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  1. #1
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    Where did the low-normal/rapid-rise derailleur go?!

    I just picked up a new bike with the new XTR 2x10 system. I love it EXCEPT! the only option on the rear derailleur is top-normal. Does anyone know if Shimano is going release a Shadow Rapid Rise derailleur?

    I've been using rapid-rise for 10 years. It makes uphill shifting so much better. My brain is programmed for it, and now every time I come to a hill I end up gearing up instead of down! I needs my rapid-rise!

    /Guad

  2. #2
    the catalan connection
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    I wonder too. I' m so used to it that I can't think of any other option. I was about to go 10 speed when I noticed there was no rr derailleur option, so I just going to stay 9 speed.
    "Blessed is the man who, having nothing to say, abstains from giving us wordly evidence of the fact." George Elliot

  3. #3
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    I get the idea that Shimano's given up on rapid-rise. Maybe not, but I hardly ever see or hear of it anymore. It seems to have gone the way of those brake levers that also shifted gears for you.

  4. #4
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    Rapid rise and dual control took the same bus out of Shimano town.
    I'm a member of NSMBA and IMBA Canada

  5. #5
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    Does Shimano read this forum? It's strange they don't have any way to provide feedback on their own website.

    I'm hoping they haven't given up on rapid-rise. In my opinion, rapid rise should be the standard. I'm going to have a hell of a time switching between my older bike with rapid-rise and new bike with top-normal. Ug.

  6. #6
    the catalan connection
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    I read somewhere around here that the newer shadow derailleurs donīt play well together with RR inverted parallelograms. Something about cable routing and pull I believe.
    Dual Controls were matched with RR derailleurs, but were not exclusive of them. Actually RR derailleurs were already here long before DC. So, yes, thay took the same bus out of shimano town, but they didnīt arrive on the same one
    Not saying anyone above said so, just thought was worth making the point clear.
    BTW, anyone noticed that is the first year that shimano doesnīt show XTR V brakes on the new group? Another one that is gone, and these were really good. Iīm going to buy a set before they go. Just to keep them.They donīt deserve to be forgotten...
    Last edited by What&son; 05-11-2011 at 02:27 AM.
    "Blessed is the man who, having nothing to say, abstains from giving us wordly evidence of the fact." George Elliot

  7. #7
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    My favourite combo was running 7 speed thumbies with the XTR RR derailleurs, that way you pushed both shifters forward to go faster. That was the same advantage that made them a good match with the dual controls, the lever push was the same for both left and right for upshifting.

    I suspect that RR derailleurs just had too small a sales volume to keep going with them as they really seemed to rub a lot of people the wrong way, I liked the quick downshift action on them.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guad
    I've been using rapid-rise for 10 years. It makes uphill shifting so much better. My brain is programmed for it, and now every time I come to a hill I end up gearing up instead of down! I needs my rapid-rise!

    /Guad
    OK, now including you and rockyuphill, that makes 7 people who liked retard rise.

    Thank god Shimano gave up on it. Few wanted it when it came out, and few want it now. In fact, shortly after Shimano came out with it is when SRAM started having success because Shimano was pushing RR, and people didn't want it, so they bought SRAM. RR goes down in history as the shrinking of Shimano and the growth of SRAM. No, I don't like SRAM, as I've only preferred Shimano shifters for over 15 years.
    May the air be filled with tires!

  9. #9
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    Is there no help for the rapid rise rider?

    Quote Originally Posted by rockyuphill View Post
    Rapid rise and dual control took the same bus out of Shimano town.
    I love my dual control shifters, and on Monday broke my derailleur. I can't find any rapid rise derailleurs at any local bike shops, and we have many around Seattle. I'll end up buying off eBay, probably used. I may opt to by two so that I don't have to "upgrade" my shifters if I break my new (used) derailleur some day.

    Shimano, if you do read the fora here, please either make a limited production run. You can charge more than normal to offset the higher costs of a small run since our only other option is to also replace our shifters, and in my case my brake levers as well.

