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  1. #1
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    acs 3 or avy cart

    this isnt meant to be a bashing session for either offering i just want to know if anyone has compared them back to back. Not using both on the same fork but as they are designed to be used, a stand alone addition to the fork to make it better.

    I had an avy cart on my 16' 36 and loved it, then got a 17' 36 and didnt feel i needed anything as that fork with the fit4 worked well for me.

    I now have an 18' lyric and i just cant get it right. i am using a shockwiz and the settings just seem odd, no spacers and like 70psi in the aggressive tune and i am about 215. in playful it tells me i am spot on. problem is the ride just isnt comfortable, and i dont like how it tracks.

    that said i want to mod it, either avy or push. to be honest i was sold on push until i started reading that they also seem to want me to mod my damper, so buy the spring and then since we know the damper is the issue send that in for 200 to revalve it? that seems wrong to me whereas the avy cart for me was drop it in and forget it. i just dont know if the ride from the acs is superior and of course i sure cant try them out!!!

    thanks for any help you guys can offer.

  2. #2
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    hmmm I like my avy cart in my rs boxxer fork. I have a woodie shock by him on there too.
    My yeti has the rp23 tuned by avy. I want a damper for the new pike I put on it a year ago. I have it feeling ok...but that avy cart is game changing. Supportive standing and hammering, blows off when it should, sucks brake bumps up. It just floats over everything it seems and all I did was pull it out of the box and put it on my bike. That goes for my tuned rp23 too.
    I have not had a chance to try anything from push. Honestly I wouldn't hesitate on them either though. I didn't know they were tuning/replacing rs stuff hence I haven't done business with them.
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenwood72 View Post
    this isnt meant to be a bashing session for either offering i just want to know if anyone has compared them back to back. Not using both on the same fork but as they are designed to be used, a stand alone addition to the fork to make it better.

    I had an avy cart on my 16' 36 and loved it, then got a 17' 36 and didnt feel i needed anything as that fork with the fit4 worked well for me.

    I now have an 18' lyric and i just cant get it right. i am using a shockwiz and the settings just seem odd, no spacers and like 70psi in the aggressive tune and i am about 215. in playful it tells me i am spot on. problem is the ride just isnt comfortable, and i dont like how it tracks.

    that said i want to mod it, either avy or push. to be honest i was sold on push until i started reading that they also seem to want me to mod my damper, so buy the spring and then since we know the damper is the issue send that in for 200 to revalve it? that seems wrong to me whereas the avy cart for me was drop it in and forget it. i just dont know if the ride from the acs is superior and of course i sure cant try them out!!!

    thanks for any help you guys can offer.
    Just to be clear, we designed our AC3 kit to be used with the stock FOX and Rock Shox dampers. The damper tuning is just fine tuning for those looking to squeeze out every ounce of performance. The ACS3 with the stock damper is where the significant upgrade in performance comes from. The vast majority of riders have purchase it as a stand-alone product.

    Darren

  4. #4
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    Good thread.

    Unlikely you'd to wrong with either.

    What I like about PUSH is their stuff works well, and they are super nice and accommodating when dealing with them. I've dealt with them a fair amount and they could not have been easier to deal with. Great people.

    The Avy stuff, which I've not yet tried, sounds really good, and importantly, once you drop their cart in maintenance becomes way easier. Seems like you were happy with Avy, so I'd go that route. As I'm sure you know, Craig is a pretty intense guy to speak to (which for me is a plus as I'm east coast to if you catch my drift), and its great to deal with someone so knowledgeable and passionate.


    I've got a rear shock coming back from PUSH as we speak, and just got off the phone with Craig at Avy today. If I don't fall apart over the winter I'm getting the Avy cart for my Boxxer. Dealing with the maintenance on the stock damper side is a costly hassle for me, and besides, even a slight performance upgrade would be welcomed.


    All that said, my bottom line would be this...

    Rear shock tune, PUSH

    Fork upgrade, Avy



    My bet both would offer top notch performance, but for the fork I like the ease of dealing with an open bath design, like Avy's.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by PUSHIND View Post
    Just to be clear, we designed our AC3 kit to be used with the stock FOX and Rock Shox dampers. The damper tuning is just fine tuning for those looking to squeeze out every ounce of performance. The ACS3 with the stock damper is where the significant upgrade in performance comes from. The vast majority of riders have purchase it as a stand-alone product.

