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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Supple1
    Thanks! I am 175 w/ pads and a moderate to aggresive rider
    I'd start with
    1x 18.15
    1x12.1
    1x16.1
    1x14.1
    1x12mm OD (chainring) spacer

    If you find after that you want more LS damping, go to 2x 18.15. NB the intermediate shim 12.1 gives a platform style feel to the shock; doesn't bob, but opens up easily on hits. I like it a lot. Go with redline 10wt/5wt 70:30 or 80:20 as a good place to start. Hope that helps.
    Cheers, Steve

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevo the Devo
    I'd start with
    1x 18.15
    1x12.1
    1x16.1
    1x14.1
    1x12mm OD (chainring) spacer

    If you find after that you want more LS damping, go to 2x 18.15. NB the intermediate shim 12.1 gives a platform style feel to the shock; doesn't bob, but opens up easily on hits. I like it a lot. Go with redline 10wt/5wt 70:30 or 80:20 as a good place to start. Hope that helps.
    Cheers, Steve
    Awesome, thanks!

  3. #103
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    Does anyone know the purpose of the mid valve or bleed valve that is on the bottom side of the compression TST2 piston? Its one shim with a tiny spring behind it. It looks like it allows the compression circuit to bleed back into the rebound circuit. Since the spring and shim are pretty easy to open I'm wondering how adding a shim to it would effect the fork. Looks like it would slow down the bleed towards the end of the circuit and might prevent bottoming out.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebronze
    Does anyone know the purpose of the mid valve or bleed valve that is on the bottom side of the compression TST2 piston? Its one shim with a tiny spring behind it. It looks like it allows the compression circuit to bleed back into the rebound circuit. Since the spring and shim are pretty easy to open I'm wondering how adding a shim to it would effect the fork. Looks like it would slow down the bleed towards the end of the circuit and might prevent bottoming out.
    It is the oil return port like you speculated. It needs to be very free flowing.

    Heads up that my return shim is starting to deform due to the shim stack mod. It deformed where the oil enters the compression ports. So keep an eye on it. I'll have to put a new shim in there. It might have been due to a low oil situation I had.

    P

  5. #105
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    I am thinking of buying a 2009 55 ata/tst2 does this mod still work on the 2009 dampeners?

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigjp
    I am thinking of buying a 2009 55 ata/tst2 does this mod still work on the 2009 dampeners?
    I asked Marzocchi USA the same question and they said, yes.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.P
    It is the oil return port like you speculated. It needs to be very free flowing.

    Heads up that my return shim is starting to deform due to the shim stack mod. It deformed where the oil enters the compression ports. So keep an eye on it. I'll have to put a new shim in there. It might have been due to a low oil situation I had.

    P
    Hey Pat,
    FWIW, the shim in mine already had a bit of deformation before I performed the mod, so don't think that is the cause (at least not entirely). Easy enough to change though. Bronze, the rebound circuit is at the bottom of the damper ie there are separate pistons for compression and rebound (this is actually an orifice damper, not shimmed). I would be very reluctant to increase shim weight on the return side of your comp piston; as P said, it need to be very free flowing. If anything you would make it lighter, not stiffer. Note that this shim (really a check-plate) will have no effect on compression (ie bottom out resistance), only on rebound, and that in a negative way. If you want more BO resistance, either increase your spring rate, or increase HS comp damping with a less tapered (and stiffer) shim stack. Hope this helps. Cheers, Steve

  8. #108
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    So does anyone know if this mod can be done to the 2007 All Mountain 1 tst2 cartridge?

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevo the Devo
    If you want more BO resistance, either increase your spring rate, or increase HS comp damping with a less tapered (and stiffer) shim stack. Hope this helps. Cheers, Steve
    I ran it by Tom and he advised adding 10cc oil to the left fork leg. Oil height should be 45/50mm from top when fully compressed on that side. Since I left that leg stock it was never checked and a bit below that level.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barnsey
    So does anyone know if this mod can be done to the 2007 All Mountain 1 tst2 cartridge?
    This mod is for the 08/09 dampers only. The 07 and earlier are completely different.

    P

  11. #111
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    looks like all the tst2 forks are gone will this work with a 55 r?
    Leave no bolt untuned!

  12. #112
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    SLX, I think Jenson still has the xc600 with the TST2. If you need more than 140mm travel you could get the 55 R and then buy a TST cart from Zoke and perform the mod. In the past, zoke carts were really expensive though.

  13. #113
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    Maybe a slightly different question..

    Hey guys, I had a question. I have been riding my 55tst w/mod for about a month now, and I love it. One thing I noticed is that I'm having trouble finding the sweet spot for my air preload. The fact that the air pressure is too low to read on my pump doesn't help. What happens is my fork will feel way too soft spring-wise, I can basically bottom it out by pushing down, so I add air. But when I get the air and sag feeling good, there is alot of added stiction that comes with it. On the trail it feels like a light propedal setting is on, and it kind of has a "clicky" feel to it.

    Are you all also getting alot of stiction issues? I think it should be broken-in by now, I have put maybe 30 hours of aggressive riding on it. Also is there a rule-of-thumb for tuning the air gap vs. actual pressurized air in the left side?

    Oh yeah if it helps, my stack is 14, 16, 17, 18, 18 and stock oil weight.

    Thanks guys, this thread kicks a$$

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by cesper
    Hey guys, I had a question. I have been riding my 55tst w/mod for about a month now, and I love it. One thing I noticed is that I'm having trouble finding the sweet spot for my air preload.
    N1 on the mod.

    For air preload, someone gave me the idea to count pumps rather than read the guage as it was more accurate that way. So far it has worked perfect. For me 26 pumps of air (roughly 20psi - I'm 190 pounds geared up).

    The stiction should mellow with break in and a bath oil change.

    Turn the fork upside down for a minute and compress a few times before riding to get the oil to lube the full inside of the fork.

    Mine is butter now, but I remember the stiction.

    Now that my stiction is gone, I am riding much more on the shim stack (oil bypass minimally open) and am liking it more.