  10. #10
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    I'm a member of NSMBA and IMBA Canada

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blaster1200 View Post
    OK, now including you and rockyuphill, that makes 7 people who liked retard rise.

    Thank god Shimano gave up on it. Few wanted it when it came out, and few want it now. In fact, shortly after Shimano came out with it is when SRAM started having success because Shimano was pushing RR, and people didn't want it, so they bought SRAM. RR goes down in history as the shrinking of Shimano and the growth of SRAM. No, I don't like SRAM, as I've only preferred Shimano shifters for over 15 years.
    Actually it is eight people you narrow minded pin-head. RR feels so much more natural but of corse I use my brakes "moto" style. Guess I need to stock up on RR deraileurs.
    Too fat for XC, and not skilled enough for FR

  12. #12
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    Make that 9.

  13. #13
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    If any of you rapid-rise guys are interested, I have a like new XTR rear derail I would love to get rid of. I think I rode it twice before swapping it out.
    I turn a wrench @ Simplicity Cycles
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  14. #14
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    Same here, is there any reason shimano don't produce it anymore??

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blaster1200 View Post
    OK, now including you and rockyuphill, that makes 7 people who liked retard rise.
    Oh man, I haven't laughed this hard in ages!

    Back in my bike shop days we called it rapid demise; that's what we were hoping would happen to it so we would never have to work with it again.

  16. #16
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    That makes me the number 8 RR fanboy. Bring it back, Shimano! It is so intuitive...I know it made it so much easier to teach my wife how to shift. Press the right lever down...the chain goes down to the next gear. Press it up, the chain goes up. It doesn't get any better than that.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikewrench View Post
    If any of you rapid-rise guys are interested, I have a like new XTR rear derail I would love to get rid of. I think I rode it twice before swapping it out.
    please PM me cost..

  18. #18
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    In case anyone is looking, Jenson still has them listed in XT and LX and yes I to prefer Rapid Rise, much more intuitive and sure as hell suits my not so good thumbs, paired with the new trigger shifters it's heaven.
    Shimano XT RD-M760 Rear Derailleur at JensonUSA.com
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  19. #19
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    Nine people!

    I can't say if it's more intuitive or not, but it certainly makes more sense to me. I'm more likely to need to quickly grab an easier gear than quickly grab a harder gear. If I come round a bend and there's a steep pinch right there, it's quicker for me to move my index finger to the little trigger and pull back, or push my thumb forward (I have dual pull on both bikes) and rapidly index through the gears. Top normal I have to move my thumb around the big lever then onto it, and even though I can get a few gears per stroke, it's still slower.

    Guess I should get a couple of spare RR derailleurs while they're selling cheap, to last me a few years, then see what happens after that.

    I never had any great desire to go 10 speed so another few years of 9 should be fine.
    Last edited by nuclear_powered; 11-14-2011 at 04:41 AM.

  20. #20
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    Rapid rise and dual control took the same bus out of Shimano town.
    Good! They're probably sitting in the junk heap next to the biopace chain rings. RR and DC were probably the biggest duds in Shimano's history. If I had this stuff I'd give it to you guys just to get it out of my sight

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonathanGennick View Post
    I get the idea that Shimano's given up on rapid-rise. Maybe not, but I hardly ever see or hear of it anymore. It seems to have gone the way of those brake levers that also shifted gears for you.

    It's not that.
    Shadow derailleurs don't lend themselves well to rapid rise. It has to do with how the cable and housing have to connect to the derailleur.

    Sram uses a similar cable and housing attachment. Do they have a Low Normal setup available?
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  22. #22
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    You RR guys don't make enough noise.

    Look at what the Grip Shift fans got SRAM to do when it came to 10 spd shifters.
    I resolve to constantly assert my honest opinion on anything and everything - whether it is requested or not.
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  23. #23
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    After 3 years on XT dual-control RR I rode exclusively XO triggers this summer.

    Meh.

