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  1. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by car_nut View Post
    Very good points and I do agree. I'm just frustrated since I feel a good number of people have been asking for something like XX1 since 9 speed was released. Shimano's answer has always been "No, you don't know what you're talking about, you won't like it". I'm glad SRAM did it and hopefully it will cause Shimano to rethink their stance.
    I completely agree, and have started getting impatient as well. I wish shimano would come out with a solid 1x offering to compete with XX1 sooner than later. I'm a much bigger fan of shimano products vs sram, but part of that is due to the fact that shimano generally takes their time when developing something vs allowing the consumer to do the beta testing.

    Quote Originally Posted by PlanB View Post
    I'd be pretty surprised if there isn't a "new and improved" mechanical XTR alongside any electronic offerings. They continued to improve mechanical Dura Ace after Di2 was released and, if anything, the buy in for electronic shifting will be less on the mtb side than it is on the road.

    I would also be surprised if they don't rethink the XTR crank offerings. I could see them ditching the triple and the "race" double in favour of one new crank with double and single ring options. On the road side, the new DA and Ultegra now have a single spider for compact, standard rings.

    To me, the big question is what do they do out back? 11 speed? 10-42? Personally, I'm hoping for some kind of 10-speed wide range setup but I'm doubtful. My guess is a whole new freehub and an 11 speed cassette.
    I hope that shimano will keep evolving the mechanical groupsets, as they have done on the road. I recently swapped to ultegra 6800 from dura ace 7900 on my road bike and the improvement is huge. The only 'gotcha' is the new freehub body that it forces, which for the most part won't fit mtb hubs due to no backward compatible wider freehub offerings by the hub manufacturers. Something tells me shimano will go with and 11 speed 11-40, 11-42, or even 11-44 cassette, which will force a wider freehub as it does on the road, and will likely share the same dimensions as the 11 speed road cassette to keep things consistent. It seems 11-42 offers a pretty wide range and would allow someone to run a slightly larger 1x chainring than they normally could with a 11-36. My current 1x setup is a 32x11-36. Great for most riding around where I live, but would kill me in the steep mountains at high altitude. However, now that wolftooth offers a 42t cog that will fit my XT cassette I could always swap to one of those and have a lower ratio. The only problem with that is the big ratio jump from 15-19... which seems to be in a bad spot.

    In terms of the crankset I think shimano would be very wise to go with a removable spider design for the next generation stuff. I used to be completely sold on shimano cranks until I used a few of the SRAM removable spider designs. It really opens your options without forcing an odd BCD. I'm running wolftooth direct mount rings on two sram cranksets right now and really like the simplicity and reduced weight that the direct mount chainrings allow.

  2. #252
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  3. #253
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    Shimano's answer to SRAM's 1x11

    Still the other S wins....for a true 1x WR 11spd mtnbike groupset...

    Pity Shimano, I expected equal or more....

  4. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gripo View Post
    Still the other S wins....for a true 1x WR 11spd mtnbike groupset...

    Pity Shimano, I expected equal or more....
    I'll take Shimano with a General Lee partial cassette over Sram any day.
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  5. #255
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    Maybe the look of the those cranks will grow on me, but I am not so sure. And why stop at 40 tooth? For me this makes a Shimano 1x set-up probably out of my gear ratio range... and I'm not so keen to switch to SRAM. Di-2 on a mountain bike (or in general)?....meh. I think I'm with TwoTone on the modified cassette idea.

    It is early yet and maybe these things will get hashed out for the better. I won't be holding my breath on that though.

  6. #256
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    Yeah shimano has blown this one big time. Honestly, I wish this 1x tech would make its way all the way to road bikes. You know how annoying it is trying to teach new riders what shifters do??? Screw compact cranks give me a 44 with a 10-42 for the road. But I digress, having just moved to Florida and its zero hills, I'm ready to strip off my granny and bignring from my triple crank. With a 10spd drivetrains shimano is still making MTB triple cranks which seems ludicrous to me and I'm 250lbs and need all the help I can get going up hills!