    P

  15. #115
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    I think we need our own sticker for this mod ala Push. How about "Pull" or "Yanked"

  16. #116
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    Ok so I came across another question....the shim on the other side of the piston w/ the wave washer, why is it there? To me it seems like it is designed to "open" on the rebound stroke, but stay closed on the comp. stroke. Would it work to remove that shim and let all the damping be controlled by the stack?

    I just took the damper out to change shims and it turns out I still don't know everything I thought I did.

    Thanks

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by cesper
    Ok so I came across another question....the shim on the other side of the piston w/ the wave washer, why is it there? To me it seems like it is designed to "open" on the rebound stroke, but stay closed on the comp. stroke. Would it work to remove that shim and let all the damping be controlled by the stack?

    I just took the damper out to change shims and it turns out I still don't know everything I thought I did.

    Thanks
    No. The ports which are blocked by the check plate are open on the side with the shim stack, so oil would essentially free bleed around the shims. The effect would be somewhat like having a MASSIVE orifice damper, so the shims would barely (if ever) come into play. At least thats what I think from memory of the piston. You would end up with very little LS and mid speed damping. Cheers, Steve

  18. #118
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    Small bump compliance mod?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.P
    I had some shims from a previous Manitou TPC project and from MXTech.com

    Tom was a huge help in giving us the ID and max OD of the shims. See here: http://forums.mtbr.com/shocks-suspension/marzocchi-55-tst2-set-up-help-needed-393052.html#post4289055 I went with a pyramid stack for a good balance of low speed and high speed compression in the shim stack.

    You can shape the stack to your needs. That is the beauty of this mod - improving your fork goes way beyond turning a knob. It is like doing what PUSH does (only without the dyno )

    What I was trying to achieve was allowing the orifice damper to still handle 50-75% of the duty, but when needed the shims would open removing any spike. The goal was to have a "platform" at what used to be lock-out (as mentioned above I did like the LO for fast climbing). This is why there are the number of shims I put in there. I might have put only 3 if I were to use the shims only for damping.

    I weigh 180.

    I just did another mod which is spring related that really opened up the small bump compliance. (I will post to another thread in a couple of days)

    P
    I was just wondering what this mod was? I'm getting ready to do the damper mod and thought I should go ahead and try this while I was at it. Thanks.

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cesarm31
    I was just wondering what this mod was? I'm getting ready to do the damper mod and thought I should go ahead and try this while I was at it. Thanks.
    The spring mod was reducing the coil spring preload. I removed the black, 20mm tall plastic "ring" or "tube" from the top of the coil spring, and in it's place put a 10mm tall, PVC "ring", that was the same diameter.

    This had the effect of removing the 10mm of preload that was on the coil.

    I haven't posted this mod as I think the fork works better with the original preload. Tho it was more active on small bumps with the mod, it was also more divey. And after break in, I just haven't needed that extra softness. It's already butter. I discovered that there is such a thing as too much butter.



    P

  20. #120
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    I see, well thanks a lot Mr. P. Oh and another question. I was wondering if you know of any any place other than MX-Tech.com, preferably in California, to order individual shims for the damper mod.

  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.P
    The spring mod was reducing the coil spring preload. I removed the black, 20mm tall plastic "ring" or "tube" from the top of the coil spring, and in it's place put a 10mm tall, PVC "ring", that was the same diameter.

    This had the effect of removing the 10mm of preload that was on the coil.


    P
    P, according to Marzocchi that black spacer is just a travel limiter. At least on my xc600 it was. I pulled it and i'm running the fork at 140. The 55 may be different, or it may be the same parts used on the 66 minus the spacer, who knows...

    I'm ready for the next mod. Have you guys thought about frankenforking this setup so the left side is all air? Might need a different piston and a way to limit the travel.

  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebronze
    P, according to Marzocchi that black spacer is just a travel limiter. At least on my xc600 it was. I pulled it and i'm running the fork at 140. The 55 may be different, or it may be the same parts used on the 66 minus the spacer, who knows...
    On the 55, the spacer goes on top of the spring at 160mm. Otherwise the spring does not make contact (too short - for the 140mm setting)

    Quote Originally Posted by thebronze
    I'm ready for the next mod. Have you guys thought about frankenforking this setup so the left side is all air? Might need a different piston and a way to limit the travel.
    I did a quick ride around the neighborhood, with the spring out and just air pressure. It worked, but I worried about consistency as it was using the oil as the piston, and the oil can slosh about, air get into the oil etc.

    I tried it for weight savings, ~250g for the spring, but then I would have to add oil (+ x grams) for end of stroke spring rate. So maybe even no weight savings in the end.

    I'm looking at adding an ATA cart for geometry adjustment and weight savings.

    P

  23. #123
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    has anyone tried the Enduro seals and wipers on this fork yet? I'm looking to do an oil change, the damper mod, and maybe the seals in one shot. I was wondering if they really make a difference at all since mine are still good. Are they a performance mod (less stiction)or just a better seal for the longetivity of the fork internals?

  24. #124
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    Enduro's are great but the first 20 miles its murder. Feels like the fork is locked out until they are broken in. But they last so much longer and have better tolerances than the stock. Plus they have blue ones which is cool.

  25. #125
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    Well since mine are still good, I think I'll wait until they start leaking before I get the enduro's. Thanks.

  26. #126
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    Hey, sorry for kidnapping this thread but you guys seem to know everything it needs to help me. Bought a 55 TST2 from Jenson recently thinking they wouldn't be selling the old faulty forks anymore. Well i was wrong there, after my third day of riding i have like 2 inches of travel left, for what i've been reading something went horribly wrong in the tst chamber. But what is it? Any suggestions on how to repair it? Don't wanna wait forever to get it repaired...
    Can't believe neither Marzocchi nor Jenson took those forks out of the shelfs...

