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  1. #1
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    Adding piggyback in metel R? shim tunning possible?

    iīve been reading about all the stuff about manitou platform, and i wish it wasnt featured on my rear shock.
    itīs a 2005 metel R on a monopivot Haro X2. i guess the platform isnt as sofisticated as on better shocks and i wish it wasnt there.

    i do urban riding and freeride. Happens that the shock is not as plush as i would like. mainly compression wise, rebound is adjustable and it works normally. what happens

    i read this tuning stuff about adding a extra piggyback to improve better response.

    http://www.rodinhas.net/media/manuai...r_Traseiro.pdf

    sorry itīs in portuguese...it says that they took the shock apart and with an extra shock body and a hidraulic tube from a yamaha they build a floating piston piggyback and said it really improved. it has nice pictures of it. they added a valve to add air as needed.

    my question is:

    1- is this upgrade possible on my shock? thereīs a hole plugged with a tiny bolt on the other side of the rebound knob, could this be the better place to fit the hidro tube? would it work and would it take much labour? i do my maintenance on forks, but never serviced rear shocks...

    2- Has anyone took it apart (dougal or the manitou experts?) and knows how the metel system is made of? is shim tuning possible?

    3- i know that the shock has gas in it to prevent cavitation, if the shock was taken apart, could it be reinflated with simple air? or it would be better to be nitrogen?



    Also i have a manitou xvert that has a broken rebound shim? were can i buy this stuff? at motorcycle shops? online shops?

    thanks in advance

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcolino
    iīve been reading about all the stuff about manitou platform, and i wish it wasnt featured on my rear shock.
    itīs a 2005 metel R on a monopivot Haro X2. i guess the platform isnt as sofisticated as on better shocks and i wish it wasnt there.

    i do urban riding and freeride. Happens that the shock is not as plush as i would like. mainly compression wise, rebound is adjustable and it works normally. what happens

    i read this tuning stuff about adding a extra piggyback to improve better response.

    http://www.rodinhas.net/media/manuai...r_Traseiro.pdf

    sorry itīs in portuguese...it says that they took the shock apart and with an extra shock body and a hidraulic tube from a yamaha they build a floating piston piggyback and said it really improved. it has nice pictures of it. they added a valve to add air as needed.

    my question is:

    1- is this upgrade possible on my shock? thereīs a hole plugged with a tiny bolt on the other side of the rebound knob, could this be the better place to fit the hidro tube? would it work and would it take much labour? i do my maintenance on forks, but never serviced rear shocks...

    2- Has anyone took it apart (dougal or the manitou experts?) and knows how the metel system is made of? is shim tuning possible?

    3- i know that the shock has gas in it to prevent cavitation, if the shock was taken apart, could it be reinflated with simple air? or it would be better to be nitrogen?



    Also i have a manitou xvert that has a broken rebound shim? were can i buy this stuff? at motorcycle shops? online shops?

    thanks in advance
    No experience on the METEL, but if you remove the N2 charge, you can reinflate with air. Yeah, it has moisture in it, it's not as stable as N2... but I don't think the difference would be night and day.

    Take your time to replace the inflation port with a schrader valve, so you can not only reinflate, but also tune the shock with a simple shock pump.

    As if the shock can be tuned with shims... I don't know. But by changing the pressure in the IFP chamber and playing with oil wt, you could put the shock where you want.

    The remote reservoir should be connected to the N2 inflation port. If you can insert a needle or any metering valve there, you'll have adjustable compression... and if the reservoir has a some volume adjustment in the IFP chamber, that'd be great.
    Check my Site

  3. #3
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    thanks for the reply warp!

    By the inflation port you mean the hex nut with a tiny philips + bolt in it, that is on the opposite side of the rebound knob?

    if thas what you mean, mine is similar to the one on page 11, step 4 on the pdf below, altough this one is from an air shock...

    http://www.hbsuspension.com/guides/S...1%3A06%3A12+AM


    well, that said i am probably gonna try it to reduce a little pressure from it, when i have the time... for now iīll do the replacing the hex nut for the schrader valve and tune the pressure. then iīll try the external piggyback later!

    when i undo this hex nut and philips bolt will the pressure come off violently?


    thanks again!
    Last edited by Marcolino; 05-18-2007 at 11:38 AM.

