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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by PMK
    I am assuming this is way lubricant for CNC machining centers. Never tested this nor the Lubro-Moly.

    What is the availability of this stuff and in what quantity?
    Do they have a technical data sheet?
    yes
    5 gal buckets or 55gal drums
    see below
    Quote Originally Posted by bad mechanic
    Considering it's adhesive properties, do you think you might have any problems getting all the old oil out of the fork?
    Don't think that will be a problem

    I'd think it probably is, but do you know if it's seal safe?
    probably yes
    Last edited by beanbag; 04-25-2011 at 12:33 PM.

  2. #52
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    I did an informal test where I used a nitrile glove and smeared a bit of oil on the stanchions and then moved my finger back and forth to get an idea of the initial starting friction vs dynamic friction. Ranked from best to worst:

    Slick Honey grease
    Mobil Vacuoline 1409, Mobil Vactra #2 (comparable)
    Lubro Moly 5-40
    Mobil 1 5-30
    Torco RFF 20W

    Seems to be correlated with viscosity also.

    Mobil Vactra #2 is also a way lubricant, albeit with less addititives than Vacuoline. What happened several years back was that due to EPA reasons, Mobil took some tackifiers out of Vactra without telling anybody. There followed a string of machine failures, I believe printing presses. Mobil put the additives back, but in a new product called Vacuoline.

    So Vactra is a less tackified version, although more commonly available in 1 gal jugs.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by beanbag
    I did an informal test where I used a nitrile glove and smeared a bit of oil on the stanchions and then moved my finger back and forth to get an idea of the initial starting friction vs dynamic friction. Ranked from best to worst:

    Slick Honey grease
    Mobil Vacuoline 1409, Mobil Vactra #2 (comparable)
    Lubro Moly 5-40
    Mobil 1 5-30
    Torco RFF 20W

    Seems to be correlated with viscosity also.

    Mobil Vactra #2 is also a way lubricant, albeit with less addititives than Vacuoline. What happened several years back was that due to EPA reasons, Mobil took some tackifiers out of Vactra without telling anybody. There followed a string of machine failures, I believe printing presses. Mobil put the additives back, but in a new product called Vacuoline.

    So Vactra is a less tackified version, although more commonly available in 1 gal jugs.
    I should also add that Lubro Moly slides better than Maxima fork oil (two lazy to run downstairs to check the viscosity, but I think it's 5 wt.

    I was told by a SRAM tech to use grease in the positive air chambers (and I think the fork lowers). I was actually thinking of using Redline assembly lube and thin it down with some motor oil. This was for a slow leaking air chamber problem I have.

    http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=77&pcid=17

    Beanbag, I will trade you a pressure cooker for some Vacuoline.

  4. #54
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    My current hypothesis is that maybe you should run the thickest oil possible that can still splash around and migrate up the stanchions. For example, the next thicker grade of way oil, 15W motor oil, assembly lube dissolved in oil, etc.

    One of the properties of tackifiers is that for a given viscosity, they leave a thicker film and have more cling. If it turns out that oil film thickness is the only important feature, and not anti-friction additives, then maybe bar and chain oil really is the best. Aside from questionable base stock, they tend to have excessive amounts of tackifier, to the point that sometimes the oil get stringy.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by beanbag
    My current hypothesis is that maybe you should run the thickest oil possible that can still splash around and migrate up the stanchions. For example, the next thicker grade of way oil, 15W motor oil, assembly lube dissolved in oil, etc.

    One of the properties of tackifiers is that for a given viscosity, they leave a thicker film and have more cling. If it turns out that oil film thickness is the only important feature, and not anti-friction additives, then maybe bar and chain oil really is the best. Aside from questionable base stock, they tend to have excessive amounts of tackifier, to the point that sometimes the oil get stringy.

    FWIW, when testing various products, initially all forks were not twin chambers or closed cartridge. This forced the tuner to optimize fluid for both suspension damping and fork frictions.

    With Showa twin cartridge forks, the fork was designed to be "wet", with the same fluid in the cartridge assembly and tubes.

    Free moving forks are a good goal. With the Showas, using different fluids made a difference. This is where I heard of Mobil 1 engine oil being used. We tested on a CRF450r and found the Mobil 1 engine oil would not wipe away by the seals. This is how the performance was increased. Probably not so much the drag from the DU's, but rather the squeegy effect of the seal. Remember moto forks run two seals like Marzocchi Z1's and other wet forks. Unfortunately, by design, engine or bath fluid will be forced into the cartridge, this obviously diminishes damping performance. So for good forks, as is often true, they require constant maintenance.

    Freeing up forks that run only a dust seal, like our Fox 40 is not that difficult, do as they say and invert the forks for a while. This will wet the seals backside (and foam rings).