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  7. #257
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    O yeah! I forgot to mention the triples? in 2014? whats the point? With a wide enough range cassette it has been pretty much proven that 1x is the direction and at most a 2x, and this is coming from a guy on a 29er in the Bay Area with plenty of steep and tech climbs.

    Again as details hash out, hopefully this will turn out to be a single spider-less crank with direct mount 1x or 2x or I guess 3x options galore.

  8. #258
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    Finally!

    The cranks are hideous, reminds me of the current Deore cranks except with ugly hollow rings. (Maybe it's just the way the light is cast?)
    Shimano's answer to SRAM's 1x11-62138.jpg

    I fail to see the benefit of hollow rings, especially on a cog with just 30-36 teeth. Do they really see much lateral load? Luckily the cranks can be easily subbed for something else. And the largest cog of 40 is disappointing, hopefully that is the "race" one for those that want closer ratios and a "trail" version in the 44-46 range will be coming. Other than that, looks good. I've always disliked the bulky look of trigger shifters, not to mention the ergonomics of throwing that downshift lever, nice to see something smaller.

    And no, electronic is not a bad thing, it will be a great option as long as they also offer high-end cable-driven groups.

  9. #259
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    The only other consideration. I have for my current drive train is to go from my 11-36 down to an 11-25 and then I will have road bike like cadence gaps and can start using my granny ring again

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  10. #260
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    I think you have to look at it from shimanos POV. They seem to have decided that they aren't interested in making people buy a new wheel or a $100 driver, so they have elected to keep things the same with just a little variation.

    You get 11 gears which is just one extra gear - it isn't a revolution that's for sure, but at least it still uses the same cassette body and the same deraileur architecture - therefore it's an upgrade option and mixing and matching is possible, with xx1 you need a compatible wheelset, an xd driver, a shifter, a cassette and a deraileur.

    Critically it also means at a race you can swap out a rear wheel in case of a failure - anyone's spare rear will do as long as it has a std ubiquitous cassette body.

    Ps - hopefully it's only a. $200 cassette as well.

  11. #261
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    Shimano's answer to SRAM's 1x11

    I also set up my carbon HT that has cyclocross tyres with 36t and X01.....sort of like your roadbike wish cpfitness, 1x roadie is a distinct possibility.

    Yep, Shimano are just plain stubborn to cycling re-invention.

  12. #262
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    Shimano road 11 is entirely incompatible with its predecessors. A new wider freehub body is needed to handle the wider cassette. I can't imagine that Shimano mtb 11 will work with any 10 spd parts.

    Expect the XTR cassette to be way more than $200.
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  13. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by bog View Post
    Shimano road 11 is entirely incompatible with its predecessors. A new wider freehub body is needed to handle the wider cassette. I can't imagine that Shimano mtb 11 will work with any 10 spd parts.

    Expect the XTR cassette to be way more than $200.
    Well if that is the case , then they got nothin'!

  14. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by bog View Post
    Shimano road 11 is entirely incompatible with its predecessors. A new wider freehub body is needed to handle the wider cassette. I can't imagine that Shimano mtb 11 will work with any 10 spd parts.
    This. I've seen one or two MTB hubs recently released with modified flange spacing and mention of "Shimano 11 speed" so my fears have now been validated. You thought buying a new driver for SRAM 11 speed was bad? How about a whole new hub with even worse flange spacing? I was hoping Shimano would finally see the light, but this confirms they're just on an entirely different page than I. 11-40 with a minimum of a 30t on the crank? And electronic shifting? No thanks to all of that. Bring on the SRAM x9-1!

  15. #265
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    Yep I figure the very distinct possibility of a new hub flange spacing is imminent in order to make space for the wider free-hub body. I do think a properly re-spaced 142mmx12 hub would still offer sufficient bracing angles for a pretty stiff wheel build, but that does not mean I want to be forced to do it just to use Shimano's latest offering.

