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  1. #26
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    Nice work guys. It great to see how the new dampers are.

    It is interesting to see how Marzocchi tried to overcome the problems of the TST5 cartridge. And what I mean here was the blowing of the blander. The old TST5 cartridge used the rubber blander for the amount of oil that was dislocated by the rebound rod during compression. If some oil leaked from the cartridge, then air would get in during the rebound phase. And air into the cartridge meant that the compression piston didn't work anymore (it needs to be completely in oil).

    With the new design the rubber blander is replace by the air chamber above the compression piston. The piston needs to be immerse into oil but, there needs to be a decent amount of air above it. So there is a specific amount of oil that needs to be put in the cartridge. At least this is what one can see from the pictures.

    Those my believe is that blown cartridges are due wrong amount of oil. The cartrige will be damaged if there is too much oil in the damper! Just think about it. Under compression the oil dislocate by the rebound rod will not have where to go (even if there is a bit of air in the cartridge the pressure will extremely rump up). And the only way out of the damper is the rebound rod seal or one of the seal s of the upper or lower caps. If one of these seals brake, than the oil will be out and there will be no compression.

    Thus I think that someone (Marzocchi!!!) needs to come up with the right oil levels for new TST cartridges. If I would have such a fork I would take out the cartridge and try to put as few oil into the damper as possible before using it. As usual Marzocchi has good design but screw things up at the assembly.

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by macadam
    Nice work guys. It great to see how the new dampers are.

    It is interesting to see how Marzocchi tried to overcome the problems of the TST5 cartridge. And what I mean here was the blowing of the blander. The old TST5 cartridge used the rubber blander for the amount of oil that was dislocated by the rebound rod during compression. If some oil leaked from the cartridge, then air would get in during the rebound phase. And air into the cartridge meant that the compression piston didn't work anymore (it needs to be completely in oil).

    With the new design the rubber blander is replace by the air chamber above the compression piston. The piston needs to be immerse into oil but, there needs to be a decent amount of air above it. So there is a specific amount of oil that needs to be put in the cartridge. At least this is what one can see from the pictures.

    Those my believe is that blown cartridges are due wrong amount of oil. The cartrige will be damaged if there is too much oil in the damper! Just think about it. Under compression the oil dislocate by the rebound rod will not have where to go (even if there is a bit of air in the cartridge the pressure will extremely rump up). And the only way out of the damper is the rebound rod seal or one of the seal s of the upper or lower caps. If one of these seals brake, than the oil will be out and there will be no compression.

    Thus I think that someone (Marzocchi!!!) needs to come up with the right oil levels for new TST cartridges. If I would have such a fork I would take out the cartridge and try to put as few oil into the damper as possible before using it. As usual Marzocchi has good design but screw things up at the assembly.



    One thing... I may be dead wrong, but I seem to recall the TST2 had to be pressurized (at least for 2007's???) as people on a Spanish board was fixing the travel issues with the TST2's by letting air scape, letting some oil to come off and pressurizing again to 40psi or so (recommended by Marzocchi was in the order of 140psi or so).
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  3. #28
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    Can one add air into the cartridge? Is there a valve on the top cap? Can't really see one in the pictorials. Can some post a picture of the top cap?

    It can also be that this year TST2 is different from the 2007 model. Any idea?

    I doubt there a valve with which one can set the pressure in the cartridge. Unless the blow-off shims don't need to be pressurized I don't see why needs to have air pressure into the cartridge.

    I really wonder how someone can "bend" that blow-off shims under compression and let the oil pass!

    Adrian

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by macadam
    Can one add air into the cartridge? Is there a valve on the top cap? Can't really see one in the pictorials. Can some post a picture of the top cap?

    It can also be that this year TST2 is different from the 2007 model. Any idea?

    I doubt there a valve with which one can set the pressure in the cartridge. Unless the blow-off shims don't need to be pressurized I don't see why needs to have air pressure into the cartridge.

    I really wonder how someone can "bend" that blow-off shims under compression and let the oil pass!

    Adrian
    I think the 2007's were slightly different... But let's hope someone with first hand experience chime in.

    I don't see a reason to have the cartridge pressurized, either... When I get home I'll get the source where I got the info about the pressure on the 2007's.

    I also don't understand Marzocchi's reasoning behind the stiff blowoffs. The one on the TST5 is a heavy, thick shim preloaded with a stiff spring.

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  5. #30
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    Before anyone comments: my photochop skills are lacking but here is my understanding of the min oil level. You can also see the relative size of the air chamber above the rebound piston... per Marzocchi no pressure required . I was told to install the compression side of the cartridge, flip the cartridge pside down and fill the rebound side with 2.5 wt oil. Then insert the rebound piston / rod and torque. Following there instructions you will end up with the oil level as depicted in the cutaway... .

    [IMG]Photobucket[/IMG]

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by flyag1
    Before anyone comments: my photochop skills are lacking but here is my understanding of the min oil level. You can also see the relative size of the air chamber above the rebound piston... per Marzocchi no pressure required . I was told to install the compression side of the cartridge, flip the cartridge pside down and fill the rebound side with 2.5 wt oil. Then insert the rebound piston / rod and torque. Following there instructions you will end up with the oil level as depicted in the cutaway...
    Ha! You are rockin' Photoshop!