    Thanx

  27. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by ddd666
    Hey, sorry for kidnapping this thread but you guys seem to know everything it needs to help me. Bought a 55 TST2 from Jenson recently thinking they wouldn't be selling the old faulty forks anymore. Well i was wrong there, after my third day of riding i have like 2 inches of travel left, for what i've been reading something went horribly wrong in the tst chamber. But what is it? Any suggestions on how to repair it? Don't wanna wait forever to get it repaired...
    Can't believe neither Marzocchi nor Jenson took those forks out of the shelfs...

    Thanx
    This happened to me last summer after a few rides in town and a trip to Colorado. Contact Marzocchi, get a RM #, mail it in and wait about two weeks (might have been a week and a half). Fork will come back better than new, as I haven't had an issue since I got it back. Now if only I could come up with the time to do this mod...

  28. #128
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    I cant narrow this stack down. Everything is cool in the rockgardens and at speed but in really tight turn the corner 3' drop ins i'm bottoming out. Heres my stack
    18
    17
    16
    16
    14
    12

    Feels like I need to stop the flow between 16-14. I think I may try putting an 18 in there. What do you guys think? I'd be happy with a little less LSC to start the travel and a lot more bottom end. Maybe 18, 16,16, 17, 14, 12. Already tried adding 10cc oil to the spring side. Still loving the fork. Props to zoke.

  29. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebronze
    I cant narrow this stack down. Everything is cool in the rockgardens and at speed but in really tight turn the corner 3' drop ins i'm bottoming out. Heres my stack
    18
    17
    16
    16
    14
    12

    Feels like I need to stop the flow between 16-14. I think I may try putting an 18 in there. What do you guys think? I'd be happy with a little less LSC to start the travel and a lot more bottom end. Maybe 18, 16,16, 17, 14, 12. Already tried adding 10cc oil to the spring side. Still loving the fork. Props to zoke.
    That shim stack looks pretty robust. Perhaps focus on the oil level on the spring side.

    I set my oil level based on ~10mm from bottom out on drops/jumps. When I add the shim stack compression (TST knob only 25% open) I get ~20mm from bottom out. That is my insurance for the "oh Sh*t" moments, one of which I had recently that used all travel but no "clank" bottom out.

    That air, end spring ramp up, allows us to be less heavy on the high speed compression, which is good for the high speed chunder.

    P

  30. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebronze
    I cant narrow this stack down. Everything is cool in the rockgardens and at speed but in really tight turn the corner 3' drop ins i'm bottoming out. Heres my stack
    18
    17
    16
    16
    14
    12

    Feels like I need to stop the flow between 16-14. I think I may try putting an 18 in there. What do you guys think? I'd be happy with a little less LSC to start the travel and a lot more bottom end. Maybe 18, 16,16, 17, 14, 12. Already tried adding 10cc oil to the spring side. Still loving the fork. Props to zoke.
    Hey Bronze,
    Are all the shims 0.1mm thick? If so and you want to try tweaking it further, maybe go for 18, 12, 17, 16, 16, 14 or 18, 17, 12, 16, 16, 14 and see how it works. Should open up easily for the smaller stuff, but then give you a bit more resistance to fast/big hits. Otherwise, back to oil height tuning as per P's suggestion. FWIW. Cheers, Steve

  31. #131
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    18, 12, 17, 16, 16, 18 is the ticket the low speed is so much better now. I think I went a little too aggro though and had oil leaking down the left fork leg. Might be time for some enduro's.

  32. #132
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    This thread rules.

    I did this mod to my TST2 on Saturday and the high speed dampening is much better. I can just go faster through stuff without spiking. I weigh 200#'s and I used Steves shim stack.

    Now, the only probs I have are bottoming out and having to add more air to keep the fork up (which makes it harsh on low speed). I added some oil to the left leg and that helped for bottoming out, but I might try something similar to the bronzes's stack....makes sense to hold you up more. Anyway, thanks to all for this great info.

  33. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by DirtDiggler
    I did this mod to my TST2 on Saturday and the high speed dampening is much better. I can just go faster through stuff without spiking. I weigh 200#'s and I used Steves shim stack.
    Nice! Keep us posting if you do more experimenting with the shim stack

    It's great to read about these different shim stack and their results.

    P

  34. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebronze
    18, 12, 17, 16, 16, 18 is the ticket the low speed is so much better now. I think I went a little too aggro though and had oil leaking down the left fork leg. Might be time for some enduro's.
    18 face shim, then
    12
    17
    16
    16
    18

    So you're using a 3-stage shimstack with only 6 shims?? Not to call you out or anything, but there's not a chance you're noticing each stage, much less getting any contact from deflection to that third stage. Having 18 as your top shim (not the face shim) is doing nothing more than a 16 or 17 would in the same spot too btw since your second stage is a 17 max. If you actually wanted that second stage to deflect back and get support from the 3rd stage, you'd need something much much smaller than the 2 16's in there (more like the 12's like you used for your first crossover shim).

    Or it was just a typo and I'm overthinking things....
    805

  35. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by DHidiot
    18 face shim, then
    12
    17
    16
    16
    18

    So you're using a 3-stage shimstack with only 6 shims?? Not to call you out or anything, but there's not a chance you're noticing each stage, much less getting any contact from deflection to that third stage. Having 18 as your top shim (not the face shim) is doing nothing more than a 16 or 17 would in the same spot too btw since your second stage is a 17 max. If you actually wanted that second stage to deflect back and get support from the 3rd stage, you'd need something much much smaller than the 2 16's in there (more like the 12's like you used for your first crossover shim).

    Or it was just a typo and I'm overthinking things....
    You tell me sports fan, i'm learning as I go. I ran the fork through the grinder today and bottomed it out a ton so I think i'm right back where I started. The only reason the face shim is 18mm OD is because thats what covers the OD of the piston ports. 16 or 17 would leave open port space on the piston.

    If youve got a lot of experience with shims help me out. This is what I want= plush LSC that ramps up to prevent bottoming out. I'd like to be able to flip the TST knob in the drops and not bottom out. My buddy's float glides right through at about 80% of travel being used and mines bottoming out almost every time. I was thinking of changing it to 18, 14, 18, 17, 16, 16, 12 but i'm open to suggestions

    Also, seems the more air I add the travel just gets really notchy and clunky. Is there any reason why they didnt put a standard air piston in here? Mine looks like a washer with a coil spring under it.