    And Mutant, I never said electronic was bad, just meh! I'm sure it will shift awesome, but when I'm in the throws of a really fast techy single track ride, I never think about my shifting and just do it. In fact, if I focus at all on my bike and not the line or terrain it is the brakes, suspension, tires and then the gearing...well before the shifting. I won't personally be paying extra for it.
    Last edited by oaklandish; 02-14-2014 at 09:21 AM. Reason: clarification

  16. #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by oaklandish View Post
    Yep I figure the very distinct possibility of a new hub spacing is imminent. I do think a properly re-spaced 142mmx12 hub would still offer sufficient bracing angles for a pretty stiff wheel build, but that does not mean I want to be forced to do it just to use Shimano's latest offering.
    Shimano generally isn't one to mess with things like hub spacing. You can be sure it'll be 135QR and 12X142 compatible. They definitely don't mind changing up standards a bit but pretty much always ensure that you can put it on a reasonably new frame.

    Not all 10spd road hubs can be converted to 11spd but many can with a new free hub body and a wheel redish. Funny thing is that none of Shimano's 10spd wheels or hubs can be converted to 11spd. I stay away from their hubs and wheels for this reason.

    Also, I'm a huge fan of Shimano and Di2 so I'm looking forward to seeing more of this. I'd use this on my XC bike which has a double or triple crank depending on the ride (1X11 just doesn't have enough of a gear range) and I really like that Shimano has gone with a 30T option for a chainring. Absolutely perfect IMO!
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  17. #267
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    I think this is going to flop, hard. I don't like Sram 2x10, but XX1 is sweet. I think ill be running 10 speed for a long time. I just this month converted from 9 speed.

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  18. #268
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    What is the point of 11 speed with 2 or 3 front rings?
    and 11 - 40 is kinda narrow.

  19. #269
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    Re: Shimano's answer to SRAM's 1x11

    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    What is the point of 11 speed with 2 or 3 front rings?
    and 11 - 40 is kinda narrow.
    Exactly. 11-40 on a 1x is fine for me, but not at the expense of a new hub.

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  20. #270
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    Disappointing. Not worth it for me to upgrade just to go from 11-36 to 11-40.

  21. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by spsoon View Post
    Disappointing. Not worth it for me to upgrade just to go from 11-36 to 11-40.
    Especially when you can buy 42t cog and 16t (to replace 15 and 17) and make a 10sp equivalent.

  22. #272
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    The compromise you (and I) make is the slow and sometimes clumsy shifting with the add on 42T. With XX1/01 and I'm sure with Shimano...you'll get clean, crisp, and fast shifting every time. No compromise...except for the lighter wallet.

  23. #273
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    The opportunity to use 2x11 or 1x11 that only be possible with Shimano is the point. For those 1x11 is enough Sram is the best choice.

  24. #274
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    The rear derailleur looks mechanical but that front definitely looks Di2. Too many people complaining about the cassette range.

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    This all makes me kinda wonder if shimano didnt just give up. On one hand, they know they have so much market share and plenty of people are getting by just fine with shimano 10speed 1x systems so perhaps they are just fine with it as is and are hanging their hats on their name as well as better brake products. Xx1 addressed several issues(chain retention on 1x system, low and high end range on 1x systems, weight). SRAM could justify bringing it out at top level pricing. Shimano wznts us to pay xtr level prices for what? A 40t cog? What other features is this going to have?

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  26. #276
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    SRAM set the trend for 2x10, followed by 1x11. On the road side, Shimano is the leader with well developed products. On the mountainbike side regarding drivetrains on the other hand, they have been trying to catch op for the last 5 years, with no success.

    A 2x11 sure opens extra possibilities, but I don't think the majority is waiting for this. Bummer.

  27. #277
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    2x11 doesn't really open any possibilities. I have a 3x10 right now but there are pretty much no scenarios where a 22/36 is useful. If a hill is that steep, I'm walking up it.

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  28. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpfitness View Post
    2x11 doesn't really open any possibilities. I have a 3x10 right now but there are pretty much no scenarios where a 22/36 is useful. If a hill is that steep, I'm walking up it.
    Sure it does, for those that are riding 22/36, or even 20/36 up front. They can stick to a more common 24 up front.

  29. #279
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    Too little, too late. IF SRAM can bring out cheap 1x11 on the X9 and X7 levels, their sales will explode.

    If all 11speed cassettes will need new freehubs, then there's no downside for the SRAM switch, you will need new freehub either way. Actually SRAM's version has the added bonus of keeping the wider flange spacing.