    Darren
    thanks Darren, i know your product is awesome and i have purchased 2 11-6s so far and they are awesome.

    The problem as i understand it though is the Damper is the problem on the RS forks so though the coil is going to increase the performance in all honeslty doesnt the damper still hinder it some? that isnt your fault of course but the real fix seems to truly be a 2 step process.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miker J View Post
    Good thread.

    Unlikely you'd to wrong with either.

    What I like about PUSH is their stuff works well, and they are super nice and accommodating when dealing with them. I've dealt with them a fair amount and they could not have been easier to deal with. Great people.

    The Avy stuff, which I've not yet tried, sounds really good, and importantly, once you drop their cart in maintenance becomes way easier. Seems like you were happy with Avy, so I'd go that route. As I'm sure you know, Craig is a pretty intense guy to speak to (which for me is a plus as I'm east coast to if you catch my drift), and its great to deal with someone so knowledgeable and passionate.


    I've got a rear shock coming back from PUSH as we speak, and just got off the phone with Craig at Avy today. If I don't fall apart over the winter I'm getting the Avy cart for my Boxxer. Dealing with the maintenance on the stock damper side is a costly hassle for me, and besides, even a slight performance upgrade would be welcomed.


    All that said, my bottom line would be this...

    Rear shock tune, PUSH

    Fork upgrade, Avy



    My bet both would offer top notch performance, but for the fork I like the ease of dealing with an open bath design, like Avy's.
    thanks Mike, i am east coast too, actually born and rasied in connecticut so i do understand craig, he is east coast and passionate. when i first moved west i offended everyone, been on the west too long though and now i am nice

    anyhow thanks for the feedback and truth be told i simply hate evern having to "upgrade" my fork, sucks that i cant get it to feel right but alas i am not alone as if i was there would be no push or avy!!

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenwood72 View Post
    thanks Darren, i know your product is awesome and i have purchased 2 11-6s so far and they are awesome.

    The problem as i understand it though is the Damper is the problem on the RS forks so though the coil is going to increase the performance in all honeslty doesnt the damper still hinder it some? that isnt your fault of course but the real fix seems to truly be a 2 step process.
    I would disagree as the FIT and Charger dampers are quite good. Well....other than the first generation Charger damper in the 2014/2015 model forks!

    The damping forces being generated in a fork are significantly lower than what you would see in a rear shock. Therefore, the changes in the damper have less of an effect on the overall performance of the fork. With a rear shock if you make a 10% change to the rebound damping force you can change things by 100-120lbs in the damping curve. In a front fork, that same percentage change may only have a 10-12lb change in the damping force. So with that being said, things like friction and spring characteristic play a larger role in the overall fork performance.

    Darren

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenwood72 View Post
    thanks Mike, i am east coast too, actually born and rasied in connecticut so i do understand craig, he is east coast and passionate. when i first moved west i offended everyone, been on the west too long though and now i am nice

    HA !!! Truly, a laugh out loud!

    Oh brother, I'm too aware of being a bit too outspoken and construed as "not nice" when off my home turf.


    Yep, bummer to buy only then need to upgrade. Pretty sure from here on out I'm buying lower end dampers then sending them in for a custom tune. Next bike might need a Lyric or 36, but I'll go with a Yari plus a custom tune.

  9. #9
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    Advantage for changing oil and cartridge reliability/longevity goes to the Avy damper IME. I've had multiple charger forks, you have to bleed the carts every once and a while and the rebound seal eventually starts to let air in, it sometimes takes longer or shorter, but it's just not worth the hassle, not with how amazing the Avy damper makes the fork. I can run so much rebound damping it's just ridiculous, and the thing doesn't pack up. The way it "hugs" the terrain at speed on off-camber stuff is ridiculous, just doesn't seem possible at times to hook up like it does, but that's what the custom tuning can do for you. A big reason these forks blow through the travel is not just the linear nature of air-shocks mid-travel, they have fairly restrictive high speed circuits to keep fatties from blowing the shocks to hell and they try to use the low-speed adjusters to give you most of your "set up" for different weight riders. The tuned cartridge basically reverses this and gives you great low-speed compression support that transitions nicely to high-speed for the chunky stuff with end-stroke bottom-out protection via the bottom-out cone.

