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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by flyag1
    I am interested to know if you could push the rod all the way into the cartridge when you had it out? If you could then everything is ok... no need to drop oil!

    Also, did you let all the air out of the left side before you tried to compress? It is not easy to compress... need to ride into a curb to hit bottom:^)

    Do you have ATA?

    If not, you have a spring and air preload on the opposite side. Just undo the other top cap of the fork, remove the spring and set/check the oil hieght. Sounds like you might have a 140mm fork.
    Ride Your Bike!

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by flyag1
    I am interested to know if you could push the rod all the way into the cartridge when you had it out? If you could then everything is ok... no need to drop oil!

    Also, did you let all the air out of the left side before you tried to compress? It is not easy to compress... need to ride into a curb to hit bottom:^)
    Yes, I could easily push the rod all the way in. Glad I don't have to fiddle with the cartidge - at least I know it's safe to ride and not going to damage it now. It was worth the hassle of removing just to find this out.

    I did let all the air out before compressing. I've only had air forks before so wasn't sure how easily I should be able to compress fully. If it takes more than my bodyweight to fully compress then that'll be why and I can live with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marzocchi Tech Department
    Do you have ATA?

    If not, you have a spring and air preload on the opposite side. Just undo the other top cap of the fork, remove the spring and set/check the oil hieght. Sounds like you might have a 140mm fork.
    No, I don't have ATA. I'm happy to leave it as it is until its due a service, now that I know that riding isn't going to damage it in any way. I don't (or shouldn't!) have 140mm, it's the 160mm OEM version that's stock on the Specialized SX Trail 2008.

    Thanks all for your help

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marzocchi Tech Department
    Here's what can be done. I did it and like it too but you loose the lock-out and turn it into a ripping performance setting. You will need 3 shims @ 18mm x 0.15mm thick with an 8mm ID hole. You will also need 3 washers 11mm OD by 11 ID. They need to be about 1mm thick.... Warning, if you break it you will pay for a new one. Have fun, be careful.

    ....and I call this a day off....
    Complete with shim measurements! You rock!

    Thanks so much for taking time out of your day to help us with such detailed info. We are just looking to make a good fork great. Your help is greatly appreciated!

    Now I gotta get dirty.

    P

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marzocchi Tech Department
    You need to remove the TST2 cartridge from the fork. Make sure the lock-out is in the open position. Then loosen the nut on the bottom of the cartridge and compress it completely. Do this with it upside down. If it is over filled some oil will come out. You can then retighten the endcap and reinstall it in the fork with 30cc's of oil in the stanchion for lubrication. Make sure everything is tight. Game on.
    Procedure for AM2 SL is probably the same, what about the oil level, also 30cc's (SAE 7,5?)? I found out today that also my fork probably has too much oil, I can get only 140mm of travel, but I let some air still in the fork (left ATA side). Is it OK too let out all the air and try to compress the fork, or there should always be some air in?

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snakes
    Procedure for AM2 SL is probably the same, what about the oil level, also 30cc's (SAE 7,5?)? I found out today that also my fork probably has too much oil, I can get only 140mm of travel, but I let some air still in the fork (left ATA side). Is it OK too let out all the air and try to compress the fork, or there should always be some air in?
    I did exactly that a couple of hours ago. Let all the air out, turned the bike upside down, removed the cap at the bottom of the left leg, fully compressed and let the excess oil out. All Marzocchi oil is 7.5wt.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marzocchi Tech Department

    You can now install the 3x18x0.15 shims and 3x11x 1mm washers. Apply thread lock and reinstall the piston group on the shaft.
    A few quick questions to clarify this procedure:

    how do I install the shims/washers? Are they staggered like shim- washer-shim-washer or shim-shim washer-washer?

    Also, which do you start with? Should the shim or washer be adjacent to the compression ports?

    Finally, where do I buy these washers and shims? I don't want to tear the fork down until I have all the right parts?

    Thanks for all the help!

    Tom

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by terribletom
    A few quick questions to clarify this procedure:

    how do I install the shims/washers? Are they staggered like shim- washer-shim-washer or shim-shim washer-washer?

    Also, which do you start with? Should the shim or washer be adjacent to the compression ports?

    Finally, where do I buy these washers and shims? I don't want to tear the fork down until I have all the right parts?

    Thanks for all the help!