  4. #4
    "El Whatever"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcolino
    thanks for the reply warp!

    By the inflation port you mean the hex nut with a tiny philips + bolt in it, that is on the opposite side of the rebound knob?
    It's on the end of the shock that t DOES NOT have the rebound knob.

    Be careful... if you move the shock's shaft while the shock is depressurized, the IFP will most likely move, which could affect the shock performance negatively.

    Check out this pic... it can be seen on the side of the shock that is attached to the downtube, pointing towards the top tube.



    Quote Originally Posted by Marcolino
    if thas what you mean, mine is similar to the one on page 11, step 4 on the pdf below, altough this one is from an air shock...

    http://www.hbsuspension.com/guides/S...1%3A06%3A12+AM


    well, that said i am probably gonna try it to reduce a little pressure from it, when i have the time... for now iīll do the replacing the hex nut for the schrader valve and tune the pressure. then iīll try the external piggyback later!

    when i undo this hex nut and philips bolt will the pressure come off violently?


    thanks again!
    The Swinger can be depressurized with the Schrader valve and the valve can be removed with an allen wrench.

    The Metel, has a more traditional system, with an hex cap and a rubber membrane (it's just a rubber piece with good "memory"), which you fill by piercing the rubber piece with an injection needle. The pressure and the rubber's "memory" keep the gas in.

    You can release this pressure by carefully undoing the nut a 1/4 of a turn.. you'll hear a hiss, do not unscrew completely the nut until you hear no more hiss.

    Be careful, there's at least like 200 PSI there (like 14bar).
    Check my Site

  5. #5
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    ok, thatīs confirmed!

    well 14 bar! Thatīs a lot of pressure! i reaaallly must go slowly, right?

    i once had this suntour air fork, i barely touched the air valve and that deflated the fork a lot!

    in that case i guess it was a low volume chamber, but it was posible to refill, but in case of this shock, could i over do it?

    itīs probably a smaller chamber than the suntour fork... and higher pressure...

    iīm itching to try it!!!

    if i mess up, what sort of needle i need? hipodermical conected to suspension pump?

    thanks Warp!

    ps- how do you know this stuff?

    do you dismantle stuff like this on a daily basis?

    i try to read the manuals on the net, but sometimes theyīre incomplete and misterious...

    so i end up taking things apart...itīs better than reading about it, eheh

  6. #6
    "El Whatever"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcolino
    ok, thatīs confirmed!

    well 14 bar! Thatīs a lot of pressure! i reaaallly must go slowly, right?

    i once had this suntour air fork, i barely touched the air valve and that deflated the fork a lot!

    in that case i guess it was a low volume chamber, but it was posible to refill, but in case of this shock, could i over do it?

    itīs probably a smaller chamber than the suntour fork... and higher pressure...

    iīm itching to try it!!!

    if i mess up, what sort of needle i need? hipodermical conected to suspension pump?

    thanks Warp!

    ps- how do you know this stuff?

    do you dismantle stuff like this on a daily basis?

    i try to read the manuals on the net, but sometimes theyīre incomplete and misterious...

    so i end up taking things apart...itīs better than reading about it, eheh
    Yeah, go slowly on this one!!

    You need something like this...
    http://www.risseracing.com/product_a...ies.shtml#pump



    How do I know about this stuff??

    Obrigado... but I don't really know much.

    Well... hanging around here and just reading every tech or service manual around, just like you. I made some research when I wanted to service my Giant HV shock. I never got brave enough to do it, though. I was in fear of breaking the only working shock I had around... chicken me!!

    I've worked lots on forks, but not shocks other than replacing the seals on my Fox and tearing apart my defunct 5th Air, which I followed Manitou's instructions for the Swinger as they're almost the same thing.
    Check my Site

  7. #7
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    Why put perfume on a pig???!!!

    Why waste your time supeing up a pinto!
    Get a marz Roco tst-r and never look back.

