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Thread: Pike 2014

  1. #2201
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    Quote Originally Posted by xzatx View Post
    thank u for the explanation. good reasoning there.

    so i took my fork apart... i mean the nut, there was 2 spacers installed already by manufacturer. i have 130mm fork
    so i added one, i pressurized it to 75psi, so 3 tokens, 75 psi, 30% sag
    for rebound i put at click #8 from the slow side, so slow all the way then 8 clicks toward speed.

    LSC i turned out all the way counterclockwise and 3 clicks in...

    im gona go ride it and see how it is.

    so LSC, clockwise stiffens it and counterclockwise makes it dive on brakes?
    Clockwise stiffens it up. Best way is to get out and ride. Everyone is going to have their preferred setup but it is all based on some basic setup rules as outlined in great detail by xzatx above. Use someone else's setup as a guide only. They may ride different trails to you and prefer a different feel.

    I upgraded to a Lyrik a year ago and the main difference there is the larger negative spring chamber which counters your positive air chamber. They do feel much more plush. A cheaper way of doing this is buying a Luftkappe from Vorsprung. It is basically a bigger negative chamber that replaces your current air piston. It does limit how many tokens you can use but should make a noticeable diff. I have some on order to fit to a couple of mates forks.

  2. #2202
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    Might help to give definitions the terms people are throwing around.

    - Plushness is literally about using up a lot of travel on a hit. Jump from a height, onto a pile of cotton fluff-filled pillows, and you'll land deep in it, compared to how high the pillows were before you jumped. Or replace a trampoline's jumping surface with spandex, and jump on it and see how deep you go. Feels "plusher" than jumping on the stiff nylon trampoline surface, or jumping onto a rope net instead of pillows.

    - Suppleness is like the difference between duck canvas Dickies pants and light weight brushed high thread count silk pants. The softness having the ability to move freely and conform to the slightest contour changes of the ground... it's hard to get this from suspension, but stiction and friction makes it even worse, like starching the pants. Suppleness is primarily gained through the tires, higher tpi ones offering more suppleness, which generally are flimsier and less durable.

    - Support, I'm not totally sure about, but I see it as simply being anything that absorbs force, to limit and control movement from being too free, and make it come to a soft stop. People seem to believe they want totally free movement over a wide range of wheel travel, with extra support in response to specific sources of unwanted movement like bobbing from pedal mashing and brake dive, and also to not bottom too easily.

    Also, to clear up what the knobs do: the rebound knob affects primarily the LSR. To change HSR, you would alter with the valving inside the Charger damper, which needs to be pulled out and completely disassembled, replacing shims. With more tokens, you should generally go with less LSR than you think is right, as it's much much more susceptible to packing down and becoming harsh on repeated bumps like braking bumps.

    A lot of old bikes embraced plushness, and some still do, but I think more and more are going towards linear suspension for performance reasons. It feels more sporty, as opposed to feeling like you have blown suspension and bushings. People who want comfort, might actually be buying the wrong bikes. They're buying frames with compact dimensions, like a Smart car or Honda Fit, and are expecting high end suspension to make it feel plush like a limo. Might be better to make the vehicle longer, but lower and stiffen up the suspension, with quality high-volume tires, for best of both worlds comfort and handling response.

  3. #2203
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    Quote Originally Posted by xzatx View Post
    that's like doing the oppposite of what i was thinking to do to help me make it plusher. . haha this topic will drive me crazy

    I was planning to go with 3 tokens and lower the PSI to 65. and see if that makes it more plush.
    That's the thing people forget. Tokens are called bottomless tokens as they are used stop your forks bottoming out by steepening the ramp up of pressure in your airspring chamber. It allows you to run lower pressures for sweet plushness without worrying about bottoming out....well at least the first part of the travel will be plush until the steep ramp up of pressure. That's the trade off. You will get better small to medium bump compliance but it will stiffen up at the higher end of travel. I ran a few tokens in my Pike and now Lyrik and have gotten used to the stiffer support at the top.

