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  1. #26
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    BTW, I ran across a post by the Enduro seals guy that says that ATF attacks seals.

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by beanbag
    BTW, I ran across a post by the Enduro seals guy that says that ATF attacks seals.
    Yes some ATF will swell seals badly.

    FWIW, many suspension fluids contain the infamous "seal swellers", pretty much the same attack.

    I have run Factory Connection GSF fluid in a Fox ALPs air shock, it swelled the seal enough I had to beat it apart with a block of wood and plastic mallet. When the shaft released, the seal "popped" out, it had swollen in all dimension to approximately 25% oversize, but softened.

    Run what you prefer, the key is to find the lowest possible sliding drag, lowest break away force, and provide no attack on the seals, while still offering excellent hydraulic performance with little or no foaming if needed. Liquid silicone isn't bad but it is expensive and does not release bubbles well.

    Everything is a compromise.

    Not I nor TNC recommended an inexpensive low quality product. When readers "adapt" the idea of Mobil1 ATF to be regular ATF that's fine, but we did not say that.

    Same with suspension fluid, Fox says use their stuff, nobody wants to pay the price, I have never seen a Fox published document that says exactly what their fluid is. Truth be told, Fox fluid, it's not expensive compared to Race Tech, Ohlins WP, or KYB01 or it's sisters. Everybody wants a bargain. As I said, everything is a compromise.

    PK

  3. #28
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    Use Redline for damping and Mobil1 for OB

    I just posted on this in another thread. http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.ph...82132#poststop

    As others posted suspension oil is made for damping, which means low foaming. I used Redline in the closed FIT damper. The suspension fluids don't cling or stick as well so they don't work as well to lubricate. This is why Fox has two oils, the red and the green.

    I couldn't be happier with my choices, bike is running better than ever.

    BZ

  4. #29
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    There is a really good sticky oil in my local car motofactor shop, it's a oil stablizer downside its expensive so not splashed out on it yet, should be great for inside the air piston on my RS Reba's and for Oil bath in the lowers to.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by beanbag
    As for using motor oil, it is not clear to me whether this is the best choice. From what I read, it is designed to hold contamination in solution in the expectation that the oil filter will take it out. It doesn't contain much (if any) of the tackifiers since there is the expectation that it gets pumped or sprayed onto parts. I don't think its stick-slip properties at slow speeds are the best either.
    I've really wanted to switch to motor oil for some time. This^^ is the reason I have held out on the motor oil as well. I wonder how much dirt/contamination sinks to the bottom of the legs and actually stays there w/ suspension fluid.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by PMK
    PUSH is not the OEM. What gives them the right to run non approved fluid? Like others here, knowledge from testing.

    As for knowing better than PUSH, well let's say that long before PUSH, there was a time when my passion for suspension was greater than it is today. Suffice to say there has been a lot of fluid used over the years.

    Thanks for trying to correct me. Seriously...thanks

    Additionally, this is not a slam on PUSH. Darren and I do not agree on all things, but that's ok, there is a need for his services.

    Engineers Thank god for technicians, otherwise the world would stop turning while it was plotted, graphed, FEA'd, strain tested, and NDT'd.

    Come on man lighten up, you know you could easily fab a home test with sliding weights just as others have to show proof of concept.

    FWIW, I changed the lowers fluid in our Fox 40 Kashima...Mobil1 10-30, 10 minute job for better performance.PK
    Wow! God complex, at Easter no less. There is some irony for you.

    That is the most patronising, know-it-all thread I have read in a long time.

    I don't need to lighten up - I find your zealous attitude to M1 a bit of a laugh, and it's so very easy to get you wound up about it.

    You know nothing about what type of engineer I am, or what my history is with respect to motorcycles and mountain bikes. I choose not to regularly post my resume like yourself in order to justify fiction, suffice to say that I have owned, rebuilt, tuned and tinkered with all things two wheels for over 25 years.
    A green bird with a red body. We could look it up in a book. Or we could look up

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeerhillJDOG
    I've really wanted to switch to motor oil for some time. This^^ is the reason I have held out on the motor oil as well. I wonder how much dirt/contamination sinks to the bottom of the legs and actually stays there w/ suspension fluid.
    In a Float service video the service technician (not engineer...) states that you wipe the accumulated sludge out of the bottom of the lowers. Does a fork-specific oil better allow the particles (aluminium, worn bushings etc) to drop out of the fluid and accumulate in the bottom of the fork? Whereas the additives in engine oil keep the particles in suspension for removal by the oil filter - which of course does not exist in a fork.