    I've had Avy carts before and that's why I got one for my Lyrik. I have a tuned coil in the rear and it feels very balanced like this. I know going to a coil in the front would be "even better" from a performance standpoint, but I think it's a bigger advantage not having to deal with the charger damper ever again.
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  10. #10
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    Have owned both. Get the ACS-3. No contest. Avy dampers are nice, although heavy, but do nothing to address the stiction issues inherent with air springs. As Iíve said in the other thread, ACS-3 with stock RC2 damper is significantly better than Avalanche damper with air spring, or coil.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nmxtrdr View Post
    Have owned both. Get the ACS-3. No contest. Avy dampers are nice, although heavy, but do nothing to address the stiction issues inherent with air springs. As Iíve said in the other thread, ACS-3 with stock RC2 damper is significantly better than Avalanche damper with air spring, or coil.
    thx, that other thread was getting a little off track so i missed that, appreciate the feedback. can you offer any more detail, why is it better?

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    ACS-3 has MUCH better small bump compliance than the Avy w/air spring, better mid-stroke support, and a user adjustable end stroke with the ABS. Avy Cart with coil spring got closer in performance to the ACS-3 w/stock damper, but did not equal it, and was much heavier. Avy Carts only have rebound and LSC dials, so youíre also losing control of your HSC when you go that route, whereas the Push coil system has almost endless tuning possibilities.

    ACS-3 is also less $$$

    Hope that helps.

  13. #13
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    ^This!

    I'll also add that most fork dampers are very good if you fall into the "sweet spot" weight range of say 150 to 200 lbs range. Above or below that range then maybe a custom tuned damper might be called for!
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by nmxtrdr View Post
    ACS-3 has MUCH better small bump compliance than the Avy w/air spring, better mid-stroke support, and a user adjustable end stroke with the ABS. Avy Cart with coil spring got closer in performance to the ACS-3 w/stock damper, but did not equal it, and was much heavier. Avy Carts only have rebound and LSC dials, so youíre also losing control of your HSC when you go that route, whereas the Push coil system has almost endless tuning possibilities.

    ACS-3 is also less $$$

    Hope that helps.
    I can't help but think there was something wrong with the fork or the tune if you're saying a coil fork with Avalanche cartridge wasn't as good as the ACS3 with stock damper.

    But for sure, anything with an air spring sucks.
    Last edited by Christopher Robin; 5 Days Ago at 06:36 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blcman View Post
    ^This!

    I'll also add that most fork dampers are very good if you fall into the "sweet spot" weight range of say 150 to 200 lbs range. Above or below that range then maybe a custom tuned damper might be called for!
    I think this is what I'm experiencing now. I'm 135 lbs and recently got a bike with a 160mm Pike RC and it is extremely harsh. I run zero spacers, 35 lbs air pressure (well under suggested pressure) and it's still really harsh and I can't get full travel. I've got to believe the damper is the cause of my problems. From what I've read, I don't think the ACS-3 would help me. I'm considering an Avy cartridge, Dirtlabs tune or attempting DIY tuning.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by aski View Post
    I think this is what I'm experiencing now. I'm 135 lbs and recently got a bike with a 160mm Pike RC and it is extremely harsh. I run zero spacers, 35 lbs air pressure (well under suggested pressure) and it's still really harsh and I can't get full travel. I've got to believe the damper is the cause of my problems. From what I've read, I don't think the ACS-3 would help me. I'm considering an Avy cartridge, Dirtlabs tune or attempting DIY tuning.
    This goes back to my post earlier. At your rider weight and air pressure settings the auto-regulating feature of the air spring is not able to function correctly and the effects of the seal friction in the air system have a larger impact. 15-20lbs of seal drag form the air system are a lot larger percentage of the overall equation when you're only running 35psi. Remove that seal drag from the equation and the performance you'll get from the fork will increase exponentially. I'm assuming at that air pressure that the fork most likely also struggles to extend to full length when you're riding due to the large effect from the negative air volume creating a lot of that harshness.