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    I suppose we shouldn't judge too much on just a few images, but I see absolutely nothing interesting here. I have an XTR 980 (trail double) groupo that is fabulous, but if I ever do decide to try a single ring it will be either SRAM or a hack job with Wolftooth parts. The cassette is most disappointing -- all the hassle of a new freehub just to get a 40t cog? If I go through that, with SRAM, at least I'm getting a 10t and 42t cog.

    Di2 will probably be amazing, but at first glance, it looks like they totally misread the market on single rings. My guess is they were working on this before XX1 came out and changed everything. These days a lot of people are keen to simplify their drivetrains. And Shimano comes out with an electronic triple. Seems like bad judgement to me. Hopefully there's more to the new group.

  31. #281
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    Interestingly it looks like from the photos only the front derailleur is electronic. That would make sense. Not sure I would want to destroy an electronic rd with a stick....

  32. #282
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    I see a left & right electronic shifter

  33. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpfitness View Post
    This all makes me kinda wonder if shimano didnt just give up. On one hand, they know they have so much market share and plenty of people are getting by just fine with shimano 10speed 1x systems so perhaps they are just fine with it as is and are hanging their hats on their name as well as better brake products. Xx1 addressed several issues(chain retention on 1x system, low and high end range on 1x systems, weight). SRAM could justify bringing it out at top level pricing. Shimano wznts us to pay xtr level prices for what? A 40t cog? What other features is this going to have?

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    Its hard for me to absolve SRAM of all wrong doing when their cassette (which is not a one-time purchase) effectively costs $400 PLUS the cost of a driver body. Than they produced defective 11 speed grip shifters that were breaking on many peoples' first ride. And finally I have heard consistent bad things about their type 2 derailleurs clunking. That's 2 of the 3 major components of their drivetrain all with huge quality problems and the other one is outragously priced. And then their brakes... don't even get me started. Shimano only has to make something that works correctly and that is what I'm going to buy. To each their own.

  34. #284
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    The other thing that ticks me off about SRAM is to me it seems that they're the ones that don't care. They make defective products (09-12 Reba lowers crooked, ALL their brakes, the fragile carbon cages on their derailleurs for years...) and they don't correct the defects for multiple design generations. Literally the only SRAM things that I want are the ones Shimano doesn't (well, didn't) make - a 1-by-X drivetrain and grip shifters.

  35. #285
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    Shimano's answer to SRAM's 1x11

    Quote Originally Posted by madskatingcow View Post


    I see a left & right electronic shifter
    How do you think the new shifter action works? Push- push or maybe push forwards to shift down and then pull towards you to shift up?

    Looking at the small XTR 1x chainset picture the single ring version doesn't appear to use a narrow- wide chainring. For a 1x11 setup you may still need either a front chain guide or an aftermarket narrow-wide chainring to stop the chain coming off.

    With the front derailleur I'm wondering how many different versions there will be. Over the last few years mountain bikes have come with so many different front derailleur mounts that you'd need several designs of electronic front derailleur to fit them all. It might be that compatibility is limited to a few select bikes?

    Along the same lines you have the issue of battery placement and wiring. Some newer bikes come with what are clearly intended to be Di2 battery placements (the 2014 Specialized Epic with its SWAT toolkit for example which is a placeholder for a battery pack) but a lot of older bikes may have problems accommodating an external battery as there's no room, especially if you still want to carry a water bottle at the same time.

    Can you use an internal seatpost mounted battery at the same time as a dropper seatpost?

  36. #286
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    Re: Shimano's answer to SRAM's 1x11

    Quote Originally Posted by Mutantclover View Post
    The other thing that ticks me off about SRAM is to me it seems that they're the ones that don't care. They make defective products (09-12 Reba lowers crooked, ALL their brakes, the fragile carbon cages on their derailleurs for years...) and they don't correct the defects for multiple design generations. Literally the only SRAM things that I want are the ones Shimano doesn't (well, didn't) make - a 1-by-X drivetrain and grip shifters.
    If their products are so defective, why are people buying them? I openly admit I have no sram MTB experience but I heard haters hate about sram road groups yet my force group has been amazing. Bottom line, shimano has blown a tremendous opportunity here. Yes electronic shifting is cool, I especially love the idea of not having to fiddle with my drivetrain to keep it shifting smooth but to charge a premium price just to get it? There needs to be some other benefit here. There only saving grace will be if they rapidly trickle it down to the lower levels so at least make a mechanical 11spd as well down to the slx level so people will at least start adopting the new rear wheel they will need

