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  1. #1
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    How to guide: Reshim your ABS+ HSC shim stack

    Seems like there has been a lot of talk on here about Manitous ABS+ damper and how good it is. I have been playing around with the HSC shim stack over the last few months and figured i would make a "how to" guide so others can do the same. It only takes 15-20 minutes and once you get a shim stack set up for your weight, The ABS+ damper is even better!


    Use a 2.5mm allen wrench to take the top cap off. Take it off carefully!

    Be careful not to loose the little ball bearings and springs, They are very tiny and easy to loose track of.When you reassemble, it doesnt matter where they springs and bearings go as long as they are across from each other.

    Once the top cap is off, unscrew the damper from the leg and pull it out. Pull is out slowly and you wont loose very much oil. Keep a rag near by because you will loose a little no matter what.
    Damper after being pulled out.

    At the very top of the damper, there is a place for a 10mm wrench to hold the damper while you use a 13mm socket to unscrew the nut on the bottom of the piston.

    One shim that is used as a check valve and a spring are under the piston. This just allows oil to flow freely back into the leg after the fork is compressed and re-extended. When reassembling, The spring goes back with the wider end toward the piston and the skinnier end toward the nut.



    Close up of bottom of piston

    Close up of top of piston

    Shim stack installed


    My 2010 drake has 6 compression shims stock. 3 the same size, and 3 that get progressively smaller in a pyramid shape. Lighter rider can remove shims to allow the HSC to open with less force, while heavier riders will want to add shims. Endless possibilities for shim configurations, So if you try this, post your weight and shim stack.


    Reassemble same way you take it apart. Make sure the LSC is all the way open(counter clockwise) when you put the damper back in the leg. Oil height should be 87mm from the crown when fully assembled. If your careful taking it apart you shouldn't loose a significant amount of oil, but always check to make sure.


    <b>Key points from that this thread has turned up:</b>

    1. Thanks to Solitone, we have the Manitou ABS+ tuning guide which includes dyno charts and many different shim stack combinations. Its probably the single best find this thread has produced (thanks Solitone)

    This link should work:
    <a href="http://goo.gl/JaqWO">http://goo.gl/JaqWO</a>

    2. Spring rate needs to be set up correctly. I get PM's and hear of people trying to get their fork to feel right when it is way under/over sprung. Spring rate trumps damping and should always be set up correctly prior to trying different shim stack configurations.

    3. A good place to order shims is MX tech.
    MX-Tech Suspensions
    Last edited by mullen119; 01-17-2014 at 01:06 PM.

  2. #2
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    Is that a dished piston? With the outer ring protruding slightly more than the inner seat which the centre of the shims are compressed against?
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz and NZ Manitou Agent.
    www.dougal.co.nz Suspension setup & tuning.
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal
    Is that a dished piston? With the outer ring protruding slightly more than the inner seat which the centre of the shims are compressed against?
    yes, there is a small lip that the shims sit on top of. From memory I would say is about half a mm tall

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119
    yes, there is a small lip that the shims sit on top of. From memory I would say is about half a mm tall
    Cool, there's another tuning dimension manitou have given you. By relocating small shims to under the largest one you can reduce the preload on the shim stack and have it opening sooner.

    Basically now you've got platform starting point on top of all the usual shim stack options. By closing the freebleed it's a total platform.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz and NZ Manitou Agent.
    www.dougal.co.nz Suspension setup & tuning.
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  5. #5
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    that's a great point dougal. I never thought about it, but that would open up even more options.

  6. #6
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    So, for a total shim newb here, do you remove one of the largest diameter shim to decrease HSC? Conversely, do you add a shim equal to the largest diameter shims to increase HSC?

    What do you torque the nut to?

    Is there some place I can read about the underlying mechanics of how this shim system works?

  7. #7
    PMK
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    Yes the stack preload can be a good tuning option for those that understand it.

    Currently Race Tech has this option with their G2 series Gold Valves.

    Race Tech takes it a step further by allowing the preload shim the ability to run different diameters that alter the port area.

    Those wanting to understand more should do some searching about Penske dampers. There should still be tech articles about the various piston or valve body designs.

    Also, remember, that as you unload the stack, you almost always must firm the stack. The downside of running a non preloaded stack is in most instances you will increase HS damping and often create deflection issues.

    PK
    Last edited by PMK; 02-21-2011 at 07:53 AM.

  8. #8
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    Subscribed. (great thread!)

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  9. #9
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    I have the Drake '10.

    I am not a suspension engineer.

    How does rider weight affect the purpose of the shim stack?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by JLantz
    I have the Drake '10.

    I am not a suspension engineer.

    How does rider weight affect the purpose of the shim stack?
    The purpose of the HSC shim stack is to open as a "blow off" when oil pressure builds up because it cant get through LSC circuit fast enough. Heavy riders are going to create more pressure then lighter riders, causing the shim stack to open on smaller hits that a heavier rider may not want it to open on. On the other side, lighter riders will have to hit a much bigger hit to get the same shim stack to open. Think of it as a 250lbs person is going to be much harder on a fork then a 150lbs person, So them same shim stack on the same fork will feel a lot different to those two people.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by half_man_half_scab
    So, for a total shim newb here, do you remove one of the largest diameter shim to decrease HSC? Conversely, do you add a shim equal to the largest diameter shims to increase HSC?

