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  1. #1
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    Inverted X-Fusion


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    Quote Originally Posted by honns View Post
    Read the article

    It boils down to less unsprung weight (mass not supported by the suspension) that allows the suspension to react quicker to impacts, with another plus being that the fork's lubrication oil is likely to spend more time around the seals and bushings, thereby keeping the fork running smooth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by honns View Post
    If you had read the article you'd have already found the answer.

    edit: whisperer beat me to it!

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    Missed the important paragraph, it would seem.

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    If it becomes available, I will be the first in line to buy it. I want to upgrade my Lyrik to a Vengeance anyway, and I have always been a huge USD fork fan. At 155lbs, its a match made in heaven.

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    " Why would X-Fusion, among others, pursue an inverted design, especially when it presents such a design challenge? It boils down to less unsprung weight (mass not supported by the suspension) that allows the suspension to react quicker to impacts, with another plus being that the fork's lubrication oil is likely to spend more time around the seals and bushings, thereby keeping the fork running smooth. "


    there you go
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  7. #7
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    So sick! Hopefully they build it and it works.

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    Plus they look amazing! If they do nail the stiffness issues, they could be onto a winner with that fork.
    I don't crash, I just have slightly uncontrolled dismounts!

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    Can anyone explain to me why all motocross bikes use inverted forks but mtb uses standard? I'm a mechanical engineer but this has me stumped. My buddy that rides both says Honda came out with a standard MX fork once but then everyone complained it was too flexy!?!?

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    Yea, I see the benefits now. I'm with ryguy, why did the motorcycle world move to inverted? Seems like if it works better for the motorcycle world, it would also work better for MTB.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ryguy135 View Post
    Can anyone explain to me why all motocross bikes use inverted forks but mtb uses standard? I'm a mechanical engineer but this has me stumped. My buddy that rides both says Honda came out with a standard MX fork once but then everyone complained it was too flexy!?!?
    Just guessing...maybe cause MTb has only recently had thru axle type connections. Couldn't do inverted with old style 9mm bicycle dropouts.
    whatever...

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    Quote Originally Posted by steadite View Post
    Just guessing...maybe cause MTb has only recently had thru axle type connections. Couldn't do inverted with old style 9mm bicycle dropouts.
    Good guess, but this can't be it. Fox had a prototype inverted DH fork that Aaron Gwin had been spotted doing practice runs on at World Cup races. Here maybe 6 months ago though they made an official announcement saying they were abandoning development citing excessive flex as the reason.

  13. #13
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    The larger diameter stanchions on motocross bikes allow for extra stiffness. There have been many attempts at inverted mtb forks, but larger riders still complain of flex. If someone makes a stiff USD fork, it would take over.

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    I have enough scratches on my fork lowers that I wouldn't want my delicate stanchions to be in that area.

    This fork is stiffer than a standard fork in certain ways (front-back motion, for example), but seems much less stiff against the wheel tilting from side to side due to independent leg compressions.

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    Assuming this fork ever makes it to production, I would be very surprised if it doesnt come with stanchion guards similar to what comes on the Manitou Dorado or White Brothers Groove. I would think they just kept them out of the picture to give a better look at the fork.

    Its long been said that to make a bicycle USD fork stiff enough(twisting wise), for larger riders and extremely aggressive riders, a larger diameter axle would be required. Manitous 20mm Hex axle is suppose to be the best thing at 20mm, but still suffers from some flex. At this point, nobody wants to make a 25mm axled fork that comes with a hub. They dont feel the market is big enough to have the inconvenience.

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    Quote Originally Posted by honns View Post
    Benefits are what, exactly?
    It looks badass.

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    Quote Originally Posted by steadite View Post
    Just guessing...maybe cause MTb has only recently had thru axle type connections. Couldn't do inverted with old style 9mm bicycle dropouts.
    Marzocchi were doing 20mm inverted Shivers in 2002, they were great forks relative to what else was available (like Psylos...) but did suffer from left-right twisting. Mine didn't, but I was 14 and weighed bugger all, big guys could get visible flap out of them.

    My guess is X Fusion have taken the keyed stanchions from the HiLo post and applied them to the inverted fork. If one little stanchion can resist twisting at the saddle, then two bigger ones bolted together should have no problems at the front wheel. As long as they stay in the uppers and avoid the wiper seals that should solve any twist issues.

    Regardless, I definately want one!

