Interestingly CC recommends 17mm of sag for 2014 Solos and 14mm of sag for 2013 ones! I think someone has hit the wrong key there and they mean 14mm for both.
Those of you who have received your shock, did you get volume spacers in the box?
Yes. It is a blue strip that has little squares so you can cut off what is needed.
Originally Posted by Rick Draper
Interestingly CC recommends 17mm of sag for 2014 Solos and 14mm of sag for 2013 ones! I think someone has hit the wrong key there and they mean 14mm for both.
17 is for the Bronson so yes, it's not correct. 12 to 15 mm is what SC recommends for the Solo.
Picked up the DBinline tonight and installed. To get approx. 15mm sag I had to run 195psi. The setup guide advised as a starting point of body weight (190lbs) - 20 for starting air pressure. Left the stock/base tune as it was.
FWIW the back alley bounce test felt pretty good. Perhaps a little too quick on the rebound, but not certain if that is HSR or LSR that would be required to be increased to slow down the parking lot bounce rebound.
picked up the dbinline tonight and installed. To get approx. 15mm sag i had to run 195psi. The setup guide advised as a starting point of body weight (190lbs) - 20 for starting air pressure. Left the stock/base tune as it was.
Fwiw the back alley bounce test felt pretty good. Perhaps a little too quick on the rebound, but not certain if that is hsr or lsr that would be required to be increased to slow down the parking lot bounce rebound.
I had originally thought LSR as well, but after reading the field manual it implies that it is more in keeping with the LSC in controlling rider input (ie dive on a fork from braking) as compared to reacting to a landing. From what I can understand it is the speed of which the shaft is moving and not the speed of the bike. Either way I will try out one change at a time until I can isolate it and adjust it to my liking. Thanks
If its rebounding too fast in a parking lot bounce test, it's LSR. You wont be able to compress it fast enough for HSR to come into play.
Originally Posted by rideitall
I had originally thought LSR as well, but after reading the field manual it implies that it is more in keeping with the LSC in controlling rider input (ie dive on a fork from braking) as compared to reacting to a landing. From what I can understand it is the speed of which the shaft is moving and not the speed of the bike. Either way I will try out one change at a time until I can isolate it and adjust it to my liking. Thanks
If its rebounding too fast in a parking lot bounce test, it's LSR. You wont be able to compress it fast enough for HSR to come into play.
HSR is dependent on the shaft velocity during extension, not compression. In the parking lot if you bounce the bike around and you use plenty of travel, then HSR is coming into play.
HSR is dependent on the shaft velocity during extension, not compression. In the parking lot if you bounce the bike around and you use plenty of travel, then HSR is coming into play.
Agreed. - Caution long post below ...
Just back from first ride. This shock is good. Started at about 190psi and the base tune
HSC - 2 turns
LSC - 7 clicks
HSR - 2 turns
LSR - 10 clicks
I did add a little LSR, couldn't feel the clicks but added 1/2 turn. Was feeling a little too much pop for coming out of compression. From there I still felt the back was still a little soft and used the CS made if firmer but still a little off.
Added air pressure up to 200 psi, still likely getting a like 15mm - 18mm sag, but felt pretty firm. Rode for a while and felt like too much damping. Dropped LSC 1/4 turn (1 3/4 total) and dropped LSR 3/4 turn (or also 1 3/4). Added a little better than 1/2 turn HSR again, hard to feel the clicks.
This felt pretty dialed. Tried partially engaging the CS during technical climbs and short descents and for the most part left it open. The shock seemed to nicely sit in its travel. The o-ring got to within about 3/8" from the end, but the ride didn't have any real drops or harsh compressions, so I think I am pretty close.
Will have to double check dial position when I get some time, but for a first attempt at setting this thing up I am quite happy in the performance and the extra traction this provided over the Float CTD Evo. Conditions were dry and a fair bit of loose dusty conditions so the impact of the shock was noticeable in keeping the rear tire in contact with the ground, but still have a good amount of pop and didn't feel sluggish.
The really good news, at least for my wallet, is that without having to worry about the back of the bike, the performance of my Factory Talas 34 was not terrible. I am going to keep it around a while longer as I fine tune the DBinline.
I picked up my Inline from Universal Cycles as well. Went on my Banshee Spitfire V2. Two rides on the factory tune @ 170psi. so far I really like it. The whole bike is brand new so still trying to get comfortable with the bike. Probably going to keep the tune where it's at for right now.
My Cane Creek 'DBinline' arrived today and only just installed to my Specialized Enduro Expert 29" M 2014. Now I have to wait for the weekend and test it out.