    What do you torque the nut to?

    Is there some place I can read about the underlying mechanics of how this shim system works?

    You can add and remove any size shim, you will get the biggest effect by adding or removing the biggest shims, but for fine tuning, you can change any of them. There is also different shim thicknesses that you can use for more tuning options.

    I couldnt find a torque number for the nut. I just snug it down fairly lightly and have not had any problems, But if anyone find a torque number it would be good to know.

    use google to find information on shim stacks, Lots of good information out there

  12. #12
    PMK
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    Took a moment and found a link to the Penske site info.

    http://www.penskeshocks.com/files/Adjustable_Manual.pdf

    Later pages discuss the various piston design formats.

    Pretty technical but should be more than enough information to make your brain hurt.

    Granted it is not bicycle specific in title but is applicable.

    PK

  13. #13
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    Good link PMK

  14. #14
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    I've got an introduction to shim stacks on the www.dougal.co.nz website below, because it's frames (yeah it needs updated), but follow this path
    www.dougal.co.nz
    -> click to enter
    -> Suspension
    -> Advanced tuning tab will turn up below. Read the basic tuning one first

    The Penske one is a gold mine once you've got a handle on it.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz and NZ Manitou Agent.
    www.dougal.co.nz Suspension setup & tuning.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal
    I've got an introduction to shim stacks on the www.dougal.co.nz website below, because it's frames (yeah it needs updated), but follow this path
    www.dougal.co.nz
    -> click to enter
    -> Suspension
    -> Advanced tuning tab will turn up below. Read the basic tuning one first

    The Penske one is a gold mine once you've got a handle on it.
    Thats a great link dougal. It explains shim stacks in detail and it written in a way that I would think a noob would understand pretty easily.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119
    Thats a great link dougal. It explains shim stacks in detail and it written in a way that I would think a noob would understand pretty easily.
    Thanks, I always appreciate good feedback.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz and NZ Manitou Agent.
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  17. #17
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    here is a good place to buy shims. I still need to measure the shims ID and max OD. I will do so and post them when I get a chance.
    Last edited by mullen119; 03-06-2011 at 11:38 AM.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal
    Thanks, I always appreciate good feedback.
    Dougal, did the quake affect your area?

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by derby
    Dougal, did the quake affect your area?
    Hi Ray

    I live about 450km away so that quake and the aftershocks were just able to be felt here. But I do have a lot of friends and also family in Christchurch. So far every report I've heard from people I know is good, but it is still early days and there are a lot of people still to get news from.
    It will be some time before the extent of the casaulties are known.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz and NZ Manitou Agent.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal
    Hi Ray

    I live about 450km away so that quake and the aftershocks were just able to be felt here. But I do have a lot of friends and also family in Christchurch. So far every report I've heard from people I know is good, but it is still early days and there are a lot of people still to get news from.
    It will be some time before the extent of the casaulties are known.

    Good to hear you are ok dougal, Hopefully all your friends and family are as well.

  21. #21
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    Subscribed!!!
    As I have a 2009 Minute modified with the ABS+ damper.
    It's a great setup BTW.
    Look, whatever happens, don't fight the mountain.

  22. #22
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    Hello everyone. I own a Manitou Minute Expert 100 mm.
    Weight around 158 pounds, maybe 165 equipped.

    Have been riding the fork for about 10-15 hours already and still feel it kinda stiff on its travel.

    One click from fully open is what i usually use when going downhill, on very rocky terrain. Im running the fork at around 10 psi.
    Im getting maybe 70 or 75 mms of travel from it, even from big, soccer sized football rocks.
    So i was thinking about getting rid of one of the medium shims.

  23. #23
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    Take the 10 psi out and go for a ride. Taking a shim out would allow you to run the 2-3, maybe even 4 clicks of low speed compression to dial out brake dive and some pedal bob and still maintain small bump sensitivity, But not change the amount of travel you use. Since your fork is a coil fork with air preload, you may need to change to a softer coil spring. That being said though, hitting a soccer sized rock should not bottom your fork, It should only use close full travel on a 2-3 ft drop or a pretty hard hit. What does the fork give you for sag?

  24. #24
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    Thought this would help out: Find your fork and your forks travel. The first number after is is stock oil height, Second set of numbers is acceptable range of oil height.

    Circus Comp/Match 80mm 83 80-85
    Circus Comp/Match 100mm 83 80-85
    Match 130mm 83 80-85
    Circus Expert/Drake 80mm 87 85-90
    Circus Expert/Drake 100mm 87 85-90
    Circus Expert/Drake 130mm 87 85-90
    R7 80mm 83 80-85
    R7 100mm 83 80-85
    Minute 100mm 87 85-90
    Minute 120mm 87 85-90
    Minute 140mm 87 85-90
    Drake 29er 80mm 87 85-90
    Drake 29er 100mm 87 85-90
    Drake 29er 120mm 87 85-90
    Minute 29er 80mm 87 85-90
    Minute 29er 100mm 87 85-90
    Minute 29er 120mm 87 85-90
    R7 MRD 80mm 103 100-105
    R7 MRD 100mm 108 105-110
    Minute MRD 100mm 108 105-110
    Minute MRD 130mm 113 110-115

  25. #25
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    Bob

    Just switched out my old 100mm minute absolute air (with ABS+) for a 120mm Tower Pro. I had the 100 dialed so that about 2-4 clicks, I had no bob on the climbs, but had the action that I wanted for travel. On my 120, the only way to control the bob on climbs is full lock out. Would you say adding about 1-2 big shims would put my "happy" range somewhere between full lock out and 0? I weigh 165 and have no idea which springs were in each of those forks, they had what ever was "stock".
    Thanks!