    Forks that run dust seals and oil seals are more difficult, often because the damping fluid is the same as lubrication fluid. These seem to prefer the use of the wet foam ring if possible. The amount of fluid able to be retained over time is a key to how long the forks feel good. Yes the Honda CRF twin chambers did run dust and oil seals, but for whatever reason, the Mobil 1 engine oil was not easily wiped away by either seal. It was as if the oil had permeated the microscopic pores of the chrome.

    As for the results showing Slick Honey on top, I would believe that with your glove test. I have tried Slick Honey as a moto type seal grease. I'd say it's good for about an hour before it wipes dry.

    The Way lube and Lubro-Moly I have not tested.

    Also, it doesn't hurt to keep the tubes as clean as possible, water spots will make a difference that can be felt. Some riders constantly wipe down the tubes with Lemon Pledge on a rag, Silicone also. I prefer foam rings and continuous service programs.

    PK

  6. #56
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    It seems to me like way lube's properties would be well suited to the sliding interface in a fork. I'm now looking to get my hands on some to test out.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by beanbag
    My current hypothesis is that maybe you should run the thickest oil possible that can still splash around and migrate up the stanchions. For example, the next thicker grade of way oil, 15W motor oil, assembly lube dissolved in oil, etc.

    One of the properties of tackifiers is that for a given viscosity, they leave a thicker film and have more cling. If it turns out that oil film thickness is the only important feature, and not anti-friction additives, then maybe bar and chain oil really is the best. Aside from questionable base stock, they tend to have excessive amounts of tackifier, to the point that sometimes the oil get stringy.
    Well, my experiments over the past week have proven to me that bar oil does work better. I tried some Mobil 1 ATF per PMK and it worked about as well as the Mobil 1 5W-30 I previously used. On the next ride, I changed out the ATF for M1 5W-30 and it felt about the same as I remembered . Next ride, I put the bar oil back in and the fork felt noticably better.

    There is no doubt that the bar oil is tackier and sticks to the stantions better than motor oil. Also, it is a bit thicker than the 5W-30 but still should splash around well. When I tore down the fork after the first bar oil trial, everything was very well coated, all the way up to the seals.

    As I mentioned in my previous post, if I clean down my stantions with alcohol, you can feel the microscopic pitting (or whatever you would call it) of the anodizing. Compress the fork just once, and the portion of the stantion that dropped below the dust seal is super smooth and you can feel the lube, almost like putting Finish Line stantion lube on.

    For now I am sold on bar oil. I change my oil monthly, and my first trial was only about 3 weeks. Durability is yet to be determined, but I don't see why it would not hold up. When I dropped the oil after the first trial, all looked very good, actually better than when I would change the M1. Maybe there is something to the dirt particles being held in suspension with motor oil????
    "Three balls at once...who knew?" - Cotton McKnight

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiSS'er

    There is no doubt that the bar oil is tackier and sticks to the stantions better than motor oil. Also, it is a bit thicker than the 5W-30 but still should splash around well.

    As I mentioned in my previous post, if I clean down my stantions with alcohol, you can feel the microscopic pitting (or whatever you would call it) of the anodizing. Compress the fork just once, and the portion of the stantion that dropped below the dust seal is super smooth and you can feel the lube, almost like putting Finish Line stantion lube on.
    Your oil is probably about 120+ cst at 40C. Mobil 1 5-30 is only about 63 cst. My way oil is only 68. I wouldn't be surprised if your oil seal didn't completely wipe away the film. On my Reba, aside from the initial seeping from oil stuck between the dust wiper and oil seal, my stanchions are dry but smooth. Maybe I should put a few dribbles of light weight oil between the seals as a lube, but I haven't noticed a performance difference between oily seals vs "dry" seals covered with mud as I experienced in a ride yesterday.

    The stiction in my fork increases when I side load it, so I assume that most of the friction comes from the bushings and not the seals anyway.

  9. #59
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    Anyone seen the Kiwi...must be out testing, or reading.

    PK

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by beanbag
    Your oil is probably about 120+ cst at 40C. Mobil 1 5-30 is only about 63 cst. My way oil is only 68. I wouldn't be surprised if your oil seal didn't completely wipe away the film. On my Reba, aside from the initial seeping from oil stuck between the dust wiper and oil seal, my stanchions are dry but smooth. Maybe I should put a few dribbles of light weight oil between the seals as a lube, but I haven't noticed a performance difference between oily seals vs "dry" seals covered with mud as I experienced in a ride yesterday.

    The stiction in my fork increases when I side load it, so I assume that most of the friction comes from the bushings and not the seals anyway.
    OK, so the CST of Rock Shox heavy oil used for the bath is 43 @ 40. I have been using Mobil 1 5w-30 which is about 63 @40. M1 5W-20 is 50@ 40. M1 Synthetic ATF is 34 @ 40

    Would it make more sense to run M1 5W-20 since the CST values are closer?