    I guess I'll live with it, not gonna buy enough STI-RR parts to last me the rest of my life...
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  24. #24
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    This sucks. You can add me to the list of people who love RR. I never had any issues with setting one up. I even had one of the original ones that had rolla ma jigs built into it. Sad news indeed.

  25. #25
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    If any of you guys need one I've got a NIB XTR RR rear derailleur that I'd unload. PM me if you're interested.

  26. #26
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    make that 11 or are we 12 now ?

    I have stocked up on RR rear mechs.
    And now Im just waiting for the new Ultegralevel flatbar 10spd shifter , then Im off to 2x10spd RR land , cant wait :-)
    cheers

  27. #27
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    I can't believe that you RR guys are coming out in the tens of thousands! Scratch that...tens.

    Quote Originally Posted by caspar View Post
    I have stocked up on RR rear mechs.
    And now Im just waiting for the new Ultegralevel flatbar 10spd shifter , then Im off to 2x10spd RR land , cant wait :-)
    cheers
    You're in luck! The Ultegra level 10-speed flat bar shifters have been out for years!
    The SL-R770 "non series component" shift levers are considered as Ultegra level. Unfortunately, they're expensive! Note that they will not work on the current generation of Dyna-Sys 10-speed stuff, but they'll work with the previous 9-speed derailleurs with 10-speed cassettes as well as all of the 10-speed road stuff. The tech info specifies specific front derailleurs, but I believe you can use mtb derailleurs, but I can't confirm.

    Shimano SL-R770 10 SP Flat Bar Shifter at JensonUSA.com

    They're hard to find info on Shimano's site, but here's some info from Shimano Austrailia:
    Product

    http://techdocs.shimano.com/media/te...9830609221.pdf
    http://techdocs.shimano.com/media/te...9830683913.pdf
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  28. #28
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    Add me to that list! Love the rapid rise.......too bad they will not be making it anymore. Its the only reason why I kept using Shimano over the years.
    When I finally upgrade to 10 speed Ill probably go SRAM. Does the same job and is lighter! Here is no reason to stick with Shimano.
    Hope Shimano is listening........There is a market for it

    Little history for BLASTER1200
    Rapid Rise made its first appearance in the 8 Speed models M951 (Circa 1997 or 1998 I believe). In 2003 with the release of the 960 series they only produced the rear derailleur which was rapid rise (M960) and came out with the Dual control shifters (no triggers). That is when people started to really look at SRAM as a serious alternative. SRAM came out with trigger shifters around this time as well....etc etc.... and yes the Dual controls were not very well liked. But as we see choice is always a good thing in the bike industry

  29. #29
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    Why rush to 10spd, nothing fantastic there IMHO, at least not for me to loose RR, so I'm stocking up on RR RDs to last me a few years - FYI CRC has them in stock, so stock up.
    Quote Originally Posted by ATOMICned View Post
    Add me to that list! Love the rapid rise.......too bad they will not be making it anymore. Its the only reason why I kept using Shimano over the years.
    When I finally upgrade to 10 speed Ill probably go SRAM. Does the same job and is lighter! Here is no reason to stick with Shimano.
    Hope Shimano is listening........There is a market for it

    Little history for BLASTER1200
    Rapid Rise made its first appearance in the 8 Speed models M951 (Circa 1997 or 1998 I believe). In 2003 with the release of the 960 series they only produced the rear derailleur which was rapid rise (M960) and came out with the Dual control shifters (no triggers). That is when people started to really look at SRAM as a serious alternative. SRAM came out with trigger shifters around this time as well....etc etc.... and yes the Dual controls were not very well liked. But as we see choice is always a good thing in the bike industry
    One day your life will flash before your eyes, will it be worth watching??

  30. #30
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    How is rapid-rise more intuitive than standard shifting?

    Whenever I change chainrings in the front, I use the same finger on my other hand to match gears so my cadence doesnt change. Left thumb in to shift to the big ring, right thumb in a click or two to go down 1-2 gears on the cassette for a smooth transition. Left index finger in to drop to the granny gear, right index in to move the chain to 1-2 cogs smaller out back for a smooth change in cadence.