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    Another issue so far with USD forks being stiffer is the weight. They are already heavier than most big forks on the market and to get a stiffer fork, you will need to either find a killer design or use stronger, but heavier materials and structure. And I'm pretty sure an inverted motocross fork weights a lot more than any MTB fork already. But I'm pretty sure they're gonna come up with something good one day, as carbon fiber, titanium, magnesium and other superior materials are being used in better ways and designs.
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    I dont know, 4.3lbs for a 160mm fork is pretty damn light. Dorado's are pretty light at 6.6 lbs as well. There used to be a carbon legged Dorado but at 2400msrp, it didn't last very long.

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    There's a reason every USB single crown fork has failed in the bicycle market. Without a second crown the fork cannot be made stiff enough without making it weigh a ton. Aside from that you're still dealing with more easily damaged stanchions and less wear/damage tolerant seals. Then at the end of the day the benefits from going USD on a bicycle are questionable.

    On a motorcycle weight doesn't matter nearly as much and USD forks can be beefed up to be stiff enough. You can also run tighter and better seals since the weight of the motorcycle makes it more tolerant of stiction.

    I really like X-Fusion, but it makes me sad they're wasting their resources on a evolutionary dead end.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bad mechanic View Post
    There's a reason every USB single crown fork has failed in the bicycle market. Without a second crown the fork cannot be made stiff enough without making it weigh a ton. Aside from that you're still dealing with more easily damaged stanchions and less wear/damage tolerant seals. Then at the end of the day the benefits from going USD on a bicycle are questionable.

    On a motorcycle weight doesn't matter nearly as much and USD forks can be beefed up to be stiff enough. You can also run tighter and better seals since the weight of the motorcycle makes it more tolerant of stiction.

    I really like X-Fusion, but it makes me sad they're wasting their resources on a evolutionary dead end.
    But they look so coooooooool

    I've become a fan of X-Fusion stuff, but I am also a bit concerned about heading down this path. They already make good stuff that is way cheaper than the competition. Why not just go head-on into the DH scene with a traditional fork. There are no shortage of poor downhillers who will appreciate the value.

    I'll try to withhold judgement though. I hope its totally badass.

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    Just for fun. 2002 Marzocchi Shiver SC. My wife's retro Klunker.

  23. #23
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    Interesting note.

    There is an interview with the DVO suspension guys in this month's Dirt. There are no pictures but apparently DVO's new downhill fork will be inverted as well.

    Inverted revival time?

  24. #24
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    You can't say they have all failed since a couple companies still make USD mtb forks. You can't say weight for motorcycles doesn't matter either. People spend hundreds of dollars on TI bolts for motocross bikes just to save a pound. The flex issue is real though, and its caused by the stanchions being able to twist inside the uppers. If x fusion had found a way to solve this, and they sound confident that they did, it could be a great step forward. Anyone who has ridden on a USD fork loves the feel they give, other then the twisting of course.

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    Isn't Paul Turner of Maverick Bikes now in league with X-Fusion? I love my DUC32 forks for trail duty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    You can't say they have all failed since a couple companies still make USD mtb forks. You can't say weight for motorcycles doesn't matter either. People spend hundreds of dollars on TI bolts for motocross bikes just to save a pound. The flex issue is real though, and its caused by the stanchions being able to twist inside the uppers. If x fusion had found a way to solve this, and they sound confident that they did, it could be a great step forward. Anyone who has ridden on a USD fork loves the feel they give, other then the twisting of course.
    I said every single crown USD fork has failed, and they have. All the successful ones are dual crown, because the second crown is critical to making it stiff enough. A motorcycle, and motorcycle rider, is much more tolerant of an extra couple pounds on a fork considering the added performance, while on a bicycle an extra 100g is unacceptable.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by bad mechanic View Post
    I said every single crown USD fork has failed, and they have. All the successful ones are dual crown, because the second crown is critical to making it stiff enough. A motorcycle, and motorcycle rider, is much more tolerant of an extra couple pounds on a fork considering the added performance, while on a bicycle an extra 100g is unacceptable.
    My bad, I read it on my phone and some how missed "single crown"

    I still disagree on the weight issue though. 4.3lbs is very light. Lyriks and a regular vengeance is close to 5lbs. Even if it was 100g more, I dont think that would be unacceptable if it performed well.

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    I'm only guessing, but would it be possible that X-Fusion will put something similar needle bearing that Leftys have? Probably it's enough to put this kind of tech to the air/brake side and it will solve all issues that may come from the single crown and "only" 20mm thru-axle design.
    I'm looking forward for more info about the tech of this USD fork.
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  29. #29
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    Keying the stanchions still doesn't prevent independent leg compression.