    I should note that the viscosity index of the M1 5W-20 is 160, 5W-30 is 172, M1 ATF is 199, and the RS bath is 250
    "Three balls at once...who knew?" - Cotton McKnight

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by PMK
    Anyone seen the Kiwi...must be out testing, or reading.PK
    Still around, but generally bored with this thread. Each to his own I guess - but nice to know you care and that I'm in your thoughts.

    I did go for a great ride over the long weekend and tested my limits on a couple of new structures. As for reading, I'm enjoying a good sci-fi book at the moment.

    How did your fork servicing go?
    A green bird with a red body. We could look it up in a book. Or we could look up

  12. #62
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    So does anyone know how to check if Mobil 1, or any synthetic motor oil has detergents or engine cleansers??

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeerhillJDOG
    So does anyone know how to check if Mobil 1, or any synthetic motor oil has detergents or engine cleansers??
    They have them unless stated on the label (all oils designed for modern motors). I've found some SAE 30 detergentless oil at AutoZone for my air compressor.

    FWIW the BEST resource for this kind of info has come from the Enduro Seal guys (who know a thing or two about stiction). They are also right about ATF attacking seals - they don't last as long (been there, done that). I use Castrol Syntec 5W-40 for splash oil and love it - WAY plusher than the recommended 15 weight that you won't go back to once you've tried what really works (any good synthetic motor oil) for splash oil. Bad Mechanic had it right from the start. PUSH gets their oil in bulk from Maxima and have no reason to use expensive synthetics for splash oil - IN FACT they told me to use syn motor oil when I change it out myself!

    Have FUN!

    G MAN
    Last edited by Gman086; 04-28-2011 at 09:31 AM.
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  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiSS'er
    OK, so the CST of Rock Shox heavy oil used for the bath is 43 @ 40. I have been using Mobil 1 5w-30 which is about 63 @40. M1 5W-20 is 50@ 40. M1 Synthetic ATF is 34 @ 40

    Would it make more sense to run M1 5W-20 since the CST values are closer?

    I should note that the viscosity index of the M1 5W-20 is 160, 5W-30 is 172, M1 ATF is 199, and the RS bath is 250
    My guess is that the M1 5-20 would work worse than the 5-30 due to lower viscosity.

    So far, my observations from other people's experiences is that a thicker oil usually beats a thinner oil. (Except that the Vacuoline 68 cst beat the 5-40 Motor oil 86 cst, but it does have better "cling".) So if you want to use a suspension fork fluid, get a thick one, like Bel-ray Fork oil 30W (105 cst).

    I don't think the VI of the oil matters that much unless you ride in cold condition and it somehow gets too thick.

    If you want to use bar and chain lube, maybe try a brand with higher quality base stock and a better tackifier, like Stihl oil or Amsoil.

    You are the real pioneer here, running the thickest and tackiest oil, so I am interested in how things turn out for you.
    Last edited by beanbag; 04-28-2011 at 01:15 AM.

  15. #65
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    Ride impressions after 6 hrs of use

    The fork has kind of a rubbery under-damped sensation when hitting bumps slowly. But if I turn up the rebound damping the front wheel seems to lose tracking over faster hits. So IOW it seems like I need more low speed damping now, which is consistent with the reduction of zero speed damping, or stiction.

    I can feel a little bit of stiction when stationary and pushing down on the fork, although less than with the previous oils. I can't feel any stiction when the bike is in motion and the fork is slightly moving.

    I went down this one section of trail about 10% grade that had 1.5" and smaller bumps. I dragged the front brake so I only went about 5mph, and couldn't feel much from the handlebars. It was kind of a weird sensation because I could feel the back of the bike moving around.

    The previous oil, and the stock oil also, weren't bad, so overall this was a noticeable, but not major, improvement.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by beanbag
    The fork has kind of a rubbery under-damped sensation when hitting bumps slowly. But if I turn up the rebound damping the front wheel seems to lose tracking over faster hits. So IOW it seems like I need more low speed damping now, which is consistent with the reduction of zero speed damping, or stiction.

    I can feel a little bit of stiction when stationary and pushing down on the fork, although less than with the previous oils. I can't feel any stiction when the bike is in motion and the fork is slightly moving.

    I went down this one section of trail about 10% grade that had 1.5" and smaller bumps. I dragged the front brake so I only went about 5mph, and couldn't feel much from the handlebars. It was kind of a weird sensation because I could feel the back of the bike moving around.