    A good test is to keep letting air out until your fork bottoms on your favourite trail then add a token or 2 to stop it bottoming. You need to find that bottoming out point or watch where your o'ring is on the staunchion at the end of a run. And keep letting out air until you use most of the travel. Just a rule of thumb I use. Rockshox even mention this in their setup guide. I think it is a video on the product page.

    I have just fitted an MRP volume adjust cartridge to my Lyrik and it has been great so far. It only adjusts volume during fast hits so it is speed sensitive. You get the best of both worlds. Ramped right up on the dial and it feels like 2 tokens on small hits and 4 tokens on bigger hits. Might be something worth considering if your having trouble getting your token setup right.

  4. #2204
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    Xzatx let us know how your experiment goes.

    For what's worth I'm on a hardtail so take my recommendation with a grain of salt. Different people prefer different strokes.

  5. #2205
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    Thank all for the feedback,

    so i just got back from a trail, i did 14 miles, 2000 feet... and the difference is huge now.. my grip on the handle bars was much more comfortable on long rocky descents...
    the fork is indeed MORE PLUSH...

    however, before i was 2mm away from bottoming up, now i have like 17mm.. which goes along the theory of more tokens help in not allowing the fork to bottom out..

    so again my setup is
    198 lbs (my weight)
    bike santa cruz 5010, 130mm travel.
    3 Tokens installed, 75psi, 3 clicks LSC, 8 clicks rebound (from slow to fast), so 8 clicks from turtle figure, 30% sagg.
    the difference was really big and i like it like that.

    I'm not sure i can upgrade to lyrik yet .. i'm still not recovered from the cost of the bike. hehe. maybe next year!. so lyrik is better than fox?

  6. #2206
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    Quote Originally Posted by xzatx View Post
    Thank all for the feedback,

    so i just got back from a trail, i did 14 miles, 2000 feet... and the difference is huge now.. my grip on the handle bars was much more comfortable on long rocky descents...
    the fork is indeed MORE PLUSH...

    however, before i was 2mm away from bottoming up, now i have like 17mm.. which goes along the theory of more tokens help in not allowing the fork to bottom out..

    so again my setup is
    198 lbs (my weight)
    bike santa cruz 5010, 130mm travel.
    3 Tokens installed, 75psi, 3 clicks LSC, 8 clicks rebound (from slow to fast), so 8 clicks from turtle figure, 30% sagg.
    the difference was really big and i like it like that.

    I'm not sure i can upgrade to lyrik yet .. i'm still not recovered from the cost of the bike. hehe. maybe next year!. so lyrik is better than fox?
    Sounds like you found the sweet spot. Around 30% or just below is a good figure for sag. Sounds like you have a bit left for the bigger hits. I don't run Fox anymore but some of my mates like them. I'm sticking to RS as they have all service info and parts easily available which is huge for me as I do all my own servicing. Fox make it too hard. In saying that, I have over 1000km on my Lyrik now without issue so no need for servicing yet. Just about to put a 180mm air shaft in so will service the lowers then.

  7. #2207
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    Thanks! .. yea the pike has been fine with me, i never owned a fox before though, i just hear its nice and plush.

    you are right about RS, lots of youtube support videos.

  8. #2208
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    Surely the RockShox Charger Bleed Kit (00.4318.007.000) is meant to include the adaptor that's required to actually connect to the Charger damper?

    The kit I bought seems to just have a Reverb-style adaptor. Looks nothing like the replacement Charger adaptor (11.4318.010.000) - which I guess I now need to go out and buy...

    Anyone know if my kit was bogus, or if it's just intentionally a pain in the neck?

    Pike 2014-img_20170318_173950.jpg

  9. #2209
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    Weird. 1yr ago this kit has only charger adapter. This year it has both

  10. #2210
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhysjenz View Post
    Surely the RockShox Charger Bleed Kit (00.4318.007.000) is meant to include the adaptor that's required to actually connect to the Charger damper?