    A Charger damper set to full soft on compression effectively produces zero damping so if you're not getting good use of the travel in that setting than I wouldn't be looking at the damper as the fault.

    Darren

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    Quote Originally Posted by PUSHIND View Post
    This goes back to my post earlier. At your rider weight and air pressure settings the auto-regulating feature of the air spring is not able to function correctly and the effects of the seal friction in the air system have a larger impact. 15-20lbs of seal drag form the air system are a lot larger percentage of the overall equation when you're only running 35psi. Remove that seal drag from the equation and the performance you'll get from the fork will increase exponentially. I'm assuming at that air pressure that the fork most likely also struggles to extend to full length when you're riding due to the large effect from the negative air volume creating a lot of that harshness.

    A Charger damper set to full soft on compression effectively produces zero damping so if you're not getting good use of the travel in that setting than I wouldn't be looking at the damper as the fault.

    Darren
    Darren,

    Can you expand on this a little bit. I have a 2017 Pike RC, I weigh 190lbs and ride aggressively. I find that the pike rc damping hsc damping is pretty good but it's nearly impossible to add any LSC without getting harshness for small bumps. I also feel like there is a substantial amount of cross talk and that the LSC adjustment causes HSC spiking as well.

    Ultimately, this means I end up running either zero or 1 click of compression damping and slightly more air spring pressure. Anything other then that window and I struggle. Maybe it's just a lack of understanding on my part, but I don't seem to be the only one that struggles with the pike damper (especially the RC) with regards to compression damping.

    It seems like you either get, none of it, or all of it and very little in between.

    Could you expand on what you're doing to the pike kits with regards to compression damping to match up with the ACS? Are you taking away the compression stack pre-load and thus, removing the lockout'ish threshold and providing a usable range of LSC adjustment through the adjusters?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher Robin View Post
    I can't help but think there was something wrong with the fork or the tune if you're saying a coil fork with Avalanche cartridge wasn't as good as the ACS3 with stock damper.
    Have you ridden both the ACS-3 w/stock RC2 damper and Avy damper with coil? I have, and the ACS-3 w/stock damper is definitely better.

    Did I get a bad tune from Craig? Maybe. But there was nothing mechanically or structurally wrong with the fork.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PUSHIND View Post
    This goes back to my post earlier. At your rider weight and air pressure settings the auto-regulating feature of the air spring is not able to function correctly and the effects of the seal friction in the air system have a larger impact. 15-20lbs of seal drag form the air system are a lot larger percentage of the overall equation when you're only running 35psi. Remove that seal drag from the equation and the performance you'll get from the fork will increase exponentially. I'm assuming at that air pressure that the fork most likely also struggles to extend to full length when you're riding due to the large effect from the negative air volume creating a lot of that harshness.

    A Charger damper set to full soft on compression effectively produces zero damping so if you're not getting good use of the travel in that setting than I wouldn't be looking at the damper as the fault.

    Darren
    Thanks for taking the time to respond. I placed blame on the damper as others folks on the forum believed that Rockshox uses a very firm tune on the RC to compensate for the lack of a lockout. I did not find this too difficult to believe as I have a RCT3 on another bike that feels great (very different from the RC) and the fact that Rockshox has a section in their service manual detailing how to alter the rebound shim stack for lighter riders (although no discussion on the compression stack). You guys tuned an old RP23 for me years ago that made me a believer in custom tuning, so I was already inclined to believe revalving was the ultimate fix for my problems with the RC. I'll read up on the ACS-3 some more to better understand it. Thanks again.

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    If it were my bike, I'd find a used base model Fox 36mm fork with Kashima and send it to Craig for the Avy Cartridge but also VERY IMPORTANTLY I'd add the MRP Fulfil that gives you separate control over the negative pressure. I added the Fulfil after the Avy cartridge (at Craig's suggestion) and it just makes the fork operate so smooth right off the top. No feeling of stiction at all. No weight gain either.

    I weigh 180#s and to get 20% sag I only run 50psi in my positive chamber after the Fulfil as it alters the size of your air chamber significantly. I use 55 psi in the negative chamber.

    Then I'd sell your current forks to help pay for it.

    Good luck.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by nmxtrdr View Post
    Have you ridden both the ACS-3 w/stock RC2 damper and Avy damper with coil? I have, and the ACS-3 w/stock damper is definitely better.

