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  1. #1
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    XTR Di2 - Is this for real?

    Please discuss as the they look legit .

    XTR Di2 - Is this for real?-vf9pxx.jpgXTR Di2 - Is this for real?-6zn81j.jpgXTR Di2 - Is this for real?-2vvj7kl.jpgName:  2bwrcg.jpg
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  2. #2
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    That is real. And going to be real awesome and expensive. I hope every part on that rear mech is replaceable.

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  3. #3
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    it's real but it is dumb. ther is no reason to go 11spd other than range. since 11-40 is not enough, that means the only other reason to go 11spd is to force a new rear hub standard. fail.

  4. #4
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    The new hubs are already 11spd. It is just the cassette body, not the hub. My Reynolds wheels are already there. 11/40 would be enough for me. I am not looking to go there any time soon but would love to jump when XT goes 11. 34t 11/40 would be ideal for me.

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    I'm sure it will be plenty of range for majority of the people who use it for what it was intended..Racing. If it's not enough range you have the option of a double or triple.
    It's not exactly a new standard, the cassette is a 9000 series component, which seems to imply it will use the same freehub dimensions as the new road free hubs. Shouldn't be hard at all for companies to adapt their road freehubs for their mountain bike hubs, some might not even need any adapting. DT Swiss should work fine as is.

  6. #6
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    for example novatec hubs cannot be converted from 10 to 11 spd just by changing the freehub body. it's a matter of flange spacing. if you've got a poor drive side flange design like DT Swiss does, the conversion might be easier.

  7. #7
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    Dt Swiss has poor drive side flange design?

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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by syl3 View Post
    it's real but it is dumb. ther is no reason to go 11spd other than range. since 11-40 is not enough, that means the only other reason to go 11spd is to force a new rear hub standard. fail.
    The most important item is Di2: it will be expensive at first, but electronic shifting is the future. But what do you mean "it is not enough"? A Dual with a 1140 cassette will have a huge range. If you are referring to single chainring the difference between a 1140 cassette and a 1042 is less than 3/4 of a gear, and neither is "enough" if you want to have both low end and good overdrive.

    Compare the gear ratios

    1140 x 26 + 40 => 3.63 to 0.65 (Dual Shimano 2015)

    1140 x 30 => 2.73 to .75 (Single XTR 2015?)
    1142 x 30 => 2.73 to .71 (Single aftermarket)
    1042 x 28 => 2.80 to .67 (Single SRAM)

    942 x 30 => 3.3 to .71 (Single Leonardi)

    The only cassette that sort of get close to dual is the Leonardi, otherwise 1042 to 1140 makes very little difference
    Last edited by Davide; 02-17-2014 at 08:22 AM.

  9. #9
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    i am not considering 2x11 at all, there is no advantage compared to 2x10. the only reason to go 1x11 for me is to get rid of front shifts (where di2 matters most, so as a result i don't care about di2). 11-40 is just not enough, even sram's 10-42 falls rather short, and the BCD designed for swapping chainrings easily addresses that.

    when shimano builds an SLX/XT level 10speed 11-40 cassette i'll be the first to buy it. for a 2x10 it would be great. but i will not be suckered into yet another meaningless upgrade. i was happy with my 2x9 5 years ago and there has been virtually no progress from them since.

  10. #10
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    So far, no mention of the cost of the Di2 XTR rear derailleur!

    Look at the cost for the road version with an MSRP of $900. I would expect the XTR to be at least as much as that one. This is a critical component that is very exposed and at least for me, has been hit by something or has hit something on every one of my bikes for the the past 20+ years of riding.

    Even on my "full" XTR builds, I have almost always gone with an XT or lesser rear derailleur for this very reason.

  11. #11
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    The chainrings seem to have a 'normal' tooth profile, too. I wonder if this means you'll still need a chain guide on a 1x setup?