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    Quote Originally Posted by beanbag View Post
    Keying the stanchions still doesn't prevent independent leg compression.
    No, but I would venture to say it would help with independent leg rotation. Maybe we ought to bring back the 24mm front axle to help mitigate independent leg compression.

    I wonder what my DUC32 would handle like if the stanchions were 36mm and keyed.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by beanbag View Post
    Keying the stanchions still doesn't prevent independent leg compression.
    But on a bike where both stanchions are connected by the thru axle and receiving forces from the same point is there any independent compression to prevent at all?

    I don't ever recall seeing it on motos, or even Dorados and Shivers. Twisting and fore-aft bending always seem to be the bug bears on mtb forks, especially the latter.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fix the Spade View Post
    But on a bike where both stanchions are connected by the thru axle and receiving forces from the same point is there any independent compression to prevent at all?

    I don't ever recall seeing it on motos, or even Dorados and Shivers. Twisting and fore-aft bending always seem to be the bug bears on mtb forks, especially the latter.
    Particularly since the spring and damper are in different legs, yes. But it's not a problem. a well designed 20mm axle is plenty burly enough to handle it. As has been noted, twisting is the biggest issue with an inverted fork, especially a single crown. The keyed stanchion thing should help there.

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    I dont think independent leg compression is much of an issue. Its more about the stanchions spinning in the uppers that is the problem. Keying them would make a huge difference, but would make sealing them a problem.

    I will be very interested to read about the tech that they are using to help solve the problem. The Vengeance is one of the stiffest 160mm forks out right now. If the people at X fusion say its comparable, I am going to give them the benefit of the doubt. A Lyrik is pretty flexy in comparison to a Vengeance, so even if this new fork is similar in stiffness to a Lyrik, it would be plenty stiff for most people.

  34. #34
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    I don't think stanchion spinning is much of an issue. First, you have the thru axle to prevent that, and it is much stiffer than the torsion traveling down a long length of tube. Second, this stanchion spinning is accompanied by one fork leg moving forwards and one backwards. (The twist that happens when you turn the handlebars but the wheel doesn't turn.) So there is another mechanism to prevent this motion anyway. Third, for stanchion keying to prevent this motion, it will basically have to have zero play and no excessive drag. With all that said, my guess that they will be keyed anyway just so the fork doesn't go loopy when you take off the wheel. But I doubt it has any other structural purpose.

    As for independent leg compression, the only thing prevent that on this fork is the clamping mechanism of the thru axle, bolted or press fit or glued to the end of a thin-wall stanchion. It will be easy to test just by grabbing the rim and fork leg together in one hand and squeezing.

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    Lets be honest here, Its not like its a measurable amount of twisting that happens. The honest reality of the situation is that its a combination of a small amount of stanchion spinning and a small amount of individual leg compression that gives USD forks there inherent twisting issue. Having a through axle is obviously helping the situation, but it doesn't solve the stanchion twisting issue completely. When enough force is applied, its still going to give way and give that little bit of flex that USD fork are known for. Axles are also only as stiff as the mounting system used allows. In the motocross industry, they use bigger axles among other things to solve the flexing issue. Manitou uses to shape of the axle to make the stiffest(so far) USD fork available.


    The article speculates that only the top part of the stanchion is keyed, which would solve the seal issue. It also talks about how the stanchion being keyed(which would be the first of its kind) would solve most of the flexing issues. As of now its all just speculation though. Lets hope they produce it so we can learn more about what they did.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    Manitou uses to shape of the axle to make the stiffest(so far) USD fork available.
    Not only that, their axle is pretty thick (and relatively heavy). More thickness to resist twisting.
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    upside down forks are great till the seals start to leak and all the fluid runs out! when they need to be rebuilt there is not much choice!
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    Quote Originally Posted by t0pcat View Post
    upside down forks are great till the seals start to leak and all the fluid runs out! when they need to be rebuilt there is not much choice!
    True. But most dampers are cartridge based now, so you don't have to worry about loosing damping oil. And if a fork is leaking, it should be rebuilt regardless of orientation.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Richard View Post
    Isn't Paul Turner of Maverick Bikes now in league with X-Fusion? I love my DUC32 forks for trail duty.
    And Maverick's all had proprietary hubs as well...