    RR seems like this would be all backwards. Sure you would have to think 'thumbs mean i'm speeding up, index fingers mean I'm slowing down' but that seems more confusing on the bike. At least to me.

  31. #31
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    What's so hard about both thumb levers switch to a harder gear and both triggers shift to an easier gear, pretty natural to me. Using "normal" RDs is confusing and caused me loads of wrong shifts before I moved to RR when I was first starting.

    Quote Originally Posted by GTscoob View Post
    How is rapid-rise more intuitive than standard shifting?

    RR seems like this would be all backwards. Sure you would have to think 'thumbs mean i'm speeding up, index fingers mean I'm slowing down' but that seems more confusing on the bike. At least to me.
    One day your life will flash before your eyes, will it be worth watching??

  32. #32
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    Yep Thumbs for big gears, fingers for small gears. If you were a noob it would be easy to teach you that skill. If all derailleurs were originally designed RR than we would be saying how crazy High Normal derailleurs are......

  33. #33
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    I'm a noob regarding front derailleurs after running 1x9s and singlespeeds for years and standard derailleurs make more sense for recovery shifting, at least to me. The faster/slower thought process works for y'all since you're used to RR, but I just think standard derailleurs are better for effective recovery shifting and cadence management.

    And based on the market research Shimano has done, I'm sure I'm not alone in this regard.

  34. #34
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    High Normal derailleurs may be able to gear into your lower gears faster, but not by much. With the advent of ramps and gates on the cogset rapid rise actually works better (I know this has been discussed a thousand times on these forums) using them to move up and down the cogset thus reducing wear on the chain yada yada yada......(When gears were first made there was no ramps/gates so brute force from the derailleur was used to move the chain) and so it is still with high normal......

  35. #35
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    True story: I found that a RR rear derailleur is more winter-ride resistant, since if (when?) the spring freezes up, I can push it back (i.e. upshift) with my foot without stopping.

    Yeah, I really reaching here. Old habits die hard.
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  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTscoob View Post
    How is rapid-rise more intuitive than standard shifting?
    I will agree that Rapid-Rise is more intuitive than standard shifters.
    I start a lot of beginners into mountain biking, and one of the first things I explain is the shifting. With "normal" shifters, pushing the left thumb lever makes the gears harder, but pushing with the right thumb makes the gears easier. So beginners have difficulties remembering which lever makes the gears easier or harder. And I always hate having to openly say to those with normal shifters, "yeah, it's backwards and confusing."

    Since pulling either index finger lever on the Rapid Rise makes the gears easier, it's easier to understand and remember. This is why beginners flocked to and embrace RR.

    Overall performance of RR is ok when it's new and working good, but if performance slightly deteriorates, you're screwed on shifts into easier gears in the back, whereas with normal systems, you're essentially pushing it into easier gears. A slight mis-shift into taller gears doesn't cause you to stop going up a hill on standard shifting.

    Atomicned, dual control shifters are another issue altogether. I disliked those too. Like RR, conceptually it was a great idea.
    May the air be filled with tires!

  37. #37
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    I don't care that much about rapid rise but I love my dual control. I now have 2 MTBs with it. One XTR one XT, both shift beautifully. It looks like shimano cheaped out a lot in 2012. They used to offer 3 different kinds of brake calipers too. Now they have 1 and stupid adapters....

  38. #38
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    I'm having a hard time figuring out why SRAM and Shimano gave up on rapid rise. I think it makes a ton more sense and actually more functional when shifting. I'm new to the SRAM 10 speed stuff and did my first race yesterday. When I was shifting to go uphill, it took a lot more effort and coordination to scoop 1-2 gears with my thumb. Tapping the front trigger is a much easier (and more coordinated) transition into an uphill.

    I've been reading a lot about it, and it seems as though the main gap to retrofitting an XTR RR derailleur is the shifting ratio from 9 speed to 10 speed? I assume changing the derailleur wheels is fairly easy.