    The previous oil, and the stock oil also, weren't bad, so overall this was a noticeable, but not major, improvement.
    That's the thing, once you run something decent, any improvement is so subtle it is almost not measurable. In a perfect world, stiction is only a problem setting a precise rider sag, which is almost useless on forks. Underway, in theory the fork never stops moving so dynamic drag is the concern.

    The foam rings play a big part in keeping seals lubricated.

    PK

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiSS'er
    OK, so the CST of Rock Shox heavy oil used for the bath is 43 @ 40. I have been using Mobil 1 5w-30 which is about 63 @40. M1 5W-20 is 50@ 40. M1 Synthetic ATF is 34 @ 40

    Would it make more sense to run M1 5W-20 since the CST values are closer?

    I should note that the viscosity index of the M1 5W-20 is 160, 5W-30 is 172, M1 ATF is 199, and the RS bath is 250
    FWIW, those CST are all mid range. I seriously doubt you will even be able to tell a difference based on CST.

    Additionally, for your test results, whether based onlooking for better reduction in dynamic drag, stiction or damping effect, must have consistent prep.

    For each test, the fork MUST be disassembled and washed with solvent that can remove all traces of previous lubricant. Alcohol won't do this. Best inexpensive method is some form of a parts washer, followed by a fast evaporating solvent such as brake cleaner or even lacquer thinner.

    Then service the fork exactly the same each time.

    If the fork runs foam rings, they should be removed for testing fluids.

    Also, it is imperative that each time the front wheel is installed you follow exactly the same sequence of installing the wheel and torquing the fasteners. The number of forks with huge stiction and drag on account of the person not installing the wheel correctly is probably 50% or more.

    PK

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by kiwirider
    Still around, but generally bored with this thread. Each to his own I guess - but nice to know you care and that I'm in your thoughts.

    I did go for a great ride over the long weekend and tested my limits on a couple of new structures. As for reading, I'm enjoying a good sci-fi book at the moment.

    How did your fork servicing go?
    Glad to hear you still check in. As I mentioned, I have no problem with you viewpoint about fluid, provided you can back it up without a he said she said basis. There are some very good suspension fluids out there, also some very bad ones. Maxima is good stuff.

    As for the fork servicing, it went good and bad. Bad on account that this being the second outer tube fluid change, the fluid levels had dropped considerably during use. Based on the Fox published service interval, normal use for us is going to see the Fox timeline factored by about 1/2. Once disassemble and cleaned, serviced with fluid, the performance jumped back to where it should be. There is much truth also from inverting the forks to lube the seals and upper DU.

    PK

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by PMK
    As for the fork servicing, it went good and bad. Bad on account that this being the second outer tube fluid change, the fluid levels had dropped considerably during use. Based on the Fox published service interval, normal use for us is going to see the Fox timeline factored by about 1/2.
    Have you considered using these?
    http://www.enduroforkseals.com/id199.html

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by bad mechanic
    Have you considered using these?
    http://www.enduroforkseals.com/id199.html

    Nope, not for open type forks. I prefer to seal the wet ring to indicate the seals are being lubed. The thing about this recent service is the fork started knocking, common in 40's. Could not believe the fluid level had diminished enough to lessen the lube on the upper DU.

    Still had a faint wet ring, so I wrongly assumed the forks internals had failed. Pulled it apart, all is good, new fluid, BTW FOX seems to have increased the amount of fluid, so all is good now.

    When Fox releases the SKF seals I will opt in for them.

    PK

  21. #71
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    On a Lyrik Solo air, is it good to use the Mobil 1 on top of the air piston as well?

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by PMK
    That's the thing, once you run something decent, any improvement is so subtle it is almost not measurable.
    PK
    I think this is very true. Now that I have some time on the Bar oil, the fork feels about the same as it did with M1. I think the first few weeks the fork still had the nicely lubed seals and wipers. I have put a lot of miles on the bar oil in the past few weeks and it seems to feel normal again. Not bad, but not necessarily better than M1. Chances are I will go back to M1 as the quality of the oil is better. I have used it for years and my bushings have always lasted, telling me that it is doing its job. A coupl more hard weeks on the bar oil and I will see how it looks.
    "Three balls at once...who knew?" - Cotton McKnight

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by flyxaos
    On a Lyrik Solo air, is it good to use the Mobil 1 on top of the air piston as well?

    I do with no ill effects. It is there primarily to lube the seals and provide some additional progression to the air spring.
    "Three balls at once...who knew?" - Cotton McKnight

  24. #74
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    I prefer to use something heavier in the air chamber, which is why I use 80w gear oil.

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gman086
    PUSH gets their oil in volume from Maxima and have no reason to use expensive synthetics for splash oil - IN FACT they told me to use syn motor oil when I change it out myself

    Push told me not to use motor oil, that was 4-5 years ago though.. maybe that was to prevent people from using it in open bath forks.

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