  36. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebronze
    If youve got a lot of experience with shims help me out. This is what I want= plush LSC that ramps up to prevent bottoming out. I'd like to be able to flip the TST knob in the drops and not bottom out. My buddy's float glides right through at about 80% of travel being used and mines bottoming out almost every time.
    Focus on the oil level on the spring side to effect the majority of the bottom out. It controls the end of travel spring ramp up. My oil level is around 65mm from the top, spring out, fork compressed.

    I could set the oil level properly (for me & riding) and run the damper wide open and still not bottom.

    What this means is that you can set the high speed compression to focus on high speed events, and let the air spring (oil level) handle bottom out. That way HSC feels good at speed, and you still have BO control.

    I run a pyramid shim stack as it is consistently progressive which allows me to open and easily adjust the TST port (free bleed) for LSC and use the shim stack for HSC.

    I run the TST "free bleed" only 25% open. The shim stack handles the rest.

    P

  37. #137
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    P, my oil level is 50mm from top per Tom's suggestions. I'm only bottoming it out in rock gardens w 3' steps that I have to pick slowly through. I'll try about 5 cc more on the spring side.

  38. #138
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    Bronze, I put about a quarter of a cup of oil in the left leg and it solved my bottoming. I'm still having issues with the fork staying up without putting a lot of air into it. I get way too much sag.

    I wonder what would happen if i put 1 (of the four) washers back in then 18, 17, 16, 16, 14, 17. Would that defeat the purpose?

    Maybe I just need to add more shims like 18, 18,17, 17, 16, 16, 15, 15 ect.

  39. #139
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    Ahh no worries then.

    Generally a 5-10 shim tall stack is only going to utilize 2 stages effectively. You'd need probably 15-20 and a REALLY wide face shim to make use of a 3 stage stack (you find these on factory works MX shocks and forks). Take the total stack in your hand and try to bend it back with a needle or something to get an idea of what the range of flexbility is once they're tightened down - it's surprisingly very little and all the shims behind the face shims just provide "support" when oil is being slammed through the ports at high speeds. You'll see pretty quickly how that upper stage in the stack you mentioned probably won't be getting engaged at all. The other issue with a single face shim and a small transition shim is that the face shim blows back SUPER easy, and that it may flow oil well enough when that happens that you'll never reach a shaft speed that will make use of the support in the second stage. The compression curves for a 2-stage stack are FUNKY looking, and fairly hard to set up with any sort of precision at an amateur level.

    You are correct though, the face shim MUST match up with the outer edge of the ports.

    All the valve is doing is controlling oil flow at different shaft speeds, not shaft positions. As someone else said, tune the air volume for bottom out.

    18, 14, 18, 17, 16, 16, 12 will have a super soft low speed with mid-speed and high-speed support, if it even engages and flexes the second stage. Try a straight taper stack first, maybe 18 17 16 14 12 12, or something else "neutral" looking before you start looking into 2 stage stacks.

    Remember, LSC is what's going to control your bikes attitude and keep the front end from diving and wallowing. HSC and the mid-speed transition are going to help you through g-outs and rocks, in combination with the oil height on large enough displacements.

    Hope that isn't too convoluded.

    Side note: Many professional MX tuners refuse to use a 2-stage stack in consumer suspension because they wear REAL fast. Instead of simply pressing against one another, they are tapping and rubbing each other on every compression, so they're usually found in the more racing "works" style forks and shocks.
    805

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    Great info DH!

    That makes sense. I think I'm going to try a taper stack like you said but double or triple up in the beggining for extra compression. I'm seeing something like this: 18,18,18,17,17,16,15,14,13,12,18,18

  41. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by DirtDiggler
    Great info DH!

    That makes sense. I think I'm going to try a taper stack like you said but double or triple up in the beggining for extra compression. I'm seeing something like this: 18,18,18,17,17,16,15,14,13,12,18,18
    Just a quick note, I changed my stack to 2x18.15 then 12.1, 16.1, 14.1, as I wasn't getting enough LS damping. With the transition shim this works really well. For reference, I remember reading that shim stiffness cubes with thickness; ie a .15mm shim is about 3.4 times as stiff as a .1mm. This may help to get some of the guesswork out of the stacks and be able to quantify changes in stiffness. DD, I very much doubt the last 18mm shim in you stack is doing anything at all, I think you would be much better to remove it and place it at the start of the stack instead. Just my 2c. Glad to hear everyone is still tuning! Cheers, Steve

  42. #142
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    DHi and I modified my fork about two months ago. My stack is 18, 16, 15, 14, 12 or there abouts. I finally put a zip tie on the stanchion yesterday and went for ride. Turns out I'm only getting about 145mm of travel. I even went off some 3-4 foot drops to flat on purpose to test the fork out. When DHi and put the shim stack in when didn't put a chain ring spacer.

    I'd like to know if my shim stack or lack of spacer is causing my lack of full travel.

  43. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nagaredama
    DHi and I modified my fork about two months ago. My stack is 18, 16, 15, 14, 12 or there abouts. I finally put a zip tie on the stanchion yesterday and went for ride. Turns out I'm only getting about 145mm of travel. I even went off some 3-4 foot drops to flat on purpose to test the fork out. When DHi and put the shim stack in when didn't put a chain ring spacer.

    I'd like to know if my shim stack or lack of spacer is causing my lack of full travel.
    The lack of spacer would not cause loss of travel.

    Are you running the lock out knob fully closed? Or just a bit open? That is how I run mine, and due to the additional damping during drops & jumps, I had to reduce my spring side oil level to get full travel. I think I am at 75mm now from a previous 60mm. And I only get full travel on oh sh*t moments otherwise I get 150mm.

    On a side note, did the shims tighten against the piston?