    Did they ask you put the TST in "locked" position?

    Is the 2.5w oil different than what they specced? Or is the same?

    P

  7. #32
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    No air ports on the 2008 TST2


  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.P
    Ha! You are rockin' Photoshop!

    Did they ask you put the TST in "locked" position?

    Is the 2.5w oil different than what they specced? Or is the same?

    P
    Oil is spec... and they did not specify tst in locked position... hence: in our personal communication I wrote, " I think before we post the oil levels, I better verify everything works correctly"

    Almost everything in life is experimental

  9. #34
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    Hi flyag1,

    this sounds pretty good. However, I would say that one would need a bit of oil over the compression piston, like 1 or 2mm above. If you follow the procedure you just describe, it might happen that the compression piston will not be into oil. And in this case the lockout, and the compression adjust will not work (similar to Rock Shox MC, Manitou TPC).

    I would rather mount the rebound first, then poor oil into the cartridge. Cycle the rebound rod couple of times (with the rebound fully open) to let the oil get beneath the rebound piston. You should have the rebound piston all the time covered by oil. Then I would measure the length of the compression unit, from the compression piston to the o-ring that seals the cartridge, lets say it has length X. Then, with the rebound rod fully extended (all way out the cartridge) set the oil level to X plus 1-2mm. In this way you are sure you have the piston sinked in oil. Then insert the compression unit, with the compression fully open. Basically is the same procedure like on the Manitou TPC/SPV forks.

    Adrian

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by flyag1
    Before anyone comments: my photochop skills are lacking but here is my understanding of the min oil level. You can also see the relative size of the air chamber above the rebound piston... per Marzocchi no pressure required . I was told to install the compression side of the cartridge, flip the cartridge pside down and fill the rebound side with 2.5 wt oil. Then insert the rebound piston / rod and torque. Following there instructions you will end up with the oil level as depicted in the cutaway... .
    I think you have the procedure right, the illustration wrong.

    As per the illustration, if you extend the rebound rod, you'll end up with the compression piston depleted of oil. So oil level should be very close to the very top of the cartridge when the cart is completely compressed.

    The procedure that was given to you is correct. You can do the other way around and measure the total depth of the compression assembly from the top threads to the upper face of the compression piston, then install the rebound rod, add oil up to the compression piston upper face depth and close the cart.

    It's pretty much like a rear shock... Just that there is not IFP. In a shock, shock compression will move the IFP making the chamber smaller, on the TST2 (and Micro??) the compression assembly is stationary and the cartridge compression will raise the oil level past the compression piston.... just like Macadam mentioned.

    Adam... I think air in the cart is not an issue... They just have to make sure oil covers the compression piston at rebound's full extensionas you well mention.
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  11. #36
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    Thanks for the pictures. Now we have almost the complete description of the TST2.

    One more thing. How is the compression adjusted? is the same type of internal rod, like on the rebound?

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by macadam
    One more thing. How is the compression adjusted? is the same type of internal rod, like on the rebound?
    Looks like it works like the ETA to me... An inner shaft inside the main shaft just closing/opening an orifice.

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  13. #38
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    Hi all - quick question I hope one of you can answer. My 55 TST2 has too much oil in (can't get the last 20mm of travel) and I've been told (by Marzocchi Tech Support on here) to let some oil out. Does this just involve loosening the nut at the bottom of the non-TST side?

  14. #39
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    Hi arctic,

    if you want to remove some oil from the TST2 I would open the top cap, the compression unit and remove from there. I would remove the compression unit completely and then measure the oil level such that it matches the length of the compression unit.

    Adrian

  15. #40
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    Thanks macadam. Do you mean the large nut where the TST control is?

  16. #41
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    yes, the big top cap. Take a good look at this thread, and pay attention to the pics. Go through all the posts before working on the cartridge, there is great info which might come handy during the service.

    Adrian

  17. #42
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    Thanks

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by arctic303
    Hi all - quick question I hope one of you can answer. My 55 TST2 has too much oil in (can't get the last 20mm of travel) and I've been told (by Marzocchi Tech Support on here) to let some oil out. Does this just involve loosening the nut at the bottom of the non-TST side?

    You need to remove the TST2 cartridge from the fork. Make sure the lock-out is in the open position. Then loosen the nut on the bottom of the cartridge and compress it completely. You can also loosen the top cap. Do this with either open side up. When you compress it and comes out it is over filled. You can then reextend it and retighten the endcap and reinstall it in the fork with 30cc's of oil in the stanchion for lubrication. Make sure everything is tight. Game on.
    Last edited by Marzocchi Tech Department; 04-09-2008 at 07:26 PM.
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  19. #44
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    I have played with different fluid levels and here are couple of things to really watch for:

    First you must not over fill or you can't get full travel, that is where you are now...
    Second, to little oil and you will not have any compression dampening...

