebuilt-11.6-co.jpg

  19. #19
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    Push Industries worth $200 vs the Fox factory rebuilt

    I've had experience with both PUSH and Avalanche and they are both top notch companies. I've also had experience with PUSH's customer service. Again, top of the line. I wouldn't hesitate to use either of these companies. I had an RP23 done by PUSH and my charger damper to my Pike done by Ava (RP23 on my 26" stumpy and Pike on my 29er enduro). Both companies accomplished exactly what I wanted.

    I would slightly disagree with another poster about custom tunes really only coming into play when bombing down some rough trail. Remember, these suspension companies are putting in an all-encompassing tune. I don't fit that tune automatically as my geared up weight ranges from 225-240lbs. I have to fill my shocks with very high air pressure which makes my rides very harsh. Then, if I do hit something that makes my suspension move, I tend to blow through all the travel. Not so with a custom tune. I haven't been to PUSH's site in awhile but if the price increased by $31, so be it. Time is money. I don't have endless hours to ride my bike every week. The hours I do have I want to spend having as much fun as possible. A tuned suspension bike is a lot more fun than the harsh rides I used to have.

    Darren, I just saw your new shock on Pink Bike today!!! I about passed out when I saw you were planning to make one for the 29er Enduro!!! I do have a quick question though; why go with low speed rebound, low speed compression, high speed compression? Why not cut out high speed compression and do high speed rebound instead? I'm no expert by any means (hence why I ask) but I tend to get a lot more use out of high speed rebound than high speed compression. For example, when you guys tuned my RP23, it could take bigger hits sooooo much better than stock. I assumed you all set the high speed compression internally that worked perfectly for me. No need to ever crack it open to modify. Secondly, when I got my enduro, I found the high speed compression setting on my CCDB air that worked for me. Never touched it again. What I have noticed though is that I do notice a difference with high speed rebound. Again, I'm a big guy so my high speed rebound needs to be a lot slower than smaller peeps when I come down from a drop or jump. That has helped my air time skills a lot once my bike stopped hucking me forward after landing. However, there are times when I'll be riding through very rough areas that will cause my rear shock to go deep into its travel I like being able to speed the high speed rebound back up to cut back on the harshness of the ride.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laterilus View Post

    Darren, I just saw your new shock on Pink Bike today!!! I about passed out when I saw you were planning to make one for the 29er Enduro!!!.
    When you get your shock rebuilt or upgrade the E29, take a look at the pivots. All my pivot bearings were shot. Some of them take a special bearing-puller. A local bearing supply shop usually has a simple tool that can do this rather inexpensively, but Push sells one that costs hundreds of dollars. Either will work. I recently upgraded to a Monarch+ and did this and I'm glad I got the bearings from Enduro (RWC). It needed it big-time.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laterilus View Post
    I've had experience with both PUSH and Avalanche and they are both top notch companies. I've also had experience with PUSH's customer service. Again, top of the line. I wouldn't hesitate to use either of these companies. I had an RP23 done by PUSH and my charger damper to my Pike done by Ava (RP23 on my 26" stumpy and Pike on my 29er enduro). Both companies accomplished exactly what I wanted.

    I would slightly disagree with another poster about custom tunes really only coming into play when bombing down some rough trail. Remember, these suspension companies are putting in an all-encompassing tune. I don't fit that tune automatically as my geared up weight ranges from 225-240lbs. I have to fill my shocks with very high air pressure which makes my rides very harsh. Then, if I do hit something that makes my suspension move, I tend to blow through all the travel. Not so with a custom tune. I haven't been to PUSH's site in awhile but if the price increased by $31, so be it. Time is money. I don't have endless hours to ride my bike every week. The hours I do have I want to spend having as much fun as possible. A tuned suspension bike is a lot more fun than the harsh rides I used to have.

    Darren, I just saw your new shock on Pink Bike today!!! I about passed out when I saw you were planning to make one for the 29er Enduro!!! I do have a quick question though; why go with low speed rebound, low speed compression, high speed compression? Why not cut out high speed compression and do high speed rebound instead? I'm no expert by any means (hence why I ask) but I tend to get a lot more use out of high speed rebound than high speed compression. For example, when you guys tuned my RP23, it could take bigger hits sooooo much better than stock. I assumed you all set the high speed compression internally that worked perfectly for me. No need to ever crack it open to modify. Secondly, when I got my enduro, I found the high speed compression setting on my CCDB air that worked for me. Never touched it again. What I have noticed though is that I do notice a difference with high speed rebound. Again, I'm a big guy so my high speed rebound needs to be a lot slower than smaller peeps when I come down from a drop or jump. That has helped my air time skills a lot once my bike stopped hucking me forward after landing. However, there are times when I'll be riding through very rough areas that will cause my rear shock to go deep into its travel I like being able to speed the high speed rebound back up to cut back on the harshness of the ride.
    You got me there. I am on the other end of the weight spectrum. I am 160 pounds. I find the need to do some tuning every now and then.

  22. #22
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    Push Industries worth $200 vs the Fox factory rebuilt

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    When you get your shock rebuilt or upgrade the E29, take a look at the pivots. All my pivot bearings were shot. Some of them take a special bearing-puller. A local bearing supply shop usually has a simple tool that can do this rather inexpensively, but Push sells one that costs hundreds of dollars. Either will work. I recently upgraded to a Monarch+ and did this and I'm glad I got the bearings from Enduro (RWC). It needed it big-time.
    I always do. I recently had to do an air can service. I wrote a thread on how i did it for the double barrel in this shock section of mtbr. All my bearings are still very smooth. No problems. I've also changed out my front shock mount bushing to an off-set one to make the enduro 29er a little more slack. Checked the hearings that time as well. All good. I didn't know they required a specific bearing tool. I've always used sockets, some threaded rods and nuts. A vise too if need be. I was able to do that with the 2012 stumpy evo, but I haven't looked closely at the Enduro yet.

  23. #23
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    PUSH raised their price to $200 for one reason alone.

    When they set up authorized tuning centers, the tuning centers had to charge the same prices. However, they also had to buy the parts from PUSH. One of those centers realized he was not going to make any money on the service now, since he had to pay push for the tuning information as well as the pistons, shims, poppet shims, damper oring kits, etc.

    So this tuning center said "let's all just raise the price to $200." So they did.

    Feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

  24. #24
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    Also, I have rebuilt PUSH and Avalanche modified floats. There is not a difference at all in the methods. They are doing exactly the same thing. Both are much, much more skilled technicians than Fox Factory.

    Avalanche does not give you a new air sleeve kit, and it always seemed to me like they simply don't have a FOX account. But there is your price difference.

    If you ever saw the FOX guys at work in their "factory," you probably would not ever send anything to them.

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    There is no additional complexity in servicing newer fox shocks (of course DRCV requires small supplemental ring kit) that would raise the price. The oldest RP3 and the newest CTD take about the same technique and time.

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