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by slip20
    Just switched out my old 100mm minute absolute air (with ABS+) for a 120mm Tower Pro. I had the 100 dialed so that about 2-4 clicks, I had no bob on the climbs, but had the action that I wanted for travel. On my 120, the only way to control the bob on climbs is full lock out. Would you say adding about 1-2 big shims would put my "happy" range somewhere between full lock out and 0? I weigh 165 and have no idea which springs were in each of those forks, they had what ever was "stock".
    Thanks!

    You would actually want to remove shims. The Dial on the outside of your fork is low speed compression. The Shims are the high speed compression blow off. If you remove shims, the fork will open the shim stack with less force. So if you remove one or two shims, you will be able to have your low speed one or two clicks from closed(or completely closed if needed) and have the fork still move on impacts.

    Your situation is a good situation for experimentation as well. It sounds to me like a dual stage shim stack would work perfect for you.

    That would look something like this:


    if you put a single shim or a one big and one small shim on the bottom, a few of the smallest shims on top of those to create a gap,( you would have to buy a few shims) followed by a big shim(stack) again, You would have something that would help you out tremendously. This would allow you to run the ABS almost closed to stop pedal bob and brake dive. But when you hit a small bump, open the 1st stage enough to give you some decent small bump sesitivity, but keep you from blowing through travel, and the second stage would allow for good feel on bigger hits.

    I would experiment with different shim configurations. You will be able to find something you like after a few tries. But you defenitly are going to want to remove shims, not add( unless you try the two stage stack)

  27. #27
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    Shims are 8mm ID with a max OD of 19mm

  28. #28
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    I tried the dual and triple stage shim stacks a few years ago and gave up on them.

    Basically the more stages you put in, the more your shim stack damper imitates an orifice damper. Not enough low speed damping and too much at higher shaft speed. This means the suspension both wallows and spikes. No good at all for the places I like to ride which are littered with sharp rocks and roots.

    If you spend a lot of time at either end of the damping spectrum it could work okay (i.e. small bumps followed by a cliff drop), but I've found between a single stage conical stack and a more digressive flat stack to work best. The digressive stacks with more low speed damping seem to be able to extract more bump energy without transferring it to the rider, holding the bike up better between hits and sucking up the fast hits much better.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz and NZ Manitou Agent.
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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal
    I tried the dual and triple stage shim stacks a few years ago and gave up on them.

    Basically the more stages you put in, the more your shim stack damper imitates an orifice damper. Not enough low speed damping and too much at higher shaft speed. This means the suspension both wallows and spikes. No good at all for the places I like to ride which are littered with sharp rocks and roots.

    If you spend a lot of time at either end of the damping spectrum it could work okay (i.e. small bumps followed by a cliff drop), but I've found between a single stage conical stack and a more digressive flat stack to work best. The digressive stacks with more low speed damping seem to be able to extract more bump energy without transferring it to the rider, holding the bike up better between hits and sucking up the fast hits much better.
    Thats good to know dougal, I have been experimenting with dual stage myself. I found decent results that seem promising, But nothing spectacular yet. But the places I ride are like you said, Smaller bumps and some medium sized drops, not much in between. Maybe If I dont find something that I really like soon, I will go back to experimenting with different single stage stacks. I have yet to try taking some of the preload off the shim stack yet, Maybe I will try that.

  30. #30
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    Hey dougal, Did you get affected by the tsunami?

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119
    Hey dougal, Did you get affected by the tsunami?
    Not here, I'm in the south island and almost as far inland as you can be. It sounds like the north island got big enough waves to measure (40cm or so) but not enough to cause any problems.

    From a scientific point of view, this is the best recorded Tsunami of modern times and we will learn a lot from it's movements. My deepest sympathies to those affected in Japan.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz and NZ Manitou Agent.
    www.dougal.co.nz Suspension setup & tuning.
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  32. #32
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    I saw that Hawaii and the west coast of the United States had some minor damage from the Tsunami and heard some stuff about New Zealand as well. Good to hear nothing in your area.

  33. #33
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    Whoa - so Mullen119 is the Manitou Man! Great info.
    I'm gonna miss me when I'm gone.
    IMBA member #234701

  34. #34
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    The real Manitou man is dougal, He pretty much knows everything there is to know about Manitou.

  35. #35
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    I read Manitous also have Rebound shim stacks?

    How would that work?

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by assas1n
    I read Manitous also have Rebound shim stacks?

    How would that work?
    Yes oil damped manitous have had shimmed rebound since 1996. The rebound knob is your low-speed rebound dial, it controls oil through the centre of the shaft. The shims are for high speed rebound and open up to allow the fork to extend faster and stick to the ground better (giving more traction and better ride) while keeping low speed movements well controlled and the bike stable.

