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  1. #151
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    Hey guys,

    Wondering if there is a similar thread (I tried searching but gave up after an hour or so), or if someone can point me to instructions with pretty pictures for lowering an 08 55 tst 2 from 160mm to 135-ish mm?

    Great thread by the way.

  2. #152
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    Dan, if the pumping rod on the 55 is similar to the XC600 rod then its just a matter of putting a spacer under the spring. This should be possible since the 55R is sold at 140mm travel and the 55TST is 160. The two forks most likely share the same parts except for the TST cart. I would call zoke and ask them to be sure but it should be possible.

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by handsomedan
    lowering an 08 55 tst 2 from 160mm to 135-ish mm?
    Reverse these instructions (140->160) will take you to 140mm

    http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=216889

    P

  4. #154
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    Hey P, regarding the check plate which gets bent after some time with the conversion, have you replaced yours yet? I noticed that it is .1mm thick; do you think a .15mm replacement would give a more durable checkplate without affecting rebound function? Cheers, Steve

  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevo the Devo
    Hey P, regarding the check plate which gets bent after some time with the conversion, have you replaced yours yet? I noticed that it is .1mm thick; do you think a .15mm replacement would give a more durable checkplate without affecting rebound function? Cheers, Steve
    Hey Steve, I am now running 2 .10 shims on the checkplate, but haven't ridden enough (only 3 times) and haven't pulled it out to see if there is any deformation.

    But it hasn't had any negative rebound effects.

    I think almost all the opening of the checkplate is through the spring so you should be good.

    P

  6. #156
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    I have a new shim stack update. I am running all .10 shims:
    18mm
    17mm
    16mm
    14mm
    12mm

    It feels pretty soft, to the point that I run all damping through the shim stack. And it still feels just a bit soft.

    I do prefer running the damping completely through the shims rather than using the freebleed as it feels more controlled in all situations, braking, tech, but still feels butter.

    I am looking to try one or two more shims. I am a big believer in going too little and to far to confirm a sweetspot.

    I love that I can make a shim change in 10 minutes.

    P

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.P
    I have a new shim stack update. I am running all .10 shims:
    18mm
    17mm
    16mm
    14mm
    12mm

    It feels pretty soft, to the point that I run all damping through the shim stack. And it still feels just a bit soft.

    I do prefer running the damping completely through the shims rather than using the freebleed as it feels more controlled in all situations, braking, tech, but still feels butter.

    I am looking to try one or two more shims. I am a big believer in going too little and to far to confirm a sweetspot.

    I love that I can make a shim change in 10 minutes.

    P
    Hey P,
    Try 3 18's, I reckon that will be about right; if not, drop it back to just 2 18's. Thanks for the checkplate update, my feeling also was that the spring is the main contributor, so I think I will get a .15 to pop in (as its stronger than 2x .1's). Cheers, Steve

  8. #158
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    So whats the point of the 12mm spacer? Do you need it? Where would I get a 12mm (w/8mm ID) chain ring spacer?

  9. #159
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    I don't think you need it. I don't run it on my setup and it works fine. Just try to duplicate the overall length of the piston. If you remove 4mm of spacers replace it with 4mm of shims.

  10. #160
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    sweet, thanks man.

  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevo the Devo
    Hey P,
    Try 3 18's, I reckon that will be about right; if not, drop it back to just 2 18's
    Hey Steve, sorry I missed this before.

    Thanks for the tip. I was wondering where to add the next shim. I'll try what you suggest and report back

    P

  12. #162
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    Great thread guys, really good info :-)

    I picked up these forks yesterday, they were OEM on a Kona coilair and got a good price on em just three rides old.

    I want to try this shim stacking mod as it soumds great, just have a couple of questions if you don't mind helping out.

    1) The shim stack 'face shim' is the one that is touching the face of the piston right? there are no washers between the face shim and the piston? This needs to be 18mm OD to cover the port?

    2) Do the shims have washers between them to seperate them, or do they stack directly against each other?

    3) How is the stack retained against the piston, is it the 10mm nut and the chainring spacer that hold them against the face of the piston?