    The kit I bought seems to just have a Reverb-style adaptor. Looks nothing like the replacement Charger adaptor (11.4318.010.000) - which I guess I now need to go out and buy...

    Anyone know if my kit was bogus, or if it's just intentionally a pain in the neck?

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I bought my kit a couple of years ago but it did come with the adapter. It looks like the right one on the left in your photo. You def got a reverb one in there too which seems weird as you need 2 syringes to bleed a reverb remote. I bought the brass adapter seperately thinking the kit might not come with one and have never used it. Only difference is the one in the kit is black plastic and may not last as long as the brass one of you use it in a shop.

  11. #2211
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    Thanks for pointing that out Niva! I'm a muppet!

    Didn't look to closely at that black connector, and assumed it was the same as the other black ones.

    Time to have a crack at it then

  12. #2212
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    Quote Originally Posted by xzatx View Post
    Thank all for the feedback,

    so i just got back from a trail, i did 14 miles, 2000 feet... and the difference is huge now.. my grip on the handle bars was much more comfortable on long rocky descents...
    the fork is indeed MORE PLUSH...

    however, before i was 2mm away from bottoming up, now i have like 17mm.. which goes along the theory of more tokens help in not allowing the fork to bottom out..

    so again my setup is
    198 lbs (my weight)
    bike santa cruz 5010, 130mm travel.
    3 Tokens installed, 75psi, 3 clicks LSC, 8 clicks rebound (from slow to fast), so 8 clicks from turtle figure, 30% sagg.
    the difference was really big and i like it like that.

    I'm not sure i can upgrade to lyrik yet .. i'm still not recovered from the cost of the bike. hehe. maybe next year!. so lyrik is better than fox?
    72PSI and you should be there. Definitely don't want to be bottoming frequently and should have a small margin of buffer for mistakes, unexpected drops and the occasional bad line/Boulder collision.

  13. #2213
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    Hopefully my last question for this rebuild: what's the deal with the updated air spring seal head? (RockShox # 11.4018.037.000)

    Is it a semi-mandatory upgrade that improves over the older version, like the rebound seal head? Just wondering if I should bother ordering one in or not.

    Pike 2014-seal-head.jpg

    Cheers!

  14. #2214
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    Dang, they had to keep that annoying tab that makes removing the circlip a pain. Looks like it's lower friction, based on the seal geometry, with a finer lip. New seal actually looks like it was machined (not literally, just precision-wise), while the older one has wavy bits that's even visible with the naked eye in that pic.

  15. #2215
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhysjenz View Post
    Hopefully my last question for this rebuild: what's the deal with the updated air spring seal head? (RockShox # 11.4018.037.000)

    Is it a semi-mandatory upgrade that improves over the older version, like the rebound seal head? Just wondering if I should bother ordering one in or not.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Cheers!
    Not much to see with them on the bench side by side. The oring section sizes are different externally. Can't recall internally. There might be a volume change but you'd need to get the verniers and calculator out to know for sure.

    New topout bumper appears softer, but no objective measurements.
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  16. #2216
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    Which is the better purchase, the 200 hour service kit or the full service kit?

    Need to give both my wife and my Pike new lower seals and an annual clean up. The full service kit appears to include a new charger bladder, the 200 hour kit doesn't. But supposedly SRAM recommend the bladder is changed ~200 hours??
    Rolling on 29", 650b, 8.3" and 23mm

  17. #2217
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    Quote Originally Posted by 6thElement View Post
    Which is the better purchase, the 200 hour service kit or the full service kit?

    Need to give both my wife and my Pike new lower seals and an annual clean up. The full service kit appears to include a new charger bladder, the 200 hour kit doesn't. But supposedly SRAM recommend the bladder is changed ~200 hours??
    I only stock the full service kit. It's more comprehensive and slightly cheaper than the 200hr kit.