    Has anyone tried it or have details on the shift ratios that would be needed to make it work?

    Better yet, any SRAM or Shimano reps reading this that could knock on someone's door to get this into their production line? I would buy one without hesitation and it seems like there a lot of folks on this chain that would also.

    RR FTW!!!!

  39. #39
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    I'd pay a premium for Rapid Rise if offered again.

  40. #40
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    I found RR to work much better with dual-control. I'll also be stocking up. Would like to keep using it until Di2 moves to the dirt.

  41. #41
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    Another fan of RR shifting. I do wish there would be a Shadow Rapid Rise derailleur made, as I've broken two now that protruded and hit rocks and such.

  42. #42
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    I just broke my XTR 952 (stick)...and I have the dual control brake/shifters. When the cable was under tension, it would shift up (easier) in gear. Which XT Shadow derailleur would be a good replacement?
    Thanks!
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  43. #43
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    Having been both a mechanic and in sales for many years, the "general population" of riders never embraced rapid-rise very well. I, personally liked the Dual-Control levers a lot, but also know that most people didn't. I won't diss someone's preference for a shifting system - you like what you like. But I liked being able to "force" a 3 or 4 gear shift to a lower gear with a single thumb push. Let up on your effort, make the shift in a second or so, then power on when you needed to get up a steep section on a tight, blind-corner trail, etc... I had a buddy with RR that did 3 or 4 clicks on his RR-equipped bike, and had to power on before the bike had taken it's time shifting, and his rear derailleur kept right on going into the rear spokes. Broken derailleur and a couple of mangled spokes.

    Shimano pushing RR on the population is what gave SRAM it's foot in the door with both customers and manufacturers. While I personally prefer Shimano equipment in most cases, it did end up giving us a choice of another component line that works very well - most SRAM vs. Shimano picks are made because of ergonomic preferences. Now if SRAM would only get away from DOT Brake fluid and dial their brakes in a bit more, we'd have a really good competition, IMO.
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  44. #44
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    Add me to the distinguished list of the normally-lows.

    The first thing that I do when I rent a bike or buy a new one is pop on a RR RD. I'm too old and slow to change my shifting ways now, especially to an inferior and counter-intuitive system.

    A reason RR never caught on is that it wasn't OEM on new bikes (or not enough of them).

    Is anyone running RR with 10 spd shifters successfully?
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  45. #45
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    I hear that the road 10spd shifters work with 9spd rapid rise. Does anyone know if they are match maker compatible?

    Better yet, could someone from SRAM or SHIMANO just make a friggin rapid rise derailleur already?

  46. #46
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    I switched out my RR a few months ago to go back to top normal. But I completely get the people who love RR. It does make sense and work well. I just couldn't get my brain to adjust after 10 years of top normal. I found myself having to think about every shift rather than it being unconscious. It was even worse when I switched bikes occasionally and couldn't remember how to shift.

    Even now I'm having to relearn top normal but its coming back to me. It all boils down to the old adage: "Which one is best? The one your'e used to."

  47. #47
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    As long as Shimano will keep producing top normal RDs only, I'll keep up with fantastic M770 low normal derailleurs...

    rapid rise rules.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bro_cro_xc View Post
    As long as Shimano will keep producing top normal RDs only, I'll keep up with fantastic M770 low normal derailleurs...

    rapid rise rules.
    I guess if I wanted to go back to 9sp, that's my best option....but I love the 2x10 setup and would hate to have to give that up.

    Shimano: When are you going to make a rapid rise in 10sp???

  49. #49
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    I'm one more in favor of the RR derailleurs.

    To me it has nothing to do with shifting patterns. We all have got the ability to learn new stuff.

    What made me a fan of RR, and this was my personal feel even before encountering Sheldon Brown's premise on the subject, was the fact that it seemed to induce less stress on the drivetrain.