    Did I get a bad tune from Craig? Maybe. But there was nothing mechanically or structurally wrong with the fork.
    Well, one thing to consider is there IS a problem with some fox 36 forks and the air piston, making them very harsh, well documented in Ridemonkey threads and a few here, so adding an Avy cart might help a bit, but wonít fix that underlying issue and would probably feel pretty terrible compared to a stock damper 36 and ACS coil.
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  22. #22
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    Why not both?

    Money I guess. We all have a budget to work to.

    The 2018 charger dampers are a lot better than the 14-17 versions. They've removed the majority of the harshness which came from significant oil flow issues at higher shaft speeds. They can still be improved but they're about twice as good out of the box as the earlier ones.

    For 14-17 Charger I'd upgrade the damper first and the spring second. For the 18 I'd upgrade the spring first and damper second.

    The Chargers use very big LSC ports. As Darren said it brings compression damping (at low shaft speeds) down to about zero. Whether you want that or not. But start increasing LSC to gain chassis control and that's when you see how good the base tune is or is not for you and your riding.
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by PUSHIND View Post
    This goes back to my post earlier. At your rider weight and air pressure settings the auto-regulating feature of the air spring is not able to function correctly and the effects of the seal friction in the air system have a larger impact. 15-20lbs of seal drag form the air system are a lot larger percentage of the overall equation when you're only running 35psi. Remove that seal drag from the equation and the performance you'll get from the fork will increase exponentially. I'm assuming at that air pressure that the fork most likely also struggles to extend to full length when you're riding due to the large effect from the negative air volume creating a lot of that harshness.

    A Charger damper set to full soft on compression effectively produces zero damping so if you're not getting good use of the travel in that setting than I wouldn't be looking at the damper as the fault.

    Darren

    Good points.

    Recently I've heard the same thing about air seal drag compromising the fork's performance. It's something I had originally thought would have not made that much difference.


    This season I'm going back to a coil spring on my Boxxer. The air spring did of course provide more ramp up at the end stroke but I'm still not completely happy with the feel.

    Something infrequently mentioned is the maintenance and durability aspect of a fork's build. The air spring on my Boxxer has given my grief on two separate occasions, both right before big trips with my bike. Servicing the air side is a bit more hassle as well.

    Charge dampers, in my experience, and like Jayem has alluded to, are less than perfectly reliable. Rebuilding them appears to be a time consuming job. I've yet to try to bleed one myself.

    The dampers I own are ridden a lot and in harsh condition, and I've had many failures in recent years. I've spent a lot of money, energy, and down time because of this issues. I'm not hearing this from many other riders, so many to many its not a big deal, but it is to me.


    So, as I move forward, ease of service and durability are right up there with performance. That is what has me looking real hard at Avalanche and their open bath setup.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Well, one thing to consider is there IS a problem with some fox 36 forks and the air piston, making them very harsh, well documented in Ridemonkey threads and a few here, so adding an Avy cart might help a bit, but wonít fix that underlying issue and would probably feel pretty terrible compared to a stock damper 36 and ACS coil.
    The Avy damper was in a coil sprung Fox 36.

    The latest versions of the RC2 damper are really good. The Avy damper has nothing to offer over the stock RC2 damper when paired with the ACS-3, except added weight and $$$.

    If a rider has an aversion to dialing in their own suspension, or needs the simplicity and low maintenance of open bath, yeah, Avy cart makes sense for them.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by nmxtrdr View Post
    The Avy damper was in a coil sprung Fox 36.

