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  1. #1
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    Push or Avalanche for a Fox Vanilla RC

    After doing some lift access DH riding this year, I have had a bottoming problem with my 2012 Vanilla RC(on a Jamis XAM). Spring rate gives me a little under 25% sag, so Its not a spring problem. I have come to the conclusion that before I do anymore DH riding this year, I need to do something to solve the harsh bottoming before I do any damage. I have been waiting for the Push MX tune to become available, but I have given up hope on that.

    So my question is Push factory tune Vs. Avalanche SSD damper. Both seem to have Pros and Cons and I cant decide.

    Thoughts?

  2. #2
    www.derbyrims.com
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    My old '04 Vanilla RC, having a steel shaft, upgraded with the PUSH Factory tune was a huge improvement over stock for AM type trail riding. It eliminated spiking on rapid repeating larger hits and the hard bottoming if compression was adjusted softer to reduce spiking. The PUSH bottom bumper with progressive cushion combined with the more speed sensitive damping improved bottom travel ramp up (the second bumper, the first was too firm).

    What are the cons of the Avalanche SSD damper? I guess I've only seen good reviews, although expensive.

    I read in the interwebs somewhere years ago, if I recall, that the PUSH MX adjustable dampers were sourced from Avalanche. There's more to the PUSH tune than dampers, including custom pistons, shims, better bushings and seals, reserve chamber gas pressure and volume tuning, and bottom bumpers.
    Last edited by derby; 06-11-2012 at 08:56 AM. Reason: spelling

  3. #3
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    Both cost 200 bucks, so the price is even.

    IMO, the pros and cons are:

    Push Pros:
    New main piston
    Asymmetrical valve piston bolt.
    Urethane Shaft Seal Installed

    Push Cons:
    Leave the stock bridge damper.


    Avalanche Pros
    New Bridge damper with great reviews

    Avalanche cons:
    Stock main piston
    No Asymmetrical valve


    Im being picky, an know that both would be a big upgrade. If Push would bring back the MX tune, there would be no cons other then the extra 100 dollar price tag. But after waiting 7+ months, I am going to just assume that its not going to be available anytime soon.

  4. #4
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    Our Factory Tuning System for the RC is also Speed Sensitive we just don't market that term as all dampers are.

    Another factor that is often overlooked is tuning database. We've been tuning the RC shocks since 2003, and the new generation VAN-RC since it's inception in 2009. That amount of customer feedback and tuning experience is something that only comes from tuning thousands of these shocks. Our tuning components, or any tuning components for that matter, are no where near as effective without that experience.

    Obviously, I'm biased!

    Darren

  5. #5
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    Give Craig at Avalanche a call, let him know what you want out of your shock and he'll give you some info on tuning options.

  6. #6
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    The stock vanilla rc is speed sensitive rather then position sensitive like the dhx shocks. That's the main reason I went with the vanilla rc over a dhx(although I wouldn't be having a bottom out problem if I went with the dhx) I lean towards push because of how involved you are in places such as mtbr. In perfect situation, the mx tune would be available and I wouldnt be having to contemplate what to do.

  7. #7
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    I've had both. I'm a huge fan of PUSH for all other applications but on the coil over Fox's, Craig's (Avalanche) work is better at preventing spiking during fast stutter type bumps. Both are speed sensitive damping and work well on bigger hits. Like others have said, PUSH MX tune would be the ultimate but not available.

    Have FUN!

    G MAN
    "There's two shuttles, one to the top and one to the hospital" I LOVE this place!!!

  8. #8
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    As with the last round of MX-Tune shocks, customers who had previously purchased our Factory Tuning were given the opportunity to upgrade to the MX package at a discounted rate. The rate was dependent on the time in the field. For example, if you had your shock Factory Tuned this week and the MX became available 5 weeks from now, you'd be able to upgrade for just the difference in cost between the packages. Obviously if you had your Factory Tuning done a year and a half prior the costing would be different. In this type of situation we work with people case by case.

    Darren

  9. #9
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    Darren,

    So you will have the MX tune available again? I'd still like to upgrade my Factory Tuned Fox on my M3 as I've never been totally satisfied with it (that is if I don't sell it this summer).

    I'll also point out that Craig's systems use a nitrogen charge (and he has some trick reservoir enlargers now too). I doubt that has much bearing on the shock's feel but it makes them user unserviceable (unless you have compressed nitrogen available to you). His oil and seal change/nitrogen charge is $100 and I've had to do that annually lately which isn't exactly in my budget these days. Could be a reason you might consider the PUSH upgrade instead, especially if the MX Tune will be a future option!

    Have FUN!