    Look back at the cutaway I posted a few days ago, you will see the minimum oil level. If you put just the minimum amount of oil in the cartridge with the rebound rod extended (all the way out) then when you push the rod into the cartridge you will displace a larger amount of oil then one would expect: the rod itself will displaces 30mm or fluid... this is not a misprint! 30mm or oil...

    So you want minimum oil levels to start with other wise it's becomes an airspring with compressed.

    Start with removing the top cap of the cartridge... there is no need to remove the bottom. The reason for removing the top is that the top (compression) piston is fixed and you can't cycle the piston which you will need to do... cycling the piston on the bottom will insure you don't have air trapped underneath...

    With the top cap and compression piston removed fill the cartridge nearly full and cycle the lower piston up and down to insure there is no air trapped below the piston. Now set the oil level @ 110 mm below the top rim of the cartridge. This will allow you 2mm of oil above the compression piston once the top cap is re-installed. Reinstall the top cap... done.

    Once you have the top cap tight you should be able to cycle the rod in and out with ease, there may be just a little resistance when the rod is fully inserted... just enough that the rod may try to extend on it own, an 1inch or so...

  20. #45
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    You guys are rocket scientist!!

    Wow, You guys have it all going. I read the post and three of you are talking about two different versions and now ETA pics.. wow their partners.

    Here's the deal. TST5 with external bladder, TST5 micro has an internal bladder, TST2 has no bladder and YES, it works just like TPC (Not my doing).


    TST2 is designed to be a climbing feature with limited performance. Which means all positions other than full on and full off will have their limitations. Orifice damping is speed sensitive there is no way around it. It does what it was designed to do, lock-out and un-lock.

    The current version of the TST2 had a stack of washers on the compression ports to block compression flow when the top adjuster is turned to it's firmest setting. It does not blow off and will spike like a mad dog. This is an orifice damper. The compression ports on the piston never do anything. The washers that are on there will be the last part to move.

    Here's what can be done. I did it and like it too but you loose the lock-out and turn it into a ripping performance setting. You will need 3 shims @ 18mm x 0.15mm thick with an 8mm ID hole. You will also need 3 washers 11mm OD by 11 ID. They need to be about 1mm thick.... Warning, if you break it you will pay for a new one.

    So take the top compression assembly and unscrew the piston. It has thread lock on the bolt so a little heat will help remove it.

    Now, on what would be the top of the piston group (that you hopefully didn't drop and parts are everywhere), remove the 4 thick washers closet to the thread of the bolt.

    You can now install the 3x18x0.15 shims and 3x11x 1mm washers. Apply thread lock and reinstall the piston group on the shaft.

    Done. Now just refill the TST cartridge, introduce the compression assembly as much as possible, compress, and tighten the cartridge. Install it and check it out. You will loose a lot of the lock-out feeling but oh my god, on the trail you will have a nice range of compression. It will be subtle and welll controlled.

    The bladder style cartridges (TST5 and TST micro), I would not recommend doing any modifications unless you have a machine shop to help you out. Those systems are a lot more involved to create a compression feature, that's where RC2 comes in.

    Have fun, be careful.

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  21. #46
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    Sorry guys.. loosened the top cap but can't turn any further as the TST lever hits the side. Either this lever just pulls off somehow or I need to loosen the nut at the bottom?

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by arctic303
    Sorry guys.. loosened the top cap but can't turn any further as the TST lever hits the side. Either this lever just pulls off somehow or I need to loosen the nut at the bottom?
    Just pull straight up it held on with o-rings.

  23. #48
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    Getting there. Undone the top cap, now I can pull it up about 10mm but not any further. Do I need to undo the bottom now?

  24. #49
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    Well.. all looks pretty simple inside except I obviously don't have the right tools for the job. Removed the cartridge but couldn't get the nut undone at all. Re-assembled it and now it's as it was (minus 20mm of travel) and the TST doesn't work at all. What a mare..

    [edit] - fiddled about a bit with the cartridge extending it and then compressing and the TST is working again. I did notice that even without the cartidge installed, I could only compress the fork to 140mm travel so it's obviously not the TST anyway. Maybe this is normal, perhaps the spring is just too stiff? Tried putting my whole weight on the front wheel but can't get that last 20mm. Still, it's better than it was half hour ago.
    Last edited by arctic303; 04-03-2008 at 04:57 PM.

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by arctic303
    Well.. all looks pretty simple inside except I obviously don't have the right tools for the job. Removed the cartridge but couldn't get the nut undone at all. Re-assembled it and now it's as it was (minus 20mm of travel) and the TST doesn't work at all. What a mare..

    [edit] - fiddled about a bit with the cartridge extending it and then compressing and the TST is working again. I did notice that even without the cartidge installed, I could only compress the fork to 140mm travel so it's obviously not the TST anyway. Maybe this is normal, perhaps the spring is just too stiff? Tried putting my whole weight on the front wheel but can't get that last 20mm. Still, it's better than it was half hour ago.
    I am interested to know if you could push the rod all the way into the cartridge when you had it out? If you could then everything is ok... no need to drop oil!

    Also, did you let all the air out of the left side before you tried to compress? It is not easy to compress... need to ride into a curb to hit bottom:^)

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