    "Its long been said that to make a bicycle USD fork stiff enough(twisting wise), for larger riders and extremely aggressive riders, a larger diameter axle would be required... At this point, nobody wants to make a 25mm axled fork that comes with a hub. They dont feel the market is big enough to have the inconvenience." -Mullen119
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  40. #40
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    As long as they stay with a hub that a hope pro can convert to, it's all good

    I would like to know if this fork fits a 4" fat tire....they were being tight lipped & won't tell me on e-mail....wish someone had a measuring tape lol. I know it's only a prototype right now, but dammit tell me how wide it is!

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    Quote Originally Posted by mattsavage View Post
    And Maverick's all had proprietary hubs as well...

    "Its long been said that to make a bicycle USD fork stiff enough(twisting wise), for larger riders and extremely aggressive riders, a larger diameter axle would be required... At this point, nobody wants to make a 25mm axled fork that comes with a hub. They dont feel the market is big enough to have the inconvenience." -Mullen119
    Well, even with the 24mm axle on my DUC there is a good amount of twist, but as stated above the mounting system plays a key roll.

    I think it will take more than a large axle alone to deal with independent stanchion rotation and telescopic movement to mitigate twisting. Thatís what makes this new effort intriguing.

    If keyed stanchions combined with a 20mm thru axle get the job done it would be great, otherwise the day may come when a new front axle standard hits the scene if stiff, long travel USD forks are to become a reality.

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    Wow, maybe it's really going to happen!

  44. #44
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    Look good. I'd be interested to see some videos too.
    Quote Originally Posted by NicoleB28 View Post
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    Was just coming here to post that Ibis picture.
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    Please make it to production. It looks so sweet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    Please make it to production. It looks so sweet.
    Yeah!

    The icing on the cake is the top of the line damper. It uses the HLR.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp View Post
    Yeah!

    The icing on the cake is the top of the line damper. It uses the HLR.
    Even with the RL damper I'd have one, pre-set compression is something X-Fusion have nailed that others seem to struggle with tremendously (Hello Fox CTD).

    Anyway, that picture's made me go all weak at the knees...
    Last edited by Fix the Spade; 12-16-2012 at 10:33 AM.

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    HLR and it's black, want, now
    ...

  50. #50
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    Is it me, or do the legs look a little on the thin side?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    Is it me, or do the legs look a little on the thin side?
    I'd hazard a guess that the uppers are extruded or CNC and anodized rather than cast and powder coated. They do look skinnier than normal cast lowers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fix the Spade View Post
    I'd hazard a guess that the uppers are extruded or CNC and anodized rather than cast and powder coated. They do look skinnier than normal cast lowers.
    I'd opt for the legs being turned on a lathe since it is a prototype. I doubt that they would invest the money to make the required tooling to extrude or forge a prototype. Casting would not be a good fit for this application. It would be super sweet if they produced a one piece forged steer tube/crown/upper leg assembly...

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    Quote Originally Posted by myarmisonfire View Post
    I'd opt for the legs being turned on a lathe since it is a prototype. I doubt that they would invest the money to make the required tooling to extrude or forge a prototype. Casting would not be a good fit for this application. It would be super sweet if they produced a one piece forged steer tube/crown/upper leg assembly...
    They most probably are.

    If you look closely at the pictures in the original article, even the crown bridge looks machined.

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  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp View Post
    They most probably are.

    If you look closely at the pictures in the original article, even the crown bridge looks machined.

    Could be cast then machined. Alot of companies do that on components to fine tune the material.
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  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattsavage View Post
    Could be cast then machined. Alot of companies do that on components to fine tune the material.
    Yeah, but for casting you can do only one mold (relatively on the cheap) besides, it would not be as strong for a crown.

    I still don't think it's extruded/forged. That involves making expensive tooling unless what they're showing is an advanced prototype or sharing parts with something in production or close to be... or that was in production like the Specialized inverted fork? Wasn't that one made by X-Fusion?.
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    Quote Originally Posted by myarmisonfire View Post
    I..... It would be super sweet if they produced a one piece forged steer tube/crown/upper leg assembly...
    .... and carbon-fiber as an option, which could be lighter, stiffer, and more durable than aluminum.

    A one piece steer tube/crown/upper leg could be close to the same stiffness, if not stiffer, and much lighter as a double-crown/triple-clamp design.

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    This thing is badass, and looks like it would be able to fit all wheel sizes. If they can make it stiff and light it should sell like hotcakes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by derby View Post
    .... and carbon-fiber as an option, which could be lighter, stiffer, and more durable than aluminum.