    I'm a bit disappointed. Compared to XX1, it's less range and may require a chain guide. It still forces a different freehub body and a potential redish of the wheel, and if pricing is inline with Shimano road electronic stuff, it's going to make SRAM look like a freaking bargain. I trust shimano engineering more than I do SRAM's - but I was hoping for something more directly competitive.

  12. #12
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    Your forgeting road hubs for the most part are not disc ready

  13. #13
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    If it's the same price as dura ace I think it will fail. Maybe some chance at ultegra di2 pricing.

    Shimano have to be careful here, how much the system integrates from one to the other will effect retail pricing. In order to protect their dominance in the road market ( and their profitability), I suspect you will see retail pricing similar to road and therefore way above xx1. This will give xtr di2 the premium spot in the market - THEN they will oem to match XX1 so the top bike from a manufacturer will have xx1 or xtr for same price, but to you the consumer, there is $1000 better value in the xtr equipped bike.

    Gee, I should work for shimano.....

  14. #14
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    No matter how you slice it... or market it, $900 or even half of that (which it won't be unless it totally flops and can be had on closeout) is way too friggen much to drop on a rear derailleur. When riding gets rough, they get hurt, before any other drivetrain component on the bike.

    And as for costing less than the Dura-Ace rear derailleur... maybe... a little. It is more complex since it has a clutch in the mech as well. The DA RD-9000 has a MSRP of $280 and the XTR RD-M986 has an MSRP of $270. So about 4% less as a model would put the Di2 XTR RD at around $868. I really don't expect them to try and force this on the market by pricing too much more aggressively than that. But if it is 20% less at $720 or 40% less at $540 it is still too much for mass adoption. They are in a serious uphill battle on this one.

    Maybe they will offer 5yrs of no fault crash replacement with the MSRP, that might get them some more holdouts.

  15. #15
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    ^^^ It may take something like that crash replacement deal, or like some carbon wheels companies, where you can buy an add-on insurance in case you biff a wheel...for a small fee, of course. But yes, that might help the early adopters buy-in.

  16. #16
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    $868...I would be so stressed having that on my bike.

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  17. #17
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    i dunno...exciting to see this...it IS expensive but xtr was always supposed to be ne plus ultra...in someways its cool to see a company willing to produce a derailleur that could be priced in that bracket...there *will* be a market...and it *will* trickle down...no, i wouldnt put a $900 mech on my bike, but i guess i would if i could and i probably will use something that is born of this...i think shimano probably need to be lauded for bringing it...

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by oaklandish View Post
    So far, no mention of the cost of the Di2 XTR rear derailleur!

    Look at the cost for the road version with an MSRP of $900. I would expect the XTR to be at least as much as that one. This is a critical component that is very exposed and at least for me, has been hit by something or has hit something on every one of my bikes for the the past 20+ years of riding.

    Even on my "full" XTR builds, I have almost always gone with an XT or lesser rear derailleur for this very reason.

    The easy solutions are to wait for XT level Di2 or to never use it.

    Problem solved!
    God hates figs. Luke 13:6-9

  19. #19
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    Are there one or two buttons on those shifters?

    I wonder if it shifts sequentially, even with the 2x?
    God hates figs. Luke 13:6-9

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by juan_speeder View Post
    The easy solutions are to wait for XT level Di2 or to never use it.

    Problem solved!
    I completely agree... wait for XT or don't buy it. Great advice and I'm sure many will follow it, resulting in very few sales.

    Shimano really missed the point of why XX1 was selling and spent all their R&D money on this instead. Eventually electronic may take over the mountain bike world (I think not; as 5 years into the road world hasn't gained much traction) but until that day they have left us with a pretty lame revamp of their drivetrain. I hope as more details come out, the real deal will be better than what we are seeing.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by oaklandish View Post
    I completely agree... wait for XT or don't buy it. Great advice and I'm sure many will follow it, resulting in very few sales.