    If your rebound is too slow even with the knob full open then softening up the rebound shim stack will help a lot. On my bikes I like a fast rebound and shoot for the rebound knob mostly closed with the shims doing the majority of the work.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz and NZ Manitou Agent.
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  37. #37
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    Oh i see, so i need no manipulating on that matter hehe.
    I run more less at the middle of the rebound knobb.

    Whats weird is, if i run the fork with a really slow rebound, actually the compression gets harder and stiction rises alot !

    I own a Minute Expert 2011 - 100mm

  38. #38
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    Ok here's a couple question's for you Manitou guru's.

    I've been looking at the Minute Expert, and on their site it says:
    Travel: 80, 100 (Internally Adj), 130

    So what does this mean exactly? If I had a 130mm fork could it be tuned down to 100? And if so how involved of a job is it?

    Also I imagine I'll need some kind of air pump. Recommendation?

    Sorry for the newb questions!
    Last edited by dundundata; 04-09-2011 at 07:31 PM.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by dundundata
    Ok here's a couple question's for you Manitou guru's.

    I've been looking at the Minute Expert, and on their site it says:
    Travel: 80, 100 (Internally Adj), 130

    So what does this mean exactly? If I had a 130mm fork could it be tuned down to 100? And if so how involved of a job is it?

    Also I imagine I'll need some kind of air pump. Recommendation?

    Sorry for the newb questions!
    No, the 130 is fixed travel. The 100 is adjustable down to 80 internally. Almost all the Manitou "Expert" and "comp" models do that.
    "I wrote a hit play! What have you ever done?!"

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  40. #40
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    You can shorten any fork if you are into real modifications. I've never let the factory recommendations or intentions bother me too much.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz and NZ Manitou Agent.
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  41. #41
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    The reason i asked was because the best deal I could find for the 100mm has those darn v-brake bosses and the 130mm for the same price has none.

  42. #42
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    Can a 2007 Minute Platinum SPV 140 be converted to ABS+? I found the thread regarding converting to TPC but haven't found anything about ABS.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by aaronka970
    Can a 2007 Minute Platinum SPV 140 be converted to ABS+? I found the thread regarding converting to TPC but haven't found anything about ABS.
    I don't know about ABS but TPC is great and you can shim it to give the ride you want.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by aaronka970
    Can a 2007 Minute Platinum SPV 140 be converted to ABS+? I found the thread regarding converting to TPC but haven't found anything about ABS.
    Possibly, by swapping dampers, but Manitou says the ABS+ damper won't fit in an SPV fork, others on here say they have successfully fitted it.

    Buy one, try it out, let us know. I think the non MRD versions for Minutes are about 45 bucks at CRC. You'd have to get a TPC rebound damper while you're at it, another 40 bucks or so.
    "I wrote a hit play! What have you ever done?!"

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  45. #45
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    Great, thanks!

    End of hijack. Could have started another thread, just noticed a lot of Manitou guys active on this one and I like the idea of fine tuning through shim stacks. Not to mention it sounds like ABS+ is the way to go.

  46. #46
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    Would it be ok if i take out one of the big shims? (manitou minute expert)
    Maybe get 2 of the smaller ones off? Dont know.

    I feel the fork is damping the compression too much and not getting enough travel.


    Thanks

  47. #47
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    The biggest shim is needed to cover the ports. If you feel you have too much compression damping, take out the smaller shims first.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz and NZ Manitou Agent.
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  48. #48
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    All of them?

    What i believe is that the fork is too progressive, and i would want it to feel more linear.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by assas1n
    All of them?

    What i believe is that the fork is too progressive, and i would want it to feel more linear.
    Progression is the spring, not the damper. Feel free to drain the oil from the damper and go for a ride to see how much travel you can get with no damping. Just beware it'll be quite bouncey.
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  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by assas1n
    Would it be ok if i take out one of the big shims? (manitou minute expert)
    Maybe get 2 of the smaller ones off? Dont know.

    I feel the fork is damping the compression too much and not getting enough travel.


    Thanks

    There should be 3 of the largest shims stack on top of each other on your fork. You need to leave at least one to cover the oil ports. But removing one(or two) should will be fine. Experiment with removing different shims and see how it effects the ride, and the LSC (ABS+ dial). It will allow you to better understand what you are changing.

  51. #51
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    Yep, ill have to get my hands dirty and learn!

    Will be getting oil for the damper and semi oil bath for the lowers next week, so i can do experimentation on the shims!

    Thanks guy!

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119
    My 2010 drake has 6 compression shims stock. 3 the same size, and 3 that get progressively smaller in a pyramid shape. Lighter rider can remove shims to allow the HSC to open with less force, while heavier riders will want to add shims. Endless possibilities for shim configurations, So if you try this, post your weight and shim stack.
    Very interesting thread--I suscribed to it.

    Just wondering what configuration you tried was the best for your weight? The standard configuration from Manitou, or a custom one where you removed or added shims?

    I remember from another post of yours that you weigh like me, so it'd be a good starting point for me.