The shock was packaged well and installation was no big issue as everything fitted ok. Have not adjust any settings as yet, they are preset for Specialized Enduro. The tuning field guide supplied is thorough, only 24 pages.
CC recommend charging 20Psi less your weight (kitted up) and I got 20mm slag, the supplied preset card recommends 17mm. The shock was precharged to 100Psi.
I plan on getting the inline for my stumpy. However I might wait since winter is just around the corner in my nick of the woods. I would like to hear some detailed reviews in comparison to fox.
Okay, so it's about a week later since I last asked; where are the reviews? I thought hundreds of folks were waiting in line with pre-orders waiting to get this shock? Perhaps some of you are:
Waiting to get your shock?
Waiting untill you get 100 hours of riding time before posting your comprehensive review?
Still tweaking all your adjustments because you still have not found settings that satisfy you?
Or?
Speak up please!
Okay, so it's about a week later since I last asked; where are the reviews? I thought hundreds of folks were waiting in line with pre-orders waiting to get this shock? Perhaps some of you are:
Waiting to get your shock?
Waiting untill you get 100 hours of riding time before posting your comprehensive review?
Still tweaking all your adjustments because you still have not found settings that satisfy you?
Or?
Speak up please!
I should have mine tomorrow, planning on getting it mounted up and heading to the trails right after work. I've already got a loop planned out for riding/tuning the shock. Here are my details:
2013 SC Tallboy LTc
Fox Float CTDk w/ TA
My biggest gripe with the Float is lack of low speed compression, I can feel the rear sus of the bike moving when I don't think it should be. I'm really looking forward to being able to dial in the shock how I expect it to feel. I'm crossing my fingers that the Inline will perform beyond my expectations.
I did post a review up on mine at least for the one ride I got in before heading out for vacation. My trail bike is not with me so I won't get any more rides in until back home.
2015 SC 5010
I weight 175 pounds ride ready and sag is at 13 to 14mm.
HSC 2
LSC 8
HSR 2
LSR 10
I like the back end to feel the bumps but still be controlled. I'm not a big fan of the soft and squishy Cadillac feeling. With this base tune, I have yet to feel the seat slap my butt and at the same time, it feels very "planted" to the ground. I would have to say that that is the thing I noticed the most. I felt like it was almost always in contact with the ground even on the never ending rocky rooty XC trails in my area.
For my liking, i am very pleased with it and it took very little tweaking. Now if someone swapped my shock for something different that was correctly tuned, I probably couldn't notice a difference. That being said, I like the fact that you CAN get the tune correct just by tweaking it. You don't have to send it out to have it "Push'd" to get it in your personal sweet spot. And by buying the CC shock, I was supporting a relatively small US company and I was willing to pay more for that. But I also needed a new shock as this was a warranty replacement frame that didn't come with a shock and my old one wouldn't fit.
So.. Do I need new bushings when changing out my Fox Float CTD for this? And if so, can I use the ones for DBAir? Having a hard time finding any for DBInline...
BXCc how shock feel when climbing steep rocky sections on the trail? I find my fox to be harsh while climbing and I cant tune it out without my stumpy bobbing too much up steep rocky terrain.
So.. Do I need new bushings when changing out my Fox Float CTD for this? And if so, can I use the ones for DBAir? Having a hard time finding any for DBInline...
I used the bushings from my Fox RP23 in my Inline if that helps. You will have to get the factory bushings pushed out first though. If you are buying direct from CC, tell them what bike it's going on and they will supply the correct bushings.
Originally Posted by stumpynerd
BXCc how shock feel when climbing steep rocky sections on the trail? I find my fox to be harsh while climbing and I cant tune it out without my stumpy bobbing too much up steep rocky terrain.
Honestly, i didn't notice any bobbing or harshness. I really didn't notice the shock at all which is a good thing I suppose. The CS did stiffen it up but not to where it felt like it was rigid. But the only time I was paying attention to it was climbing a 75 yard long loose gravel / tennis ball size rocky road. Traction was great and it still felt like a full suspension bike.
Ok guys, I know some of you are drooling for feedback. I haven't completely dialed in the shock yet (damn 8-6 work hours!) but I'm more than satisfied with it. The shock has cured many of bad characteristics of the Fox Float and also improved areas that I didn't think were a problem. The ability to dial in (or out) damping exactly how I feel I need to alter a characteristic of the bike cannot be underestimated. Very impressed so far, BUY THIS SHOCK (from Biker Bob too, great price)!
Ok guys, I know some of you are drooling for feedback. I haven't completely dialed in the shock yet (damn 8-6 work hours!) but I'm more than satisfied with it. The shock has cured many of bad characteristics of the Fox Float and also improved areas that I didn't think were a problem. The ability to dial in (or out) damping exactly how I feel I need to alter a characteristic of the bike cannot be underestimated. Very impressed so far, BUY THIS SHOCK (from Biker Bob too, great price)!