    4) Earlier in the thread there was a mention of washers with "11mm ID and 11mm OD by 1mm thick" which looks like a typo (or they would be very thin washers ;-) ) . were these washers for seperating the shims on the stack?

    Be very grateful if you could answer these for me so I can have a go at the mod. Just got to find somewhere in the UK to get the shims now

  13. #163
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    Hi all - just found this thread and I'm wondering if this mod will work on my '09 44ata fork with TST2? (i.e. are the cartridges the same?) If so, I'll be back for more specific advice

    Thanks.

    JZ
    It's not about speed, it's about lack of control.

  14. #164
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    Thought I'd revisit this thread after 4 months on a fox float RL. The float is much smoother at low speed, rides higher in the travel, and the stroke is machine like compared to the zokes notchiness. But i'm really missing the adjustable damping on the zoke. The float really spikes on high speed roots where the zoke just ate everything up at speed. I'm brainstorming about a 55 with the TST2 shim mod and a straight air spring ala the float. I believe Zoke will offer something similar in 2010.

  15. #165
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    A TPC marzocchi.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz and NZ Manitou Agent.
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  16. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal
    A TPC marzocchi.
    Yep. But with a nice progressive air assist spring.

    P

  17. #167
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    Finally sourced some shims in the UK and got this done. Fantastic mod, totally changed the way the fork works, and now feels like my '05 66rc :-D. Totally changed the way the bike feels on fast DHs

    Thanks for putting this thread up and to all who recommended shim stack sizes and the other info. The blowtorch tip was great for getting the 10mm bolt out.

    Ended up with the following setting as a first attempt. It feels great but just needs a little more resistance to diving under braking:

    18mm (0.15mm), 18mm (0.1mm), 17mm (0.1mm), 16mm (0.1mm),16mm (0.1mm),14mm (0.1mm), 12mm (0.1mm), original spacer plus another small spacer. Total length of shims plus spacers is 3mm.

    Using Motorex 5wt synthetic oil, 50mm oil height (compressed) on spring side and 110mm oil height (extended) on TST2 side. Air pressure about 35psi

    I'm about 16 stone kitted up and it seems to work really nicely now. Just got to try a two stage stack now and see if there is a difference.

  18. #168
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    Andy what fork did you mod? My xc600 had no brake dive at all. Try closing the TST knob a click or two. This will port more oil into the shim stack and less through the free bleed.

    How do you compare the TST shim feel to the RC damper on your 66?

  19. #169
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    It's on a 55 TST2. I was running the TST control know fully open, as the high speed sensetivity seemed to suffer slightly with it closed. With it closed a bit it did help with the diving but it just felt a little harsher on the small stuff.

    The two sets of 66s I've had, '05 RCs and '07 SL1ATAs were superb. Small bumps just weren't there no matter what speed you were going and they were nicely adjustable for the bigger hits too. The compression adjust on the RC2 cartridge was excellent but I think it was a low speed compression adjust. It's the RC2x system that has high speed compression adjust in the spring side leg.

    I tried to fit the RC2 cartridge into the 55 chassis, and the bottom bolts in just fine. The top cap is a smaller diameter though and just dropped into the 55 leg without engaging the threads. Bit gutted about that :-(

    I'll keep playing with the shim stack, maybe replace the 18x0.15 with an 18x0.1 or put a larger shim in the middle of the stack. As Mr P says you can get to it in 10 min and alter all the settings :-)

  20. #170
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    ... plus ETA??...

    Soooo, i've got a few buds who recently bought Coilairs. Nice bikes, everyone is happy except one thing.. yeah, the forks. All have hydro lock syndrome, and even though the LBS is getting new TST2 cartridges from Marzocchi, im not sure its gonna fix the problem.

    This shim stack conversion seems like the best option to me, and easy at that. But there is one more thing which is really intriguing to me.. the possibility of ETA. In 2008 Marzocchi had the 55 ETA, so im wondering if its possible to get those cartridges seperately, and put them into these 55 TST2 forks. I believe that those ETA cartridges also have air preload valves, because they were coupled with TSTmicro which has no air preload valve.

    Anyways, sounds like almost perfect to me.. 160mm travel, 20mm TA, 35mm stanchions, shim stacked damper, low speed compression, and ETA to boot. As long as the ETA cartridge isnt too expensive, in the end it could be a pretty wicked fork for little $$.