    A one piece steer tube/crown/upper leg could be close to the same stiffness, if not stiffer, and much lighter as a double-crown/triple-clamp design.
    As much as I love carbon, I hope that they stick with aluminum. I think the price may be out of reach for a lot of people (including me) if they go the carbon fiber route.

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    They would do carbon till they prove that Al is going to work.

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    Bike Rumor posted about the pic. They wrote that X fusion is hoping for a 2015 release date. Thats to far away!

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    Perfect, it'll be time for a new fork about then.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp View Post
    They most probably are.

    If you look closely at the pictures in the original article, even the crown bridge looks machined.

    Yeah, the proto was machined on a mill. You can see the tool path in the finish. Final product won't be 3d milled like that. Cheaper for proto work. Too slow otherwise.

  63. #63
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    I'll wait for one. It'll be worth it to have something that's not just the same recycled designs with more gimmicks attached (FIT, CTD, Motion Control, U-turn, TST2). I'm sick of gimmicks on mediocre forks instead of solid, properly damped designs. They can have all the adjustable travel, remote lockout, dual-air cr@p back; just give me a fork that feels like an Ohlins (which is USD, of course... oh, and stiff as well, thank you very much). Save us from the endless parade of pedestrian clone junk. Do it, X-Fusion. Do it soon. Do it for Mankind.

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    At this point, I would consider buying a vengeance instead. Or if Manitou comes out with a 160-170mm fork with TPC+, I would be all over it. But they have been claiming one is in the works for 3 years now, So I am not holding my breath.


    For that matter, I might just buy an Avy cartridge for my Lyrik and be done with it.

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by tyrebyter View Post
    I'll wait for one. It'll be worth it to have something that's not just the same recycled designs with more gimmicks attached (FIT, CTD, Motion Control, U-turn, TST2). I'm sick of gimmicks on mediocre forks instead of solid, properly damped designs. They can have all the adjustable travel, remote lockout, dual-air cr@p back; just give me a fork that feels like an Ohlins (which is USD, of course... oh, and stiff as well, thank you very much). Save us from the endless parade of pedestrian clone junk. Do it, X-Fusion. Do it soon. Do it for Mankind.
    I love my Dual Air!

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    I have just found a very interesting picture on a German site. If it's true then X-Fusion have done something with the question of stiffness for their new USD fork.
    X-Fusion Nabe PlusHub 35 110mm/35, 32-Loch - Gewicht von Teilen auf der Waage - MTB-News.de
    Name:  medium_IMAG2189.jpg
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    Quote Originally Posted by semmiho View Post
    I have just found a very interesting picture on a German site. If it's true then X-Fusion have done something with the question of stiffness for their new USD fork.
    X-Fusion Nabe PlusHub 35 110mm/35, 32-Loch - Gewicht von Teilen auf der Waage - MTB-News.de
    Name:  medium_IMAG2189.jpg
Views: 485
Size:  60.8 KB
    That's the hub from the x-fusion delta 8 USD fork which was developed by bionicon as the 'special agent' and produced by x-fusion, 6 years ago. Notice the 4 bolt disc mount.

  68. #68
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    X-Fusion Revel HLR Fork - First Look - Pinkbike

    It's happening!

    My wallet's already got up and run away.

    Confirmed from a year ago, it's using keyed stanchions like the HiLo does, although it would seem to have three per stanchion as opposed to two.

    160mm travel, 20mm axle, HLR damper, 650b and 29er models only. Although in practice the 650 is just a 26er with a bit more offset.

    Guesses on price anyone? I'm thinking 900-1000 Euro region to compete with Bos/ 36s and Pikes.

    Also, DVO, X Fusion, German A and seemingly Ohlins too, the world's going upside down...

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    That thing is blingy as f#@^.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fix the Spade View Post
    X-Fusion Revel HLR Fork - First Look - Pinkbike

    It's happening!

    Also, DVO, X Fusion, German A and seemingly Ohlins too, the world's going upside down...
    Gotta say, i like the design of the crown from the proto much better than this (assumed) production model.

    Nice to see a few manufacturers thinking of different ways to help with torsional stiffness to get these USD forks to market.

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    Just the colour to go with my teeth...

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    Shit, I hope they make it in red, or I'll have to buy all new gold parts.

  73. #73
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    The production models will likely come with black and white options, like everything else X Fusion sells.

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    Inverted X-Fusion

    Sub

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by deematic View Post
    Sub
    sandwich

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    Will it creak more or less than the modern csu?