    Tom
    All is answered here:

    Marzocchi 55 TST2 conversion to shim damping: step by step

    P

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp
    I also don't understand Marzocchi's reasoning behind the stiff blowoffs. The one on the TST5 is a heavy, thick shim preloaded with a stiff spring.
    Mainly they did it so we can sit here and reminis about the good old days of free-flowing compression valves, such as this HSCV one that I dug out of the bottom of a cart that I sawed in half. The "piston" that was attached to the shaft on an HSCV cartridge controlled the low-speed rebound-bleed, while this piston at the bottom controlled the compression. It was a stationary piston, but with the compression action of the fork and the piston above, fluid was forced in and out of it, which is why there were oil ports on the outside of the HSCV cart at the bottom.

    Now, the HSCV was a pretty simple and no-frills damper compared to what you'd find in in an avalanche shock, or even a current fox and RS fork, but it worked pretty well.

    Marzcocchi: Go take apart a fox damper...then get a clue!
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    Last edited by Jayem; 06-01-2008 at 11:25 AM.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by arctic303

    [edit] - fiddled about a bit with the cartridge extending it and then compressing and the TST is working again. I did notice that even without the cartidge installed, I could only compress the fork to 140mm travel so it's obviously not the TST anyway. Maybe this is normal, perhaps the spring is just too stiff? Tried putting my whole weight on the front wheel but can't get that last 20mm. Still, it's better than it was half hour ago.
    Yo dog, I read your thread with interest since I was having the same issue with my OEM 55 tst2 160mm that came on my '08 kona coilair. I also could not compress with the cart removed here's what the deal is: while compressing down continue to let air out of the left leg, push-bleed, push down further-bleed more. If you do this you will eventually get that last 20mm. This to me means this thing is real progressive toward the end of the stroke in the left leg with regards to air, it's probably this way to prevent harsh bottoming. I have yet to remove some oil from the left leg since I dont have the tool to take off the cap but that might help depending if it's been overfilled. I hope this helps.

    Next is the shim mod suggested by marz tech dep, piece of cake.

    Tom

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by terribletom
    Yo dog, I read your thread with interest since I was having the same issue with my OEM 55 tst2 160mm that came on my '08 kona coilair. I also could not compress with the cart removed here's what the deal is: while compressing down continue to let air out of the left leg, push-bleed, push down further-bleed more. If you do this you will eventually get that last 20mm. This to me means this thing is real progressive toward the end of the stroke in the left leg with regards to air, it's probably this way to prevent harsh bottoming. I have yet to remove some oil from the left leg since I dont have the tool to take off the cap but that might help depending if it's been overfilled. I hope this helps.

    Next is the shim mod suggested by marz tech dep, piece of cake.

    Tom
    Thanks Tom. I did push-bleed a bit at the time and think I gained some extra travel from it. I didn't have the cassette socket at the time so I was worried about letting too much oil out (I have one now).

    I had a play around with the air pressure at the weekend - I let most of the air out, just leaving in enough so that the fork extends fully. However, I noticed after doing a few jumps that I *think* I was bottoming out the fork, so I put some air back in. It was making a squeaking noise as I landed and went away with more air so I think that's what it was. The oil marks on the fork indicate I was getting at least 150mm - I'll put a cable-tie on next time I go out so I can measure accurately.

    The shim mod sounds good, but the lock-out is pretty handy. Not sure I'd want to lose it.

  11. #61
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    okay i need some quick help - if available.

    i opened the nut on the bottom of the AIRPL side (with the flat red starfish looking cover on the top shrader valve) expecting to find another shrader valve and instead found about 3oz of suspension oil pouring all over...

    now id say mostly all the oil that was in the AIR PL side has been emptied onto my floor...

    first question - should there have been this much oil in that side???

    second question - can i use the bike with what little remaining oil is in there or does it need to be refilled with another few ounces ( 1 oz ~= 30cc)

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by fixxxer0
    okay i need some quick help - if available.

    i opened the nut on the bottom of the AIRPL side (with the flat red starfish looking cover on the top shrader valve) expecting to find another shrader valve and instead found about 3oz of suspension oil pouring all over...

    now id say mostly all the oil that was in the AIR PL side has been emptied onto my floor...

    first question - should there have been this much oil in that side??? Yes there should be that much and more....200 CC of oil per Marzocchi

    second question - can i use the bike with what little remaining oil is in there or does it need to be refilled with another few ounces ( 1 oz ~= 30cc)
    Yes you can use the fork with that little oil but it will bottom out real easy and you will need to put in a lot of air to keep the fork up in the travel... I would just take off the top nut and fill that side of the fork until the oil level is 155-160 mm from the top of the opening...