    The thought of all those particles of metal continously circulating around my fork isn't all that exciting.
    A green bird with a red body. We could look it up in a book. Or we could look up

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by PMK

    FWIW, I changed the lowers fluid in our Fox 40 Kashima...Mobil1 10-30, 10 minute job for better performance.

    PK
    How come you didn't use the M1 ATF?

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by beanbag
    How come you didn't use the M1 ATF?
    No hydraulic circuits.

    PK

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by kiwirider
    In a Float service video the service technician (not engineer...) states that you wipe the accumulated sludge out of the bottom of the lowers. Does a fork-specific oil better allow the particles (aluminium, worn bushings etc) to drop out of the fluid and accumulate in the bottom of the fork? Whereas the additives in engine oil keep the particles in suspension for removal by the oil filter - which of course does not exist in a fork.

    The thought of all those particles of metal continously circulating around my fork isn't all that exciting.

    FWIW, if there is true metal to metal contact there is big problems. The tubes are hard anodized and the Du's Teflon lined, the spring is coated then has a polymer sleeve over it.

    Not much chance for true metal to metal wear, or even for metal particles. If the bushings started peeling it would still be Teflon floating around.

    PK

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by PMK
    No hydraulic circuits.

    PK
    ur claim earlier was that M1 ATF was a better stanchion lube than M1 motor oil.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by beanbag
    ur claim earlier was that M1 ATF was a better stanchion lube than M1 motor oil.
    Please link or quote the post.

    Thanks
    PK

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by PMK
    Also, while M1 Engine Oil is a decent outer chamber fluid...

    However, M1 ATF is actually very good at both.

    PK
    "very good" > "decent"

  14. #39
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    Kiwi, bottom line is this is not a cat fight. These readers want to know about suspension fluid.

    Have you tested tested other fluids in your bicycle suspension?

    What fluids?

    What were the results?

    If you have not tested other fluids, how do you know you aren't coming up short on performance?

    PK

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by beanbag
    "very good" > "decent"

    Interpret post #10 how you see fit.

    The entire post reads

    Also, while M1 Engine Oil is a decent outer chamber fluid, as mentioned it is not a good damping fluid.

    However, M1 ATF is actually very good at both.

    FWIW, most of the testing I have done seems to indicate the better the fluids VI number the worse it slides.

    Has anyone here ever tried Dave J's fluid in a bicycle?

    PK


    Sorry for the wording confusion.

    Possibly it should read

    However, M1 ATF is actually very good at both when compared to many true suspension fluids.

    PK

  16. #41
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    All I wanna know is whether M1 ATF or Motor oil works better as a stanchion lube.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by beanbag
    All I wanna know is whether M1 ATF or Motor oil works better as a stanchion lube.
    Mobil 1 engine oil is a better stanchion lube vs M1 ATF.

    PK

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by beanbag
    All I wanna know is whether M1 ATF or Motor oil works better as a stanchion lube.
    It quite possibly does.
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  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by PMK
    Kiwi, bottom line is this is not a cat fight. These readers want to know about suspension fluid.

    Have you tested tested other fluids in your bicycle suspension?

    What fluids?

    What were the results?

    If you have not tested other fluids, how do you know you aren't coming up short on performance?PK
    I think I see the problem - your definition of performance does not include reliability.

    Kinda like running nitrous in the family car....
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  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by kiwirider
    I think I see the problem - your definition of performance does not include reliability.

    Kinda like running nitrous in the family car....
    Aside from you pithy remarks, I'm still waiting for you to answer PMK's questions. Here, let me refresh your memory:
    Have you tested tested other fluids in your bicycle suspension?
    What fluids?
    What were the results?
    If you have not tested other fluids, how do you know you aren't coming up short on performance?


    Last time I checked, experience trumps theory.