    P

  44. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.P
    The lack of spacer would not cause loss of travel.
    Good to know!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.P
    Are you running the lock out knob fully closed? Or just a bit open? That is how I run mine, and due to the additional damping during drops & jumps, I had to reduce my spring side oil level to get full travel. I think I am at 75mm now from a previous 60mm. And I only get full travel on oh sh*t moments otherwise I get 150mm.
    I've run it full open to fully closed and everywhere in between. Typically I ride it in the middle. I'll check how much oil I have in the spring side tomorrow. When I emptied the air pre-load I was able to get a bit more travel out of it by bouncing up and down on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.P
    On a side note, did the shims tighten against the piston?
    99% sure they were. I know they weren't moving around when I tightened everything down. This week I'll take it apart and snap some pictures.

  45. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.P
    On a side note, did the shims tighten against the piston?

    P
    Yes, the shimstack was preloaded.
    805

  46. #146
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    Help a newbie mod an '07 All Mountain 1 TST2

    Hi all, I have a 2007 Marzocchi All Mountain 1. It has ETA in the left leg and TST2 in the right leg and 160mm travel. At first I thought TST2 was compression damping, but it turns out it is just lockout with no settings in between. My problem is that I get too much fork dive and the only solution is to increase the spring rate by adding air to the ETA side, at the cost of ride harshness and travel. So, I got pretty excited when I saw this mod and I definitely want to try it so I can get adjustable compression damping with an adjustable platform. I was looking at the Rock Shox Revelation with Motion Control and Floodgate but the Marz was cheaper

    Anyway, I have never done fork mods before so I have a few basic questions:

    1. Will this mod work with my fork? The TST2 knob is different for me than for the 55, but the cartridge is probably the same (or it would not be called TST2, right?). Just want to confirm this.

    2. Where do you guys get shims of the appropriate size?

    3. Is there a way to do this mod without using a ground-down socket to remove the TST2 cartridge? I don't have easy access to a machine shop.

    4. Am I going to need fork buy fork oil (in case of a spill or whatever)? What kind of oil should I use and where can I find it? I'm 170lbs with gear if that helps.

    5. My fork is pretty new, so if I am careful I hope not to damage any seals in the disassembly/reassembly process. Should I have spare seals lying around just in case?

    Looking forward to your replies.

  47. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by derailin_palin
    Hi all, I have a 2007 Marzocchi All Mountain 1
    Sorry, the 07 is a completely different system. My understanding is that fork dive is best controlled by the spring.

    P

  48. #148
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    So I guess my only option is to swap TST2 for TST micro?

    EDIT: Or perhaps replace TST2 with RC2? Thanks for the quick reply btw, great forum!

  49. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.P
    Sorry, the 07 is a completely different system. My understanding is that fork dive is best controlled by the spring.

    P
    Wow you are right. The manual for 2007 forks says:

    The TST2 handles fork behaviour in compression and rebound by virtue of revolutionary system valves. The TST2 system uses a sealed cartridge completely full of oil.
    The TST2 cartridge has a valve through which it is possible to pressurise the sealed cartridge
    Damn them and their sealed carts

  50. #150
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    Is this new bottom part included w/ the 09 tst2 forks? Where would one find these shims?
    "The original concept of freeriding was that there was no set course, goals or rules to abide by. "
    Mountain Riders

  51. #151
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    Hey guys,

    Wondering if there is a similar thread (I tried searching but gave up after an hour or so), or if someone can point me to instructions with pretty pictures for lowering an 08 55 tst 2 from 160mm to 135-ish mm?

    Great thread by the way.

  52. #152
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    Dan, if the pumping rod on the 55 is similar to the XC600 rod then its just a matter of putting a spacer under the spring. This should be possible since the 55R is sold at 140mm travel and the 55TST is 160. The two forks most likely share the same parts except for the TST cart. I would call zoke and ask them to be sure but it should be possible.

  53. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by handsomedan
    lowering an 08 55 tst 2 from 160mm to 135-ish mm?
    Reverse these instructions (140->160) will take you to 140mm

    http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=216889

    P

  54. #154
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    Hey P, regarding the check plate which gets bent after some time with the conversion, have you replaced yours yet? I noticed that it is .1mm thick; do you think a .15mm replacement would give a more durable checkplate without affecting rebound function? Cheers, Steve

  55. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevo the Devo
    Hey P, regarding the check plate which gets bent after some time with the conversion, have you replaced yours yet? I noticed that it is .1mm thick; do you think a .15mm replacement would give a more durable checkplate without affecting rebound function? Cheers, Steve
    Hey Steve, I am now running 2 .10 shims on the checkplate, but haven't ridden enough (only 3 times) and haven't pulled it out to see if there is any deformation.

    But it hasn't had any negative rebound effects.

    I think almost all the opening of the checkplate is through the spring so you should be good.

    P

  56. #156
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    I have a new shim stack update. I am running all .10 shims:
    18mm
    17mm
    16mm
    14mm
    12mm

    It feels pretty soft, to the point that I run all damping through the shim stack. And it still feels just a bit soft.

    I do prefer running the damping completely through the shims rather than using the freebleed as it feels more controlled in all situations, braking, tech, but still feels butter.

    I am looking to try one or two more shims. I am a big believer in going too little and to far to confirm a sweetspot.

    I love that I can make a shim change in 10 minutes.

    P

  57. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.P
    I have a new shim stack update. I am running all .10 shims:
    18mm
    17mm
    16mm
    14mm
    12mm

    It feels pretty soft, to the point that I run all damping through the shim stack. And it still feels just a bit soft.

    I do prefer running the damping completely through the shims rather than using the freebleed as it feels more controlled in all situations, braking, tech, but still feels butter.

    I am looking to try one or two more shims. I am a big believer in going too little and to far to confirm a sweetspot.

    I love that I can make a shim change in 10 minutes.