    Anybody know if the ETA idea is a go??? And can hydro locking still happen on the 2008 TST2 even after the shim stack mod?
    Last edited by PsyCro; 07-22-2009 at 08:03 AM.

  21. #171
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    Edit : Beaten to it by Mr P

    Can't help with the ETA, but try the guy at Marz tech support on here as he seems really helpful.

    The 55 TST2 forks I have converted are from a base model coilair and the difference is amazing. They are soooooooo much better with the shims mod done.

    The shim mod doesn't cure the hydro locking issue, but if you do the shim mod it will teach you how to fix the hydro lock problem on a temporary basis by lowering the oil level in the TST2 cartridge back to the correct level.

    from the info that Mr P and other have posted up, it sounds as if the hydro lock is caused by the lube oil from the main fork leg being forced into the TST cart via the cap at the base of the cartridge. The fix seems to be a replacement base cap or whole new cart from marz.

    Loook at the start of this thread and Mr P links to the TST2 bleed thread that will tell your buds how to temporarily fix their forks until the lbs has the parts.
    Last edited by AndyPP; 07-22-2009 at 11:27 AM.

  22. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsyCro
    Anybody know if the ETA idea is a go??? And can hydro locking still happen on the 2008 TST2 even after the shim stack mod?
    ETA is a go as it resides in the other leg. You just have to call up Marzocchi to see if they have the parts.

    Hydrolocking should be fixed with the updated TST2 cartridge.

    P

  23. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimZinVT
    Hi all - just found this thread and I'm wondering if this mod will work on my '09 44ata fork with TST2? (i.e. are the cartridges the same?) If so, I'll be back for more specific advice

    Thanks.

    JZ
    Hi Jim,
    The internals of your fork should be identical to the XC600 from 2008, so you are good to go! This is the fork which I modded, so check my posts as a good starting point (esp note the difference in oil height). Happy tuning
    Cheers, Steve

  24. #174
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    Great thread. does this apply to the 33 TST2 shock as well

    Thanks!!

  25. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ohfugit
    Great thread. does this apply to the 33 TST2 shock as well

    Thanks!!
    No reason why it shouldn't, as long as the tst2 cartridge is the same design. The amount of oil you use will be different to the 55, however. If it is the same size cart as a 44, oil height will be 75-80mm from the top. Justoverfill it, and cycle it a few times, letting any excess oil spill out (into a catch bucket of course.)

  26. #176
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    Tuning a stack

    Instead of trying to use a crossover shim to soften the low speed damping a backer shim might work better to stiffen the high speed damping. With a backing shim you can tune the gapper thickness to change the suspension velocity where the backer kicks in.


    and change the backer thickness to control the stiffness of the high speed damping.


    You can tune the gapper by the seat of the pants or use a tool like ReStackor to design the stack and control the point where the backer kicks in.

    The other thing you can do with ReStackor is weight scale a stack. Suppose you wanted to try out AndyPP's stack tuned for a sixteen stone rider (18.15, 18.1, 17.1, 2x16.1, 14.1, 12.1). ReStackor will scale the stack based on spring rate which is pretty much the same thing as rider weight for a mountain bike. The scaled stack looks like this:


    That stack would adjust the damping rate to give the same "ride" for a 13 stone rider.

    Check it out: www.shimrestackor.com

  27. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by clicked
    Instead of trying to use a crossover shim to soften the low speed damping a backer shim might work better to stiffen the high speed damping. With a backing shim you can tune the gapper thickness to change the suspension velocity where the backer kicks in.....www.shimrestackor.com
    Thanks for posting that up

    Do you think we have enough velocity in MTB forks to run a gapper?

    P

  28. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.P
    Thanks for posting that up

    Do you think we have enough velocity in MTB forks to run a gapper?

    P
    +1 Great post!!!!


    I think we have enough speeds for a gapper... Zoke shocks use one. But I don't know if that extrapolates well to a fork....

    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/8511008@N05/1897364703/" title="Roco Damper04 by Warpo, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2409/1897364703_94d608b447.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="Roco Damper04" /></a>
    Check my Site

  29. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp
    +1 Great post!!!!