    G MAN
    "There's two shuttles, one to the top and one to the hospital" I LOVE this place!!!

  10. #10
    moaaar shimz
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    Nitrogen charges do not make them unserviceable, unless you purchase the extended reservoir in which the schrader valve gets replaced with a rubber pellet port to inject the N2 with a syringe.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacubaya View Post
    Nitrogen charges do not make them unserviceable, unless you purchase the extended reservoir in which the schrader valve gets replaced with a rubber pellet port to inject the N2 with a syringe.
    USER unserviceable meaning most of us don't have nitrogen laying around our garages. Most cycle shops will do that but not FREE!
    Bottom line - more $'s and more time vs. checking air pressure in the remote resy with a shock pump with the PUSH version giving even more adjustment options. So both have their pluses and minuses.

    Have FUN!

    G MAN
    "There's two shuttles, one to the top and one to the hospital" I LOVE this place!!!

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by PUSHIND View Post
    As with the last round of MX-Tune shocks, customers who had previously purchased our Factory Tuning were given the opportunity to upgrade to the MX package at a discounted rate. The rate was dependent on the time in the field. For example, if you had your shock Factory Tuned this week and the MX became available 5 weeks from now, you'd be able to upgrade for just the difference in cost between the packages. Obviously if you had your Factory Tuning done a year and a half prior the costing would be different. In this type of situation we work with people case by case.

    Darren
    Darren, is the plan to have the MX tune back in stock by fall? If this is the case, I may just suck it up and wait. I have a few riding trips planned and dont want to have any down time anyway. If the MX tune will be back, I might just skip the DH riding until then.

  13. #13
    dab
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    MX or Avy????????

    Shut the Front door!!! I thought that Darren posted that Push was going to concentrate on tuning as there core business and was it going to sell the MX system. I would like to upgrade my Van RC with Push, but I thought the MX was dead, so I was looking at the Avy system. So what is it!! Is the MX going to be available sometime soon?!!

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by PUSHIND View Post
    For example, if you had your shock Factory Tuned this week and the MX became available 5 weeks from now, you'd be able to upgrade for just the difference in cost between the packages. Obviously if you had your Factory Tuning done a year and a half prior the costing would be different. In this type of situation we work with people case by case.

    Darren
    Oh now you stepped on a pile of bad do-do Darren! You tell everybody that there are no more "manufactured" shocks, back to the core bussiness, lost your butt on the MX-tune, now everybody is going to mis-quote you on this one!
    How many posts will it take you to safely back out of this?
    ****

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by dab View Post
    Shut the Front door!!! I thought that Darren posted that Push was going to concentrate on tuning as there core business and was it going to sell the MX system. I would like to upgrade my Van RC with Push, but I thought the MX was dead, so I was looking at the Avy system. So what is it!! Is the MX going to be available sometime soon?!!
    Last time I emailed Push about mx-tune release date, they declined to answer when it would actually be available.

    Go with Avalanche, you won't be sorry.

  16. #16
    moaaar shimz
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gman086 View Post
    USER unserviceable meaning most of us don't have nitrogen laying around our garages. Most cycle shops will do that but not FREE!
    Bottom line - more $'s and more time vs. checking air pressure in the remote resy with a shock pump with the PUSH version giving even more adjustment options. So both have their pluses and minuses.

    Have FUN!

    G MAN
    Did you read what I said?

    Nitrogen itself does not make it unserviceable. If you keep the schrader valve, you can fill it up with air, no need for nitrogen. Nitrogen is a bit better than air because it comes dry so it has no water molecules.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade View Post
    Oh now you stepped on a pile of bad do-do Darren! You tell everybody that there are no more "manufactured" shocks, back to the core bussiness, lost your butt on the MX-tune, now everybody is going to mis-quote you on this one!
    How many posts will it take you to safely back out of this?
    I recall Darren saying the MX tune was part of the core business they wanted to get back too. Tuning fox suspension.

  18. #18
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    It sounds like there might be some confusion from another post here. The MX tune was an incredibly successful product that we will be bringing back to market. When? I won't comment on that as it always gets me into trouble. We have a large inventory of MX parts in stock, but not enough to bring the whole kit to market. We make all of our machined parts in house...those of you who follow our facebook page already know. We're VERY proud of that, and I can say we're the only suspension tuner that does. Even though we've continued to increase our manufacturing horsepower, we still find ourselves behind on production. In fact, I was just in Denver last Wednesday at a new production CNC demo as we prepare for additional expansion. Blah, blah, blah....you guys want MX-Tune and please understand that we want to offer it as badly as you!