    The latest versions of the RC2 damper are really good. The Avy damper has nothing to offer over the stock RC2 damper when paired with the ACS-3, except added weight and $$$.
    Sure it does, being tuned to your weight and style. Although you can preload the shim stacks in the fox, that doesn't offer the same tuning options as changing the shim stack. Of course, if you know what you are doing and have the tools and patience, you can do the same with the fox, but you still have a closed damper that requires bleeds every so often. If I was running a coil, yes, my first priority would not be to upgrade the damper, because the RC2 damper IS a very good damper, agreed, but on the same theme, you'll pry my avy lyrik from my cold dead hands, it's a game-changer and makes the suspension on the bike feel far more capable than the stock OEM stuff, to the point where you feel like you are riding a DH rig instead of trail/enduro.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Sure it does, being tuned to your weight and style. Although you can preload the shim stacks in the fox, that doesn't offer the same tuning options as changing the shim stack. Of course, if you know what you are doing and have the tools and patience, you can do the same with the fox, but you still have a closed damper that requires bleeds every so often. If I was running a coil, yes, my first priority would not be to upgrade the damper, because the RC2 damper IS a very good damper, agreed, but on the same theme, you'll pry my avy lyrik from my cold dead hands, it's a game-changer and makes the suspension on the bike feel far more capable than the stock OEM stuff, to the point where you feel like you are riding a DH rig instead of trail/enduro.
    Have you ridden the ACS-3 kit with a stock damper?

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by nmxtrdr View Post
    Have you ridden the ACS-3 kit with a stock damper?
    Nope, not many have at this point as you know, I have ridden the older RC2s, older coil sprung stuff, owned coil sprung avy dampers. Point stands though, preloading shims is not the same as adjusting the stack for your weight and style. It's useful for making fine-tuning changes, but it's not the same thing. Also, not relying on air-seals to hold in pressure for bottom-out events with the hydraulic bottom out protection.
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    This thread is asking to compare a damper system to a coil system and which to upgrade to. All of this This vs That is subjective at the very least and you'll find fans on both sides of the fence.

    To the OP: If you get the cartridge, there's no point later getting the ACS3 coil kit obviously. Like Darren said, his spring system is meant to run with the stock damper only. Worse case is if you go Avalanche, find an old Fox Vanilla spring and throw it in the spring side. Find a way to disable the air spring. If you get the ACS3, then send your damper to Darren to tune and move on in that direction.

    FWIW, my 2010 Fox 36 chassis vs my 2017 Fox 36 chassis were equally stiff and smooth. My 2010 F36 was coil and had an Avy cartridge with ABS and midvalves. Comparing that fork to my current F36 with ACS3 and tuned stock damper, the win goes to my older Avy'd F36. At higher speeds it was smoother and just felt like it's 'opened' up. At slower speeds they're more or less equal from what I remember. I pretty much need to have the compression valving softened a bit on my Push'd RC2 damper so they may be closer than I think. But again, I'm comparing an Avy'd coil fork to a fully Push'd coil fork. I can't comment on an "Avy'd air fork" to a "Push'd coil fork".

    As for not having high speed adjuster on the Avy cartridge, if the damper is tuned properly (highspeed valving inside), I don't feel you need it . But that's just me. My experience with the Avy dampers and Push'd RC2 has been if they're setup properly, you don't need to move the adjusters more than a click in either direction.

    Adding weight with the Avy cartridge??? Yeah a little bit. But it's not like you're strapping a boat anchor to your handle bars. In the last several years people have been caught up with this suspension weight saving scam. Yeah it's nice having a light bike and my trail bike is almost ALL carbon, BUT my suspension is coil and are the heavier components on the bike; the bike rides up and down better than it ever has before.

    At the end of day, Fox should just sell their forks without any guts because clearly they always need work.
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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by nmxtrdr View Post
    Have you ridden the ACS-3 kit with a stock damper?
    I'm going to say I don't get to try theirs out it seems, I'm above Push's stated weight limit of 215lbs for a 140mm fork. I'm about 225 good day 230 bad day, no gear on. Plus they haven't had anything for RS in a long time so I haven't even looked at them.....
    My new Nimble 9 is getting a 140mm shock. Cant use one there apparently.
    The pike on my yeti is 150mm, it is close but at this point I know what I am getting on an avy damper so I would go that route. Plus I like easy maintenance so it makes it a no brainer for me.
    I'm outside the normals for stock dampers and I think they all suck at this point after getting something tuned for me. I just put it on and rode, I didn't touch anything and it was perfect. Oh and no weight limit since it is tuned to your weight.
    I'd like to try Push out but looks like that will have to "weight" a while. I'm working on dropping to 200 so maybe someday.
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  30. #30
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    I placed blame on the damper as others folks on the forum believed that Rockshox uses a very firm tune on the RC to compensate for the lack of a lockout.
    It's often a speculation that when you see more, or thicker shims that it "has to be stiffer", which isn't always the case. See below.