    Shimano really missed the point of why XX1 was selling and spent all their R&D money on this instead. Eventually electronic may take over the mountain bike world (I think not; as 5 years into the road world hasn't gained much traction) but until that day they have left us with a pretty lame revamp of their drivetrain. I hope as more details come out, the real deal will be better than what we see.
    I'm saving my nickles for an Ultegra Di2 roadie, but a single gear gets me through the mountains well enough, off road.

    I don't think this is a mistake for Shimano, at all. Having spent some time on a Di2 road bike, I can say for certain that the shifting is far better than a cable system could ever provide. Also, the percentage of electronic shifting bikes at my local shops has been steadily increasing over the past couple of seasons, so I don't know about "not gaining any traction".
    God hates figs. Luke 13:6-9

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by juan_speeder View Post
    I'm saving my nickles for an Ultegra Di2 roadie, but a single gear gets me through the mountains well enough, off road.

    I don't think this is a mistake for Shimano, at all. Having spent some time on a Di2 road bike, I can say for certain that the shifting is far better than a cable system could ever provide. Also, the percentage of electronic shifting bikes at my local shops has been steadily increasing over the past couple of seasons, so I don't know about "not gaining any traction".
    I actually said "much traction".

    I think Shimano are out on a limb on this one. Having said that, I would love to try electronic on my road bike, but I personally won't spend any more than mechanical for it. And especially not more for it on a mountain bike.

    I was going to mention your avitar and the irony of your interest in an electronic system for your single speed drivetrain...

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by oaklandish View Post
    Shimano really missed the point of why XX1 was selling and spent all their R&D money on this instead. Eventually electronic may take over the mountain bike world (I think not; as 5 years into the road world hasn't gained much traction) but until that day they have left us with a pretty lame revamp of their drivetrain. I hope as more details come out, the real deal will be better than what we are seeing.
    This has been in the works way longer than XX1 has been on the market.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by customfab View Post
    This has been in the works way longer than XX1 has been on the market.
    I agree with this as well, but the remainder of the drivetrain changes i.e. cassette sizes and chainring sizes, is a direct result of XX1. The Di2 has been in development for awhile and my guess is that is why the cogset stops at 40t. It's like they already had the Di2 XTR rear der finished and said what the hell SRAM? Now we have to go bigger as well, but our derailleur design wont fit the 42t so lets give them a 40t.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by oaklandish View Post
    I agree with this as well, but the remainder of the drivetrain changes i.e. cassette sizes and chainring sizes, is a direct result of XX1. The Di2 has been in development for awhile and my guess is that is why the cogset stops at 40t. It's like they already had the Di2 XTR rear der finished and said what the hell SRAM? Now we have to go bigger as well, but our derailleur design wont fit the 42t so lets give them a 40t.
    The "R" in XTR stands for racing. With that in mind the target audience doesn't need a 42. It wouldn't be that hard to reconfigure the cage plates to work with a 42 or larger if they wanted it to. Shimano also makes cassettes in several sizes at their top level, so it wouldn't surprise me at all to see cassettes with low cogs of 34/36/40/42. Current 98X is offered in two sizes and they aren't going to offer any fewer choices than that for the new stuff. Dura Ace 9000 has 5 different cassette options fwiw.

  26. #26
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    I know what the "R" stands for. I remember getting it on my Kona Hei Hei titanium hardtail in 1993 when XTR first came out. And generally speaking, current XTR = next years' XT and so on. It is not only about this XTR it is about the direction they move over the next few years with the subsequent line-ups.

    I also kinda suspect you might have better insight on this than us pleebz and I am sure they will offer at least 2 cassettes. So, I am basically criticizing the information that we have available so far, and the cassette range as currently documented on this forum maxes out at 40t. I'd be happy to be wrong on this!

    As for the electronic, from my point of view: still too expensive, still too vulnerable for mountain bikes.

  27. #27
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    I've still got my Ti Kona Hei Hei in the garage.

    Honestly I've never seen a broken Di2 RD that was crash or impact related. Roadies definitely hit the deck hard enough to do it as well. I spend a good chunk of my summers supporting road races so I feel I've got a pretty good sample size. The other thing that tends to save them is the clutch that's built into the rack and pinion. It will break away when it takes a blow saving the expensive RD. I'm sure some version of that tech will make it to the off road groups.