    Which makes the 200hr kit a bit bizarre.
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  18. #2218
    It's carbon dontcha know.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    I only stock the full service kit. It's more comprehensive and slightly cheaper than the 200hr kit.

    Which makes the 200hr kit a bit bizarre.
    That's what I couldn't work out, 200hr kit is listed ~20usd more...

    Just wasn't sure if somehow the full kit was missing something that's in the 200hr one.
    Rolling on 29", 650b, 8.3" and 23mm

  19. #2219
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    I changed the travel on my 29" pike and forgot to measure how much stanchion was showing beforehand. Figured it would be a good idea to see if it had worked

    I went from 140mm to 120mm, but there's 130mm stanchion showing.

    Is that normal or did I reassemble it wrong? Suspension maintenance is somewhat new to me still. I assume it is 1cm clearance to not have the upper and lower parts of the fork smash into eachother at full compression?

  20. #2220
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegard View Post
    I changed the travel on my 29" pike and forgot to measure how much stanchion was showing beforehand. Figured it would be a good idea to see if it had worked

    I went from 140mm to 120mm, but there's 130mm stanchion showing.

    Is that normal or did I reassemble it wrong? Suspension maintenance is somewhat new to me still. I assume it is 1cm clearance to not have the upper and lower parts of the fork smash into eachother at full compression?
    From memory I think that sounds normal
    Also if you have put too much grease on the air shaft piston and it is clogging the equalising dimple hole it can take a few cycles of the fork to get the chambers to equalise. Your negative air chamber may not have pressurised yet. If you left anything out of the airspring assembly then you would be out by more than 10mm.

    I edited my earlier response as I got it wrong and though lt you weren't getting full extension.

  21. #2221
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    Thanks, I think I'm allright then I did the zip tie trick you mentioned before your edit aswell, was only a tiny bit of air coming out.

  22. #2222
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    who among you here find yourselves constantly removing/adding a token or 2 depending on where you ride? btw i'm using 140mm 29er and i'm 155# and i keep my sag at 20%

    here's the thing
    - indoor pump track: 2 tokens nearly bottom out specially on 180 turns (~ 15mm left) and i'm not yet doing it hard
    - real world trail: same config most travel i've used is half - yea i don't really ride that hard on real world apparently

    so, aside from switching to an mrp, which i can't justify for my use (yet), anyone had a similar experience? thing is, repeatedly doing token adjustment is quite mundane for a weekend rider (PT on saturday, mountain on sunday)... or i just have to ride harder in the real world? :|
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  23. #2223
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    Do you have have rct3?
    Can you leave 2 tokens and dial in some lsc to help more in pump track so it may not use as much travel?
    Quote Originally Posted by spyghost View Post
    who among you here find yourselves constantly removing/adding a token or 2 depending on where you ride? btw i'm using 140mm 29er and i'm 155# and i keep my sag at 20%

    here's the thing
    - indoor pump track: 2 tokens nearly bottom out specially on 180 turns (~ 15mm left) and i'm not yet doing it hard
    - real world trail: same config most travel i've used is half - yea i don't really ride that hard on real world apparently

    so, aside from switching to an mrp, which i can't justify for my use (yet), anyone had a similar experience? thing is, repeatedly doing token adjustment is quite mundane for a weekend rider (PT on saturday, mountain on sunday)... or i just have to ride harder in the real world? :|

  24. #2224
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    Quote Originally Posted by lucifuge View Post
    Do you have have rct3?
    Can you leave 2 tokens and dial in some lsc to help more in pump track so it may not use as much travel?
    yep, rct3 and always open. i haven't played with adding lsc, but won't that be for small bump compliance and that rollers and berms are classified as high speed?
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  25. #2225
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    It will make small bump degrade yes, but depending upon how much you dial in it may not be noticeable. Rollers and berms are LOW speed events. exactly what you want LSC for. (HSC is for square hits ...i.e. not issues your are facing)

    I would think LSC would be the magic answer to your problem. Might need minimum of 4-7 clicks from open for it be of benefit.