    P
    Hey P,
    Try 3 18's, I reckon that will be about right; if not, drop it back to just 2 18's. Thanks for the checkplate update, my feeling also was that the spring is the main contributor, so I think I will get a .15 to pop in (as its stronger than 2x .1's). Cheers, Steve

  58. #158
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    So whats the point of the 12mm spacer? Do you need it? Where would I get a 12mm (w/8mm ID) chain ring spacer?

  59. #159
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    I don't think you need it. I don't run it on my setup and it works fine. Just try to duplicate the overall length of the piston. If you remove 4mm of spacers replace it with 4mm of shims.

  60. #160
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    sweet, thanks man.

  61. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevo the Devo
    Hey P,
    Try 3 18's, I reckon that will be about right; if not, drop it back to just 2 18's
    Hey Steve, sorry I missed this before.

    Thanks for the tip. I was wondering where to add the next shim. I'll try what you suggest and report back

    P

  62. #162
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    Great thread guys, really good info :-)

    I picked up these forks yesterday, they were OEM on a Kona coilair and got a good price on em just three rides old.

    I want to try this shim stacking mod as it soumds great, just have a couple of questions if you don't mind helping out.

    1) The shim stack 'face shim' is the one that is touching the face of the piston right? there are no washers between the face shim and the piston? This needs to be 18mm OD to cover the port?

    2) Do the shims have washers between them to seperate them, or do they stack directly against each other?

    3) How is the stack retained against the piston, is it the 10mm nut and the chainring spacer that hold them against the face of the piston?

    4) Earlier in the thread there was a mention of washers with "11mm ID and 11mm OD by 1mm thick" which looks like a typo (or they would be very thin washers ;-) ) . were these washers for seperating the shims on the stack?

    Be very grateful if you could answer these for me so I can have a go at the mod. Just got to find somewhere in the UK to get the shims now

  63. #163
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    Hi all - just found this thread and I'm wondering if this mod will work on my '09 44ata fork with TST2? (i.e. are the cartridges the same?) If so, I'll be back for more specific advice

    Thanks.

    JZ
    It's not about speed, it's about lack of control.

  64. #164
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    Thought I'd revisit this thread after 4 months on a fox float RL. The float is much smoother at low speed, rides higher in the travel, and the stroke is machine like compared to the zokes notchiness. But i'm really missing the adjustable damping on the zoke. The float really spikes on high speed roots where the zoke just ate everything up at speed. I'm brainstorming about a 55 with the TST2 shim mod and a straight air spring ala the float. I believe Zoke will offer something similar in 2010.

  65. #165
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    A TPC marzocchi.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz and NZ Manitou Agent.
    www.dougal.co.nz Suspension setup & tuning.
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  66. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal
    A TPC marzocchi.
    Yep. But with a nice progressive air assist spring.

    P

  67. #167
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    Finally sourced some shims in the UK and got this done. Fantastic mod, totally changed the way the fork works, and now feels like my '05 66rc :-D. Totally changed the way the bike feels on fast DHs

    Thanks for putting this thread up and to all who recommended shim stack sizes and the other info. The blowtorch tip was great for getting the 10mm bolt out.

    Ended up with the following setting as a first attempt. It feels great but just needs a little more resistance to diving under braking:

    18mm (0.15mm), 18mm (0.1mm), 17mm (0.1mm), 16mm (0.1mm),16mm (0.1mm),14mm (0.1mm), 12mm (0.1mm), original spacer plus another small spacer. Total length of shims plus spacers is 3mm.

    Using Motorex 5wt synthetic oil, 50mm oil height (compressed) on spring side and 110mm oil height (extended) on TST2 side. Air pressure about 35psi

    I'm about 16 stone kitted up and it seems to work really nicely now. Just got to try a two stage stack now and see if there is a difference.

  68. #168
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    Andy what fork did you mod? My xc600 had no brake dive at all. Try closing the TST knob a click or two. This will port more oil into the shim stack and less through the free bleed.

    How do you compare the TST shim feel to the RC damper on your 66?

  69. #169
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    It's on a 55 TST2. I was running the TST control know fully open, as the high speed sensetivity seemed to suffer slightly with it closed. With it closed a bit it did help with the diving but it just felt a little harsher on the small stuff.

    The two sets of 66s I've had, '05 RCs and '07 SL1ATAs were superb. Small bumps just weren't there no matter what speed you were going and they were nicely adjustable for the bigger hits too. The compression adjust on the RC2 cartridge was excellent but I think it was a low speed compression adjust. It's the RC2x system that has high speed compression adjust in the spring side leg.

    I tried to fit the RC2 cartridge into the 55 chassis, and the bottom bolts in just fine. The top cap is a smaller diameter though and just dropped into the 55 leg without engaging the threads. Bit gutted about that :-(

    I'll keep playing with the shim stack, maybe replace the 18x0.15 with an 18x0.1 or put a larger shim in the middle of the stack. As Mr P says you can get to it in 10 min and alter all the settings :-)

  70. #170
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    ... plus ETA??...

    Soooo, i've got a few buds who recently bought Coilairs. Nice bikes, everyone is happy except one thing.. yeah, the forks. All have hydro lock syndrome, and even though the LBS is getting new TST2 cartridges from Marzocchi, im not sure its gonna fix the problem.

    This shim stack conversion seems like the best option to me, and easy at that. But there is one more thing which is really intriguing to me.. the possibility of ETA. In 2008 Marzocchi had the 55 ETA, so im wondering if its possible to get those cartridges seperately, and put them into these 55 TST2 forks. I believe that those ETA cartridges also have air preload valves, because they were coupled with TSTmicro which has no air preload valve.

    Anyways, sounds like almost perfect to me.. 160mm travel, 20mm TA, 35mm stanchions, shim stacked damper, low speed compression, and ETA to boot. As long as the ETA cartridge isnt too expensive, in the end it could be a pretty wicked fork for little $$.

    Anybody know if the ETA idea is a go??? And can hydro locking still happen on the 2008 TST2 even after the shim stack mod?
    Last edited by PsyCro; 07-22-2009 at 08:03 AM.