  8. #8
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    thanks again warp...

    i think i had this needle to inflate footballs that fit my suspension pump, in case i let too much air out...

    thanks wormvine, but in first place i donīt have the money to do it, and if i had i would still think about this...i would have tried it already,i wouldnt be afraid of spend € fixing stuff.
    i was wondering when someone posted something like that.

    its a good opinion, but i was brought up trying to understand how things work and eventualy making them better...
    sometimes i wonder i should look up to better things, but isnīt that a consumist way of thought?

    my father is an engineer and he always taught me to think before desmantling things, or before cashing out and buying something new...if something can be fixed easily...why not?

    in that sense i have this "crap" fork- manitou stance blunt (look at the reviews at mtbr), that i converted with enduro fork seals and open bath lube (25 dolars), it became better than new! better than cashing out 500€+...
    People are selling them because they canīt see whatīs wrong and correct it...

    i did, so before i have the € for a new one, that stance will work! and improved also!

    of course it will never be as good as a top of the line fork, yet...

    and of course the metel r will never be as good as any rocco...

    but i will try to improve it anyway...

    thanks to the replys guys! iīll keep you posted!

    ps- warp do you know portuguese? obrigado pela ajuda!

  9. #9
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    looks like the end of the road...

    well, iīve been making phone calls to see if i can dig out more info on the shock before blowing it apart!

    i mailed manitou regarding this questions, but no response at all...

    iīve went or called a few shops i know and they say it will never be the same after opening it, the only chance is filling it with n2. with air it wonīt be the same...

    iīve mailed tim flooks at tftunedshox and he rapidly replyed. he said there were no shims on the shock, so no tuning chances (at least the easy way ...).

    this mecanic of one of the shops told me he could open it, change oil weight, air fill it, and it would be cheap... but iīm afraid of it getting even worse.

    another one told me i would need a progressive spring...costing 150 euro!!!

    A) Knowing there are very few chances of tuning the shock, iīm thinking of grindind one of the springs i have, making it more progressive... yet it could result on failing of the spring!! of couse this would be neatly made without over doing it...

    B) just ride it with the least preload and forget about it...

    C) thinking of selling it and buying something better...

  10. #10
    "El Whatever"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcolino
    well, iīve been making phone calls to see if i can dig out more info on the shock before blowing it apart!

    i mailed manitou regarding this questions, but no response at all...

    iīve went or called a few shops i know and they say it will never be the same after opening it, the only chance is filling it with n2. with air it wonīt be the same...

    iīve mailed tim flooks at tftunedshox and he rapidly replyed. he said there were no shims on the shock, so no tuning chances (at least the easy way ...).

    this mecanic of one of the shops told me he could open it, change oil weight, air fill it, and it would be cheap... but iīm afraid of it getting even worse.

    another one told me i would need a progressive spring...costing 150 euro!!!

    A) Knowing there are very few chances of tuning the shock, iīm thinking of grindind one of the springs i have, making it more progressive... yet it could result on failing of the spring!! of couse this would be neatly made without over doing it...

    B) just ride it with the least preload and forget about it...

    C) thinking of selling it and buying something better...
    Take option C) and keep the Metel as a back up...
    There's good comments around the Marzocchi Roco Air, which is pretty cheap too.
    Check my Site

  11. #11
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    warp have you read this?

    Manitou Metel RP modifcation anyone?

    in the meanwhile i tried the first idea...

    after removing the philips bolt, nothing happened.
    i tried unturn the hex very carefully and slowly, until there was a very snall hiss. i put everything back...
    also i noticed that when tightening the philips with the hex not fully tightened, the hex will tighten also...

    it was the smaller any air loss on fork or shock iīve heard.
    yet the shock appears to start moving faster, but almost not perceptible...

    today a friend of mine lent me his 3way spv valve and the base seems the exact same size...

  12. #12
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    ehehehe i did it again!!!

    yes, it does seem to work.

    i tried again undoing very slowly the hex nut, until it did a litlle hiss, very little one.

    yesterday it was almost not noticeable.

    but today it seems better.

    when i pick the rear and drop/push the wheel to the ground from a very small height, the shaft actually moves! yeha!

    yet i need to test drive it...