  21. #46
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    just wondering here how everyone feels about spectro oils? They are recommended by the local moto shop.

    Can you add a Teflon grease to the seals (as well as the the recommended oil) to help them slide and seal, during the rebuild?

  22. #47
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    Today I went on a ride using Mobil Vacuoline 1409 in the stanchions of my Reba, and I can say that it works noticeably better than Lubro-Moly 5-40 Synthetic motor oil, which somebody else gave me saying that it worked better than Mobil 1. So due to transitive property... I have some Mobil 1, but haven't tested it. Here are some properties of the Vacuoline:

    Product Description
    Mobil Vacuoline 1400 Series oils are extra high performance lubricants specifically designed to satisfy the requirements of machine tools that use one oil for both hydraulic systems and way lubrication. They are formulated using high quality mineral base oils and a unique additive technology that provides excellent lubricity properties to eliminate stick-slip and chatter of heavily loaded and vertical box ways. They exhibit a high degree of oxidation and thermal stability that increases the service life and helps keep lubricated surfaces clean and free from corrosion or deposits that could detract from finished parts quality and accuracy. Mobil Vacuoline 1400 Series provide the optimum balance between these divergent requirements.

    Features Advantages and Potential Benefits
    Low Frictional Characteristics Eliminates stick-slip and chatter of ways
    Improves precision of parts
    Provides consistent good work piece finish
    Oxidation and Thermal Stability Allows extension of service intervals
    Reduces deposit and sludge formation
    Keeps equipment lubricated surfaces clean
    Rust and Corrosion Protection Maintains excellent finish on ways
    Reduces maintenance for rust and corrosion removal
    Water and Water-Based Separability Reduces the negative effects of these materials on working surfaces
    Enhances aqueous coolant batch life and performance
    Facilitates removal of water and water-based coolants from hydraulic systems and enhances service life
    Adhesive Properties Resists wash-off from ways
    Protects surfaces from rust and corrosion
    Assures consistent parts finish and accuracy
    Load-Carrying Properties Reduce wear
    Extend equipment life
    Multi-metal Compatibility Provides protection of ferrous and non-ferrous components
    Dual Purpose Design Eliminates concerns of cross contamination and product mis-application
    In other words, this oil is designed to minimize friction on sliding surfaces and has good adhesion. Don't know yet about it's long term properties in a fork, though.

  23. #48
    PMK
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    Quote Originally Posted by beanbag
    Today I went on a ride using Mobil Vacuoline 1409 in the stanchions of my Reba, and I can say that it works noticeably better than Lubro-Moly 5-40 Synthetic motor oil, which somebody else gave me saying that it worked better than Mobil 1. So due to transitive property... I have some Mobil 1, but haven't tested it. Here are some properties of the Vacuoline:



    In other words, this oil is designed to minimize friction on sliding surfaces and has good adhesion. Don't know yet about it's long term properties in a fork, though.
    I am assuming this is way lubricant for CNC machining centers. Never tested this nor the Lubro-Moly.

    What is the availability of this stuff and in what quantity?
    Do they have a technical data sheet?

    PK

  24. #49
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    Considering it's adhesive properties, do you think you might have any problems getting all the old oil out of the fork? I'd think it probably is, but do you know if it's seal safe?

    These are the specs I found:
    http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lub...line_1400.aspx
    and
    http://www.liqui-moly.de/liquimoly/m...205W-40_EN.pdf

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by kiwirider
    In a Float service video the service technician (not engineer...) states that you wipe the accumulated sludge out of the bottom of the lowers. Does a fork-specific oil better allow the particles (aluminium, worn bushings etc) to drop out of the fluid and accumulate in the bottom of the fork? Whereas the additives in engine oil keep the particles in suspension for removal by the oil filter - which of course does not exist in a fork.

    The thought of all those particles of metal continously circulating around my fork isn't all that exciting.

    Maybe we need a screen to keep some of the junk away from circulation, I like my fork to last as long as possible.. anyway when I get a new fork I'm too busy with figuring the damper fluid. Figure I'll stick with what is recommended and just ride until the metal shavings start to disappear.

    I'll eventually try some 0-30 synthetic, but I don't know which one doesn't include engine cleanser/detergent..

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