Yes, as you predicted, your response is not a comprehensive review or feedback.
What is your evaulation of the high speed circuits? Have you had any spiking, or hydrolocking at high shaft speeds? How many different trails have to run to evaulate the high speed circuit performance of this shock? These are the past shortcomings of the Cane Creek shocks, that people are wondering about. Screaming, "buy it!" is not exactly a proper performance review.
Yes, as you predicted, your response is not a comprehensive review or feedback.
What is your evaulation of the high speed circuits? Have you had any spiking, or hydrolocking at high shaft speeds? How many different trails have to run to evaulate the high speed circuit performance of this shock? These are the past shortcomings of the Cane Creek shocks, that people are wondering about. Screaming, "buy it!" is not exactly a proper performance review.
He's under no obligation to give you a review at all. If you need more of a review, go buy the shock and review it for yourself. Shocks don't come any better then the CC shocks. So, it's not like you're going to find anything better. Buy it, ride it and see how long the silly grin lasts on your face.
Seriously? The first version of the DB had a way-too-heavy washer over the "piston" and it was claimed that the poppet valves would do everything and the oil would not flow through the piston, but it turns out this wasn't really optimal and a more standard "shim stack" setup was added over it, this is where those high-speed characteristics come into play. The original claim was false. You can tune the preload on the springs that control the valves and alter the characteristics obviously, but not the spring force it'self, which is a different parameter. It would most likely perform better if that internal shim-stack was tuned to the rider's weight/style/bike. Plenty of people have had failures and have had to ship them back. It's a decent shock, but it's by no means some end-all. The thing that really gets my attention is the high speed performance, several people are reporting it to be poor (spiking, etc) over several years.
"It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth
I can only compare it directly against the stock Float CTD it replaced. Even without fully getting it dialed it outperforms the CTD - night and day difference.
Over the years I have run lots of different shocks on a number of different bikes and have a good feel for what works for me. The Monarch RC3 plus had moments but had a very narrow window for the right setup, or throw a little too much trail at it and it pushed back in a not so favourable way.
I go back to the Vector HLR Air as the only shock that felt as controlled. Beyond the HSC and LSC it had rebound (LSC I believe), but also had a piggyback where the air pressure could be adjusted along with the size of the piggyback chamber. It also had a sizeable air can so it was able to provide quite a plush ride that then could be setup to react as required by the user.
I think the DBinline will provide that with the convenience of climb switch to easily on the fly tweak the setup. For me the key will be to get the open tune for descents and then possibly use the CS for altering, if required, the climbing feel.
Again, I need to get some more time on the shock with familiar run under my belt, not to mention any break-in time for the shock.
Again, it might not be the bees-knees for everyone but it beats the FOX CTD for me.
Seriously? The first version of the DB had a way-too-heavy washer over the "piston" and it was claimed that the poppet valves would do everything and the oil would not flow through the piston, but it turns out this wasn't really optimal and a more standard "shim stack" setup was added over it, this is where those high-speed characteristics come into play. The original claim was false. You can tune the preload on the springs that control the valves and alter the characteristics obviously, but not the spring force it'self, which is a different parameter. It would most likely perform better if that internal shim-stack was tuned to the rider's weight/style/bike. Plenty of people have had failures and have had to ship them back. It's a decent shock, but it's by no means some end-all. The thing that really gets my attention is the high speed performance, several people are reporting it to be poor (spiking, etc) over several years.
Your second photo shows a closeup of the original piston assembly for a coil shock. They have never used this assembly on an air shock.
The shock is adjustable to a point that its possible to dial in bad settings as well. On another note, the majority of the issues have been related to air volume and the transfer between the air cans on early shocks. This was solved by a different inner air can.
Since the piston acts more as a plunger, "tuning" the shim stack makes very little difference. It justs changes the range of the adjusters, which already cover wide open to closed down. The only "tuning" parameters are spring rate, volume of air, and adjuster setting.
Shawn, you are correct, no one is obligated to provide me with a review. May I remind you that this website is called MTB Review? And that one of the purposes of the manufacturers forums and the components forums is the sharing of information? Not everyone can afford to purchase every item that they have interest in.
Since the piston acts more as a plunger, "tuning" the shim stack makes very little difference.
Then why is it there? It's clearly there in the photo. I'll submit that CCs original hype and theory wasn't quite correct, the shock does need to use it during some high-speed/displacement events, and as such, it's a parameter that should be tuned, along with poppet valve spring force (not spring preload). Like you said. the rebound and compression shim stacks affect the range of the shock, just like how you tune almost every other shock, except it's not as dramatic of an effect obviously.