  13. #63
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    Just wanted to make a correction, based on my 2008 55 TST2 fork its a 27mm socket you need to grind down, not a 22mm.


    please verify for yourself before you spend an hour grinding down a 22mm with a file and emery lol

    although i don't know who in the world would do that before removing the TST2 switch to check for an approx fit (hahahah i was so pissed at myself for being that lazy)

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by fixxxer0
    Just wanted to make a correction, based on my 2008 55 TST2 fork its a 27mm socket you need to grind down, not a 22mm.


    please verify for yourself before you spend an hour grinding down a 22mm with a file and emery lol

    although i don't know who in the world would do that before removing the TST2 switch to check for an approx fit (hahahah i was so pissed at myself for being that lazy)
    You're correct - I bought a 25mm wrench without bothering to check first.

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marzocchi Tech Department
    Wow, You guys have it all going. I read the post and three of you are talking about two different versions and now ETA pics.. wow their partners.

    Here's the deal. TST5 with external bladder, TST5 micro has an internal bladder, TST2 has no bladder and YES, it works just like TPC (Not my doing).


    TST2 is designed to be a climbing feature with limited performance. Which means all positions other than full on and full off will have their limitations. Orifice damping is speed sensitive there is no way around it. It does what it was designed to do, lock-out and un-lock.

    The current version of the TST2 had a stack of washers on the compression ports to block compression flow when the top adjuster is turned to it's firmest setting. It does not blow off and will spike like a mad dog. This is an orifice damper. The compression ports on the piston never do anything. The washers that are on there will be the last part to move.

    Here's what can be done. I did it and like it too but you loose the lock-out and turn it into a ripping performance setting. You will need 3 shims @ 18mm x 0.15mm thick with an 8mm ID hole. You will also need 3 washers 11mm OD by 11 ID. They need to be about 1mm thick.... Warning, if you break it you will pay for a new one.

    So take the top compression assembly and unscrew the piston. It has thread lock on the bolt so a little heat will help remove it.

    Now, on what would be the top of the piston group (that you hopefully didn't drop and parts are everywhere), remove the 4 thick washers closet to the thread of the bolt.

    You can now install the 3x18x0.15 shims and 3x11x 1mm washers. Apply thread lock and reinstall the piston group on the shaft.

    Done. Now just refill the TST cartridge, introduce the compression assembly as much as possible, compress, and tighten the cartridge. Install it and check it out. You will loose a lot of the lock-out feeling but oh my god, on the trail you will have a nice range of compression. It will be subtle and welll controlled.

    The bladder style cartridges (TST5 and TST micro), I would not recommend doing any modifications unless you have a machine shop to help you out. Those systems are a lot more involved to create a compression feature, that's where RC2 comes in.

    Have fun, be careful.

    ....and I call this a day off....
    Hi Tom
    I have a 2009 ATA arriving next week and am tempted to try this mod right off the bat. Another post mentioned an updated TST2 cart being available and I'm assuming this is in all 09 forks.

    Can you confirm? If its really updated for 09 I am tempted to just leave it for now.

    Thanks for the info!

  16. #66
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    hey everyone, hopefully someone is still checking this thread.....
    well i was going to go forward with the mod described by Mr. P in his other thread (thanks to everyone over there as well) but before i could get started, i realized that my 55 tst2 was only getting about half of the regular travel. i went to the northstar bike bike a couple weekends ago and unfortunately have not been able to ride since then. the fork was fine when i loaded it into my car for the ride home, and i am only noticing the lack of travel now. any ideas as to what happened? i live at a fairly high elevation myself, so i dont know if its an issue of air pressurizing in the legs or what. also, the bike/fork were upright during transit in case anyone was thinking it was oil related. i dont know a whole lot about forks, so any and all help or suggestions would be very much appreciated.

  17. #67
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    You could start by letting the air out of the fork and see how much travel you can get... it ain't easy to compress (even with all the air out) so get on top of it will all you got! If you going to do the mod it don't really matter anyway, just take it all apart do the mod and then fill as outlined in this thread.