  53. #53
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    Dougal

    I have 2005 manitou Nixon super, air sprung with TPC+. I'm over 300lbs and want to tune this fork for cross country and all mountain. I do not get off the ground much but want better control from my Nixon. Right now I'm running 7.5 weight oil and have the max level in the fork. What suggestions do have to control diving and to keep the fork riding higher in it travel. I am willing to try re-shimming the fork but need some expert advice before I dig in.

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by big Kat
    Dougal

    I have 2005 manitou Nixon super, air sprung with TPC+. I'm over 300lbs and want to tune this fork for cross country and all mountain. I do not get off the ground much but want better control from my Nixon. Right now I'm running 7.5 weight oil and have the max level in the fork. What suggestions do have to control diving and to keep the fork riding higher in it travel. I am willing to try re-shimming the fork but need some expert advice before I dig in.
    I would start by doubling the shims that are in the compression damper. Simply double them up and go from there. Presuming your air-spring pressure is okay, there is also a short coil spring under the air spring which should be upgraded to a stiffer one.

    The rebound will probably be okay as most find the stock range too slow, see how that end goes.
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  55. #55
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    For outdoor riding, I remove one of the big shims and its close to what I am looking for. I have been experimenting with a two stage stack, But havent found the perfect set up yet. I need to order more shims to give myself more options.

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119
    For outdoor riding,
    Is there any other type of riding?
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  57. #57
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    Dougal,

    Thanks. I have 2 stiff ride kits already. Do you have any info on the shim size? Should I move to a thicker shim or just double up?

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by big Kat
    Dougal,

    Thanks. I have 2 stiff ride kits already. Do you have any info on the shim size? Should I move to a thicker shim or just double up?
    It is better to double up the shims. Thicker shims cannot flex as far without bending and eventually breaking.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz and NZ Manitou Agent.
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  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal
    Is there any other type of riding?
    Where I live, There is Rays MTB which is indoor mountain bike park for the winter. I was running a different set up there because there isnt much for small bumps. I was running my fork almost locked out with a weak shim stack to allow for it to blow off on the medium sized hits without a really harsh spike. Not much for big hits there, so the weak shim stack didnt give any problems with harsh bottom outs. I forgot about it and took it for my first outdoor ride of the year last week and had some problems

  60. #60
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    Manutou's ABS+ tuning guide

    I recently wrote to Manitou to ask the difference between the trail tuned ABS+ of Minute forks and the standard XC ABS+ of R7 forks.

    They sent me a useful document that explains the different configurations (XC, trail, linear) and how to tune the ABS+ damping system. It has lots of interesting graphs and drawings.

    This document isn't in their website, but they told me I can publish it. It is very informative and I think it could be helpful. You can find it here: ABS+ Tuning REV 3-10-2011.pdf
    Last edited by solitone; 05-19-2011 at 05:05 AM.

  61. #61
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    Great find, thanks.
    Owner of www.shockcraft.co.nz and NZ Manitou Agent.
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  62. #62
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    Awesome link!

  63. #63
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    That is a fantastic link and really useful information for anybody that has a Manitou fork.

  64. #64
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    Suspension Damping

    For those like me who don't have a deep knowledge of suspension damping, here's an article that gives a good brief introduction.

    It refers to motorbike suspensions, hence velocity figures used in the examples are higher than those experienced by MTB suspensions. Nevertheless the basic principles are the same.

    It explains the difference between low and high speed damping, as well as the meaning of damping curves, so it helps understand the damping curves in Manitou's document I posted before.

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by solitone
    Score!!!
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    Have Ashtray, Will Travel....

  66. #66
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    Thanks for posting that up, solitone, great doc!

    P

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by solitone
    For those like me who don't have a deep knowledge of suspension damping, here's an article that gives a good brief introduction.

    It refers to motorbike suspensions, hence velocity figures used in the examples are higher than those experienced by MTB suspensions. Nevertheless the basic principles are the same.

    It explains the difference between low and high speed damping, as well as the meaning of damping curves, so it helps understand the damping curves in Manitou's document I posted before.
    link is not to article, but to the main page, which doesn't have the article
    could you double check

  68. #68
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    I tuned mine a long time ago.. from what I remember, even at 200lbs I ended up pulling out all but one of the big shims. Mine had a ton of shims in it and it rode like a brick! I think they wanted a simulated platform.

    Dont forget about very nice shimmed rebound damper! IMO, rebound tuning is really what turns a good fork, into a fantastic fork. Theres tons of control in getting your HSR really dialed.. nice and fast HSR stops pack up, and slow LSR gives control.

    Sadly, I had to give up on ABS+ I had a fork that technically shouldnt exist, an IT abs+ minute. The IT needs the spv pressure to have a normal spring rate.

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Pivot
    I tuned mine a long time ago.. from what I remember, even at 200lbs I ended up pulling out all but one of the big shims. Mine had a ton of shims in it and it rode like a brick! I think they wanted a simulated platform.

    Dont forget about very nice shimmed rebound damper! IMO, rebound tuning is really what turns a good fork, into a fantastic fork. Theres tons of control in getting your HSR really dialed.. nice and fast HSR stops pack up, and slow LSR gives control.

    Sadly, I had to give up on ABS+ I had a fork that technically shouldnt exist, an IT abs+ minute. The IT needs the spv pressure to have a normal spring rate.