  77. #77
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    God I hope not.... but as mentioned above... Blingy!!

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    Start saving boys and girls, MRSP is $1776usd! - More info from interbike - X-Fusion's Radical Revel HLR - Interbike 2013 - Pinkbike
    I don't crash, I just have slightly uncontrolled dismounts!

  79. #79
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    Ho
    Lee
    She
    Eat

    That's about $500 more than I was expecting, plus a run of just two hundred units. They weren't messing around when they said it was 'exclusive,'

    Ah well, with any luck it'll sell out rapid-like and there'll be a more mass production version, I still want one, even if it'll have to be second hand!

  80. #80
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    Only 200 made with free lifetime service. Sounds like 200 guinea pigs are going to get a fork. Mark my words, In about a year they'll be having them made in Asia, at half the price. Right after the Guinea pigs work out the bugs for them.

  81. #81
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    Inverted X-Fusion

    At that price it better come with a pit bull to guard the damn thing so it doesn't get stolen!
    Chances are .. You're full of !$@&?

  82. #82
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    You'd have to wonder whether they would make any money on only 200 forks, even at that price. I would have thought the R&D costs alone would make it hard to sell a very limited number of forks. Unless, like mentioned before, eventually they will make a cheaper version in Taiwan.
    I don't crash, I just have slightly uncontrolled dismounts!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwiplague View Post
    You'd have to wonder whether they would make any money on only 200 forks, even at that price. I would have thought the R&D costs alone would make it hard to sell a very limited number of forks. Unless, like mentioned before, eventually they will make a cheaper version in Taiwan.
    I think you're spot on. 1776 X 200= $355,200. Sounds like a lot of money, but I would bet its not enough to cover the R&D and manufacturing costs. At best they are breaking even. But in all honesty, its probably not about the money. Making the first lightweight/ torsionally stiff inverted single crown would go a long way in pushing X fusion to the top of the suspension market.

  84. #84
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    I don't think they need to make money on this... All the low cost oem stuff they pump out pays for it and then some. As in most industries, some companies just make things over the top cause they can.
    "I wrote a hit play! What have you ever done?!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by mattsavage View Post
    I don't think they need to make money on this... lost the lowest oem stuff they pump out pays for it and then some. As in most industries, some companies just make things over the top cause they can.
    I agree with this. It's like the LFA is to lexus, they lose money on every one they make, but it drums up interest and sales in the lower price bracket. As X Fusion isn't at the level of the Fox or RS brand names in terms of recognition, this could make a difference in the long term. It is a cool fork, though excessive in almost every facet.

  86. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwiplague View Post
    Unless, like mentioned before, eventually they will make a cheaper version in Taiwan.
    Definitively I will wait for that one.

    I think it's a marketing stunt to pump up brand recognition as mentioned... and if it works, then they will trickle it down.

    It's a little disturbing that people pay these prices, though... it just gives ground to up the prices all along. If a 1700usd fork sells, a 1400 version will look like a bargain. But it is just the nature of the beast, so please dismiss my rant.
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    If it works, it will trickle down. If you think about it, the hole thing is genius. They get brand recognition. 200 people will be the envy of everyone. X-fusion will get lots of feedback from these 200 forks being serviced for free, and I'm sure they will provide upgrades when needed, at no cost. The fork is beautiful, it's a work of art. And, if you think about it $1700 for what is essentially a hand made works level fork is really a bargain, as long as it performs as advertised. And to summarize, if it works as promised, it will trickle down.

  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp View Post
    It's a little disturbing that people pay these prices, though... it just gives ground to up the prices all along. If a 1700usd fork sells, a 1400 version will look like a bargain. But it is just the nature of the beast, so please dismiss my rant.
    There is an irony to X Fusion doing it though. The technology in their £450 forks (and the quality) is better than what certain other brands are selling for double, their Vengeance forks are £200 less than Lyriks and £3-400 less than Fox, Marzocchi and Bos, but better made than all three.

    If it's the beginning of a price hike drive I wouldn't be surprised (but still disappointed), on the other hand if this thing is the prelude to an upside down fork priced to match Bos and co I'd be delighted (and buying one). More than the Vengeance, but with the extra cool stuff to justify it.

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  90. #90
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    Travel options are 120-140 for the 29er and 160 for 650B
    I have a 160mm pike on my 29er, lighter, with bigger stanchions and a forged crown (that welded crown freaks me out, such a critical part of the fork).