    I think we have enough speeds for a gapper... Zoke shocks use one. But I don't know if that extrapolates well to a fork....

    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/8511008@N05/1897364703/" title="Roco Damper04 by Warpo, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2409/1897364703_94d608b447.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="Roco Damper04" /></a>
    I suspect those stop washers aren't part of the tuning as much as preventing the shims over-flexing and damaging themselves.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz and NZ Manitou Agent.
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  30. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.P
    Thanks for posting that up

    Do you think we have enough velocity in MTB forks to run a gapper?

    P
    If you put a tall gapper shim in, the stack will never hit the backer. If the gapper is paper thin the stack will hit the backer when you just sit on the bike. So it is relative.

    I stole your picture off of the first page to make a guess at the compression piston diameter. I got 20mm. That diameter produces a good amount of oil flow through the piston and the piston only has two ports. So, based on the piston diameter, port geometry, oil flow and stack stiffness the ReStackor calculations show the stack hits the backer at a suspension velocity of about 50 in/sec.


    These equations are from the ReStackor web site for computing average suspension velocities over a bump.


    If you are moving at 20 mph and hit a one inch bump you have a suspension velocity around 50 in/sec. This figure is for a 27" motorcycle tire so it probably needs some corrections, but close enough for web work Eh?


    The shims will hit the backer, even on a fairly modest bump.

    But the bigger point is you can tune the shim stack stiffness and gapper height to make the stack hit the backer at whatever suspension velocity you want. You just have to tune it.

  31. #181
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    any updates? very intriguing thread.. should have my 55 tst this week.. can't wait to crack it open..
    "The future belongs to those that believe in the beauty of their dreams."

  32. #182
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    New question here. shims...

    Anybody know where i can order shims online inside of Europe??

  33. #183
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    Sooo, it's a philosophy/economic strategy issue?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Warp
    If they're the closed cartridge type (not bladder), yes. Most probably.
    Great thread OP. Fantastic work.

    Just got an 09 55 ATA w TST2 hence googling for info. Found this thread. TST2 knob feels v sloppy/loose, but is not wanting to come off without a fight. Have ordered an exchange. When it shows, if it's perfect, I'll keep it as is until it needs a service and then.... But, if neither of them's perfect, I might crack one open and poke around. And if I'm in there......thanks to the OP.....I may as well...do the mod.
    Thanks again to the OP and all who contributed.
    Last edited by Ecogeek; 10-23-2009 at 02:35 AM.

  34. #184
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    Hardware store, or online.

    Quote Originally Posted by PsyCro
    Anybody know where i can order shims online inside of Europe??
    Seems you need 'valving shims'. From a motorcyle store perhaps. This place has them. http://mx-tech.com/?id=products&subcat=153
    Dunno if they sell to Europe.
    Anyone know any other suppliers?
    Last edited by Ecogeek; 10-23-2009 at 03:05 AM.

  35. #185
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    Does anyone know if this mod will work for the 55 ata2? One side has the tst2 and the other side is the ata with only 1 air adjuster on the bottom of the fork. I had the fork sent back to marzocchi and they replaced the '08 tst2 with the '09 tst2. Is there any difference between '08 and '09?

  36. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwilcox
    Does anyone know if this mod will work for the 55 ata2? One side has the tst2 and the other side is the ata with only 1 air adjuster on the bottom of the fork. I had the fork sent back to marzocchi and they replaced the '08 tst2 with the '09 tst2. Is there any difference between '08 and '09?
    Yes, it will work fine. No diff between 08 and 09 except that 09 generally works...

  37. #187
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    Good to know. Thanks for the reply.

  38. #188
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    how much beer does it take to clamp a tube to your damper with vice grips? I want to make sure I am prepared...

  39. #189
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    1-2; any more and you may end up clamping your damper to a beerbottle with a tube...

  40. #190
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    Anyone know if this problem still persists with the '2010 55 TST2?? If so will this mod remedy it aswell?

  41. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by wickedone31
    Anyone know if this problem still persists with the '2010 55 TST2?? If so will this mod remedy it aswell?
    The problem that TST2 is a lockout feature???
    Quote Originally Posted by the_owl
    Everytime you ride in mud, god kills a kitten.