    On an emergency, a RR derailleur, having to do it's own shifting onto bigger cogs only with the help of its spring is better than the top normal design which requires mashing into the shifter and unnaturally forcing the chain to change gears.

    On the contrary, when you shift into smaller cogs on a RR design it usually means you're gaining speed and having the ability to do somehow smooth transitions. Therefore forcing the shifter/chain shouldn't be happening.

    Having said that, I'm still using a 9spd RR rear derailleur. But I'll be needing a new drivetrain soon. At the present, to me, doesn't make much sense to acquire a complete 9spd set if I can get the newer 10spd designs with a considerably small price difference. Yes I do prefer the RR design, but those parts have been discontinued and I usually keep my stuff a considerable large amount of time by comparison to the average mtber. I won't stash parts for rainy days, can't see that as cost effective, and I also feel we shouldn't stop on time, so with some sadness goodbye RR.

    If someone on Shimano is seeing this, please do re-engineer current rear derailleurs and reintroduce the system. I'll be buying them as other will.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTscoob View Post
    How is rapid-rise more intuitive than standard shifting?

    Whenever I change chainrings in the front, I use the same finger on my other hand to match gears so my cadence doesnt change. Left thumb in to shift to the big ring, right thumb in a click or two to go down 1-2 gears on the cassette for a smooth transition. Left index finger in to drop to the granny gear, right index in to move the chain to 1-2 cogs smaller out back for a smooth change in cadence.

    RR seems like this would be all backwards. Sure you would have to think 'thumbs mean i'm speeding up, index fingers mean I'm slowing down' but that seems more confusing on the bike. At least to me.
    If people like rapid rise, for whatever reason, that's fine with me, but "more intuitive" isn't a valid reason IMO.

    If you have used any shifting system for 5 rides or more, and you are still thinking about which way to shift up or down, you must have brain damage or something. Every shifitng system is equally intuitive once you get into the habit of it, I think.

  51. #51
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    From a practical standpoint, if I snap a shifter cable, I'd much rather ride off the mountain with a functioning low gear than be forced into the smallest cog.

    Also, RR rears are consistent with the way front shifters work. The springs favor lower gears.

  52. #52
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    I agree with the opinion above. Find the rr much more natural when suddenly faced with "steep" during a tight twisty trail ride. Easier to "pull the trigger"

  53. #53
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    And what If the rear gear cable should unsuspectingly snap while one is messing down HARD on a higher gear while riding with a RR derailleur . . . Well, we can all just imagine.

  54. #54
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    listen to ATBScott, he knows what he's talking about, like him I'm a bike mechanic and I diden't understand the use of rr from the start. It looked like a good idee and the only advantage it has is that indeed you use the same fingers to go faster/slower butt there it ends! If you need a sudden stop you need to shift before you stop and with the rr you need to click several times to do this instead of just one firm push for 3 or 4 gears lower. Also for removal and assembly the rr is less practical, and if your cable is removed your derailller is open and sticking all the way out your frame: vulnerable in case of transport and so on and so on. Butt yes if you are used to the rr than it's not nice of shimano that they don't offer the choise of both systems. That sucks. And for the dual controls: they are so ugly on any bike, and also much more vulnerable, on a roadbike it's very good but on mtb??? Good they don't produce em any more.

  55. #55
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    Seems to me Sheldon Brown was a fan of Rapid Rise.

    Anyone knocking it is a snob plain and simple. For any beginner MTBer, RR is easier to learn. When you don't know yourself or your bike well enough, RR makes getting into the right gear on a hill MUCH easier.

    Suggesting it was why Shimano gave up market share to SRAM over it is pretty stoopid. They offered RR RD-Mxx0 and regular RD-Mxx1 derailleurs simultaneously.... so it isn't like you had no choice. Everyone always had a choice. Its NOW that one is being pushed over another!

    I'm pretty sure they got rid of it because it saved more chains and cassettes than Shimano wanted to sell you.

  56. #56
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    Are you saying that RR actually reduces "chain" and "cassette" wear, hence making shifting perfect?