    They've removed the majority of the harshness which came from significant oil flow issues at higher shaft speeds.
    At what velocities are you referring to? The data below is tested at 1m/sec.

    Recently I've heard the same thing about air seal drag compromising the fork's performance. It's something I had originally thought would have not made that much difference.
    Absolutely. With the compression damping set to the open position, the friction in the air fork is producing more "damping" than the forks actual damper.


    Below I've attached an actual dyno sample of two Charger dampers, both set to the full soft position. The upper sloping line is the compression damping force, the lower sloping line is the rebound damping force. The BLUE Line is a 2017 RCT3 Charger damper, the BROWN Line is a 2017 RC Charger damper. As you can see, in the open position both cartridges produce less than 8 pounds of damping force at 1m/sec of suspension velocity(yes, that's quite fast). So in this position, the damper is not doing anything to restrict the fork from using it's travel. So if you're not getting full travel, or the fork feels "harsh", it's not coming from too much compression damping. You can see from the data that there is no "spike" happening here in the Charger damper in the soft position.

    acs 3 or avy cart-pike_rc-rct3.jpg

    Darren

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by PUSHIND View Post
    It's often a speculation that when you see more, or thicker shims that it "has to be stiffer", which isn't always the case. See below.

    At what velocities are you referring to? The data below is tested at 1m/sec.

    Absolutely. With the compression damping set to the open position, the friction in the air fork is producing more "damping" than the forks actual damper.


    Below I've attached an actual dyno sample of two Charger dampers, both set to the full soft position. The upper sloping line is the compression damping force, the lower sloping line is the rebound damping force. The BLUE Line is a 2017 RCT3 Charger damper, the BROWN Line is a 2017 RC Charger damper. As you can see, in the open position both cartridges produce less than 8 pounds of damping force at 1m/sec of suspension velocity(yes, that's quite fast). So in this position, the damper is not doing anything to restrict the fork from using it's travel. So if you're not getting full travel, or the fork feels "harsh", it's not coming from too much compression damping. You can see from the data that there is no "spike" happening here in the Charger damper in the soft position.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Darren
    And this is why a dyno is such an important tool. It lets you skip guessing and focus in on where the actual shortcomings are.


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  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cary View Post
    And this is why a dyno is such an important tool. It lets you skip guessing and focus in on where the actual shortcomings are.


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    Please, Push is just trying to confuse us all with FACTS and DATA POINTS! Sheeez!
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  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by PUSHIND View Post
    Below I've attached an actual dyno sample of two Charger dampers...
    Question regarding the dyno plot:
    1. Would the 2018 version of the RC/RCT3 charger dampers have a similar plot?
    2. What is the X-axis? The percent travel of the fork I assume?

    Trying to grasp why a 2014 Pike RCT3 feels so good (to me) and a 2018 Pike RC feels like poop and how best to correct it?

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by aski View Post
    Question regarding the dyno plot:
    1. Would the 2018 version of the RC/RCT3 charger dampers have a similar plot?
    2. What is the X-axis? The percent travel of the fork I assume?

    Trying to grasp why a 2014 Pike RCT3 feels so good (to me) and a 2018 Pike RC feels like poop and how best to correct it?
    Keep in mind this dyno plot is for one speed, 1m/s (a moderate high speed event). To really understand what is happening you need plots from 0m/s to 3m/s at different displacements and across the damper settings. Without that you cannot really compare what is happening between different products. For this fork it is further complicated as it appears the air spring is a major component of compression dampening (whether due to seals, adiabatic compression, or a combination of both we donít know without dyno information on the air spring).

    The short is that it takes a lot of time and equipment to develop the data to establish what exactly is occurring. It then requires someone with the knowledge to interpret all the data. That is all before you get into engineering a solution and going through the process again.


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  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by aski View Post

    Trying to grasp why a 2014 Pike RCT3 feels so good (to me) and a 2018 Pike RC feels like poop and how best to correct it?
    I don't know if they fixed this in 2018, but on all of the previous charger dampers, RS was making the RC version with super-heavy shim-stacks to give them the pseudo-lockout at the far end of the compression range. Big difference in the shim stack from the RC to RCT3, lots of threads and information on this you can look up. Sad, because it basically shows RS was trying to sell stuff based on parking lot tests, not data and real performance.
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  36. #36
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    Question regarding the dyno plot:
    1. Would the 2018 version of the RC/RCT3 charger dampers have a similar plot?
    2. What is the X-axis? The percent travel of the fork I assume?