  13. #13
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    Conclusion, Finally!!!

    yesterday i went for a little night ridance (testing purpose).

    i whacked the hell out of the shock going repeatedly on stairs at full speed, and it behaved like it should!!!

    the rear wheel contoured all the stairs, ahhhh... it felt nice! at last!

    and it didnīt seem to bottom up more than before...

    as it now matches the fork, i consider it Tuned!

    i have pimped my ride, ahahaha!

    ps- for disclaimer reasons: i expect that IF you readers do the same, and it doesnīt work, please donīt say i told you to do it with a gun pointed to your head, ok?

    For me it worked, but if you proceed and try it, at least be very caution and unscrew the hex nut very slowly, rotating quarter turns. it just took 2 very little hisses. For you it could take only one hiss, or half, eheh. if you hear the hiss, just turn the hex fully the other way and also put the philips bolt to try the shock. i suggest you ride it in all conditions before taking more n2 again. you must be careful as you can overdoit.

    i tryed it for normal situations and it worked, yet i have to check it on some long dh tracks...

    think of the hex nut as the cap on a soda bottle. it has gas in it. if rotated slowly you can fell as the gas comes out and close the cap. if you over do it the gas will come out freely. than you must find a valve to fill it up. i suspect that a spv valve and small mods will do, but it will be better if you stick with nitrogen as it is inert gas and doesnt has moist...

    if anyone tries it with the valve, please tell us your experience.



    thanks everyone!!!

    you can check what i do every thursday night:

    http://www.pinkbike.com/photo/?op=li...ouserid=145929

    i only appear on one photo, as i am a photographer..

    pps- yesterday i was pleased when i arrived home, and to top it up, my brother was waiting for me, to change the oil on his marz jr.t.
    eheh! what a difference! the oil was so foamy and old...
    now he wants to do the same on his shock... (warp-have you checked your pmīs?)
    Last edited by Marcolino; 06-01-2007 at 09:16 AM.

  14. #14
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    I haven't been inside a Manitou Metel rear shock. But I'd expect to find some sort of shim stack arrangement on the inside. I have spent some time playing with FOX vanilla rear shocks.

    Those type of shocks have gas pressure to prevent the oil from cavitating (being stretched out to gas, then imploding back to liquid) under fast compression.
    If you lose the gas charge then the cavitation will mean on a fast compression there is no oil flow and no damping. Your shock will compress fast and then rebound faster with no control.

    Running with not enough gas pressure can also let the main shaft seal let air into the oil, making the shock sound slurpy.

    It's probably not the news you want to hear, but you should find a way to pump your shock back up to around 200psi. Once you've got a method to pump up the gas chamber, stripping the shock and filling it with lighter oil or changing shims is quite straightforward.
    www.dougal.co.nz Suspension setup & tuning.
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  15. #15
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    Thatīs what everyoneīs been telling me... that it would kill the shock, i know cavitation. yet no one has put it apart..

    yet manitou states that there is some kind of platform. i canīt really tell as i havent put it apart (yet).

    it used to feel like a platform shock.like an on/off switch.

    when i released a bit of the pressure, it started working for small bumps. For now it didnīt seem to become incontrolable or slushy. it may do so next ride, i hope not!

    iīm not saying thereīs not a point on the n2 theory.

    i was just fed up by the rear end not tracking the ground and went anyway...worst thing will be rebuilding it.

    iīll have to try it in some large dh track or for a long period of time to find out.

    if for example this is a kind of 3way without the air valve, by releasing the nitro i could have tuned it for my weight, right? in a less controled manner, but for now it worked...


    itīs time for a duration test.

    probably iīll end opening it and then iīll expose it, eheh.

    half the world is watching...

    i sent several mails to tuning shops, but no one except tim flooks, told they have opened it. he wrote succintly that it wasnt shim tunable, but didnīt said anything about platform.

    so what the hell is the shock made of?

    FFD piston???

    Lol, probably it is... but rebound works very well... if by the summer it is allright i say it was a good mod. if it turns out i ruined it by taking the n2 out, iīll show you guys the pics.

    oh, i think i didnīt took all the nitro out....

    maybe iīll open it anyway... for science sake, eheheh

    when iīll do, iīll let you know... iīll try to make a follow up on the tests iīll do...

    thanks guys!!