"It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth
...The thing that really gets my attention is the high speed performance, several people are reporting it to be poor (spiking, etc) over several years.
that's where i had my issues, and also why i ultimately ditched by CCDB Air CS. i've had the issue explained to me by a couple of different suspension gurus, and the issue seems to be that the CCDB's reliance on blowoff valves rather than a traditional shimmed setup results in some tendencies toward hydraulic lock in high speed events, particularly on bikes with rising rate suspension designs. that being said, i don't doubt that the inline is a fantastic shock, i just think that it is an item that will tend to work better on bikes with generally linear spring curves.
that's where i had my issues, and also why i ultimately ditched by CCDB Air CS. i've had the issue explained to me by a couple of different suspension gurus, and the issue seems to be that the CCDB's reliance on blowoff valves rather than a traditional shimmed setup results in some tendencies toward hydraulic lock in high speed events, particularly on bikes with rising rate suspension designs. that being said, i don't doubt that the inline is a fantastic shock, i just think that it is an item that will tend to work better on bikes with generally linear spring curves.
Funny, the CCDB's have typically sucked on very linear frames because there's no progressiveness to the inherent springrate of the shock, or any position sensitivity to the damping. The only frames I've found where they don't suck have been progressive frames.
Their HS circuits have always been a weak point in the past. The garbage about the HS poppet being the only source of high speed modulation is...well, garbage. That single poppet valve can't manage the 3 or 4 pressure zones within the shock, and it's silly to think that it can.
That said, it's probably fine for a trail bike. I just ran into dead-ends with the HSC adjuster time after time with the coil shock on various DH bikes.
For the Inline, I think it's important to compare it to others in the same general market segment.
Coming from a Fox Float CTD on my Intense Carbine 29, the Inline blows it out of the water. WAY more control. WAY better recovery. To get the Fox to not bounce, took a TON of rebound damping, and then the shock would pack down over successive rock hits. With the Inline, I'm plowing through a rock garden without bounce and the bike immediately recovers for the jumps to come. The Fox you could either be recovered and bouncing or semi controlled and packed down.
Also important to note, that with the Float on Trail or Climb, the bike got extra bouncy. Let's say it's a very XC like Enduro stage with tons of pedaling. With the Fox I lose even more control in Climb mode. The rear end is bouncy. With the Inline the rear tracks over the terrain, the bike doesn't bounce off of roots, but at the same time, my pedaling forces seem to be controlled.
Now I've never tried this bike with VPP and something like a Monarch Plus or Fox Float X, so I can't compare there, but compared to the inline Fox Float CTD, it's not even in the same ballpark.
I weigh 147lbs, with gear and a full pack... I achieved my desired sag (approx 12-14mm) at 140psi.
After one ride of tweaking, I am feeling pretty good about, but not fully set on:
Then why is it there? It's clearly there in the photo. I'll submit that CCs original hype and theory wasn't quite correct, the shock does need to use it during some high-speed/displacement events, and as such, it's a parameter that should be tuned, along with poppet valve spring force (not spring preload). Like you said. the rebound and compression shim stacks affect the range of the shock, just like how you tune almost every other shock, except it's not as dramatic of an effect obviously.
There are not separate rebound and compression shim stacks on the DB air piston. Just one pyramid stack behind the piston. Changing this arrangement would simply make the adjusters ineffective at maintaining a useful range for 99% of all bicycles. The thickness of that stack was determined to allow the adjusters to control the damping in a useful range.
Using the adjusters correctly accomplishes the same thing that other shocks do at the shim stack. The idea is allow tuning without opening the damper. You could never get an inline fox shock to do this because there are not independent channels for the oil, so the adjustments can not be independent.
The poppet valve spring force and size of the oil ports are different on different CCDB shocks. Its dependent on length and stroke. The air shock gets a lighter compression spring and a larger oil port for compression because of the progressive nature of an air spring. The longest of the coil shocks also gets a different compression assembly.
Early shocks were having trouble transferring air between the cans, creating a spring rate that was too progressive and led to spiking. This didn't have anything to do with the damper.
Remember, since the piston is just a plunger, any change to that shim stack would affect both rebound and compression, because it is forcing oil through both circuits. There are not a lot of situations where you would want to affect the same change to both circuits, so this is not considered a tuning parameter for the damper.
Marcus, can you explain why there is a shim stack only on the compression side of the piston? Is the HSR poppet sufficient enough to provide rapid recovery say, when riding through a rock garden at high speed? I don't know why CC shims one side, but not the other.