  71. #171
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    Edit : Beaten to it by Mr P

    Can't help with the ETA, but try the guy at Marz tech support on here as he seems really helpful.

    The 55 TST2 forks I have converted are from a base model coilair and the difference is amazing. They are soooooooo much better with the shims mod done.

    The shim mod doesn't cure the hydro locking issue, but if you do the shim mod it will teach you how to fix the hydro lock problem on a temporary basis by lowering the oil level in the TST2 cartridge back to the correct level.

    from the info that Mr P and other have posted up, it sounds as if the hydro lock is caused by the lube oil from the main fork leg being forced into the TST cart via the cap at the base of the cartridge. The fix seems to be a replacement base cap or whole new cart from marz.

    Loook at the start of this thread and Mr P links to the TST2 bleed thread that will tell your buds how to temporarily fix their forks until the lbs has the parts.
    Last edited by AndyPP; 07-22-2009 at 11:27 AM.

  72. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsyCro
    Anybody know if the ETA idea is a go??? And can hydro locking still happen on the 2008 TST2 even after the shim stack mod?
    ETA is a go as it resides in the other leg. You just have to call up Marzocchi to see if they have the parts.

    Hydrolocking should be fixed with the updated TST2 cartridge.

    P

  73. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimZinVT
    Hi all - just found this thread and I'm wondering if this mod will work on my '09 44ata fork with TST2? (i.e. are the cartridges the same?) If so, I'll be back for more specific advice

    Thanks.

    JZ
    Hi Jim,
    The internals of your fork should be identical to the XC600 from 2008, so you are good to go! This is the fork which I modded, so check my posts as a good starting point (esp note the difference in oil height). Happy tuning
    Cheers, Steve

  74. #174
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    Great thread. does this apply to the 33 TST2 shock as well

    Thanks!!

  75. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ohfugit
    Great thread. does this apply to the 33 TST2 shock as well

    Thanks!!
    No reason why it shouldn't, as long as the tst2 cartridge is the same design. The amount of oil you use will be different to the 55, however. If it is the same size cart as a 44, oil height will be 75-80mm from the top. Justoverfill it, and cycle it a few times, letting any excess oil spill out (into a catch bucket of course.)

  76. #176
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    Tuning a stack

    Instead of trying to use a crossover shim to soften the low speed damping a backer shim might work better to stiffen the high speed damping. With a backing shim you can tune the gapper thickness to change the suspension velocity where the backer kicks in.


    and change the backer thickness to control the stiffness of the high speed damping.


    You can tune the gapper by the seat of the pants or use a tool like ReStackor to design the stack and control the point where the backer kicks in.

    The other thing you can do with ReStackor is weight scale a stack. Suppose you wanted to try out AndyPP's stack tuned for a sixteen stone rider (18.15, 18.1, 17.1, 2x16.1, 14.1, 12.1). ReStackor will scale the stack based on spring rate which is pretty much the same thing as rider weight for a mountain bike. The scaled stack looks like this:


    That stack would adjust the damping rate to give the same "ride" for a 13 stone rider.

    Check it out: www.shimrestackor.com

  77. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by clicked
    Instead of trying to use a crossover shim to soften the low speed damping a backer shim might work better to stiffen the high speed damping. With a backing shim you can tune the gapper thickness to change the suspension velocity where the backer kicks in.....www.shimrestackor.com
    Thanks for posting that up

    Do you think we have enough velocity in MTB forks to run a gapper?

    P

  78. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.P
    Thanks for posting that up

    Do you think we have enough velocity in MTB forks to run a gapper?

    P
    +1 Great post!!!!


    I think we have enough speeds for a gapper... Zoke shocks use one. But I don't know if that extrapolates well to a fork....

    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/8511008@N05/1897364703/" title="Roco Damper04 by Warpo, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2409/1897364703_94d608b447.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="Roco Damper04" /></a>
    Check my Site

  79. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp
    +1 Great post!!!!


    I think we have enough speeds for a gapper... Zoke shocks use one. But I don't know if that extrapolates well to a fork....

    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/8511008@N05/1897364703/" title="Roco Damper04 by Warpo, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2409/1897364703_94d608b447.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="Roco Damper04" /></a>
    I suspect those stop washers aren't part of the tuning as much as preventing the shims over-flexing and damaging themselves.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz and NZ Manitou Agent.
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  80. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.P
    Thanks for posting that up

    Do you think we have enough velocity in MTB forks to run a gapper?

    P
    If you put a tall gapper shim in, the stack will never hit the backer. If the gapper is paper thin the stack will hit the backer when you just sit on the bike. So it is relative.

    I stole your picture off of the first page to make a guess at the compression piston diameter. I got 20mm. That diameter produces a good amount of oil flow through the piston and the piston only has two ports. So, based on the piston diameter, port geometry, oil flow and stack stiffness the ReStackor calculations show the stack hits the backer at a suspension velocity of about 50 in/sec.


    These equations are from the ReStackor web site for computing average suspension velocities over a bump.


    If you are moving at 20 mph and hit a one inch bump you have a suspension velocity around 50 in/sec. This figure is for a 27" motorcycle tire so it probably needs some corrections, but close enough for web work Eh?


    The shims will hit the backer, even on a fairly modest bump.

    But the bigger point is you can tune the shim stack stiffness and gapper height to make the stack hit the backer at whatever suspension velocity you want. You just have to tune it.

  81. #181
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    any updates? very intriguing thread.. should have my 55 tst this week.. can't wait to crack it open..
    "The future belongs to those that believe in the beauty of their dreams."

  82. #182
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    New question here. shims...

    Anybody know where i can order shims online inside of Europe??

  83. #183
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    Sooo, it's a philosophy/economic strategy issue?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Warp
    If they're the closed cartridge type (not bladder), yes. Most probably.
    Great thread OP. Fantastic work.