  16. #16
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    Open it up and show us the pics.

    Just make sure you release all the gas pressure first, otherwise you get a shower of oil and shock parts.
    www.dougal.co.nz Suspension setup & tuning.
    www.shockcraft.co.nz Bike Bearings, Seals & Custom Hardware
    SPV Devolve

  17. #17
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    x-posted also on spv devolve...pics of metel shims!!!

    Found this How to: Convert your lazy SPV 5th into a shimmed damper hottie


    http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=180769

    iīm just happy to finaly found someone that has put the metel shock apart!!! it has shims afterall...


    so hereīs the answer i was looking on this thread! metel tuning...

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcolino
    Found this How to: Convert your lazy SPV 5th into a shimmed damper hottie


    http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=180769
    That is a great read, thanks!

    P

  19. #19
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    Hereīs the pics if you didnīt see them on the other topic...


    http://noiteshardkore.pinkbike.com/a...v-air-preload/

    this way the shock can be tuned by shim arrangement and later it can easily be reinflated...

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcolino
    Hereīs the pics if you didnīt see them on the other topic...


    http://noiteshardkore.pinkbike.com/a...v-air-preload/

    this way the shock can be tuned by shim arrangement and later it can easily be reinflated...
    Great pictorial, Marcolino!! Awesome...

    Obrigado!
    Check my Site

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warp
    Great pictorial, Marcolino!! Awesome...

    Obrigado!

    Thanks! I finally returned! hehehe! Too much work lately!

    I hope the photos help everyone thinking about improving this shock!

    Itīs not that bad at all... and itīs actually tunable on the inside...

  22. #22
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    Well, I tried to undo the small hex. I did it very slowly and well, there was more of a "farting" sound rather than a "hiss." I proceeded to put it back, and then tried it again. This time, as I unscrewed it, the stupid hex would not screw back in clockwise and kept leaking Nitrogen. I managed to put it all back and now I have a slurping sound.

    I live in Canada also, so absolutely no service from Manitou. FML.

    I might just go to my LBS, borrow some soft jaws, and take the POS apart. Also, about a week ago, my rebound adjustment knob snapped off and it is impossible to replace without dissasembly.

    One regard though: If there is oil in the shock, and you replace it with oxygen and not nitrogen, wouldn't their be a chance that it will now turn into diesel under compression, and possibly explode under extreme load?

    P.S. I know this post is old as hell, but I really need to fix this and I do not want to buy another one.
    On the other hand, Manitou Swinger Coil 3-Way's are going for like $50.

  23. #23
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    Get a ball valve and hypodermic needle, siamese them together and use your shock pump to put 200psi back into it when you are done.
    You can't make diesel or diamonds with the pressure inside rear shocks. Sadly.
    www.dougal.co.nz Suspension setup & tuning.
    www.shockcraft.co.nz Bike Bearings, Seals & Custom Hardware
    SPV Devolve

  24. #24
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    Ok, I see that. So also should I then replace the screw with a shrader valve?

    I really thought that their is a possibility of diesel and then the whole thing blowing up. Like theres 200 psi in their! Gonna do some more research beore anything too drastic.

    Might buy a Manitou Swinger 3-Way coil on eBay for like $40 from Bikewagon.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meek Meek Meek View Post
    Ok, I see that. So also should I then replace the screw with a shrader valve?

    I really thought that their is a possibility of diesel and then the whole thing blowing up. Like theres 200 psi in their! Gonna do some more research beore anything too drastic.

    Might buy a Manitou Swinger 3-Way coil on eBay for like $40 from Bikewagon.
    It's hard to get a good seal between the schrader valve and the body. That's why the rubber plug with screw is good, you can get a very good seal, with such a small air volume it's very easy to drop a lot of pressure.

    Buy the swinger, then you can siamese the metel shock and the swinger while using the schrader valve that is already mounted to the swinger body.

    I have a 6 way swinger here in a length I can't use. I need to buy a 3 or 4 way coil in a 190mm length and graft the piggy back with hi/low speed compression adjusters onto it. With shims of course.
    www.dougal.co.nz Suspension setup & tuning.
    www.shockcraft.co.nz Bike Bearings, Seals & Custom Hardware
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