    The good thing is that Shimano isn't giving up on mechanical drivetrains. When 7900 came out it wasn't their best effort. But Di2 was great, seems they pored all the R&D into that. But when they brought 9000 and 9070 to market it was kind of surprising. The mechanical version was twice as good as the outgoing 7900 but the 9070 was basically refinements, nothing earth shatteringly improved. Although you could argue that there wasn't much to improve.

    My gut tells me Shimano will keep making a top shelf group for at least another decade, perhaps longer.

  28. #28
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    I just sold that frame for $900 cash. Awesome bike and apparently, when in good condition, worth almost as much as I paid for it... over 20 years later!

    I have hit the deck on my road bike more than I'd like to remember, it almost always involved the rear wheel sliding out. The bars, levers, pedals and rear derailleur take the brunt of the bike damage. And this is usually limited to cosmetic. Not saying OTB and group crashes can't have serious consequences, just that for me, they are not as common as on the trail.

    On the mountain bike: over the bars and bike crashing hard on its side onto rocks, down ravines and such, or sticks/branches in the derailleur path seem to be the most common method for my rear derailleur destruction. I might be doing it wrong though.

    As for Shimano's capacity to continue to make awesome quality gear, I fully agree. They just seem to perpetually make some very obtuse design/engineering choices concerning compatibility and standards and market trends.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by davide View Post
    the most important item is di2: It will be expensive at first, but electronic internal shifting is the future.
    fify

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by rideit View Post
    fify
    Meh.

    Internals, belts, shafts, etc all loose a significant amount power due to frictional loses.

    I think it'll be a long time before roller chain/derailleur systems are obsolete for top end gear.
    God hates figs. Luke 13:6-9

  31. #31
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    If they had a 1x11 with built in battery in the rear derailleur and a wireless shift lever than they would have my interest ... till then Meh
    I am slow therefore I am

  32. #32
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    XTR Di2 - Is this for real?

    Guys don't knock DI2 until you ride it. In my road bike it is phenomenal. I can understand the concerns though and the main problem is price. I have never messed up a road derailleur but have broken many MTB derailleurs. Having a XT di2 MTB set in couple years would be awesome.


    Erik

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    Well product launch came and went and no Di2 mountain bike group. Kind of surprised by this in all honesty. Those cranks look great in person.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by oaklandish View Post
    I also kinda suspect you might have better insight on this than us pleebz and I am sure they will offer at least 2 cassettes. So, I am basically criticizing the information that we have available so far, and the cassette range as currently documented on this forum maxes out at 40t. I'd be happy to be wrong on this!
    OK, after the official release I still see only one cassette. This looks to be not at all what I was looking for in my next drivetrain. Perhaps an X01 cassette and FH with an XTR 11sp RD and shifter? I wonder if the cog spacings are similar?

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    For the price, the damn thing should have a cage that snaps out over the chain, sets the gear, then retracts down and inside of the chainring to protect itself. I think they missed the boat on both Di2 implementations, restricting it's use primarily to racers. Too much dinero for something that will get whacked or meet the ground from time to time.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flamingtaco View Post
    For the price, the damn thing should have a cage that snaps out over the chain, sets the gear, then retracts down and inside of the chainring to protect itself. I think they missed the boat on both Di2 implementations, restricting it's use primarily to racers. Too much dinero for something that will get whacked or meet the ground from time to time.
    Meh....CX dudes use them at the top level and don't have any more issues than the mechanical groups. I'd wager that CX bikes takes more abuse than a XC bike.

    I'm more shocked guys will spend $1800 on (2) enve rims.

    Di2 is less about immediate performance to me....more about consistent shifting over time without the worry of adjustment, water intrusion, sticky shifting, mud, etc.

    In the infamous words of Ron Popeil, "set it and forget it".

    N

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