    This fork is answering a question that no one is asking. Even the fox 34 is lighter. It's the same reason people bought the Shiver SC and Dorado SC though, because they were unique. It seems like this fork has some decent engineering to keep it from being too much of a noodle, but the sacrifices made to get there don't interest me at all.

    I MIGHT consider paying $1700 for something that is a half a pound lighter than the lightest fork in the travel class, while at the same time being stiffer and better damped. At least if I had money to throw away I'd definitely entertain the thought under those circumstances. I'm not going to spend a bunch of money on something that's inferior out of the gate (but looks like a million dollars).
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    I have a 160mm pike on my 29er, lighter, with bigger stanchions and a forged crown (that welded crown freaks me out, such a critical part of the fork).

    This fork is answering a question that no one is asking. Even the fox 34 is lighter. It's the same reason people bought the Shiver SC and Dorado SC though, because they were unique. It seems like this fork has some decent engineering to keep it from being too much of a noodle, but the sacrifices made to get there don't interest me at all.

    I MIGHT consider paying $1700 for something that is a half a pound lighter than the lightest fork in the travel class, while at the same time being stiffer and better damped. At least if I had money to throw away I'd definitely entertain the thought under those circumstances. I'm not going to spend a bunch of money on something that's inferior out of the gate (but looks like a million dollars).
    I guess it all works out then, With only 200 being made, I doubt you would be able to get one even if you wanted it.

    You're also comparing the wrong type of forks to it. Its designed to compete with the Lyrik/ Fox 36 line.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    I guess it all works out then, With only 200 being made, I doubt you would be able to get one even if you wanted it.

    You're also comparing the wrong type of forks to it. Its designed to compete with the Lyrik/ Fox 36 line.
    Really? You realize there are Fox 34s available with 150mm of travel, even in 29er models, Pike up to 160mm of travel across all wheel sizes, manitou just announced their take on the genre too-also 160mm and about 4lbs if I recall, I'm thinking this fork is about 5 years too late, but that's kind of the progression that you'd expect, because a right-side up fork has always been a much more efficient platform, especially when comparing non-double-crown forks. I'm thinking the Fox 36 and lyric sales are taking a nose-dive as we speak, given how many pikes have flooded the market. Those things are being stocked on all sorts of bikes and selling aftermarket like nose-candy. I wouldn't be surprised if it's their biggest relative seller ever(discounting the extremely low end OEM stuff).
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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    It will all bepend on its performances. And don't forget, the important part of the fork, in this case, the lower legs, are going to be lighter then any other fork.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    It will all bepend on its performances. And don't forget, the important part of the fork, in this case, the lower legs, are going to be lighter then any other fork.
    You mean the fallacy of less unsprung weight? You realize cast lowers are extremely light, the old aluminum 35mm 170-180mm 66 chassi lowers were .75lbs, so compared to a newer asysmetric casting out of aluminum or magnesium, they are probably a little heavier than a modern casting for a similar travel fork.

    But of course on an inverted fork there's the stanchions, the lower part of the damping mechanism/damping rod connected to the piston, any oil in there, the dropouts, and the axle, which are not weightless. But it doesn't stop there, then you got the brake caliper and adapter, rotor, hub, spokes, nipples, rim, rim strip, tire, sealant or tube, and so on. When you add all that up, the maybe 50g you are saving by having an upside down fork is lost in the huge amount of unsprung weight on there. If you can tell a 2% reduction in unsprung weight, then that's pretty awesome. There is no significant disparity in unsprung weight, in fact, it likely ends up almost exactly the same.

    I'd like to believe that things will depend on the performance (which includes chassi performance), but weight and performance together are what drive the markets in mountain biking. No one bought the avalanche forks because no one wanted a 10lb fork. Craig said he had to make them that stout to resist twisting and everything else that the design was susceptible to because he didn't have the resources for cast lowers, but of course weight won out against performance, and then eventually we were able to have both. I am blowing it a little out of proportion by discussing the fact that it's half a pound heavier at it's claimed weight than the competition, but I don't think you're going to hear or see anything more along these lines for a while. You can make something just as good but lighter that costs less.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    Bike Rumor posted about the pic. They wrote that X fusion is hoping for a 2015 release date. Thats to far away!
    Yeah, X-Fusion says 2015 which means more like 2017 if it's anything like how long it's taking to get the Sweep to market, now with a supposed ETA of Dec. 2013. Lost count how many times it's been pushed back. Maybe to much time spent on this project?