    I don't think that is true. Manitou made a Minute 140 IT with ABS. Not very common but they made it.

  70. #70
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    The fork sagged excessively. Running enough pressure to keep it in the top of the travel like it should would make using all the travel impossible. It wasnt the platform either, as I had gutted the ball assembly. It was effectively a 130mm fork with abs+. With IT, I had it at about 145mm.

    Manitous cs told me making an abs IT minute would be impossible.. its obviously not, but something funny happens with the IT spring. If theres a factory IT ABS fork, they might have retuned the negative chamber or something.

  71. #71
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    Thanks for the link! Much appreciated

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by chauzie
    link is not to article, but to the main page, which doesn't have the article
    could you double check
    That's strange. I've just hit the link and it opens the article--not the main page as you say. Its titile is Technicalities: Suspension Damping, and it is in the section Home»Motorcycle Tech Tips.

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by solitone
    I recently wrote to Manitou to ask the difference between the trail tuned ABS+ of Minute forks and the standard XC ABS+ of R7 forks.

    They sent me a useful document that explains the different configurations (XC, trail, linear) and how to tune the ABS+ damping system. It has lots of interesting graphs and drawings.

    This document isn't in their website, but they told me I can publish it. It is very informative and I think it could be helpful. You can find it here: ABS+ Tuning REV 3-10-2011.pdf

    Whats odd about the link is that my stock shim stack is not listed IMO, One of the best links posted on this site.

  74. #74
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    I'm actually curious which fork gets which stack-configuration...

    Is manitou planning on offering a shimpack/tuning kit?

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Pivot
    The fork sagged excessively. Running enough pressure to keep it in the top of the travel like it should would make using all the travel impossible. It wasnt the platform either, as I had gutted the ball assembly. It was effectively a 130mm fork with abs+. With IT, I had it at about 145mm.

    Manitous cs told me making an abs IT minute would be impossible.. its obviously not, but something funny happens with the IT spring. If theres a factory IT ABS fork, they might have retuned the negative chamber or something.

    That is interesting. I have a 160 Nixon IT that originally came with an intrinsic damper. Worked great but wanted to try TPC+ (as I had it before in my X-vert super and loved it!). While it works well, I can't help but think that the intrinsic, with it strong bottom out control and progressive nature worked better with the IT system.

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by two-one
    I'm actually curious which fork gets which stack-configuration...
    I'm not sure, but I think it should be like this:

    - Production XC Stack: Marvel, R7, Tower, Match;
    - Production Trial Stack: Minute;
    - Production Jump Stack: Circus.

    I would have said that Tower had the same stack as Minute (being the same fork as Minute but for 29er), however Manitou's webpage doesn't specify trail tuning.

    Quote Originally Posted by two-one
    Is manitou planning on offering a shimpack/tuning kit?
    They told me that the document comes with Manitou's new tuning kit they are selling. So yes, I think there is already a tuning kit on offer.

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119
    Whats odd about the link is that my stock shim stack is not listed
    Yes, I noticed that. Perhaps something has changed in this year's shim stack configurations?

  78. #78
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    Well I will be looking into this soon. I just put in a ABS+ damper in my 2008 Minute Comp 140. Dont know if I will though since mine fork has the stage 2 spring rate and it seems (only after one ride) that I have really finite control on the amount of bump control for the fork. really plush spring rate at the lowest ABS+ fully open...perfect spring rate three clicks from the lowest ABS+ two clicks from open....fully locked spring rate at the highest ABS+ closed

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by solitone View Post
    I'm not sure, but I think it should be like this:

    - Production XC Stack: Marvel, R7, Tower, Match;
    - Production Trial Stack: Minute;
    - Production Jump Stack: Circus.

    I would have said that Tower had the same stack as Minute (being the same fork as Minute but for 29er), however Manitou's webpage doesn't specify trail tuning.
    Finally pulled the HSC stack from my 2011 Minute Expert to see what shim stack i have. Turns out it came stock with the XC stack, not the Trail stack.
    I had a total of 2 shims on top of the piston (diff than the OP) & the normal 1 below like the OP.
    Just thought i'd share. i'll be calling Manitou to see what i can do about ordering some more shims to play with.

    Oh and it looks like Manitou switched the piston (HSC) from an anodized alum to red plastic....not a big deal, but my 2011 is definetly diff than the OP.

    sent from my hand-held computer

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by HomegrownMN View Post
    Finally pulled the HSC stack from my 2011 Minute Expert to see what shim stack i have. Turns out it came stock with the XC stack, not the Trail stack.
    I had a total of 2 shims on top of the piston (diff than the OP) & the normal 1 below like the OP.
    Just thought i'd share. i'll be calling Manitou to see what i can do about ordering some more shims to play with.

    Oh and it looks like Manitou switched the piston (HSC) from an anodized alum to red plastic....not a big deal, but my 2011 is definetly diff than the OP.

    sent from my hand-held computer
    Photo's...?
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  81. #81
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    Negative. Looks the same as the OP's pics, just the differences i explained. Maybe next time i open her up, i'll take pics

    sent from my hand-held computer

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by HomegrownMN View Post
    Finally pulled the HSC stack from my 2011 Minute Expert to see what shim stack i have. Turns out it came stock with the XC stack, not the Trail stack.
    I had a total of 2 shims on top of the piston (diff than the OP) & the normal 1 below like the OP.
    Just thought i'd share. i'll be calling Manitou to see what i can do about ordering some more shims to play with.