    How did we get so behind? Well, a big part of that equation was certainly building parts necessary to sell complete shocks. What I thought would be a niche product turned out to be a large animal. As I've mentioned in other post, it detracted from our core business....tuning forks and shocks. Products such as Factory Tuning Systems, Factory Fork Systems, MX-Tune.....etc. That's were all of our focus is now. It's taking some time, but we're definitely back on track.

    Darren

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by PUSHIND View Post
    It sounds like there might be some confusion from another post here. The MX tune was an incredibly successful product that we will be bringing back to market. When? I won't comment on that as it always gets me into trouble. We have a large inventory of MX parts in stock, but not enough to bring the whole kit to market. We make all of our machined parts in house...those of you who follow our facebook page already know. We're VERY proud of that, and I can say we're the only suspension tuner that does. Even though we've continued to increase our manufacturing horsepower, we still find ourselves behind on production. In fact, I was just in Denver last Wednesday at a new production CNC demo as we prepare for additional expansion. Blah, blah, blah....you guys want MX-Tune and please understand that we want to offer it as badly as you!

    How did we get so behind? Well, a big part of that equation was certainly building parts necessary to sell complete shocks. What I thought would be a niche product turned out to be a large animal. As I've mentioned in other post, it detracted from our core business....tuning forks and shocks. Products such as Factory Tuning Systems, Factory Fork Systems, MX-Tune.....etc. That's were all of our focus is now. It's taking some time, but we're definitely back on track.

    Darren
    Darren, perhaps you could explain what you meant in this post then:
    Pushed Monarch Shocks No More?
    I'll quote it here:
    "So, to clear up the confusion.

    First, any Monarch that has been sold by us or serviced by us will continue to be fully supported by PUSH. This includes regular maintenance, additional tuning, warranty service, etc. If you are a previous Monarch customer and need assistance just contact us through email or phone and we'll be happy to help you.

    Second, you have to understand that sometimes things outside of our control limit what we can make available. The large majority of our business relies on product and part supply from the suspension manufacturers.

    Lastly, things like the MX-Tune have been both a significant embarrassment as well as a large loss in income. Two things that business owners never want. Selling complete suspension units proved to be a much more difficult task than we had anticipated and distracted heavily from our core business which is tuning and service. At this time we have decided to make an extremely focused effort back on our core business.....tuning and service. It's not to say that we won't offer possible complete suspension unit sales in the future, but we surely won't be doing it until our core business is sorted, and our tuning line is solid again. "

    You said the MX-tune was a finacial loser right there. Soooooooooooooooo...
    ****

  20. #20
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    Sorry Renny, I could see how that was confusing.

    What I meant was that the embarrassment came from how many times we gave customers a date and then missed the target. I'll take the blame for that one.

    Secondly, the loss of income comment referred to the lack of filling the back orders, not that it wasn't profitable or in demand. It was quite the opposite. Hundreds of customers wanting the product, and us not being able to deliver. When I look at back order reports, to me that's potential loss of income for the company.

    I'm getting more depressed the more I post!

    Darren

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacubaya View Post
    Did you read what I said?

    Nitrogen itself does not make it unserviceable. If you keep the schrader valve, you can fill it up with air, no need for nitrogen. Nitrogen is a bit better than air because it comes dry so it has no water molecules.
    Ah! I hear what you're saying now but when I questioned Craig about that directly he said it would screw up the whole tune! His shocks certainly ride nice but I question the whole nitrogen thing. Would like to hear opinions on this.

    Cheers,

    G
    Last edited by Gman086; 06-12-2012 at 07:33 AM.
    "There's two shuttles, one to the top and one to the hospital" I LOVE this place!!!

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post

    So my question is Push factory tune Vs. Avalanche SSD damper. Both seem to have Pros and Cons and I cant decide.

    Thoughts?
    No experience with the Avalanche offering. I have a Push'd RC (TF Tuned) and it's awesome, great progression through the travel. No more bottom out, no bob, just perfect and better than expected. Very impressed, felt like a totally new frame from the first ride..

    Cheers, K

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by PUSHIND View Post
    Sorry Renny, I could see how that was confusing.

    What I meant was that the embarrassment came from how many times we gave customers a date and then missed the target. I'll take the blame for that one.
    Darren
    Darren,..... this is your achilles heal. C'mon, really, when was the last time you hit a release date within 6 months of when you announced it?
    It's like a c o c k tease. You crank us up, and fail to produce it within a....long time. You'd be better off to say nothing, and announce it the day before you are ready to ship.
    Personally. I follow a different bussiness model; I under promise, and over deliver. And my customers love me for that.
    This is one of the of couple reasons I bailed on my two rockshox monarch orders this spring with you. I lost faith. In you, to deliver.
    ****

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