Makes sense since rebound force can only be as strong as the spring force so cc can design the hsr to be sufficiently fast. You don't want crazy fast rebound anyways. A fast square edge hit is going to need a lot of oil flow to not spike, hence the shim stack.
I'm curious to know what the force curve looks like for poppet vs shim
Funny, the CCDB's have typically sucked on very linear frames because there's no progressiveness to the inherent springrate of the shock, or any position sensitivity to the damping. The only frames I've found where they don't suck have been progressive frames.
yeah i may be misunderstanding or miscommunicating (likely both) the advice i was given...i think it has more to do with the "smoothness" of the leverage curve. Sure, you can make a CCDB Air progressive by dropping volume spacers in it, but I think the HSC spiking comes from relatively small oil ports in a very complex system that are more susceptible to hydraulic lock.
Marcus, can you explain why there is a shim stack only on the compression side of the piston? Is the HSR poppet sufficient enough to provide rapid recovery say, when riding through a rock garden at high speed? I don't know why CC shims one side, but not the other.
Sure that's the compression side? It's at the end of the shaft it seems and would "blow off" when pulled out of the shock (rebound?)???
The article implied the shock in the pic, ccdb coil I think, had a stack on both sides, just that the far side can't be seen?
"It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth
Marcus, can you explain why there is a shim stack only on the compression side of the piston? Is the HSR poppet sufficient enough to provide rapid recovery say, when riding through a rock garden at high speed? I don't know why CC shims one side, but not the other.
For the record, this is relevant ONLY to the CCDB Air, not the coil version. The coil version has a rebound shim stack on the main piston (as shown in the photos above), the air version does not.
The reason the air sprung version doesn't have a rebound shim stack is because of the progressive spring curve. By forcing more oil through the rebound adjusters (instead of allowing some through the shim stack) at high velocities, you can essentially put a ceiling on the maximum rebound speed that the shock can achieve. This is beneficial in terms of control towards the bottom of the stroke where the progressive spring generates disproportionately higher forces than the mid-stroke. Given the DB dampers' tendency to have very digressive rebound damping curves as it is (relatively low HSR rates) this is more necessary than on dampers that typically run linear (Fox/RS) or progressive (Marz, some BOS tunes) rebound curves.
Almost everything Marcus has said is correct, with the exception of his comment regarding reshimming the main piston affecting both compression and rebound - obviously revalving one side of the piston will only affect one direction of the stroke.
Its a twin tube shock. The piston doesn't have to flow oil during reb.
Even so, it still follows the laws of which way oil has to flow, unless you think it's going to somehow be flowing in reverse. Do you realize which way the oil flows through a pyramid stack?
"It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth
I've just been for a short ride today (12K's) before the pending rain for late today and tomorrow.
I found also I increased my air charge pressure from 120Psi to 140Psi made no difference in sag, still about 25mm. I weigh about 78Kg kitted up. (CC recommend 20Psi less your weight on set up).
My ride was my usual haunt/fire trail that I use regularly on the weekends and also good to compare between my original Fox Float CTD shock that was fitted to my 2014 Specialized Enduro Expert 29".
Ok, in comparison to the Fox, the DBinline shock (with original supplied settings) is an improvement and a more smooth ride that was noticeable and had no issues.
The CS switch is located the shock piston, thus lower than a Fox Float CTD, as I'm new to this shock, I found I was actually trying to locate the CS but finding the air connection(?) whilst riding along. Eventually by the end of my ride I was confidant of it's location.
What I did find with the DBinline, was I only had to use the CS switch only on the climbs, where as the Fox Float CTD I was changing the switch for every climb Trail Descent. So less hassle and one thing less to worry about.
I still could climb as before, but this depends on the available traction on the fire trail (sand and rocky), which during the week had rained.
I could reach some the top of my climbs but as usual in some places I still had to get off and walk (nothing new to comment about).
Descents were good and whilst out of the saddle you could feel the shock movement plush on the big sharp hits (mainly rocks and small drop offs with rough terrain of the weathered fire trail. The shock was supple to small hits whilst in the sitting on the saddle.
As the 2015 Spec web site now show's the CC DBinline fitted to the Elite, Expert, S-Works, leaving the Float Flat CTD now left to the Comp.
Ok, I know I'm just a weekend hack, but there are a lot more people who will provide a more precise or more technical comments in reviews later on in regards about the Cane Creek DBinline shock.
The questions you could ask, if there was a blindfold test to compare the differences of CC to the FOX on a ride, would you be able to pick the shock. In my short ride, I'm happy to say yes.
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Originally Posted by whoodie