    Just got an 09 55 ATA w TST2 hence googling for info. Found this thread. TST2 knob feels v sloppy/loose, but is not wanting to come off without a fight. Have ordered an exchange. When it shows, if it's perfect, I'll keep it as is until it needs a service and then.... But, if neither of them's perfect, I might crack one open and poke around. And if I'm in there......thanks to the OP.....I may as well...do the mod.
    Thanks again to the OP and all who contributed.
    Last edited by Ecogeek; 10-23-2009 at 02:35 AM.

  84. #184
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    Hardware store, or online.

    Quote Originally Posted by PsyCro
    Anybody know where i can order shims online inside of Europe??
    Seems you need 'valving shims'. From a motorcyle store perhaps. This place has them. http://mx-tech.com/?id=products&subcat=153
    Dunno if they sell to Europe.
    Anyone know any other suppliers?
    Last edited by Ecogeek; 10-23-2009 at 03:05 AM.

  85. #185
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    Does anyone know if this mod will work for the 55 ata2? One side has the tst2 and the other side is the ata with only 1 air adjuster on the bottom of the fork. I had the fork sent back to marzocchi and they replaced the '08 tst2 with the '09 tst2. Is there any difference between '08 and '09?

  86. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwilcox
    Does anyone know if this mod will work for the 55 ata2? One side has the tst2 and the other side is the ata with only 1 air adjuster on the bottom of the fork. I had the fork sent back to marzocchi and they replaced the '08 tst2 with the '09 tst2. Is there any difference between '08 and '09?
    Yes, it will work fine. No diff between 08 and 09 except that 09 generally works...

  87. #187
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    Good to know. Thanks for the reply.

  88. #188
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    how much beer does it take to clamp a tube to your damper with vice grips? I want to make sure I am prepared...

  89. #189
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    1-2; any more and you may end up clamping your damper to a beerbottle with a tube...

  90. #190
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    Anyone know if this problem still persists with the '2010 55 TST2?? If so will this mod remedy it aswell?

  91. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by wickedone31
    Anyone know if this problem still persists with the '2010 55 TST2?? If so will this mod remedy it aswell?
    The problem that TST2 is a lockout feature???
    Quote Originally Posted by the_owl
    Everytime you ride in mud, god kills a kitten.

  92. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by stiingya
    The problem that TST2 is a lockout feature???
    well it was said that it remedies the problem many people had with Hydrolock, and the fork bottoming to only 3" of travel. I am wondering is people are still experienceing the problem with the 2010 fork?

  93. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by wickedone31
    well it was said that it remedies the problem many people had with Hydrolock, and the fork bottoming to only 3" of travel. I am wondering is people are still experienceing the problem with the 2010 fork?
    Getting the oil level right cures the travel, and that and changing the dampener characteristics can fix hydrolock, but neither of those issues are caused by the TST2 in the first place cause it's just a lockout...
    Quote Originally Posted by the_owl
    Everytime you ride in mud, god kills a kitten.

  94. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by wickedone31
    well it was said that it remedies the problem many people had with Hydrolock, and the fork bottoming to only 3" of travel. I am wondering is people are still experienceing the problem with the 2010 fork?
    Don't know for sure, but I think the QC issues have all been resolved now.

  95. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp
    +1 Great post!!!!


    I think we have enough speeds for a gapper... Zoke shocks use one. But I don't know if that extrapolates well to a fork....

    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/8511008@N05/1897364703/" title="Roco Damper04 by Warpo, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2409/1897364703_94d608b447.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="Roco Damper04" /></a>



    I looked at this picture and decided to use one of the 4 original lockout washers that came on damper as a gapper just to see if it would help. I have the shims lined up in a pyramid stack then a 1.5mm thick spacer then the washer at the end. I definitely notice more compression now, both low and high speed, probably because the washer is not allowing the shims to flex out nearly as far. Now I'm thinking about making a real stopper gapper with holes drilled out like the picture above to let the oil flow through better. The gapper seems to really impact the compression on this bike compared to just shims alone.

    Another thing: Since shimming my fork (without the gapper) I notice almost no difference using the TST open or closed. I'm not sure if this has something to do with fork oil weight or the stack I'm using, but the TST feels the same in any position now. With stopper washer in I seem to notice about 30% more compression when in the lockout position on fork.

  96. #196
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    Is this right?

    Amazing! Great job.

    I got cracking and here's what I've got. The outer diameter of the damper piston on my setup is much larger than that of my 18mm shim. This leaves a large open gap before my stack begins. This can't be right can it?

    Thanks for the help!

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  97. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by masonmax
    Amazing! Great job.

    I got cracking and here's what I've got. The outer diameter of the damper piston on my setup is much larger than that of my 18mm shim. This leaves a large open gap before my stack begins. This can't be right can it?

    Thanks for the help!

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    The gap shown in the pic should be the oil return circuit, which you do not want covered. The other piston holes that do not go to the outer edge is what you want to cover.

    P

  98. #198
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    the shims only have to cover the compression oil ports (which are a obscured by the shims in the pic). The open gap with the cutout is for oil to flow on the rebound stroke.

  99. #199
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    I see now. So since I have the compression oil ports fully covered I should be okay? I have ridden my modded fork and everything feels good but I am still having bottoming issues. I weigh about 200# and ride somewhat aggressively (moderate jumps and drops). My stack right now is 18, 18, 17, 17, 16, 14, 13. I double checked my oil level and it is at 110 mm from the top when fully extended. Any ideas would be much appreciated!

  100. #200
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    Yep, I had the same exact problem. I weigh exactly the same as you as well.

    The solution is to add a little oil to the right leg (Non TST/compression side). This not only takes care of bottoming, you can also tailor the progressive-ness.

    Basically the more oil you put in the sooner in the stroke it will ramp up.

    Here's a trick, add about an 1/8 cup to the non TST leg and hit the trail. If it's ramping up too soon and you are not getting enough travel just flip the bike upside down and press in the air valve in to purge some of the oil out. Be careful! It will shoot out quickly so bring a rag to keep the oil from getting everywhere. Hit the trail again, test and repeat the oil purging until you are using all of the travel on the fork but not bottoming out.
    Last edited by DirtDiggler; 10-26-2010 at 11:23 AM.

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