  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Really? You realize there are Fox 34s available with 150mm of travel, even in 29er models, Pike up to 160mm of travel across all wheel sizes, manitou just announced their take on the genre too-also 160mm and about 4lbs if I recall, I'm thinking this fork is about 5 years too late, but that's kind of the progression that you'd expect, because a right-side up fork has always been a much more efficient platform, especially when comparing non-double-crown forks. I'm thinking the Fox 36 and lyric sales are taking a nose-dive as we speak, given how many pikes have flooded the market. Those things are being stocked on all sorts of bikes and selling aftermarket like nose-candy. I wouldn't be surprised if it's their biggest relative seller ever(discounting the extremely low end OEM stuff).
    Im not saying the Pike or fox 34 are bad forks. Im saying they have RT3 and CTD dampers which are clearly designed for trail/AM use. Lyrik, Fox 36, and the Revel have true high and low speed compression adjustments and are made for for the heavy AM and into the FR side of riding.

    Manitous Mattoc is somewhere in between. Top of the line Pro model is 4.2 lbs with the Expert coming in at 4.4 and the Comp at 4.9lbs.




    As for your avalanche making a 10lbs DH fork comment, a 10lbs fork is ridiculous when there are 6-7 lbs options elsewhere. Thats nowhere in the ballpark of comparing a 4.5 lb fork to 4.1lb forks.

  97. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    Im not saying the Pike or fox 34 are bad forks. Im saying they have RT3 and CTD dampers which are clearly designed for trail/AM use. Lyrik, Fox 36, and the Revel have true high and low speed compression adjustments and are made for for the heavy AM and into the FR side of riding.
    RCT3 or CTD is not the damper, just an explanation of some of the adjustments. Both have high-speed shims and can be adjusted, just more of a pain to do so. The RCT3 is up there with recent technology, in terms of a closed cart not susceptible to cavitation with true high and low-speed circuits. As I understand it, the CTD comes in FIT and open bath flavors? Even "high speed" adjustments are often not really that, as it doesn't rearrange the shims when you turn a dial. Usually it just preloads the shims more, which isn't really the same thing (hence, custom tunes).
    Manitous Mattoc is somewhere in between. Top of the line Pro model is 4.2 lbs with the Expert coming in at 4.4 and the Comp at 4.9lbs.

    As for your avalanche making a 10lbs DH fork comment, a 10lbs fork is ridiculous when there are 6-7 lbs options elsewhere. Thats nowhere in the ballpark of comparing a 4.5 lb fork to 4.1lb forks.
    No, this was years ago when avalanche was 10lbs, a Dorado Pro with int. stem was 8.04, shivers were 8.7, etc.
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  98. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    RCT3 or CTD is not the damper, just an explanation of some of the adjustments. Both have high-speed shims and can be adjusted, just more of a pain to do so. The RCT3 is up there with recent technology, in terms of a closed cart not susceptible to cavitation with true high and low-speed circuits. As I understand it, the CTD comes in FIT and open bath flavors? Even "high speed" adjustments are often not really that, as it doesn't rearrange the shims when you turn a dial. Usually it just preloads the shims more, which isn't really the same thing (hence, custom tunes).

    No, this was years ago when avalanche was 10lbs, a Dorado Pro with int. stem was 8.04, shivers were 8.7, etc.
    All suspension has some form of high and low speed compression if it has a compression damper.even the lowly TK damper from Rock Shox has a crude hsc blow off. Giving riders only a couple of options on LSC or HSC adjustments is no ideal for heavy am light fr uses. Hence the mission control, rc2, and hlr dampers that give you these options. Having to chose from preset climb, trail. Or descend modes is not ideal for aggressive riding when pointed down

    Using a spring to preload a shim stack usually results into the equivalent of adding one or two base shims when fully preloaded. So you are essentially changing the stack. Not to the point of custom tuning, but that's no what we are talking about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp View Post
    Definitively I will wait for that one.

    I think it's a marketing stunt to pump up brand recognition as mentioned... and if it works, then they will trickle it down.

    It's a little disturbing that people pay these prices, though... it just gives ground to up the prices all along. If a 1700usd fork sells, a 1400 version will look like a bargain. But it is just the nature of the beast, so please dismiss my rant.
    I demo'd an $11,000 bike (SC Bronson) at the fat tire festival in Fruita this year... Apparently there's at least a few folks willing to part with mind blowing $$ for cool bike stuff.

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