    Oh and it looks like Manitou switched the piston (HSC) from an anodized alum to red plastic....not a big deal, but My 2011 is definetly diff than the OP.
    sent from my hand-held computer
    I will be super disappointed if they are using a plastic piston.......


    Side note: I talked to a Manitou tech a few days ago and they said there may be a long travel fork (160-180mm coming out, but not until 2013. Hopefully this is true.

  83. #83
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    Well, be disappointed. I was told today by Manitou tech, that the Pro comes with the alum piston. Expert gets plastic. Waiting to hear back from them about my shim stack. Their website definetly says 'Trail Tuned' and i most definetly have the XC pack..... Hopefully they will be sending me a Trail stack, but i was told the tuning 'kits' aren't available yet...?!?

    sent from my hand-held computer

  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by HomegrownMN View Post
    Well, be disappointed. I was told today by Manitou tech, that the Pro comes with the alum piston. Expert gets plastic. Waiting to hear back from them about my shim stack. Their website definetly says 'Trail Tuned' and i most definetly have the XC pack..... Hopefully they will be sending me a Trail stack, but i was told the tuning 'kits' aren't available yet...?!?

    sent from my hand-held computer
    I wonder it the Match comes with a piston made out of a wicker basket......

    Im very disappointed with that news. Especially because My 2010 drake came with a aluminum piston and the Minute Expert is suppose to be the exact same fork.

  85. #85
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    Manitou have almost always used plastic damper pistons. The only exceptions I have owned are 99 Xvert Ti (aluminium rebound piston) , 2000 Xvert carbon (aluminium rebound piston), 03 Minute SPV (aluminium piston), 06 Nixon (TPC+ removable cartridge) and Nixons.

    All the rest of the EFC's, FS Ti's, Xverts, Blacks, Mars etc that I've owned are plastic pistons, none of them have suffered because of that.
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  86. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dougal View Post
    Manitou have almost always used plastic damper pistons. The only exceptions I have owned are 99 Xvert Ti (aluminium rebound piston) , 2000 Xvert carbon (aluminium rebound piston), 03 Minute SPV (aluminium piston), 06 Nixon (TPC+ removable cartridge) and Nixons.

    All the rest of the EFC's, FS Ti's, Xverts, Blacks, Mars etc that I've owned are plastic pistons, none of them have suffered because of that.
    I dont see why it would have any effect on performance, but its still disappointing IMO.

  87. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by HomegrownMN View Post
    Finally pulled the HSC stack from my 2011 Minute Expert to see what shim stack i have. Turns out it came stock with the XC stack, not the Trail stack.
    I had a total of 2 shims on top of the piston (diff than the OP) & the normal 1 below like the OP.
    Just thought i'd share. i'll be calling Manitou to see what i can do about ordering some more shims to play with.

    Oh and it looks like Manitou switched the piston (HSC) from an anodized alum to red plastic....not a big deal, but my 2011 is definetly diff than the OP.

    sent from my hand-held computer
    You can order shims here by the way

  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by HomegrownMN View Post
    Finally pulled the HSC stack from my 2011 Minute Expert to see what shim stack i have. Turns out it came stock with the XC stack, not the Trail stack.
    I had a total of 2 shims on top of the piston (diff than the OP) & the normal 1 below like the OP.
    Just thought i'd share. i'll be calling Manitou to see what i can do about ordering some more shims to play with.

    Oh and it looks like Manitou switched the piston (HSC) from an anodized alum to red plastic....not a big deal, but my 2011 is definetly diff than the OP.
    What is the OP?

  89. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by solitone View Post
    What is the OP?
    Wow. http://lmgtfy.com/?q=OP+%2B+urban+dictionary

    sent from my hand-held computer

  90. #90
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    lmgty.com one of my fav websites..I send that link to my wife all the time.


  91. #91
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    Good news & bad news....

    Good news, always first:
    After speaking to Manitou tech last week about my valving, i recieved a small envelope today. Inside was the 'speed shim' as Manitou calls it. This is essentially the only diff between the XC & TRAIL valving. It lies on top of the piston and then the 2 platform shims on top of that. Everything mic'd out as per Manitou's charts.(that link rules!)

    Installed the Speed Shim along with both Platform shims (removed 1 before) in the proper order. Reassembled & rode around the block a couple times.
    Initial impression is a much livelier feel & less platform. This setup also ramps up considerably compared to the XC valving that was real linear after the platform. Will be taking it out for a real ride thurs.
    This is my kinda feel. A couple clicks of comp damping and we should be good to go.

    Bad News: i didn't take any pics!
    (I hate messing with my camera while wearing oily latex gloves)

    I've got about 10hrs on mine so far and all i can say, are good things.

  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by HomegrownMN View Post
    Good news & bad news....

    Good news, always first:
    After speaking to Manitou tech last week about my valving, i recieved a small envelope today. Inside was the 'speed shim' as Manitou calls it. This is essentially the only diff between the XC & TRAIL valving. It lies on top of the piston and then the 2 platform shims on top of that. Everything mic'd out as per Manitou's charts.(that link rules!)