  42. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by stiingya
    The problem that TST2 is a lockout feature???
    well it was said that it remedies the problem many people had with Hydrolock, and the fork bottoming to only 3" of travel. I am wondering is people are still experienceing the problem with the 2010 fork?

  43. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by wickedone31
    well it was said that it remedies the problem many people had with Hydrolock, and the fork bottoming to only 3" of travel. I am wondering is people are still experienceing the problem with the 2010 fork?
    Getting the oil level right cures the travel, and that and changing the dampener characteristics can fix hydrolock, but neither of those issues are caused by the TST2 in the first place cause it's just a lockout...
    Quote Originally Posted by the_owl
    Everytime you ride in mud, god kills a kitten.

  44. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by wickedone31
    well it was said that it remedies the problem many people had with Hydrolock, and the fork bottoming to only 3" of travel. I am wondering is people are still experienceing the problem with the 2010 fork?
    Don't know for sure, but I think the QC issues have all been resolved now.

  45. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp
    +1 Great post!!!!


    I think we have enough speeds for a gapper... Zoke shocks use one. But I don't know if that extrapolates well to a fork....

    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/8511008@N05/1897364703/" title="Roco Damper04 by Warpo, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2409/1897364703_94d608b447.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="Roco Damper04" /></a>



    I looked at this picture and decided to use one of the 4 original lockout washers that came on damper as a gapper just to see if it would help. I have the shims lined up in a pyramid stack then a 1.5mm thick spacer then the washer at the end. I definitely notice more compression now, both low and high speed, probably because the washer is not allowing the shims to flex out nearly as far. Now I'm thinking about making a real stopper gapper with holes drilled out like the picture above to let the oil flow through better. The gapper seems to really impact the compression on this bike compared to just shims alone.

    Another thing: Since shimming my fork (without the gapper) I notice almost no difference using the TST open or closed. I'm not sure if this has something to do with fork oil weight or the stack I'm using, but the TST feels the same in any position now. With stopper washer in I seem to notice about 30% more compression when in the lockout position on fork.

  46. #196
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    Is this right?

    Amazing! Great job.

    I got cracking and here's what I've got. The outer diameter of the damper piston on my setup is much larger than that of my 18mm shim. This leaves a large open gap before my stack begins. This can't be right can it?

    Thanks for the help!

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  47. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by masonmax
    Amazing! Great job.

    I got cracking and here's what I've got. The outer diameter of the damper piston on my setup is much larger than that of my 18mm shim. This leaves a large open gap before my stack begins. This can't be right can it?

    Thanks for the help!

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    The gap shown in the pic should be the oil return circuit, which you do not want covered. The other piston holes that do not go to the outer edge is what you want to cover.

    P

  48. #198
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    the shims only have to cover the compression oil ports (which are a obscured by the shims in the pic). The open gap with the cutout is for oil to flow on the rebound stroke.

  49. #199
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    I see now. So since I have the compression oil ports fully covered I should be okay? I have ridden my modded fork and everything feels good but I am still having bottoming issues. I weigh about 200# and ride somewhat aggressively (moderate jumps and drops). My stack right now is 18, 18, 17, 17, 16, 14, 13. I double checked my oil level and it is at 110 mm from the top when fully extended. Any ideas would be much appreciated!

  50. #200
    mtbr member
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    Yep, I had the same exact problem. I weigh exactly the same as you as well.

    The solution is to add a little oil to the right leg (Non TST/compression side). This not only takes care of bottoming, you can also tailor the progressive-ness.

    Basically the more oil you put in the sooner in the stroke it will ramp up.

    Here's a trick, add about an 1/8 cup to the non TST leg and hit the trail. If it's ramping up too soon and you are not getting enough travel just flip the bike upside down and press in the air valve in to purge some of the oil out. Be careful! It will shoot out quickly so bring a rag to keep the oil from getting everywhere. Hit the trail again, test and repeat the oil purging until you are using all of the travel on the fork but not bottoming out.
    Last edited by DirtDiggler; 10-26-2010 at 11:23 AM.

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