    Do you have stats to back that statement up?

    I would think that if what you say is true, that would've been a SELLING point for them. But then the burden would been on them to provide PROOF.

  57. #57
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    Well, I never said anything about shifting being perfect.

    But... have you actually used RR? I've used both on the same course. Uphill in the wrong gear, at the wrong cadence, practically standing on the pedals because you're not in shape, ie very high driveline tension:

    With RR, you click the shifter, it releases cables tension, the bigger gear is grabbed via the cassette/chain ramps at the appropriate time as long as you don't come to a stop. The derailleur is only being mashed into the bigger gear at its own spring force.

    Without RR, you mash the shifter into a gear it doesn't want to grab. So you stretch the cable, you mash the chain against the cassette by mashing the derailleur against both. The derailleur is being mashed into the bigger gear at greater than its own spring force. The cassette teeth take a beating from all the extra force of this poorly executed shift that should have not occurred.

    And it was a selling point.... easier shifting for people new to the sport. People who know their bikes don't make those shifts on aluminum XTR gear sets to begin with. But I've watched two girlfriends and a wife do exactly what I'm describing and reproduced the results for myself.

    What needs more proof? Try it for yourself if you need proof. Act like a beginner if you aren't one.

  58. #58
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    I'll take it a step further for you....

    My kid had a Giant STP 125 we did single track with. 1x7 with a normal derailleur. Twist shifters.

    Again, uphill, not enough experience to know what gear to have in advance, sweaty from the heat and riding hard:

    He did not have the grip strength to turn and hold the shifter to grab an easier gear. The cable tension was greater and the derailleur didn't want to mash into the bigger gears on top of it. With sweaty palms he literally had to stop his bike and then shift gears.

    I had to tie a rag to his handlebar so he could wipe his hand before shifting. I scuffed up the rubber to give him more traction. And yet, there were times where he was tired after riding for an hour plus where I had to shift for him. Did I mention I purchased Giro gloves in his size?

    You guys call that BETTER? Seriously? Cause with an RR derailleur he'd have just kept on riding. How is that better in any way whatsoever?

    Even after his second season when he learned how to judge gears on a hill in advance... no one always gets it right... it was still a grip strength issue. Please explain how a normal derailleur served him better.......

    Normal derailleurs are for in-shape racer types and there are clear benefits in those circumstances. RR should have been for everyone else. Personally, Shimano won't get me to upgrade my drivetrain past 9spd without reintroducing RR.

  59. #59
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    RR is the way to go.

    Quote Originally Posted by hadique View Post
    Well, I never said anything about shifting being perfect.

    But... have you actually used RR? I've used both on the same course. Uphill in the wrong gear, at the wrong cadence, practically standing on the pedals because you're not in shape, ie very high driveline tension:

    With RR, you click the shifter, it releases cables tension, the bigger gear is grabbed via the cassette/chain ramps at the appropriate time as long as you don't come to a stop. The derailleur is only being mashed into the bigger gear at its own spring force.

    Without RR, you mash the shifter into a gear it doesn't want to grab. So you stretch the cable, you mash the chain against the cassette by mashing the derailleur against both. The derailleur is being mashed into the bigger gear at greater than its own spring force. The cassette teeth take a beating from all the extra force of this poorly executed shift that should have not occurred.

    And it was a selling point.... easier shifting for people new to the sport. People who know their bikes don't make those shifts on aluminum XTR gear sets to begin with. But I've watched two girlfriends and a wife do exactly what I'm describing and reproduced the results for myself.

    What needs more proof? Try it for yourself if you need proof. Act like a beginner if you aren't one.
    I run all my bikes on the RR derailers, why it is not the predominant system for derailer makers is beyond me. For many years, customizing bikes and making small parts, I was using the regular rear derailers until I started using the RR on one of my bikes, that has been more than 10 years ago. Shifting is way smoother and natural for the derailer function.

  60. #60
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    Where did the low-normal/rapid-rise derailleur go?!