    Good luck,

    Dale

  18. #68
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    i forgot to mention it in my first post, but i had let all the air out of the fork. thanks for the reply- i was hoping someone would tell me to just go ahead with the mod, i just wanted to make sure that wouldnt exacerbate or complicate my lack of travel issue.

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by benedwards
    i forgot to mention it in my first post, but i had let all the air out of the fork. thanks for the reply- i was hoping someone would tell me to just go ahead with the mod, i just wanted to make sure that wouldnt exacerbate or complicate my lack of travel issue.
    By all means... take it apart and do the mod.... it makes all the difference in the world on small bump compliance! You can set all the oil levels when you put it back together and all will be golden.

  20. #70
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    Hey flyag1
    Have any additional pictures of the modded cartridge by chance? the one pic I have seen on the thread from yourself and Mr P looks like there are no spacers at all, just 6 shims..

    Thanks!

  21. #71
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    "You can now install the 3x18x0.15 shims and 3x11x 1mm washers. Apply thread lock and reinstall the piston group on the shaft. "

    do these go on as 'shim-washer-shim-washershim-washer' or as 'shim-shim-shim-washer-washer-washer?

    If I go for 5 or 6 shims in a pyramid stack, do I still need to add the three washers?

    really fancy doing this to my 55s and all the info is great.

  22. #72
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    Sorry to bring up this old thread....

    Is it possible to change to the TST2 fork from 160mm to 140mm? I've done the shim conversion and the forks works great. Now I want to reduce the travel. Anyone have a link on how to do it?

    Thanks!

  23. #73
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    Credit Flyag1 for the pic.

    Do the opposite of this (the photo is for 140 to 160)



    P

  24. #74
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    Perfect! I knew I had seen a picture somewhere of how to do it I just couldn't find it.

    Thanks again

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marzocchi Tech Department
    Wow, You guys have it all going. I read the post and three of you are talking about two different versions and now ETA pics.. wow their partners.

    Here's the deal. TST5 with external bladder, TST5 micro has an internal bladder, TST2 has no bladder and YES, it works just like TPC (Not my doing).


    TST2 is designed to be a climbing feature with limited performance. Which means all positions other than full on and full off will have their limitations. Orifice damping is speed sensitive there is no way around it. It does what it was designed to do, lock-out and un-lock.

    The current version of the TST2 had a stack of washers on the compression ports to block compression flow when the top adjuster is turned to it's firmest setting. It does not blow off and will spike like a mad dog. This is an orifice damper. The compression ports on the piston never do anything. The washers that are on there will be the last part to move.

    Here's what can be done. I did it and like it too but you loose the lock-out and turn it into a ripping performance setting. You will need 3 shims @ 18mm x 0.15mm thick with an 8mm ID hole. You will also need 3 washers 11mm OD by 11 ID. They need to be about 1mm thick.... Warning, if you break it you will pay for a new one.

    So take the top compression assembly and unscrew the piston. It has thread lock on the bolt so a little heat will help remove it.

    Now, on what would be the top of the piston group (that you hopefully didn't drop and parts are everywhere), remove the 4 thick washers closet to the thread of the bolt.

    You can now install the 3x18x0.15 shims and 3x11x 1mm washers. Apply thread lock and reinstall the piston group on the shaft.

    Done. Now just refill the TST cartridge, introduce the compression assembly as much as possible, compress, and tighten the cartridge. Install it and check it out. You will loose a lot of the lock-out feeling but oh my god, on the trail you will have a nice range of compression. It will be subtle and welll controlled.

    The bladder style cartridges (TST5 and TST micro), I would not recommend doing any modifications unless you have a machine shop to help you out. Those systems are a lot more involved to create a compression feature, that's where RC2 comes in.

    Have fun, be careful.

    ....and I call this a day off....
    sounds like I have the often described tst2 failure. I first noticed a bit of travel gone away, and now I have about 50% travel.

    It sounds like the typical failure, my question is this, short of shipping it out and being with out a bike for weeks, can this be fixed at home at all?

    Also, would doing this mod eliminate the problem? or do I still have to get the current issue fixed first?
    http://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php?...5=&postcount=45

    In all honesty I do NOT need a shock that turns into a rigid anyway, I want to set it and forget it and go ride, KISS principle in my life.

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