    Trying to grasp why a 2014 Pike RCT3 feels so good (to me) and a 2018 Pike RC feels like poop and how best to correct it?
    1. Yes, in the open position. 2. The X-Axis is velocity, the Y is force in lbs. Is your other fork similar travel? The reason I ask is longer travel forks inherently have a more compliant feel. It also comes down to build quality, lubes, etc.

    Keep in mind this dyno plot is for one speed, 1m/s (a moderate high speed event). To really understand what is happening you need plots from 0m/s to 3m/s at different displacements and across the damper settings. Without that you cannot really compare what is happening between different products. For this fork it is further complicated as it appears the air spring is a major component of compression dampening (whether due to seals, adiabatic compression, or a combination of both we donít know without dyno information on the air spring).

    The short is that it takes a lot of time and equipment to develop the data to establish what exactly is occurring. It then requires someone with the knowledge to interpret all the data. That is all before you get into engineering a solution and going through the process again.
    Actually the plot that you're looking at shows 0-1m/sec not just a single velocity. The X-Axis of the graph is velocity. Also, what is the significance of the 3m/sec that you mentioned? I've attached the force characteristic showing 0-3m/sec. As you can see the force only increases to 20lbs at that velocity.

    acs 3 or avy cart-3ms.jpg

    I don't know if they fixed this in 2018, but on all of the previous charger dampers, RS was making the RC version with super-heavy shim-stacks to give them the pseudo-lockout at the far end of the compression range. Big difference in the shim stack from the RC to RCT3, lots of threads and information on this you can look up. Sad, because it basically shows RS was trying to sell stuff based on parking lot tests, not data and real performance.
    As I mentioned before, you can see from the dyno data that the the larger bleed in the RC prevents those shims from having any effect when the compression settings are opened up using the external adjuster.

    Darren

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by PUSHIND View Post
    Is your other fork similar travel? The reason I ask is longer travel forks inherently have a more compliant feel. It also comes down to build quality, lubes, etc.
    Ironically, just the opposite. The 2014 RCT3, the one that feels good, is a 140mm (using 0 volume spacers, 45 psi and 6 clicks of compression). The 2018 RC is a 160mm (0 spacers, 40 psi and compression wide open). Maybe it is something as simple as lubing that is causing me fits. Even though it's not due, perhaps I just need to do a lower leg service to ensure it's lubed properly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    I don't know if they fixed this in 2018, but on all of the previous charger dampers, RS was making the RC version with super-heavy shim-stacks to give them the pseudo-lockout at the far end of the compression range. Big difference in the shim stack from the RC to RCT3, lots of threads and information on this you can look up. Sad, because it basically shows RS was trying to sell stuff based on parking lot tests, not data and real performance.
    Yeah, I've read and participated in many of those threads and that's what led me to believe a custom tune of the shim stack or Avy cartridge was my only chance to get this fork to function properly. But with the dyno data Darren shared, it's got me re-thinking that. Don't mind spending worthwhile money but I want to make sure I'm actually solving the problem and not just chasing my tail.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by PUSHIND View Post
    1. Yes, in the open position. 2. The X-Axis is velocity, the Y is force in lbs. Is your other fork similar travel? The reason I ask is longer travel forks inherently have a more compliant feel. It also comes down to build quality, lubes, etc.

    Actually the plot that you're looking at shows 0-1m/sec not just a single velocity. The X-Axis of the graph is velocity. Also, what is the significance of the 3m/sec that you mentioned? I've attached the force characteristic showing 0-3m/sec. As you can see the force only increases to 20lbs at that velocity.

    Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	1171606

    As I mentioned before, you can see from the dyno data that the the larger bleed in the RC prevents those shims from having any effect when the compression settings are opened up using the external adjuster.

    Darren
    Didnít catch the plot was multispeed. The 3 m/s is what I have read as the max speed you are likely to ever see on a fork compression event. Of course I donít have data acquisition to back up that number.


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