    I don't know what I hate most - rapid rise or avid brakes


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  61. #61
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    Well all you rapid rise fans will be happy about the new xtrs electronic shifting. No more complaining about how hard it is to shift

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  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpfitness View Post
    Well all you rapid rise fans will be happy about the new xtrs electronic shifting. No more complaining about how hard it is to shift

    Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk
    All I was trying to say is that most of you who say you love rapid rise love it because of the easy you can make the downshifts. if you have an electronic system, you are just tapping a little button. it doesn't get any easier than that. no need for rapid rise.

    As for the need for electronic shifting, of course we don't NEED it but realistically if we think about technology, we don't need power windows and door locks on our cars either and while they have been around for a long time, for a good long time you could still get crank windows and push locks. I would say it's only been about the last 10 years that they have completely gone away as an option. at some point, electronic shifting will be so refined and so inexpensive it will just be the norm.
    Last edited by rockcrusher; 03-11-2014 at 10:23 AM.

  63. #63
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    I think maybe you got negative rep because even the edit of your post is condescending.... it doesn't get any easier to shift than pushing a button.... agreed.... however not only is there no longer a need for rapid rise, there is no longer a need for the opposite either. So framing it as a solution to rapid rise is where your bias shines through.

    Had you said, electronic shifting will provide the rapid rise ease of grabbing a slower gear with the normal rise speed of grabbing a faster gear, you'd have likely gotten positive rep.

    That said, part of the appeal of bicycles for many people is the low carbon footprint of it. Adding batteries to my bike is so unappealing to me I can't begin to describe it. From so many angles. If the derailleur could be powered by a dynamo hub, that would be different, maybe.

  64. #64
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    I love rapid rise too. building a new bike and want 1x11 RR but nope just 1x9. Have this on my other bike. Which they still did it.

  65. #65
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    Problem is, the clutch type derailleurs really are that much of an improvement, even over the older non-clutch Shadow type, especially if you ride really rough stuff, honestly are. I'm testing out a 10spd setup now using a Zee shifter and XTR RD and with the good cables it's really smooth, but just counter intuitive to RR, have to think sometimes when I go to shift so I don't go the wrong way to what I need to. Gona have to make the decision if I'm going to switch/upgrade to 10spd to get the clutch or not, if so it's 3 bikes and the 9spd stuff is still all good

    Quote Originally Posted by Mugtree View Post
    I love rapid rise too. building a new bike and want 1x11 RR but nope just 1x9. Have this on my other bike. Which they still did it.
    One day your life will flash before your eyes, will it be worth watching??

  66. #66
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    The problem I and multiple mechanics had that worked on my bike is that RR worked great initially but when subjected to wet dirt and grime the shifting would go off. SRAM was clunky and harder to shift but it just worked.


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  67. #67
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    Shoulda gotten better mechanics Never had such an issue and I've been on them for 10 years, ride in all sorts of weather, more so when I first started and just always wanted to ride, no matter what. Now maybe it's shifter specific, a I never used the Dual Controls myself, have always used the normal trigger shifters.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrDon View Post
    The problem I and multiple mechanics had that worked on my bike is that RR worked great initially but when subjected to wet dirt and grime the shifting would go off. SRAM was clunky and harder to shift but it just worked.


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  68. #68
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    My bad. I'm getting old. I had issue with the early stuff, around 2000 - correct me if I'm wrong. Later Shimano stuff not so much, but it still didn't like the Ohio Valley crud.


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  69. #69
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    I don't care about the low normal concept even though I've been riding XTR 8 speed rr for 15 years before going to xt8000. I just want my thumb press to go to a lower gear and my index finger pull to be three click. At least two click.

    When rr first came out the snobs called it "rapid demise". But that was back in the late 90s when upshifting using the thumb was not as precise. They would be stuttering over gears up a climb and I'd be click click click. It worked good then, maybe obsolete now.

  70. #70
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    ... it went bye bye, where it belongs, it's less accurate, too many compromises with that design!

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