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  37. #287
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    Quote Originally Posted by madskatingcow View Post
    SRAM set the trend for 2x10, followed by 1x11. On the road side, Shimano is the leader with well developed products. On the mountainbike side regarding drivetrains on the other hand, they have been trying to catch op for the last 5 years, with no success.

    A 2x11 sure opens extra possibilities, but I don't think the majority is waiting for this. Bummer.
    I don't agree with the catch up comment in terms of shimano trying to play catch up the past 5 years on the mtb side. IMO the shimano 2x system is superior to SRAM's. Yes, they were a little later to the market with a 2x system, but they took their time and developed a system that worked better and is more durable than SRAM's.

    On top of that shimano's brakes are in a different league compared to SRAM/Avid. There is no one that will question that.

    I'll gladly wait for something that works well where I don't have pay to be the beta tester.

    Am I overwhelmed by this little leak of information on the XTR stuff... not at all. However, this is a few pictures and likely not the whole picture. I'm also not a fan of 'new' shimano 11 speed spacing. I recently upgraded to 11 speed ultegra on the road side, and fortunately all I had to do was buy a new freehub. The increase in performance over the 10 speed dura ace groupset that it replaced is HUGE. However, I don't have this option with my mountain hubs, as no one offers an 11 speed compatible freehub. This poses a problem because I would like to go to an 11 speed road group on my disc cx bike... but there's no freehub for my disc hubs (king) that allow you to run 11 speed. All these new standards do suck, especially since NOW it's likely that each manufacturer has decided to come up with their own standard. Not good for us as consumers in terms of interchangeability... but maybe that's part of their plan???

  38. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiflow_21 View Post
    I don't agree with the catch up comment in terms of shimano trying to play catch up the past 5 years on the mtb side. IMO the shimano 2x system is superior to SRAM's. Yes, they were a little later to the market with a 2x system, but they took their time and developed a system that worked better and is more durable than SRAM's.
    Those who innovate always take a risk. If SRAM didn't come out with 2x10 or 1x11, do you think Shimano would have come out at all? You think the longer time it took them was to develop their products thoroughly or start developing? In the mtb drivetrain area, they changed from leaders to followers in my opinion. Sure, their XTR stuff is thoroughly developed and has some clever features (I've ridden XTR the past year and numerous years before, coming from X0 / XX), except for their XTR PD-M980 pedals . Love the XT / XTR brakes though, they are in a class of their own.

  39. #289
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    More photos:






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    Nice pics. So their strategy is simple. "Shimano 11 speed with your choice of mechanical or electronic shifting and our consistent shimano reliability and quality". Makes some sense but really isnt the point of 11 speed to be able to go to a 1x system. Seems ludicrous that they are still planning to have a 3x offering

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  42. #292
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    are you guys blind??? The description under the crank has the 1x chainring options listed.

    30t 32t 34t 36t

  43. #293
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    Re: Shimano's answer to SRAM's 1x11

    Quote Originally Posted by vizsladog View Post
    are you guys blind??? The description under the crank has the 1x chainring options listed.

    30t 32t 34t 36t
    Not blind at all but it also shows decriotios for 1x 2x and 3x on the shifter and derailleur parts

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  44. #294
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    How easy will it be to swap the front chainring with the crank still mounted on the bike? If possible at all?

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    I like the ability to have options...I'd probably run 1x10 / 11 for local riding, but put a double up front for the times I ride up north.

    Besides, I'm pretty sure we'll see other cassette gear combos, sooner than later. Especially since XTR has split into Trail- and Race-oriented niches.

    Actually, it's been good---both for the buying public as well as for Shimano's attitude---to have SRAM give them so much grief, and taking market share. Prior to SRAM's rise, Shimano's take to the public would be, "take it or leave it...we're Shimano, we don't care because we don't have to. Where else are you going to go? SunTour?"