    Quote Originally Posted by spyghost View Post
    yep, rct3 and always open. i haven't played with adding lsc, but won't that be for small bump compliance and that rollers and berms are classified as high speed?
    Last edited by lucifuge; 04-06-2017 at 06:40 PM.

  26. #2226
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    Quote Originally Posted by spyghost View Post
    yep, rct3 and always open. i haven't played with adding lsc, but won't that be for small bump compliance and that rollers and berms are classified as high speed?
    What Lucifuge said. I run 4-5 click of LSC from fully open and that provides support. The trouble with pump tracks is the g-outs. Some more HSC or LSC will keep you higher up in the travel so you can take the bigger hits.

    A great new tool is a Shockwiz. I have had my ne since August last year and they are great at identifying problems with shock performance. I got one cheap as I backed the project as a Kickstarter.

    Split the cost with some mates and share it around. It will definitely make a difference for you. You always need to get your air pressure right with Pike/Lyrik. I run 27% sag and find it a sweetspot. You then ramp HSC and LSC depending on terrain. Also don't forget rebound. It is one of the most overlooked adjustments. If you slow your rebound down I think you will use more of your travel and gain traction in the real world trails.

  27. #2227
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    Quote Originally Posted by spyghost View Post
    who among you here find yourselves constantly removing/adding a token or 2 depending on where you ride? btw i'm using 140mm 29er and i'm 155# and i keep my sag at 20%

    here's the thing
    - indoor pump track: 2 tokens nearly bottom out specially on 180 turns (~ 15mm left) and i'm not yet doing it hard
    - real world trail: same config most travel i've used is half - yea i don't really ride that hard on real world apparently

    so, aside from switching to an mrp, which i can't justify for my use (yet), anyone had a similar experience? thing is, repeatedly doing token adjustment is quite mundane for a weekend rider (PT on saturday, mountain on sunday)... or i just have to ride harder in the real world? :|
    Sag at 20% seems much too firm. I run a 130 Pike at 25-30% is find it pretty supple and not too divey in technical rocky stuff. I weigh 200ish fwiw. 3-4 clicks lsc seems to help too

  28. #2228
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    Quote Originally Posted by spyghost View Post
    yep, rct3 and always open. i haven't played with adding lsc, but won't that be for small bump compliance and that rollers and berms are classified as high speed?
    Pump tracks are low speed compression unless you screw up the rhythm and nosedive the front wheel into the face of a roller. Crank that low speed compression dial to full firm for pump tracks, it keeps the fork higher in its travel, allows you to push into the rollers & berms for better pumping, and you don't need small bump compliance anyway since the tracks are nice & smooth. When I ride pump tracks on my bike, I either lock out the fork or run it 1-2 clicks at most from full firm.

  29. #2229
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    in fact, why not just leave it trail mode LOL

  30. #2230
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    in my session yesterday, this was my setting:

    - 3 tokens (came from 2)
    - lsc full
    - rebound midway (adding 1 more click to fast makes me bouncy - but this could just be my timing off)
    - sag a bit less than 30% mark at 55 PSI (i'm 150#)

    i'm still nearly bottoming out with around 15mm to spare before bottoming out. from a third person POV, i was losing the travel on the 180 turns and not on the rollers. at this setup i already feel pump in my upper back.

    next experiment would be removing 1 token (back to 2), and raise my rebound and modify my timing a bit. do you think this is a good idea or just install all tokens (4) ?
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  31. #2231
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    What exact pike is it?
    Quote Originally Posted by spyghost View Post
    in my session yesterday, this was my setting:

    - 3 tokens (came from 2)
    - lsc full
    - rebound midway (adding 1 more click to fast makes me bouncy - but this could just be my timing off)
    - sag a bit less than 30% mark at 55 PSI (i'm 150#)

    i'm still nearly bottoming out with around 15mm to spare before bottoming out. from a third person POV, i was losing the travel on the 180 turns and not on the rollers. at this setup i already feel pump in my upper back.

    next experiment would be removing 1 token (back to 2), and raise my rebound and modify my timing a bit. do you think this is a good idea or just install all tokens (4) ?