    Installed the Speed Shim along with both Platform shims (removed 1 before) in the proper order. Reassembled & rode around the block a couple times.
    Initial impression is a much livelier feel & less platform. This setup also ramps up considerably compared to the XC valving that was real linear after the platform. Will be taking it out for a real ride thurs.
    This is my kinda feel. A couple clicks of comp damping and we should be good to go.

    Bad News: i didn't take any pics!
    (I hate messing with my camera while wearing oily latex gloves)

    I've got about 10hrs on mine so far and all i can say, are good things.
    Thats great! Manitou costumer service is top notch.

  93. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by mullen119 View Post
    I dont see why it would have any effect on performance, but its still disappointing IMO.
    Why does it disappoint you? I would myself say an aluminum piston is more stiff and durable than a plastic one. But is this the case indeed?

  94. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by solitone View Post
    Why does it disappoint you? I would myself say an aluminum piston is more stiff and durable than a plastic one. But is this the case indeed?
    I would agree, My Drake came with an aluminum piston. When they switched the name "Drake" to "Minute Expert", They also must have switched from an aluminum piston to a plastic piston. Its really not a big deal, But its a little disappointing. I would much prefer my aluminum piston over the plastic.

  95. #95
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    Found what I think is the perfect setup for my Clyde ride!!! Running one velocity shim and four blow-off shims. My 29 M Minute is performing better than ever…

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    This seems like a good place to ask..what is the difference with the "jump stack" in the new circus forks? Does it still have tunable shims?

    I've got a circus on my dj bike..seems to work very well. I'm almost interested in picking one up for my AM rig and tuning it to work better on the trail. I like the fact that it is such a stout durable fork and i feel if i can tune it different, a 130 would make a good AM fork. what do you guys think?

  97. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by squints88 View Post
    This seems like a good place to ask..what is the difference with the "jump stack" in the new circus forks? Does it still have tunable shims?

    I've got a circus on my dj bike..seems to work very well. I'm almost interested in picking one up for my AM rig and tuning it to work better on the trail. I like the fact that it is such a stout durable fork and i feel if i can tune it different, a 130 would make a good AM fork. what do you guys think?
    Yes, I think you can tune the Circus, although I'd probably take the Minute, which is already tuned for trail riding and it seems stiff and durable as well.

    Regarding the jump stack, have a look at a couple of previous posts:

    Quote Originally Posted by solitone View Post
    I recently wrote to Manitou to ask the difference between the trail tuned ABS+ of Minute forks and the standard XC ABS+ of R7 forks.

    They sent me a useful document that explains the different configurations (XC, trail, linear) and how to tune the ABS+ damping system. It has lots of interesting graphs and drawings.

    This document isn't in their website, but they told me I can publish it. It is very informative and I think it could be helpful. You can find it here: ABS+ Tuning REV 3-10-2011.pdf
    Quote Originally Posted by solitone View Post
    I'm not sure, but I think it should be like this:

    - Production XC Stack: Marvel, R7, Tower, Match;
    - Production Trial Stack: Minute;
    - Production Jump Stack: Circus.

    I would have said that Tower had the same stack as Minute (being the same fork as Minute but for 29er), however Manitou's webpage doesn't specify trail tuning.

  98. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by squints88 View Post
    This seems like a good place to ask..what is the difference with the "jump stack" in the new circus forks? Does it still have tunable shims?

    I've got a circus on my dj bike..seems to work very well. I'm almost interested in picking one up for my AM rig and tuning it to work better on the trail. I like the fact that it is such a stout durable fork and i feel if i can tune it different, a 130 would make a good AM fork. what do you guys think?
    I think it would be overkill for an AM fork, but it certainly could be tuned to perform. It has all the same internals, just a different shim configuration. Considering you can find the Minute Expert for about the same price, I'd rather go that route, save about a pound and a half...
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    thanks i read over that pdf and it seems like the damper is the same and thie difference is simply in the shim stack.

    I am weighing the differeces between the minute and another circus..weight isn't really a concern for me as much as reliability. I've got a lot of downhill components on my bike that are a little overkill haha but i dont usually have to replace them thats for sure. Theres some great info in this thread i cant wait to tear into this new fork lol

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    I've got a 2011 R7, and I just did the shim stack mod last night.

    I ordered a bunch of shims to play with from these guys: www.racingsuspensionproducts.com

    What I really wanted was to swap from the stock XC stack to the Trail stack, which means adding one 17.5x0.2 Speed Shim. I couldn't find a perfect match for that, so I went with a 17x0.15 instead.

    With the stock XC stack I had found:

    1 click from fully open was beautiful on really rooty, technical stuff, but it had seriously unpredictable brakedive.
    3~4 clicks mostly eliminated the brakedive, but was significantly harsher
    2 clicks was kindof the worst of both worlds.

    So I put in the speed shim last night (took maybe 20 minutes) and went for a nice long ride today. The new stack is definitely a better fit for me, because I was able to run at 4~5 clicks and have no brakedive, but still a nice supple ride. With this setup I still have more platform than I need, so I may add a second speed shim or remove/swap one of the blowoff shims with something smaller. Definitely a nice mod, though.

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