    Since then, they've pulled a 180, and almost give too many options.

    And still, people are kvetching...oy vey!

  46. #296
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    Quote Originally Posted by bog View Post
    Shimano generally isn't one to mess with things like hub spacing. You can be sure it'll be 135QR and 12X142 compatible. They definitely don't mind changing up standards a bit but pretty much always ensure that you can put it on a reasonably new frame.

    Also, I'm a huge fan of Shimano and Di2 so I'm looking forward to seeing more of this. I'd use this on my XC bike which has a double or triple crank depending on the ride (1X11 just doesn't have enough of a gear range) and I really like that Shimano has gone with a 30T option for a chainring. Absolutely perfect IMO!

    I was referring to and meant to say the flange spacing of a wider 142mm hub could be used to keep a relatively stiff wheel build. Unlike the Shimano road version that went from a 130mm hub to a 131mm. Here they really leave a very very narrow margin for getting an acceptable tension difference between the drive and non-drive sides.

    I'm basically a Shimano fan as well, but they seem to be a bit obtuse in their interpretation of what riders are actually using and wanting. I hope, as the details trickle out that they demonstrate me to be wrong. Shimano's history has not shown this to be true though.

  47. #297
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    Shimano's answer to SRAM's 1x11

    Quote Originally Posted by WR304 View Post
    With the front derailleur I'm wondering how many different versions there will be. Over the last few years mountain bikes have come with so many different front derailleur mounts that you'd need several designs of electronic front derailleur to fit them all. It might be that compatibility is limited to a few select bikes?
    To answer my own question there are two XTR Di2 front derailleurs (double and triple versions) which use a modular design and a series of adapters for High clamp, Low clamp band fittings, plus also D type and E type direct mount fittings.

    The other interesting thing on the slides is

    New Shimano Synchronised Shift
    "System communication with rear derailleur"

    SC-9050 System Information Display
    Shimano Synchronised Shift Mode Switch

    "3 shift modes available (S1/S2/Manual)

    Sus mode position indicator(Climb/Trail/Descend)"

    What that sounds like is that the Shimano XTR Di2 system when used with a front derailleur may have the seqential shifting that was on a Fairwheel bikes showbike several years ago. The idea being that you press the shifter and the system decides when to change chainrings for you.

    http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/...ipped-hardtail

    The Fox iCD electronic suspension system uses a Shimano battery and wiring already so it's not a great surprise that the two will integrate together.

    http://www.pinkbike.com/news/Fox-iCD...n-Earnest.html

    The next question is what about with the Rock Shox EI suspension system that comes on bikes such as the Lapierre range. Will they need two seperate batteries and wiring if you want XTR Di2 on a bike with Rock Shox EI? Rock Shox is owned by SRAM so they might not integrate.

  48. #298
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    Any detail about needing a new freehub? The final nail in the coffin for me on XX1 was my 6 month old wheel not being able to run a Sram XD driver body.

  49. #299
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    The description says 10/11 speed compatible free hub body. It could be the same as the neww 11 speed road hubs

  50. #300
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    Shimano's answer to SRAM's 1x11

    Quote Originally Posted by RS VR6 View Post
    Any detail about needing a new freehub? The final nail in the coffin for me on XX1 was my 6 month old wheel not being able to run a Sram XD driver body.
    On the slide for the FH-M9000 and FH-M9010 rear hubs it says:

    "11/10 speed compatible freehub body"

    The XTR cassette only has a 11 tooth smallest sprocket, which is the same as current cassettes. (One of the reasons why SRAM XX1 needed a new freehub body was because a 10 tooth smallest sprocket won't fit onto a standard freehub.) From the description and pictures it looks like the 11 speed XTR freehub will be the same as for Shimano 11 speed road hubs and cassettes.

    That will mean buying a new 11 speed freehub body but on the positive side plenty of current hubs (including DT Swiss and Chris King) should be backwards compatible, just needing a new freehub body and drive side end cap:

    http://fairwheelbikes.com/c/forums/t...mano-11-speed/

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