  32. #2232
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    Quote Originally Posted by lucifuge View Post
    What exact pike is it?
    29er 140 solo rct3 non-boost
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  33. #2233
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    Can't see why would need any tokens at your weight. I would only use minimum.
    Also pike performs better at around 20 to 22 psi. This will mean you'll hardly need any lsc and still not bottom out. Up to you.
    Quote Originally Posted by spyghost View Post
    29er 140 solo rct3 non-boost

  34. #2234
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    Quote Originally Posted by spyghost View Post
    in my session yesterday, this was my setting:

    - 3 tokens (came from 2)
    - lsc full
    - rebound midway (adding 1 more click to fast makes me bouncy - but this could just be my timing off)
    - sag a bit less than 30% mark at 55 PSI (i'm 150#)

    i'm still nearly bottoming out with around 15mm to spare before bottoming out. from a third person POV, i was losing the travel on the 180 turns and not on the rollers. at this setup i already feel pump in my upper back.

    next experiment would be removing 1 token (back to 2), and raise my rebound and modify my timing a bit. do you think this is a good idea or just install all tokens (4) ?
    Why are you running so much sag?

  35. #2235
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    imo pike is overdamper for such a light people like 160lbs and below. I installed luftkappe, take out one shim from compression stack and used rs 2,5wt oil. It fells much better now.

  36. #2236
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    Quote Originally Posted by nikon255 View Post
    imo pike is overdamper for such a light people like 160lbs and below. I installed luftkappe, take out one shim from compression stack and used rs 2,5wt oil. It fells much better now.
    This is the exact same as I have observed as I'm about 160lbs. I have been tuning all over the place with this thing and finally dropped the oil weight down this past weekend, but haven't tried the luftkappe or shimming change yet.

    It seems marginally better, but I still feel as though I am running a bit softer than I would prefer to keep the harshness in check and the shim change sounds like a good next move since the weight does not have so much impact on this.

    I have not looked inside of the damper assembly, but did you simply remove the last shim and tighten down the piston bolt, or add a clamp shim in its place?

  37. #2237
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    i didnt want to waste money experimenting, i sold my pike friday and got a new fox fork.

    BTW i'm 190 lbs and pike was just too stifff on the lightest settings.

    In my opinion a fork should be very plush in plush settings and you could make it stiff if you chose so, Pike is SUPER STIFF in the plush'est settings and a rock in the firm settings

  38. #2238
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    Quote Originally Posted by danlorek View Post
    This is the exact same as I have observed as I'm about 160lbs. I have been tuning all over the place with this thing and finally dropped the oil weight down this past weekend, but haven't tried the luftkappe or shimming change yet.


    It seems marginally better, but I still feel as though I am running a bit softer than I would prefer to keep the harshness in check and the shim change sounds like a good next move since the weight does not have so much impact on this.


    I have not looked inside of the damper assembly, but did you simply remove the last shim and tighten down the piston bolt, or add a clamp shim in its place?

    yeah, I had to remove it. Its so thin that you dont have to replace it with clamp shim. There's also thinner oil than all - Red Line Like Water, but its hard to find in Poland.

  39. #2239
    mtbr member
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    Quote Originally Posted by xzatx View Post
    i didnt want to waste money experimenting, i sold my pike friday and got a new fox fork.

    BTW i'm 190 lbs and pike was just too stifff on the lightest settings.

    In my opinion a fork should be very plush in plush settings and you could make it stiff if you chose so, Pike is SUPER STIFF in the plush'est settings and a rock in the firm settings
    I sold my Pike too for the same reason and bought a Marzocchi.
    Riding Washington State singletrack since 1986

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